[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12358

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: puppy
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: puppy
From: Chia

2a. Re: Cost of feeding raw, averaged?
From: costrowski75
2b. Cost of feeding raw, averaged?
From: h h

3a. HELP Eating Dead Pigeon
From: cynthia iparraguirre
3b. Re: HELP Eating Dead Pigeon
From: Casey Post
3c. Re: HELP Eating Dead Pigeon
From: cynthia iparraguirre

4a. Re: Encouraging words requested.
From: nativegardensnursery

5a. Graet Dane pups (raw fed) need a home
From: Eva Finlan
5b. Re: Graet Dane pups (raw fed) need a home
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Graet Dane pups (raw fed) need a home
From: Mary Tinder

6a. Re: Prairie Dogs
From: Moon Creek Arabians
6b. Re: Prairie Dogs
From: Casey Post

7a. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: Kim Clark

8a. Re: Help my dog is very skinny
From: lukagsd
8b. Re: Help my dog is very skinny
From: aliciamyan

9. Re: Dealing with the head
From: Sai Simonson

10. Re: bones for cats
From: Sai Simonson

11a. Re: Cost of feeding raw
From: Sai Simonson
11b. Re: Cost of feeding raw
From: Michelle R

12. NEW TO RAW FEEDING NEED ANY POINTERS
From: jawstrength101

13. DOES RAW FEEDING MAKE AGGRESIVE DOGS?
From: jawstrength101

14a. diarhea
From: Judy McCammon
14b. Re: diarhea
From: carnesbill

15. Sales on sawzalls
From: Michelle R

Messages
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1a. Re: puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
> And I'll jump in and say that Chris' rawfed, no vax, BC puts the lie
> to ALL the bad traits of BCs, even the ones humans think are good
> traits.
*****
Egad!
Kind words indeed but I doubt any dog can live up to such praise or
would want to. I'm sure as we paddle down the river of life we'll
discover all sorts of holes in our canoe. It is fun while it lasts
though.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: puppy
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:13 am ((PST))

On Dec 8, 2007, at 10:06 PM, costrowski75 wrote:

> Shelly <StuartLittle@...> wrote:
> They are so
>> smart and so OCD!
> *****
> Smart, yes.
> OCD, not necessarily.
> I'd say without hesitation that a healthy mind in a healthy body does
> not produce OCD behaviors.
> Chris O

#### can I pop in here to?.. May I say I see MANY people, whom have BCs,
do the WRONG things by excessive fetching...mindless cardiovascular
exercise,.. etc....WITHOUT the mental stimulation... this creates a VERY
hyper dog with excess adrenalin and nowhere to displace it. People do so
because they want to tire this dog out but it does the opposite! This is a
brilliant animal and like a genius child, requires mental work, not more
physical. It is lazy parenting on the handler's part. Instead of training
the core commands and using them frequently or teaching new activities or
tricks, the excessive fetching treats their energy temporarily. Like having
a toddler and popping a DVD in to get a break. Until one actually 'lives'
with a BC, it is VERY difficult to describe what they are like.

I know it's off topic but wanted to add my two cents since I have a
genius breed myself. Yes, ALL dogs are amazing but there is definitely
something VERY unique and intense about a Border Collie.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: Cost of feeding raw, averaged?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:14 am ((PST))

"crzycoookies" <crzycoookies@...> wrote:
>There is just one dilemma for me. I'm too young to get
> a job, and I provide for my dog on a housechores allowance(I'm sure no
> one wants to hear my life story, but just explaining the situ a bit)..
> I'm a bit worried about how much it'll cost a month to feed raw? My
dog
> is 90 lbs, ideally, and I figured I'd probably be spending a dollar/lb
> on meat, right? So that'd be about $62 a month, give or take a few
> 10s.. Am I hot or cold?
*****
Close enough for government work. How much you can save from that
depends your initiative and some good dumb luck. However, I suspect
that anyone who thinks and writes as well as you do (regardless of age)
should not have too much trouble finding a way to earn $62 a month.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Cost of feeding raw, averaged?
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

