[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12364

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. How much salmon oil?
From: j2dope17
1b. Re: How much salmon oil?
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: How much salmon oil?
From: j2dope17
1d. Re: How much salmon oil?
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: How much salmon oil?
From: Tina Berry
1f. Scratching
From: Jessica MacMillan
1g. Re: How much salmon oil?
From: adkjoe17

2. Rabbit in NE Ohio
From: msgadabout

3a. Re: Leg quarters question
From: ychinook

4a. Sweetbreads,
From: Viento Pampero

5a. Re: Having trouble eating RMBs
From: Andrea

6a. Re: veal sweetbreads...
From: costrowski75

7a. New & I did it!
From: karenditton
7b. Re: New & I did it!
From: Andrea
7c. Re: New & I did it!
From: mmc2315

8a. not working yet
From: sheila
8b. Re: not working yet
From: cynthia iparraguirre
8c. Re: not working yet
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Question on RMB
From: jaygaughan

10. Okay, Wow!
From: Irene Clark

11.1. New to raw
From: Sam Thurlow

12a. Organs to New Raw Eaters
From: Barbara
12b. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
From: Chia

13a. The Heart of the Matter
From: krystal_brr
13b. Re: The Heart of the Matter
From: Andrea

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. How much salmon oil?
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:43 am ((PST))

Siberian husky 12 weeks old about 15 lb. How often should I be giving
her grizzly salmon oil? Once a day? every meal? once a week? Thanks!

Joe

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: How much salmon oil?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:39 am ((PST))

"j2dope17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>
> Siberian husky 12 weeks old about 15 lb. How often should I be
giving
> her grizzly salmon oil? Once a day? every meal? once a week?
*****
I don't think you have to be giving any at all for now. If you feel
her diet is signficantly lacking or if she has health issues, you might
give her a small dose every day.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: How much salmon oil?
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:09 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

I don't think you have to be giving any at all for now. If you feel
> her diet is signficantly lacking or if she has health issues, you
might
> give her a small dose every day.
> Chris O

Thanks Chris I appreciate it. Why would you say you don't think she
wouldn't need any now? because of her age or? I read a lot about
people adding salmon oil to the diet but really what are the
benefits? Is it only used for health problems or is it something
older dogs need more than puppies? I'm just curious if it is
something that I should be adding to her diet or not. If it's not
something she needs than thats great because I would rather not have
to give her any but it seems a lot of people use it and I didn't
know if I was missing something. Thanks!

Joe

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: How much salmon oil?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

"j2dope17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
Why would you say you don't think she
> wouldn't need any now? because of her age or?
****
I don't think it's necessary; others think it's necessary. You get
to choose. Or you can split the difference and give her several
doses a week. Or give some and then don't.

How long has she been eating raw? What have you been feeding her?
How's she doing? Has she been vaccinated? Is there a lot of
unmanaged stress in her life?

Omega 3 supports the immune and nervous system. It contains DHA
which helps developing brains and eyes. It's an anti-inflammatory.
It is naturally available in grassfed meats, free-ranging poultry and
wild marine fish. It's definitely recommended to address certain
health issues and it's also used to improve the status quo.
Supplemental O3 helps reduce the O6 load from grainfed livestock.

It would be my choice to first get the girl eating a variety of foods
well. If you and she are comfortable with her diet and her progress
and you aren't frazzled by the raw experience and you've got time to
find the most effective dose for her, go for it. If you need more
time to sort through some of the nuances of raw, cut yourself some
slack and don't try to do everything at once.

That's the best I can offer.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: How much salmon oil?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:51 am ((PST))

"I would rather not have to give her any but it seems a lot of people use it
and I didn't know if I was missing something."

The only reason I give salmon oil daily is for the shedding. If I didn't
have shedders, I'd probably still give some for skin and coat reasons.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Scratching
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 am ((PST))

Hi All -

Just a quick question. We have been on raw since June and about the same time the humidity dropped, Pepper, my youngster started scratching. I don't think it is the food as we are all itching and have dry skin too. Her coat is beautiful, her ears are clean, etc...

How much fish oil is too much and any other suggestions for alleviating dry skin itch?

Diet consists of chicken carcasses, backs, and parts, venison, beef, pork necks, beef necks, etc... whatever we can find. I also do yogurt a few times a week, liver once a month and whatever else strikes my fancy (and theirs too).. I do cycle through ground veggies occasionally as the dogs like them and I can mix them with misc. ground beef. I do use fish oil every day and egg several times a week.

Any scratch relief would be great...

