[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12365

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Okay, Wow!
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
From: sisterloui
2b. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
From: Chia
2c. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
From: costrowski75

3a. Chi new to raw - status
From: Kelly
3b. Re: Chi new to raw - status
From: ada
3c. Re: Chi new to raw - status
From: costrowski75

4a. feeder wildlife
From: h h

5a. Fiber Question
From: Kevin Brown
5b. Re: Fiber Question
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: The Heart of the Matter
From: carnesbill

7. Eastern WA - RAW Feeders
From: Maggie Smith

8a. Re: not working yet
From: sheila
8b. Re: not working yet
From: Tina Berry
8c. Re: not working yet - OT -- Sorry!
From: marblekallie
8d. Re: not working yet
From: ginny wilken

9a. Re: veal sweetbreads...
From: woofwoofgrrl
9b. Re: veal sweetbreads...
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: veal sweetbreads...
From: ginny wilken

10a. Re: New & I did it!
From: Karen Ditton
10b. Re: New & I did it!
From: Karen Ditton

11a. Re: Having trouble eating RMBs
From: delcaste
11b. Re: Having trouble eating RMBs
From: delcaste

12a. 1st raw meal
From: hoelpl
12b. Re: 1st raw meal
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
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1a. Re: Okay, Wow!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:54 pm ((PST))

Yeah, all of us were kind of wobbly when we first started, but I assure
you that it gets easier as you go along. It's hard to know if you are
feeding too much food at first unless you have consistently loose
stools. Otherwise you just have to keep an eye on the dog to see if
they are getting too pudgy. It isn't always helpful to watch the scale
because many dogs convert fat to muscle and put on pounds while
actually getting leaner. Just keep an eye on how they look and adjust
food from there. With so many dogs you're doing great!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@...> wrote:

> Now I have a week to prepare to make more changes. Please tell me
> more confidence will come!!!!

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm ((PST))

Ah the problem with liver!

My labrador will eat every bone, bit of offal or scrap except liver.

He plays and throws it about for hours !!

After finding my white kitchen and ceiling liberally decorated with
liver scraps I decided just to pass on the liver in future (grin)

Best wishes,
Jane

PS Thanks for all the info about spaniels, i have switched her over to
raw foods today and for the first time she seemed to ejoy her dinner.
Many thanks folks

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:42 pm ((PST))

After finding my white kitchen and ceiling liberally decorated with
liver scraps I decided just to pass on the liver in future (grin)

### nice thought, but liver is one of those 'essential' eating items...
you'll figure it out..most of us have figured out how to get liver into
them.....it isn't an optional feed, like tripe or kidney, this is the big
leagues of the nutritional powerhouse for our little 'Wolves".

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:26 pm ((PST))

"sisterloui" <habershon@...> wrote:>
> Ah the problem with liver!
*****
Not every dog has a problem with liver. Not every dog has a problem
with all liver.

After finding my white kitchen and ceiling liberally decorated with
> liver scraps I decided just to pass on the liver in future (grin)
*****
I don't think it's an especially sensible answer to simply give up on
liver. You needn't feed much of it but you gotta feed some of it. 3%-
5% of the menu over time is not a large amount. It is an essential
body part.

Whatever liver you tried and failed with, try something else. Beef,
turkey, chicken, pork, lamb, venison, goat--all got livers.

Whatever presentation you tried and failed with, try something else.
Frozen, semi-frozen, seared, dried, ground up and mixed with meat,
slivered, sliced, cubed--there is some combination of species and
presentation that will work.

And don't do trial runs in your kitchen.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Chi new to raw - status
Posted by: "Kelly" kpetska@mgmmirage.com kpet1218
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone,

Just an update on Yoshi - 3 lb male 1y/o Chi

We started raw last Tuesday and by Friday night he was finally working
with this front teeth and using his front paws to hold and pull the
meat off the bones (chicken thighs, legs, wings). Yay!

Right now, he gets 1.5 oz of just meat in the morning and then a meaty
bone in the evening. I don't weigh that, just let him eat till he's
done. I throw in a piece of heart here and there. So far, no loose
stools.

When is the nasty kibble breath going to go away? I can definitely see
the chicken tendons "flossing" his teeth when he's pulling away at a
bone. I also need to give him liver at some point right?

Thanks,
Kelly Petska

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Chi new to raw - status
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:29 pm ((PST))

--- Kelly <kpetska@mgmmirage.com> wrote:
> When is the nasty kibble breath going to go away? I
> can definitely see
> the chicken tendons "flossing" his teeth when he's
> pulling away at a
> bone. I also need to give him liver at some point
> right?

