Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12373

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: An abundance of gas
From: Susanne MacLeod

2a. Re: first time raw - bottom wiggling fun
From: Andrea

3a. Re: brown teeth
From: Andrea
3b. Re: brown teeth
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: brown teeth
From: ginny wilken

4a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Irene Clark
4b. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Andrea
4c. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Tina Berry

5a. meaty meat meals
From: Andrea
5b. Re: meaty meat meals
From: Jamie Dolan

6a. Re: Nanaimo meat suppliers
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Studies
From: carnesbill

8.1. Re: fish oil
From: costrowski75
8.2. Re: fish oil
From: costrowski75
8.3. Re: fish oil
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Casey Post
9b. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Mary Tinder
9c. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Jen S

10a. Re: chicken liver
From: costrowski75
10b. Re: chicken liver
From: Michelle R

11a. literature
From: rosey031801
11b. Re: literature
From: Lauren Funaiole
11c. Re: literature
From: carnesbill

12a. Re: 1st raw meal
From: merril Woolf

13. pregant or nursing dogs
From: jawstrength101

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: An abundance of gas
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:12 am ((PST))

Again...thanks so much Chris....I was worried my post may have been
overlooked. I LOVE these deer necks - you should see them. I drove 4
hours to get them...they are as big as their heads as they are sliced,
and LOADED with meat - just gorgeous. Joey has been fine since, but
that is exactly what happened I think, he took in some air...scared me
though. You're the best Chris!
Suz Kate and Fearless Joey!

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: first time raw - bottom wiggling fun
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

> today was the first day for my lab pup (ive already started all the
> cats and im startin my other two tomorrow)

Holy cow, you already started the cats? Sista, sit back and relax
because you've done the hard part already!

> the last piece he swallowed was a little big for my liking
> but he didnt choke or anythin so all good.

Great, see all your fears were over nothing. I expect that even that
last bit wasn't really all that big either. Good job to both of you.

> i am planning on feeding him a chicken frame and leg in the morning
> then another quarter in the night.

I've never actually seen a chicken frame, but I imagine it to be
boney. Starting with boney meals will probably make sure you dont'
have loose stools, but in the future you want to make sure you are
feeding mostly meat with only a little bone. Especially for the
pupster.

> Does all this sound ok??????????????

Other than adding more meat to the meals it sounds good.

> for my cocker spaniel he has anal duct probs in that they have been
> manually emptied for awhile... and sometimes i see him having
> trouble with tryin to push one out (poo that is :) should i try and
> incorporate less bone for him??

Well, none of them need as much bone as you are offering, but firm
little poos are exactly what are going to help the anal gland
problem. I wouldn't feed him any differently than the others and you
may just see the problem go away on its own.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: brown teeth
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

It is likely that those spots on the teeth aren't getting gotten by the
food she's been eating. It might help to go over what she normally
eats and determine if you need to feed bigger or more akward meals.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly P" <picklesrfree@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
> teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: brown teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:34 am ((PST))

"Kelly P" <picklesrfree@...> wrote:>
> I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
> teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back. Shes been raw
> fed since we got her at 12 mos so I'm confused
*****
Either she has tooth damage or--most likely--you are not giving her
meaty bones that touch those particular teeth. The way teeth get clean
is through physical contact with an abrasive, whether that is a bone, a
toothbrush, dental equipment, or a chew object like a Nylabone or Kong
or something similar. If there is no contact, there is no cleaning.
The food simply being in the mouth is not enough.

I recommend you rethink what you've been feeding, how you've been
feeding.
Chris O
Also, a dog that's a year old is in fact 12 months old. Which means
you've only had the kid for, like, hardly at all. Really now, how long
have you been feeding her raw food?
C

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: brown teeth
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:15 am ((PST))

On Dec 12, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Kelly P wrote:

> I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
> teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back. Shes been raw
> fed since we got her at 12 mos so I'm confused as to why she has these
> brown spots. Any ideas? I looked in archives and did not find
> anything helpful
>

Depending on the individual's dentition and exact diet, uncleaned
spots can persist. That said, probably the biggest factor in stained
teeth these days is the distemper vaccine, which discolors
permanently in susceptible individuals.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:36 am ((PST))