Jess Mac
Paisley Dals (www.paisleydals.com)
& The Shepherd Girls

_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: How much salmon oil?
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

> The only reason I give salmon oil daily is for the shedding. If I
didn't
> have shedders, I'd probably still give some for skin and coat
reasons.

Thanks for the replies Chris and Tina, I will experiment and figure
out what is right. As of right now I don't think it's very important
she has a good diet and eats grass fed meat etc... I will report back
with an update, thanks again you guys were very helpfull!!

Joe

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. Rabbit in NE Ohio
Posted by: "msgadabout" lowen@neo.rr.com msgadabout
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:43 am ((PST))

I live in NE Ohio and I have a lot of whole rabbit (not dressed, not
skinned or gutted) in the freezer. It used to go to a raptor rehab
center but due to losing their property, they had to close. Freezer is
getting full and I am offering it for $1.00 per pound or $0.75 for ten
pounds or more. I have all sizes, from pinkies to 5 pounders. Email me
off-list for more information at O_Hares_Rabbitry @ yahoo.com (remove
spaces)

Laurie

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Leg quarters question
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:43 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >I got a 600 lb boar they have also been working on,
>
> Wow,that is a lot!I am not sure how much lb of meat in palette's
freezer but 600lb seems very big amount!! Boar is.. a pig,right? How
did you get the boar? From hunter friends?

The boar (intact male pig) was given to me by a local farmer - it was
getting to be too much to handle. I have a 19cuft freezer just for
the dogs, but had to borrow space in a couple fiends freezers as well.
At least a forth was fat I trimmed away and I pick up and dispose of
the larger bones after a day. The older malamute isn't overly fond of
the boar, but my goal is keeping them healthy not spoiled :-)

>
> > Neither dog eats the larger bones of the boar so I throw in
chicken necks.
>
> Are you buying bag of chicken neck ?? if you wanted to give some
bones to their meal,you can give chicken feet,frog leg as well.
>

Necks, wings, whatever I can get. A lot of good deals on turkey parts
after thanksgiving :-) The farmer also gave me a five gal bucket of
chicken feet earlier this fall, but they are gone now. As you know,
one gets stuff when available and considers the source.

> >The GR puppy eats shell and all, but the malamute leaves the shell.
>
> Egg shell gives calcium to dogs but if you were feeding bone in
diet,you don't need to give shell.If they eats shell,fine,if not,fine
as well if you fed bone in diet.
>

Yep, thanks.

> yassy
>
>

Hoping this finds you all "As fit as a butcher's dog"
Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Sweetbreads,
Posted by: "Viento Pampero" dogoycondor.argentinos@yahoo.com dogoycondor.argentinos
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:43 am ((PST))

Firstly, I would like to state how very happy I am to have found a
forum like this with so many like minded and intelliget individuals.

Sweetbreads, or (mollejas) as we call them in Argentina are the
pancreas, or on occasion the thymus glands of both bovine and ovine
origins. These organ meats contain a higher amount of vitamin A and B
Complex than muscle tissue and are therefore a valuable and natural for
the same, however all in moderation.

In the feeding of our Dogos, we would nearly utilize the whole carcass
of freshly slaughtered cattle or sheep, with the occasional exception
of the sweetbreads, those, we would eat ourselves.

Again, it is a pleasure to be here, I've already learned a great deal.

Best regards,

Juan Carlos

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Having trouble eating RMBs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:06 am ((PST))

How long has he been eating raw? It's possible he just needs to work
up his jaw strength. I'd feed him something easy like ribboned chicken
breast or pork roast. Stashing the food in the freezer for a short
time might not be a bad idea either since it would firm up the meat a
bit.

> If I give him a hunk of meat, even when I ribbon it, he won't touch
> the meat with his paws but shakes it and shakes it till pieces drop
> off.

That's not really a problem. Lots of dogs refuse to touch their food
with their paws. If gravity gets it done for him that's ok.

What kind of foods and size of foods are you feeding? Does he crunch
through bones ok or are those a problem as well?

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: veal sweetbreads...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:36 am ((PST))

"borodeauxs" <Borodeauxs@...> wrote:
Sweetbread is the testicles of an animal,..
*****
I don't think so. I think we've pretty much covered the possibilities:
pancreas and/or thymus. If you've got references that support your
claim, please feel free to post them.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. New & I did it!
Posted by: "karenditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

Hi!

I joined this list a few days ago. I had been thinking on and off
about switching to raw food for my dogs for some time, but had always
been afraid to make the leap! I first heard about the concept 9
years ago, but the recipes and formulas I heard at the time seemed so
complicated and I was afraid I'd not give my dog a balanced diet. I
did feed some raw foods occasionally along the way, but was never
able to feel confident enough to make the switch.