I'm a bit worried about how much it'll cost a month to feed raw? My dog
is 90 lbs, ideally, and I figured I'd probably be spending a dollar/lb
on meat, right? So that'd be about $62 a month, give or take a few
10s.. Am I hot or cold?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
One dollar a pound is a fairly easy goal to strive for. However, if you have a freezer and can get in good with your local butcher shop and/or know hunters, you can feed your dog for much less than that. Late last month I bought a 60# case of beef heart for $35 and also picked up probably around 125# of deer scraps for free. This will be the bulk of my critters meals for a couple months. Even with buying other meats for some variety, and also buying offal such as liver, kidney, etc., I should be will be spending well under fifty cents a pound probably until at least mid-February or March.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. HELP Eating Dead Pigeon
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

Guys,
As we speak my Lab is eating a dead pigeon she found in our backyard...my first thought was to remove the pigeon outta her mouth, but then my city-slicker mentality broke in & I thought GROSS!! There was no way I was gonna touch a dead bird w/my bare hands!

Anywho, should I be worried? It's 6:30 in the morning so there are no birds in flight yet, so I know she did not "hunt" it down, so I am assuming it died outta disease? Are there any diseases that city pigeons carry, or oh my freaking out for nothing?

Cyn


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Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: HELP Eating Dead Pigeon
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))

My only concern would by why the pigeon died (since some people poison
pigeons).

Disease wouldn't be a huge concern for me, but keep an eye on her for a day
or two just to be on the safe side. If you see more dead pigeons or other
dead birds in the area today, that would be enough for me to report the
pigeon eating/dead birds to my vet and see what she thinks about it.

But if it's just one dead bird and one happy dog, everything's probably
fine.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: HELP Eating Dead Pigeon
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

at first I was totally grossed out, but then I stood out there, watched & took pictures....I think it may have been a baby pigeon that fell off its nest because as Abby ate away a much bigger bird flew into our backyard & attempted in lifting the dead bird off the grass.

Cyn

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Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Encouraging words requested.
Posted by: "nativegardensnursery" clebsch@earthlink.net nativegardensnursery
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

Mary. I hope you are well on your way to having those little beasties
in the freezer by now. As one who became a vegetarian (short lived
70s thing) while getting an Animal Science degree, and hence fell in
love with dairy goats, I had to learn to appreciate the possibilities
of a dead animal from a few perspectives. To me, it's all biology -
once the head is gone anyway.

But I too had to revisit those emotions, but in a very comfortable
way, just this past week. My buddy the Wildlife Officer brought me a
pristine roadkilled deer. It was 4:00, I was here by myself,and if I
didn't deal with it the coyotes, etc., would have it by morning. I'd
never butchered anything that large on my own and not in a long time,
but knew that I knew all the parts and it was just that first cut I
had to get beyond. And I did and had the poor thing in the freezer
before dark, about an hour.

The best part was that the dogs (and cats) were there there to help.
I gave the head to my GSD/lab and she knew what to do (has been on raw
a few months). I was working on a perforated nursery wagon and my
brand new 8wk old yellow lab was underneath licking up the blood. She
was covered in blood! My breeder does not approve of the RAW diet but
I so wanted him to see his little predator. Only gave her a little
though since she'd only had chicken since I got her.

BTW, I used a SawzAll to cut thru the large bones and it was like
cutting melted butter.

So...I hope you find your way past the head and into to FOOD. It is
the cycle of life if we choose to own a predator.

Meredith, Kiddo and now Buttermilk Biscuit too!