Thanks for the update Kelly,

I love to hear success stories! Yaaaay for Yoshi.
He's definitely ahead of mine in the mechanics of this
RAW eating. Mine are staunch supporters of the
no-RAW-on-my-paws approach :).

Give his teeth/doggy breath a bit longer. He's still
detoxing from the k***le, too.

Yes, include a bit of liver; but be judicious re
amount. Too much liver = cannon bum.

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Chi new to raw - status
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

"Kelly" <kpetska@...> wrote:
> When is the nasty kibble breath going to go away?
*****
If it's mouth smell, it should be gone or be very close to being gone
unless there are bad teeth in there. The kibble effect goes away right
quick. Bad teeth smell won't go away until the bad teeth are gone.

If it's digestion smell, that will diminish with time on the job
although a bigger/fattier meal than usual may produce a temporary
digestion aroma.

I also need to give him liver at some point right?
*****
Yeah, but you don't need to rush things if you aren't comfortable yet.
I start adding bits of liver almost immediately; perhaps because of
that, liver has never been a significant issue with my dogs or cats.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. feeder wildlife
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm ((PST))

I am a wildlife rehabber with a state and federally lisenced agency and can just consult my list... but, off the top of my head raccoons were mentioned recently, that scares the stuff outta me, cuz they are a rabies vector species..no way in heck would I feed that to my kids, anymore than Id eat it myself..course. ..I AM a vegetarian, LOL

~~~~~~~~~~
Not that I feed raccoon to my dogs and cats (and I definitely wouldn't be feeding raccoon to baby goats <g>), but I wouldn't worry much about a dog getting rabies from being fed raccoon meat. The virus doesn't survive very long outside a living host so all one would have to do is wait a couple of days before feeding the raccoon to the dog...and I am pretty sure that most people here freeze wild game and/or roadkill for a few weeks before feeding anyhow.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Fiber Question
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm ((PST))

Hi, everyone.

My raw feed experience has been great with both my girls. The younger
turned 6 months today, the older is 4 weeks to the day older.

They love their raw. One is a grazer, and the other a glutton. It has
been fun helping the grazer get her portion, as the glutton knows all
her hiding spots.

I am looking for some suggestions on fiber and the calculated % of
daily fiber best for large breed dogs.

Thanks

KEVIN BROWN
GuardiansByTheSea.com
HOME OF BABY INDEPENDENCE & DAWN EDGE CURIOUS GEOGEANNE
The Jersey Shore

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Fiber Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:33 pm ((PST))

"Kevin Brown" <jerseykev@...> wrote:
> I am looking for some suggestions on fiber and the calculated % of
> daily fiber best for large breed dogs.
*****
Hi, Kevin.

"Fiber" for rawfed dogs is bone. Well, bone and connective tissue.
There is no place for vegetable fiber if that's what you mean. If you
are feeding 10%-15% or so edible bone, you are already feeding
appropriate fiber.

Some dogs "do better" with more edible bone, some dogs "do better" with
less bone. So you will have to adjust dietary bone for each dog, and
as the menu changes and your dogs mature, the adjusting will continue.
But that's it. No other fiber required.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: The Heart of the Matter
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krystal_brr" <rkbarr@...> wrote:
>
> I am a little confused about heart.

Heart IS a muscle meat but it's a very rich muscle meat. I suggest
feeding small amounts of heart with a meal and gradually adding more
heart and less other meat if you want to feed whole meals of heart. I
never have. I always just give heart as an addition to a regular
meal. Others feed whole meals.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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7. Eastern WA - RAW Feeders
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm ((PST))

Hi All,

I am currently living in Seattle and most likely moving to Spokane area
in the next few months - where do you get your raw from? Prices?

I am pretty happy with Plymouth in Seattle and the stuff from
wazzuorbarf, but don't know what my options will be for the new area.

Feeding 3 Great Danes, approximately 6-8 pounds a day, give or take.

Thanks!
Maggie, Rufus, Oliver and Mickey

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: not working yet
Posted by: "sheila" schatzee@comporium.net osborne_sheila
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:05 pm ((PST))

I have antibiotics which i try not to use, prednisone if it's really bad, and i've used many ear cleaners one being was otomax. sheila
----- Original Message -----
From: Tina Berry
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] not working yet

"Ears are still inflamed and black gunk in one of her ears. Any
suggestions?"

It's going to take up to 90 days to see the end results. What does the vet