Recently I began researching again and this time the information I've
found seems a lot simpler to do! So... we are making the switch!

My dog is large (right about 100 lbs) and slightly underweight (he's
always just picked at his kibble) so I decided to start him at the 3%
level and watch that he doesn't gain too much. So that's 3 pounds a
day. And, based on what I've read, chicken is a good place to start,
so we're starting there.

This morning I cut a chicken in half and set it on the floor. I knew
he liked raw chicken, but had never given him a big piece like this.
Well... he did not need any instructions! He started right in
crunching bones as he went. In a few minutes it was gone! It
probably went down in about 4 large peices. He even licked every
tidbit up from the floor! That was probaly just over 2 lbs! I
really didn't expect him to eat it all based on the way he usually
picks at food and with him being new to this.

I'll give him a smaller peice tonight to make up the other pound, but
wanted to break it into two feedings to make it easier on his
digestion.

My plan is to stay with the chickens for a couple of weeks to let him
adjust and then start expanding the diet.

We also have a new puppy, and I want to switch him too, but I feel
less sure of what to do there. I figure a couple more days of kibble
won't kill him while I'm learning!

OK.. does what I did and am planning sound right? Any advice for
starting the puppy?

Thanks!

Karen

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

Great job, Karen! Sounds like you did just fine for the first time.
The only change I might make is to stick closer to 2lbs at first rather
than going with 3lbs. Too much food at once can often cause loose
stools, and while loose stools aren't the end of the world, we humans
often believe that it is. It's great that your boy jumped right in,
sounds like he'll be pretty easy.

As for the pup, just do the same thing you are doing with the adult.
More often than not puppies accept variety more easily than adults do,
so you'll be fine taking the same route with both. Just start with 2%
of the pup's ideal adult weight and go from there.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "karenditton" <karenditton@...>
wrote:

> OK.. does what I did and am planning sound right? Any advice for
> starting the puppy?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:31 am ((PST))

Congrats Karen!

We were very excited to start feeding raw too. Even better to see the positive changes in our
dog. :)

We have a small dog, 10#, and we feed once a day. We started slow with just chicken, then
added pork, then rabbit. So far, so good!

Good luck, and don't be afraid to switch the puppy.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. not working yet
Posted by: "sheila" schatzee@comporium.net osborne_sheila
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

Hi all, Have been doing raw for a week now, chicken leg quarters and whole chickens cut in half. Main reason was for my allergic st. bernard - Ears are still inflamed and black gunk in one of her ears. Any suggestions? sheila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: not working yet
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

----- Original Message ----
From: sheila schatzee@comporium.net

Hi all, Have been doing raw for a week now, Ears are still inflamed and black gunk in one of her ears. Any suggestions? sheila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

.
Sheila,
Raw is not a miracle worker, you need to be patient, a week is not far enough for the new diet to take effect. Have you considered taking him/her to the vet for some antibiotics?

Cyn


Follow This Link to visit my personal web page and help me in my efforts to support Autism Speaks.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: not working yet
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 am ((PST))

"Ears are still inflamed and black gunk in one of her ears. Any
suggestions?"

It's going to take up to 90 days to see the end results. What does the vet
say about his ears? and what do you use to keep them clean?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Question on RMB
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:40 am ((PST))

Thank you Wendy and Bill. This being my first dog feeding raw I guess
I'm going a little over board.

I can't see Luthor's ribs now. I'm giving him 3lbs of food a day (10
percent). He's not fat but defiantly not skinny.
I cut back some this morning and he defiantly noticed. I gave him one
hole back split in half and about 1 ½ cups of green tripe.

I de-boned the thighs because I read not to feed him support bones
and was also told this by my breeder. He has been fed raw since
coming off of Mom. I've also read on many sites that people feed
their dogs chicken and turkey legs with no problems. I'm just being a
little precautious.

He's never had loose stool or gotten sick from eating something new.
Sucked down his first egg and had some Sashimi with me last night.
Lucky dog got fresh Tuna my buddy caught.

Wendy I'm surprised you never read the main RMB meal is the morning
meal for puppies. The reasoning for this is the puppies grow (like
everything else) when they sleep. Bone takes longer to digest. You
don't want their bodies working on digesting food when it should be
resting and growing during the night.

Thanks again for your help.