OH MY GOSH MICHELLE! HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME LAUGH SO FREAKING HARD!!!!!!!! NOT
FREAKING FUNNY!!!! I AM ON MEDICAL LEAVE! WHAT IF YOU HAD CAUSED ME REAL
DAMAGE?!!!!!
Okay, I am new here, but I really do appreciate your humor and that was
great!
By the way, in one week I have learned that changing the diet to raw also
makes them dance and giggle.
Irene

On Dec 12, 2007 9:43 PM, Michelle Morgan <enzo@whereismichelle.com> wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Debi
> C" <dcole6@...> wrote:
> >People are always telling me that feeding raw will make a dog
> > aggressive.>
>
> They are absolutely right. My Caucasian Ovcharkas (all raw fed for the
> past 7 years) are much more aggressive than other people's... When
> Citibank stock plummeted, Enzo, our oldest male, kept pushing me to buy
> more, more, more. Driving Barynya to the vet is a nightmare... she
> keeps rolling down the window and shouting "Outta Da Way Fathead!!" -
> at traffic cops. Tsitsilia pushed Ebbie and Lucky off her favorite spot
> on the porch the other day and told them if they didn't like it, they
> could go sit on a de-matting comb. Even our baby Dima, who pretends to
> be a loving, snuggly, 170 lbs of fluff, cannot be trusted with
> children. Every time the neighborhood kids get a new ball, she pops it
> with her teeth just to watch them cry.
>
> Anyways, that's what I tell people when they ask me if feeding a dog
> properly will make it into a bloodthirsty maniac :-)
>
> Michelle
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))

<snort>
Dangit! Now I have hot cocoa all over myself. You got me!

My favorite is the one who pops the kid's ball just to watch them cry.

heeheehee. . . go sit on a de-matting comb. . . .I'm going to be
snickering all day.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle Morgan" <enzo@...> wrote:

> They are absolutely right. My Caucasian Ovcharkas (all raw fed for
> the past 7 years) are much more aggressive than other people's...
> When Citibank stock plummeted, Enzo, our oldest male, kept pushing
> me to buy more, more, more.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am ((PST))

"My favorite is the one who pops the kid's ball just to watch them cry."

Okay - Baron does do this and then takes the ball away - dang - it must be
the raw!!!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:46 am ((PST))

There's no hard and fast rule, except that you don't really *need* much
edible bone in the diet. I would imagine that most of us feed more
than 10% unless we make a concerted effort not to do so. Meaty meat
meals are just fine if your dog does well with them. Tycho didn't do
very well with them at first, but we just kept at it and now he digests
it fine. You might want to find some uncut pork necks if you want to
add non chicken bone to some meals. I find big pork necks at Mexican
Carnicerias pretty easily.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sheila" <schatzee@...> wrote:
>
> How often do you have to have bone in there meals? we were doing
chicken for about 8 days and started on pork today/ the pork i got was
boneless

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

You can get loose stools if you feed too much meat and fat. I have to make
an effort to feed enough bone because I feed a lot of pig and cow and they
can not eat thoses bones. I think I actually need to start feeding more
bones to them.

If your feeding to little bone I would watch and be careful of loose
stools. If your feeding too much, there stools may get very hard and they
may get a bit constipated.

I need to feed some bone about twice a week to avoid overly loose stools.

Good Luck

Jamie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Nanaimo meat suppliers
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sarahliepins" <sarahliepins@...>
wrote:
>
> oh and i also wanted to ask about this website this lady
> really trashes
> this diet who to say whats right and whats wrong exactly?

Yeah, thats Katie's page. She's been around for years. She has a
serious bone/bacteria phobia and just can't get over it. She
fancies herself as being some kind of expert although she has never
fed a raw meal to a canine in her life.

Katie says:
"What started out as an unresearched and unsubstantiated diet that
qualified veterinarians dismissed as a fad, has now become a real
threat for the well-meaning dog lovers who are striving to give
their dog's the best."

I say:
There are somewhere around 10,000 members on this list alone. I
would bet the vast majority of raw feeders never heard of this
list. One would think that if so many dogs were dying from this
diet that there would occasionally be a post stating so. I don't
remember seeing one single post from someone saying this diet killed
their dog.