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Graet Dane pups (raw fed) need a home
Posted by: "Eva Finlan" efinlan@comcast.net hddanes
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

Hi All,
I have 2 three month old Great Dane pups (Brothers) in our rescue who
are being naturaly reared and are looking for a home. If you are
interested or know someone who is please contact me. Thank you.
Eva Finlan
All About Them giant breed Rescue

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Graet Dane pups (raw fed) need a home
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SEND ALL INQUIRIES DIRECTLY TO THE ORIGINAL
POSTER.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Eva Finlan" <efinlan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I have 2 three month old Great Dane pups (Brothers) in our rescue who
> are being naturaly reared and are looking for a home. If you are
> interested or know someone who is please contact me. Thank you.
> Eva Finlan
> All About Them giant breed Rescue
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Graet Dane pups (raw fed) need a home
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

Where are they?
Mary T

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Prairie Dogs
Posted by: "Moon Creek Arabians" lephillips@rangeweb.net phillips.erika
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

Anyone know anything negative about feeding Prairie dogs to dogs? We are over run with them and I use them for target practice but have not fed them. I suppose they would be similar to rabbit and/or squirrel??

Erika P
----- Original Message -----
From: mozookpr
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Fish and Game

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vanevery0" <bvanevery@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gbongi1" <gbongi1@> wrote:
> >
> > Also about fish.
> > I catch White and yellow perch, tog, blues, and striper.
> > Can I feed my dog these items whole?
>
> Know the pollution levels of the rivers / lakes you fish in.
> Generally you can look these up at governmental fishing websites.

I was thinking of this, too. Environmental pollutants would be my
greatest concern with freshwater fish. If I would not eat fish from
a given body of water, I would not feed it to an animal, either.
Heavy metals can, of course, be a concern with ocean fish, as well,
but many ponds, lakes and rivers are unsafe due to agricultural run-
off -- pesticides, weed killers, and such.

Wendy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Prairie Dogs
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

> Anyone know anything negative about feeding Prairie dogs to dogs? We are
> over run with them and I use them for target practice but have not fed
> them. I suppose they would be similar to rabbit and/or squirrel??

I'd feed them. After a freezing period first, of course...

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "Kim Clark" kimmieclark@netzero.com howdryiam50
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

> Hi Everyone... I'm a newbie with a question........

Hi Dawn, this happened to my dog this summer. He had "hot spots" were
the fur was gone and the area was raw, so I got online and found out
what I think was mange (mites), apparently every mammal has mange on
their skin it's just that when the body gets run down for whatever
reason that the mite (which causes mange) multiplies and takes over.
Rustee didn't really have very much itching, however, it looked like
it should. What I read was you had to calm the mites down by getting
your dog in better condition, by feeding it more protein and by
killing the mites in the hot spot areas by using malathion. You mix a
little with vasoline and put on with a cotton ball. I couldn't belive
it. But I was desperate, Rustee is a Cattle Dog and they can't have
what the vet will give you for it, something about their genetic
makeup.

Kimmie

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: Help my dog is very skinny
Posted by: "lukagsd" lukagsd@yahoo.com lukagsd
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Thanx for your reply. How much beef heart did you feed? Do I just
give him the heart and drums - or keep offering everything else. I
have to throw away alot of uneaten food. I have added more salmon
oil - but he doesnt always eat it. So frustrating... thanx Chrisa
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Erika <Erika@...> wrote:
>
> My 17 mos old gsd has been on raw since he was born. He is very
skinny
>
> My skinny boy with a similar situation started gaining weight
recently since I made the RAW switch. He seems to gain and eat the
most with the beef heart. I give him the fattier portions when
spliting them up. I feed him a bit more than 3% of his ideal weight
at the moment which is about 4lbs a day! Eventually I'll cut him back
but like your boy he was looking pretty bad but had no parasites or
other ditectable problem. He was at about the same age 17 months when
he started the skinny stage now he is 23 months old and I am finally
seeing some weight gain.Hopefully it is a growth spurt coupled with a
finikey eating stage. If he likes Salmon Oil you can add more of it
to his food to help keep some weight on him and encourage him to eat
more as well.
>
> Good luck,
> Erika
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Help my dog is very skinny
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 9:13 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lukagsd" <lukagsd@...> wrote:
>
> My 17 mos old gsd has been on raw since he was born. He is very
skinny hip bones and spine are easily seen.