say about his ears? and what do you use to keep them clean?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared

www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: not working yet
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:29 pm ((PST))

http://www.botanicaldog.com/proddetail.php?prod=ACT0003
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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8c. Re: not working yet - OT -- Sorry!
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:52 pm ((PST))

Hi:

Yes, I know this should be in Raw Chat, but I had to relay my
experience with a bad ear infection. I had a horrible problem with
a left ear on one of my Dachshunds. She was treated with
homeopathy, but to no avail, though her temper improved. But, poor
dog, the ear never really cleared up.

Fast forward to this year. I took her over to her breeder, who
cleaned out the ear with cotton, then hydrogen peroxide, then put in
something called Otopet Terapia (Italian product) which was both an
anti-fungal and antibiotic for the ear. He did it two days in a row
and the ear was completely cleared up. This was in late June and
the ear is still clear. All the soreness and redness went away
along with the infection.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sheila" <schatzee@...> wrote:
>
> I have antibiotics which i try not to use, prednisone if it's
really bad, and i've used many ear cleaners one being was otomax.

Messages in this topic (7)
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8d. Re: not working yet
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

On Dec 11, 2007, at 2:42 PM, sheila wrote:

> I have antibiotics which i try not to use, prednisone if it's
> really bad, and i've used many ear cleaners one being was otomax.
> sheila

If you take this to Rawchat, we can advise a better course of action.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: veal sweetbreads...
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:30 pm ((PST))

So Chris, is $7.99/lb a horribly high price for thymus or pancreas or
should I pick it up since it's the first and only time I've seen it?

Christine
>
> costrowski75 wrote:
>>
>>
>> "borodeauxs" <Borodeauxs@...> wrote:
>> Sweetbread is the testicles of an animal,..
>> *****
>> I don't think so. I think we've pretty much covered the possibilities:
>> pancreas and/or thymus. If you've got references that support your
>> claim, please feel free to post them.
>>
>> Chris O
>>
>>
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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9b. Re: veal sweetbreads...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:22 pm ((PST))

woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@...> wrote:>
> So Chris, is $7.99/lb a horribly high price for thymus or pancreas or
> should I pick it up since it's the first and only time I've seen it?
*****
IMO unless you are buying it for a humdinger of a meal for humans, it's
a too horribly high price. OTOH, if you want to get the curiosity out
of your system, just do it and chalk it up to learning curve.

I myself would not pay that price. For $7.99/lb I'm sure I can buy
some manner of whole prey and get lots more than a gland.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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9c. Re: veal sweetbreads...
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:52 pm ((PST))

On Dec 11, 2007, at 4:29 PM, woofwoofgrrl wrote:

> So Chris, is $7.99/lb a horribly high price for thymus or pancreas or
> should I pick it up since it's the first and only time I've seen it?
>
> Christine

About right for human-grade thymus-type. Way too high for pancreas,
and not the same at all, in my mind. And not essential. I'd feed
pancreas if it came up occasionally, but wouldn't hunt it down
unless, perhaps, I had an EPI dog. Incidentally, Greentripe.com has
it for $1.85/lb. ground and frozen.

No way some dog is gonna get ahold of sweetbreads when I'm in the
vicinity:) Pass the sherry!

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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10a. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

Michelle wrote:

>>Good luck, and don't be afraid to switch the puppy.

Thanks for the encouragement! It is a bit unnerving at first!

Karen

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:52 pm ((PST))

Andrea wrote:

>>Too much food at once can often cause loose stools

Well... we've had our first stool. It wasn't loose at all.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=7423526/grpspId=1707421080/msgId
=148756/stime=1197395458/nc1=5028924/nc2=4834088/nc3=4840958> It did have
a lighter color than usual, maybe a bit yellowish, and was a bit crumbly.

So... does that mean anything that I should be aware of? Or is that within
the normal range? (OK... I'm discussing my dogs poop! Worst still I went
out with a flashlight to look at it! Please don't tell any of the PTA
moms!)

I went ahead and fed the puppy chicken tonight too. He licked it for a
while and you could tell he really liked it, but wasn't sure what to do with
it. Pretty soon he started managing to get pieces off and we heard little