Katie says:
"Additionally, dogs who are not on a raw meat diet are still at risk
because of parasites and bacteria spread through feces at commonly
shared parks."

I say:
I haven't seen any great amount of posts from list memebers talking
about parasites or bacteria picked up from the raw diet. Does Katie
think that kibble fed or home made fed dogs don't have bacteria in
their feces? I haven't read about children or grandchildren of dog
owners getting parasites or bacteria from raw fed dogs. These
things don't happen and to claim they do is no more than promoting
hysteria.

Katie says:
"Veterinarians across the United States have grave concerns about
bones and raw food (BARF) in a dog's diet."

I say:
Many do and many don't. Most don't have a clue. The greatest
majority have never fed a raw diet. Most vets know nothing more
than they have removed some bones from a dogs digestive system
sometime in their career. They don't know if it was cooked bone or
not. They don't know if the bone would have digested normally if
left alone.

Katie says:
"History and current statistics show us that both wild and domestic
dogs that eat BARF can and do become very ill for a number of
reasons."

I say:
Where are these statistics? What studies? Who did these studies?
Kibble fed dogs don't become ill? Dogs fed a home made diet don't
become ill? I suspect if anyone actually did run a study it would
be found that raw fed dogs are the healthiest.

Katie says:
"There has been a significant increase in a variety of illnesses due
to a raw meat diet."

I say:
What are these illnesses? Increased from what level to what level?
Meaningless statements like this are very easy to make. Impossible
to prove. Katie is blowing smoke here.

Katie says:
"Most dogs that die from a BARF diet do not show signs of illness
until a few days before it kills them. This is true with
pancreatitis, and with the raw chicken or turkey necks and backs,
which injure the stomach and intestines."

I says:
Exactly or even very approximately how many dogs have died of
injuries from poultry back or necks injuring their stomach or
intestines? I'm not saying it has never happened. I am saying its
more likely the dog will die from falling down stairs in the home.

Katie says:
"Any initial results they might see with a raw meat diet are a
result of an "absence" of one or more ingredients of the kibble -
NOT the "presence" of raw meat."

I say:
There is probably a lot of truth in that statement. It makes no
difference.

Katie says:
"I am very much in favor of home-made diets made with cooked meat
and grains, raw veggies and fruits, as long as you have researched
your dog's current health status and breeding history if possible."

I say:
See? Katie still thinks dogs are omnivores. She still can't get
over her high school home-ec class teaching that we need our veggies
to be healthy. I don't know what health status or breeding history
would keep a dog from eating an appropriate diet.

Katie says:
"The most compelling evidence are the growing number of dogs I have
known to actually die from a raw turkey or chicken back/neck tearing
apart their stomach. Intestinal parasites from the raw meat causing
a slow death or severe illness. Female dogs on a raw meat diet are
more commonly dying while giving birth to a litter."

I say:
Funny, I have been studying the raw diet for about 6 1/2 years and I
have never run across one single case. I'm sure there must be a
few, but I never ran into them. The ones I did "kinda" run into
turned out to be cooked bones. Most ended up being something like a
tennis ball or a rag or something other than bones. I have never
seen any evidence that raw fed dogs are more likely to die of damage
from parasites. I have never bred dogs so I can't answer her claim
about giving birth but I don't think it has any more credibility
than any other of katie's outrageous claims.

Katy says:
"Throughout my research, I have interviewed and collected data from
several top veterinary universities and nutrition experts with
degrees in science and biology. Not one of these credited experts
could honestly say that a raw meat and/or bone diet for domestic
dogs was anywhere near the realm of safe."

I say:
I also bet that not one of them ever fed a raw diet to a dog. Even
experts can be bone/bacteria phobic. I suspect the experts are even
more likely to be phobic about raw feeding because of their lack of
experience.

Katie says:
"In addition, I have not found a holistic practitioner or raw meat
advocate that can provide evidence that raw meat actually benefits
the dog."