That could be my GSD boy too. He is now 3 and has been on raw for
only 3 months. He's always been thin and we had a pretty serious
setback that didn't help (torsion surgery ealier this year - which
led me to research other diet options). He's finally gaining weight
and doesn't look like a prehistoric creature anymore. But, his
spine, ribs and hip bones can still be seen and felt easily. I feed
between 3 and 4% of what I think his ideal weight should be someday
(100lbs? = 3 to 4 lbs/day). It seems as soon as he puts any little
bit of fat on his front ribs, it quickly disperses to muscle. He is
finally putting on some width in his chest/shoulders and back. It
doesn't help he is EXTREMELY active. His mother is also a lean,
lanky german, so I assume he takes after her. Beef is his favorite -
heart and tongue - the more I feed these the more I can see a
positive change. I think if it weren't for the competition between
our two dogs, the GSD wouldn't eat nearly as well - especially
chicken - not a favorite. I've also found exercising him before
feeding calms him down and gets him hungry so he can focus on eating.

Best wishes,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (4)
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9. Re: Dealing with the head
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Casey,

Reminds me of when I was student teaching back in 1966. One of my
students brought me a deer head to dissect. I took it home to my
apartment and placed it on several layers of newspaper in the communal
laundry room. I was happily removing the ears so it would not look cute
when two old ladies came in and left immediately in horror. My
daughter, then 6 came home from school, took one look and said she would
be spending the night at a friend's house. Eventually I sawed through
the skull and removed the eyes and brain to bring to class the following
day.

Sai
==========================================

Have had to use it myself on occasion. Helps if you just cover the eyes
with a paper towel or something so it's not "looking at you"...

Casey

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (1)
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10. Re: bones for cats
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Keikokat would demolish a chicken neck in a couple of minutes. He
aways ate raw, even after losing many teeth.....Siamese.

Sai

========================================================

Cool. Don't skip it. Cat's teeth are designed NOT to get bones
caught in them. On the rare times that a bone gets stuck, it is
nothing more than a freak accident. Chances are very high that it
will never happen to your cat again. Feed bones to your cat. I
assume you don't stop driving a car just bacause you have one fender-
bender. Don't stop feeding bones to your cat just because he has
one freak accident. Bones are a necessary part of the diet. Cats
have been eating them for millions of years. Don't fight evolution.
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Cost of feeding raw
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Dear crazycookies,

I am spending a small fortune on my two Russian Wolfhounds, but I do not
care. I shall eat less. :-)
In fact $62/week is more like it.

Sai

Righteo, I've almost completely made the decision to go raw with my 1
yr old lab/GSD.. There is just one dilemma for me. I'm too young to get
a job, and I provide for my dog on a housechores allowance(I'
m sure no
one wants to hear my life story, but just explaining the situ a bit)..
I'm a bit worried about how much it'll cost a month to feed raw? My dog
is 90 lbs, ideally, and I figured I'd probably be spending a dollar/lb
on meat, right? So that'd be about $62 a month, give or take a few
10s.. Am I hot or cold?
--

Messages in this topic (7)
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11b. Re: Cost of feeding raw
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