Jay

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. Okay, Wow!
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 am ((PST))

Hello,
I have almost finished my first week. I am feeding an 80 lb. Lab, a 27
lb. Whippet, a 9 lb. Pomeranian, 6.5 lb. Pom, and two 5 lb. Poms! I am
constantly nervous that I am feeding to much or too little. My 9 lb. is
probably pregnant on top of everything else, but I swear my Lab's skin
and Whippet's skin is improving! My Poms seem more robust!
Now I have a week to prepare to make more changes. Please tell me more
confidence will come!!!!
Irene

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11.1. New to raw
Posted by: "Sam Thurlow" ecflame52@yahoo.com ecflame52
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 am ((PST))

Thank you for the info. I have been reading for about a week now. I am going to start my Bernese Mountain Dog on raw. I am sure we will have more questions. Thanks again SAM

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (52)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Organs to New Raw Eaters
Posted by: "Barbara" Barbararousey@yahoo.com barbararousey
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 am ((PST))

Hi All,

I'm new to the group, and I've been reading the posts with great
interest. Thank you to all of you for both your questions and
sharing your experiences.

My two aussies WERE on a grain and ground meat diet until
Thanksgiving, when I switched them to an RMB diet. So far they have
only had turkey and chicken. They're doing great. I love the
improvement in their breath!

I just received two elk hearts and livers from a hunter friend. Woo
hoo! I thought I'd introduce the dogs slowly to the idea, but then
I thought, "How would it look in nature?" So I gave it a try and
gave then each a slab of liver for breakfast this morning.

My male dog ate with his normal calm demeanor and seemed to enjoy it
very much. My female looked at me confused. "THIS is what you're
feeding me?" She didn't eat and followed me back into the house,
watching with great interest as I cut up the rest of the stuff to
freeze. I offered her small bits, which she only ate when the other
dog came back into the house.

My question is, should I try giving her small amounts with her
regular meals, or just let her go hungry for a bit and see if she'll
eat it later?

Question #2: Should I offer them a "bony meal" after feeding them
the heart? or with the heart? What sort of things would be
considered bony?

Barbara
and Zeke & Skittles

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Organs to New Raw Eaters
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:02 am ((PST))

My male dog ate with his normal calm demeanor and seemed to enjoy it
very much. My female looked at me confused. "THIS is what you're
feeding me?" She didn't eat and followed me back into the house,
watching with great interest as I cut up the rest of the stuff to
freeze. I offered her small bits, which she only ate when the other
dog came back into the house.

My question is, should I try giving her small amounts with her
regular meals, or just let her go hungry for a bit and see if she'll
eat it later?

#### ahhh... the eternal 'liver' question... some dogs adore it, some abhor
it...some care for it on a rotating basis, some will only consume it frozen,
pureed, warmed in water, the list is endless.

Since it is an ESSENTIAL part of the diet, it is up to you to learn your
dogs and figure out what works best for your individual situation

That being said, you also want to do so without creating a spoiled dog or a
dog with an attitude. I feed liver either once a week as a huge slab, or
twice a week as a smaller chunk. I KNOW my dog, however, and he has been
eating this way for years so a huge slab doesn't create loose stools. Dogs
new to raw are best to start with very small portions, just to be safe and
not create digestive distress.

What I do when I feed liver, is set it on the floor first with the main
course being off to the side at his nose level. I point to the liver, then
gesture obviously to the main course saying to him that if he eats this, you
get that.. it only took one night for him to learn that once the liver was
gone, the main course was dumped in front of him within 30 seconds. That
being said, my dog is a bit of a brainiac... and VERY manipulative so I
manipulate him right back... hah!

I also personally always feed organs with a bony meal just so his poop is
firm but it's optional. Because he has so much fur and he HATES having a
messy poop, I cater to him and to myself for not having to clean him but I
must say, he does a great 'butt drag' ;-))

A bony meal could be a rack of ribs, a chicken or a half a chicken, a
rabbit..you get the idea.

Chia & Ricco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. The Heart of the Matter
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

I am a little confused about heart.

I understand that it is a muscle meat and not an organ, but is it OK to
feed a whole meal of heart?

My dogs are 65# and 90# and are doing great on raw. They really look
amazing! They have been eating raw for a couple of months now and have
been fine with whatever protein I add. They are Ridgebacks with short
hound coats, but they are so soft and shiny and such clean teeth! I am
just so thrilled I switched to raw!

Thanks
Krystal

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: The Heart of the Matter
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST))

> I understand that it is a muscle meat and not an organ, but is it OK
> to feed a whole meal of heart?

I feed whole meals of heart, but I know that some dogs can't handle too
much heart without getting really loose stool. Depending on how much
loose stools bother you, you might want to start with a meal of half a
heart before going for the whole thing.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------