I say:
I strongly suspect she just hasn't looked very hard. After several
years of exaustive searching, I have never found any scientific
study done by anyone that states that a kibble diet is more healthy
than a raw diet. Kibble is the FAD diet. It's only been around for
50 years or so and has only been popular for less than that. A raw
diet has been around for millions of years and proves itself
continuously.

Katie says:
"New studies are coming out frequently - all opposed to raw meat and
bone diets."

I say:
I'd like to see some of those studies. I don't believe they exist.
I think Katie is blowing smoke again. She should be getting better
at it. She has been doing it for years now.

Katie says:
"Dr. Billinghurst admittedly has never done any studies on wolves or
wild dogs."

I say:
Katie is probably right about Dr. B. BUT there have been many many
peer review studies over the last 50 years on the diet of wild
wolves. This stuff is not difficult to find. I'm sure if Katie
applied her self JUST A LITTLE she could come up with these
studies. I don't think she wants to.

Katie says:
"I have a wolf sanctuary, and the truth is that wild-born wolves
taken into captivity are typically malnourished."

I say:
"I think that is probably a true statement. Healthy wolves won't be
captured. However they are not malnourished because of their diet.
They are malnurished by diminished prey availability and habitat.
Most wolves taken into captivity are also probably injured and
possibly have gone no telling how long without eating.

Katie says:
"Most people *assume* that because wild dogs don't have the
opportunity to cook their food, that nature has set up the perfect
diet for them. This is simply not true.

I say:
I gotta argue with Katie here. If nature had not set up the proper
diet for them, they would have died out thousands of years ago.

Katie says:
"We know from their carcasses that they die of splintered fowl bones
and have very bad dentalia (dental problems)."

I say:
Baloney

Katie says:
"As for the statement that raw meat is a biologically correct food,
Humans have survived healthfully on cooked foods for thousands of
years. It is more than safe to say that diseases such as Cancer are
not caused by cooking your meat."

I say:
We don't know how healthy we would be if we never ate cooked meat.
I know there are people around who eat only raw meat and veggies.
They are very healthy people. I don't think, as Katie says, that
it's safe to say that diseases such are cancer are caused by cooked
meat. I think there are studies that prove otherwise. I remember
one study I saw about a years ago saying that grilled steaks have a
substance on the charred surface that MIGHT cause cancer.

Katie says:
"However, I have been told by experienced veterinarians and
nutritionists that they all have in common - they are extremely
unbalanced and also put your dog at risk of contracting dangerous
bacteria and parasites."

I say:
I don't think she has ever talked to a veterinarian or canine
nutritionist who is experienced in feeding a raw diet. I have asked
vets what is unbalanced about a raw diet and eventhough they tell me
it's unballanced, they can't tell me specifically what is
unballanced about it. I think 10,000 raw feeders feeding a prey
model diet for years to healthy dogs would disprove these so called
expert's claims.

And finally Katie says:
"This is not my own opinion, but that of the top veterinary
universities and true nutritional experts. Anyone to deny there is
risk, is fooling themselves!"

I say:
After feeding my dogs a raw diet for over 5 years with no incidents
(and I feed a lot of backs and necks), I am convinced it is safe. I
challenge Katie to feed one of her dogs a raw diet for 6 months.
She will switch the other dogs long before the 6 months is up.

Dang! I didn't know this would end up being quite this
long. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Studies
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
Are there any studies that show how raw food improves the life
> span of the dogs lives? How it makes them live longer and
> healthier lives?

Not exactly but close. There is a study done by 2 dutch vets that
showed that dogs fed any diet that was not commercial lived an
average of 32 months longer than dogs fed commercial diets.

http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8.1. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:46 am ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:>
> >However, the ratio should be 4:1 (Omega 6 to Omega 3).
>
> Hi,Chris. I tweaked diet and most i can do was 2.75:1
(omega6:omega3)
*****
Yassy, stop using charts to feed your dog. Clearly it is making you
crazy. Just tell me: is the meat you are feeding primarily
grassfed? Is the poultry you feed primarily free-ranging? Is the
fish you feed wild caught salmon, mackerel, herring, sardines or
anchovies?

If yes, than you do not have to supplement with fish oil.

If no, then you certainly can continue to supplement with fish oil if
you desire to.