Actually, I would think 90# would be real heavy for a lab mix..even a lab/GSD mix. Since I have not seen your dog in person, I cant say for sure, but I would guesstimate closer to 75# would be a healthier estimate, but again, I havent seen the bone/type on your dog. If you live in a rural area and can make friends with some hunters, get, or save up and get a deep freeze, it would allow you to stock up on free or real cheap items from the hunters kills, etc . Also, you can speak with local slaughterhouse or meat processing places....get them to save you things they dont use, or things folks dont pick up. There are LOTS of ways to get by cheaply. Its not always possible..but I am currently feeding 14 dogs and 2 cats on the raw diet. I get all the venison for free (THANK YOU to all the hunters I know), and I get chicken (whole fryers, or roasters) for .82 cents/pound and I can feed 4 dogs with a single fryer of about 2 pounds,(all but one of my dogs are
little) so thats about .41 cents per dog/per day but only on a chicken day. Doesnt cost anything on red meat days and Ive got a friend who arranged for us to get hearts, kidneys, livers, pancreas etc, all for free from a meat processing place. So red meat, and organs ..all free... Also check local small meat markets for sales and weekly specials. I know around here right after thanksgiving, turkeys were running 49 to 59 cents a pound....thats super cheap.
BUT, the very best thing you can do, is get your folks on board, share all the information with them. Make sure you are informed and can answer their questions intelligently. Show how this is a responsible choice, which is better for the dog in EVERY way. Its better for them, if they end up paying for vet bills, teeth cleaning etc, if the dog is fed a species INappropriate diet such as any of the kibble dog foods. Check out the resource links on the groups home page, have them look over the links with you. Chances are, it will be a wonderful quality time spent doing something which may both bond the family closer and helps make intelligent and responsible choices for the pets in your life now and in the furture.
Youve already taken a very responsible first step in joining this group and doing your "homework" on proper diet/nutrition for your dog. Good job!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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12. NEW TO RAW FEEDING NEED ANY POINTERS
Posted by: "jawstrength101" jawstrength101@yahoo.com jawstrength101
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:03 am ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign your emails, and pls don't write in all capital letters - that's considered shouting. In addition, check out the archives and files sent to you already. This information has already been provided. with thanks. +++++++++++++++

I AM ABOUT TO START RAW FEEDING MY YARD. I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GETTING
A FRIDGE AND I HAVE AN ALMOST STEADY SUPPLIE OF ORGANMEAT AND DEER
BONES. IS THEIR ANY POINTERS ANYONE GIVE ME??? IS IT OK TO MIX HALF THE
WEEK DOG FOOD THE OTHER HALF RAW MEATY BONES (RMB)??? LIKE I SAID I
NEED TO KNOW THE MAJOR DO'S AND DONT'S THANK YOU

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13. DOES RAW FEEDING MAKE AGGRESIVE DOGS?
Posted by: "jawstrength101" jawstrength101@yahoo.com jawstrength101
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign your emails, and pls don't write in all capital letters - that's considered shouting. In addition, check out the archives and files sent to you already. This information has already been provided. with thanks. +++++++++++++++

DOES THE RAW MEAT MAKE FOR A MEAN DOG(OR MORE AGGRESSIVE) OR IS IT
STILL IN HOW U RAISE THEM.

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. diarhea
Posted by: "Judy McCammon" fenstokebullmastiffs@yahoo.com fenstokebullmastiffs
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

have 7 week old pup with diarrhea. He is healthy in all ways, vaccine free only had kibble for 5 days before I got him
Clear eyes and nose, not dehydrated and very full of puppy energy. Been with me for a week and thought perhaps it was just adjustment. recommendations: pumpkin or just let him work it out.



Regards,

Judy

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14b. Re: diarhea
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Judy McCammon
<fenstokebullmastiffs@...> wrote:
>
> have 7 week old pup with diarrhea.

The main causes of diarrhea ...
1. Too large of meals ... puppies need small frequent meals
2. Organs too early in the diet.
3. Too much fat in the diet too early.
4. Not enough bone in the diet.

Exactly what are you feeding him?

Is it truly diarrhea or just soft stools? Diarrhea is water.
Diarrhea (water stools) can be a sign of very serious illness in
young puppies particularly if vomiting is also present.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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15. Sales on sawzalls
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

Just found this sale on a popular item for us raw folks....esp those lucky enough to be getting the whole animal recently.
Milwaukee Sawzalls are on sale!

heres the link
http://www.tylertool.com/misa.html

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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