crunching sounds. He worked at it for quite a while and ate most of what I
gave him. At the end he was obviously full. He's now sound asleep... a
very content baby with a full tummy! :-)

Thanks for all the support!!! I'm as nervous as a first time mom!

Karen

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11a. Re: Having trouble eating RMBs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> How long has he been eating raw? It's possible he just needs to
work
> up his jaw strength. I'd feed him something easy like ribboned
chicken
> breast or pork roast. Stashing the food in the freezer for a short
> time might not be a bad idea either since it would firm up the meat
a
> bit.

He's been eating raw since late March so he should be accustomed to
it, right?

Lots of dogs refuse to touch their food with their paws. If gravity
gets it done for him that's ok.

It makes me laugh to see him giving it these funky little shakes...oh
well.

> What kind of foods and size of foods are you feeding? Does he
crunch
> through bones ok or are those a problem as well?

Chunkie can eat his portion of ribboned meat ok and he can crunch
through bones. I'll try feeding him meat partially frozen...Thanks
Andrea.

Silvina

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11b. Re: Having trouble eating RMBs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

For things like lamb or pork, I have to feed them half
> frozen, then she does okay. If I feed them thawed, she chews and
chews
> but just kind of mushes the meat. With chicken, I have to remove most
> of the skin. Otherwise, she's doing great and loves her raw food.
j

I'll try the partially frozen and see how he does. He loves his raw
food. He's a pug and his eyes look like they'll pop out of his head
when he sees the raw stuff. This gumming is getting to me though, lol.
Thanks for the tip.

Silvina

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12a. 1st raw meal
Posted by: "hoelpl" hoelpl@peoplepc.com hoelpl
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

For a while I have been giving Syd some raw bones (beef rib and
vertebra that had little meat on them), for teeth cleaning, and
entertainment. Tonight I gave her a raw turkey neck. After staring
at it for 10 min, sniffing and licking it for another 5, the munching
began! She is ruff-ly 55lbs, so about 1.5 lbs a day, right?

Now, I have a problem.

We will be traveling to mom's for the holidays, and she (and
especially brother) are not ok with Raw. Is it ok to switch her to
kibble while we are there and back to raw when we come home? We go up
about once a month for a weekend, so this switch would happen
repeatedly. I know it is not ideal, but is it ok?

Holly

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: 1st raw meal
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:46 pm ((PST))

> Tonight I gave her a raw turkey neck. She is ruff-ly 55lbs, so about 1.5 lbs a day, right?

Hi. Turkey Neck is not as bony as chicken wing or chicken neck or ribs,but it still is bony side.If you fed 1.5lb of Neck only,the dogs would have poo prob;constipation maybe.

if you feed Turkey neck, add boneless meat to it so that dog meal is mostly meat and bit of bone.

I suggest, buy a whole Turkey and cut to portion and,feed through it until you see your dog digesting good on Turkey meal.

If 55lb were ideal adult weight,then,yes,if you go to 2% guideline,you been feeding about 1lb,if you go to 3% guideline,roughly 1.5lb. yes.

Since your dog is newbie dog,maybe feed twice a day by deviding the amount like half lb per meal or so and then,try ,moving to larger amount one meal,smaller meal the other andas end,you feed once aday maybe way to go to avoid upset tummy prob.

Raw meat is new food to dog,so,baby step would be good.

>We will be traveling to mom's for the holidays,

Me too. and,it will be looong drive from here;12hrs by car!! to IN!!

Since thisyear is first rawfeeding year,I had to ask mother in law for freezer space but she said she has room for palette in freezer,lol(I know she was joking).

so,I will see how it goes.

> she (and especially brother) are not ok with Raw. Is it ok to switch her to
kibble while we are there and back to raw when we come home? We go up
about once a month for a weekend, so this switch would happen repeatedly.

I think that if you do back and forth once a month like that between kibble and raw food,I am imagining that your dog may have upset tummy problems.

Maybe you can talk to them why they don't like them or not ok with this feeding. IF they don't like to see the dog eating,then,you can feed outside maybe or somewhere they are not being able to see the dog,and if they did not like to touch the meal,you can tell them you can feed all the time.

My husband thinks rawfeeding is dog's natural feeding and agree to this feeding but,he does not want to touch it,so,I always feed and touch meat.He is ok and even enjoy watching her eating though.Just touching meat was not his thing.

If you talk to them,you maybe find way for solution?

If you find "why" they are not ok with that, you can solve problem easier,I think.

If they are not ok with bonefor dogs,then,you can talk about cook bone are no no but raw bone are ok etc.

yassy

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