Furthermore, the way you take weight off Palette, assuming her
thyroid is performing properly, is to feed her less food. Tell her
hunting has been terrible, all the deer and elk and mountain goats
have gone to winter pastures and only the bison are left and the snow
is not deep enough yet to slow them down so for the time being food
will hard to come by.

Assemble her meal, then remove some of it. Put the take-away into a
baggie and after a few meals a taking away you'll have accumulated
enough miscellanous food to be another meal. Feed it--no waste.

You can continue to feed what you are accustomed to feeding: JUST
FEED LESS. Feed less each meal, feed fewer treats, find rewards that
are not food-based.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (86)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:>
> My dog has been suffering from dandruff as well as an oily coat and a
> dry nose. I just started giving him fish oil pills to see if they make
> a difference...
*****
Salmon oil does not fix bad coats directly; it works on the immune
system and nervous system to address all manner of health issues. If
you are not feeding as wisely as you could be, if there are
environmental issues you are not taking into consideration, if your dog
has unaddressed health issues, then salmon oil alone is not likely to
restore your dog's skin problems.

Adding salmon oil for the larger benefits is a fine idea; adding fat to
the diet may also help with dry skin.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (86)
________________________________________________________________________

8.3. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:11 pm ((PST))

Jess,

This screams "get a thyroid test" to me. Make sure it's a full panel.

On Dec 13, 2007 4:57 AM, spricketysprock <jess.hamway@gmail.com> wrote:
> My dog has been suffering from dandruff as well as an oily coat and a
> dry nose. I just started giving him fish oil pills to see if they make
> a difference... hopefully they will help rather than further disrupt
> the O6 to O3 ratio. *fingers crossed.*
>
> Jess&Toby
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

Messages in this topic (86)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 am ((PST))

> My dogs are ALL turning up their noses at the fresh goat that I and
> neighbor butchered this weekend. They've eaten goat that the pro
> butcher did up for us...

What did you do wrong? You got dogs who are ungrateful serpent's teeth,
that's what!

Seriously, it may just smell weird to them...do you have someplace you can
bury it outside shallowly? Nothing like a little "earth marinade" to make
something weird more appealing...

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

Yep, a bunch of maybes. I wouldn't fret so but since it took
mustering my courage (and support from y'all) to bring it to
the "table." I wanted everyone to like it ;^)

Goat was less than 1 year old. This piece has not been frozen. But
they ate the fresh organ meat before it hit the ground!

Consider this: My neighbor's wife recoiled prior to seeing it
saying it "smelled" like a billy. And it was. There was some
mention (on the butchering website) about castrating prior to
butchering but we did not do this. Something about "tainting" the
meat but I assumed that was for human consumption. Can't imagine any
self respecting wolf refusing male meat.

I'll look for some Salmon oil tonight. I put some cuts in the goat
shoulder this morning to hopefully release some of the fresh sent.
This piece was not frozen so that too might have something to do.
It's been sitting, decorating the deck and yard, barely touched
since Sunday. I think I'm the only one who will touch it.

Mary T

> There are a bunch of maybes. You might have to start eliminating
> them. Or quit fretting and just try again.
>
> I'm sorry the event was such a let down. Bummer indeed.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Jen S" zordan@optonline.net sigp2301
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:45 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Dolan" <jamiedolan@...> wrote:

>
> Many will think Im a little nuts, but I am really really lax with
> leaving meat out. I'd just go ahead and leave some of it out at room
> tempature for a day or more and see if they like it better then.
> Normally the longer meat sits on the counter, the more excited they
> get about it. It never makes them sick (or us, we eat it too).
>
>

Ditto. And once it is outside for him (where he takes his meals), it
is out there forever. I don't go picking it up off the lawn if he
doesn't eat or finish it. He usually prefers it marinate for a day or
two and get a bit stinky. To each his own, I guess... but he doesn't
get any more until that one's gone.

I gave him a whole rabbit once. Once. About two weeks after he got
the rabbit, a new (vegetarian) friend of ours was visiting at our
house for the first time. It was July, and hot out. We were sitting
out on the deck enjoying a nice homebrew, when here comes my dog.
Now, you have to picture this. He is a German Shepherd, would pass
for a "Shiloh Shepherd" if the AKC recognized the breed. He is long
haired, 109 lbs, and goofy as hell (heck?). He is young, so still
very much puppy-like. He comes trotting over to her with this rabbit.
Not the whole rabbit mind you. It was the head, front legs and rear
end all held together by the pelt. It was covered in protein, and it
STUNK! He dropped it at her feet, and I didn't think we would ever
see her again.

If she can get used to it, anybody can.

JenZ

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Wondering whether the dogs might be onto something in terms of the
chicken
> livers? Maybe they' know NOT to eat them (like cats suspect
poison). Just
> thinking here of the function of the liver especially for factory
bred
> chickens???
*****
Cats are suspicious of new. If they've never eaten poison they're
not likely to try.

It's possible of course that you have run into a streak of crappy
chicken livers but my guess is you have not. I suspect it's texture
or temperature or smell or unappealing flavor (as opposed to the
taste of danger); you may also have contributed to the dislike by
inordinate fussing.

If chicken liver is a consistent no-go, try beef or veal or pork or
turkey liver. Remember, liver's only responsible for 3%-5% of the
menu, so you do not have to feed it in quantity. I can't believe
that a plop of liver hidden in a larger plop of ground meat will go
uneaten.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

LOL...I tried to introduce a tiny itty bitty single diced piece of liver, in the middle of ground beef, just as Chris suggested. I have also hidden it among a pile of venison, or chicken, or turkey or whatever...I always find the tiny itty bitty piece of liver sitting alone. Its become quite a challenge. I have two that refuse to eat any type of liver (Ive tried, beef, goat, chicken, turkey, pork and duck) , at all, under any circumstances Ive presented so far. The rest...would eat buckets of the stuff if Id let them. I have not tried it dried, and I have not tried it diced and frozen into little treat cubes either, so I am still exploring options...

My aussie, goes so far as to not only refuse liver, but he wont eat anything the liver has touched. :-)

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. literature
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: literature
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:44 am ((PST))

Hi Cheryl,

www.usrmb.net has some flyers you can hand out.

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "rosey031801" <rosey031801@sbcglobal.net> 12/13/2007 8:31 AM >>>

I have a dog grooming shop. I have convinced lots of people to do the
switch from kibble to raw. I would like to be able to hand my clients a
tangible piece of paper that it not limited to my opinion. Is such a
thing out there. I would purchase them if it is available. Recent Activity
100New Members
Visit Your Group
Moderator Central
Yahoo! Groups
Get the latest news
from the team.
Yahoo! Groups
Endurance Zone
b/c every athlete
needs an edge.
Yahoo! Groups
Going Green
Share your passion
for the planet..

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: literature
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rosey031801" <rosey031801@...>
wrote:
>

You can print my web page and hand it out if you wish. It's not
pretty but I've been told its useful.

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: 1st raw meal
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am ((PST))

> We will be traveling to mom's for the holidays, and she (and
> especially brother) are not ok with Raw. Is it ok to switch her to
> kibble while we are there and back to raw when we come home? We go up
> about once a month for a weekend, so this switch would happen
> repeatedly. I know it is not ideal, but is it ok?
>
> Holly

I travel and stay with non raw feeders often and whether you feed raw or kibble should
make no difference when you stay with friends or rels.

In a nutshell, feeding while on the road is easy.
Bring an ice-chest with your dogs food inside.
At meal time, feed in a crate in your vehicle and leave the dog in it until he's finished.
Your relatives won't have to see you feeding your dog and your dog still gets his usual fun
diet.

Just because someone is 'not ok' with raw doesn't mean you have to feed a less than
optimal diet as a result.
If you can't feed in a crate in your car, feed in a crate in the garage or in the side yard or
where ever.

I'm playing catch-up here as I have been out of town for a week at a non-raw feeding
friends place. My dogs ate in the car. No fuss and no bother.

Merril

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "jawstrength101" jawstrength101@yahoo.com jawstrength101
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:22 am ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++

will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
each???

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, December 13, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12373

0 Comments:

About Me

Previous Posts