[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12369

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Hello and Questions
From: Firestone, Adam C.
1b. Re: Hello and Questions
From: Lauren Funaiole
1c. Re: Hello and Questions
From: Chia
1d. Re: Hello and Questions
From: Sandee Lee
1e. Re: Hello and Questions
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Undigested chicken bones
From: T Smith

3a. Thawed out deer bones on porch
From: Susanne MacLeod
3b. Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
From: Susanne MacLeod

4. An abundance of gas
From: Susanne MacLeod

5a. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: adkjoe17
5b. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Scott Baker
5c. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Tina Berry
5d. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: adkjoe17
5e. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Tina Berry
5f. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: carnesbill
5g. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: johnsonkp200
5h. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Tina Berry
5i. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5j. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: costrowski75
5k. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Chia

6. Pork Kidney, Turkey Giblets, etc.
From: redangelbordeaux

7. DDB on RAW update :)
From: redangelbordeaux

8a. feeding kidney....help!
From: patti.h310
8b. Re: feeding kidney....help!
From: Giselle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Hello and Questions
Posted by: "Firestone, Adam C." Adam.C.Firestone@saic.com spitzgeschoss
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:37 am ((PST))

New member here - hopefully much to learn!

Quick question: Can anyone suggest books specifically on a)
nutritionally balanced home made diets in general for dogs and b)
nutritionally balanced raw diets for dogs?

Thank you!!!

Adam

"The easy way is always mined."
(The hard way leads into a fire sack.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (21)
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1b. Re: Hello and Questions
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:55 am ((PST))

Hi Adam,

The only book that I recommend is Tom Lonsdale's book, Work Wonders. It's a great guide to raw feeding. You can get it from www.rawmeatybones.com

Lauren F.

>>> "Firestone, Adam C." <Adam.C.Firestone@saic.com> 12/12/2007 9:27 AM >>>

New member here - hopefully much to learn!

Quick question: Can anyone suggest books specifically on a)
nutritionally balanced home made diets in general for dogs and b)
nutritionally balanced raw diets for dogs?

Thank you!!!

Adam

"The easy way is always mined."
(The hard way leads into a fire sack.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Hello and Questions
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:03 am ((PST))

New member here - hopefully much to learn!

Quick question: Can anyone suggest books specifically on a)
nutritionally balanced home made diets in general for dogs and b)
nutritionally balanced raw diets for dogs?

###read much of the archives....go to the links below...it is truly ALL
you need. For specific questions, ask us anything you wish!

http://www.rawfeddogs.net

(click on recipes...) ;-))

The Myth Pages:

http://www.rawfed.com

(any question or answer you could ever need or
reply to)

TAV site: (if you are going to question what goes into your dog's body
nutritionally, research the harms of vaccines on below link as well.
Important to do so!

http://www.truthaboutvaccines.org

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Messages in this topic (21)
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1d. Re: Hello and Questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:25 am ((PST))

Adam,

You don't really need a book...just look at nature and feed accordingly.
The normal diet of a carnivore consists of lots of meat, a little edible
bone and the all important organs. It's just that simple. A prey model
diet is nutritionally balanced just as it comes! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Firestone, Adam C." <Adam.C.Firestone@saic.com>
>
> Quick question: Can anyone suggest books specifically on a)
> nutritionally balanced home made diets in general for dogs and b)
> nutritionally balanced raw diets for dogs?

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Hello and Questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Firestone, Adam C."
<Adam.C.Firestone@...> wrote:

> Quick question: Can anyone suggest books specifically on a)
> nutritionally balanced home made diets in general for dogs and b)
> nutritionally balanced raw diets for dogs?

Work Wonders by Tom Lonsdale is the absolute best book by far to
give you the information you are looking for. You need to remember
one thing. "Nutirionally Balanced" is a human concept of arbitrary
numbers based on very little actual science. It means very little
for dogs or humans. NO one ... and I mean no one can tell you
exactly the amounts of what nutirients you or your dog need for
optimum diet. It is all theory and no fact. Luckily both the human
and canine body adjust for variences in diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (21)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Undigested chicken bones
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Yes, yes, must agree, very true. I saw the same thing & does happen now &
then. It took only a few weeks to clear up in mine. It was expained to me
as the stomach acids needing time to become normal after crap in a bag has
been fed for so long.
I'm still new: only a raw feeder a few months now so I know others will
chime in with more specifics for you.
Take Care,
Trina

--
Chip (senior cancer deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf & epileptic Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (senior deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (senior disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (16+ yr old deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
~ Waiting to be filled ~
VISIT ALL OUR KIDS AT: http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f232/coldbeach/

On Dec 12, 2007 5:38 AM, Chia <chia.m@shaw.ca> wrote:

> #### not to worry this is totally normal and will eventually stop after
> amonth or two. However, sometimes when new sources are introduced you maysee
> this on occasion. I used to semi-regularly notice this is in my boy inthe
> beginning but it has been years since then. I know they look scarythough!
>
> Those intestinal walls are TOUGH... a little bone shard nested in poop
> will do no harm.
>
> Chia & Ricco
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Thawed out deer bones on porch
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hi gang.....it's deer season here, so I have recently purchased a
wackload of deer meat, some great RMB, a 10l pail of green tripe, and
I'm flying to my folks place on Fri to get 10 wild rabbits. I only
have 2 Frenchies...but couldn't pass up the deals. I only have a
5cubic ft freezer. My question is I have the tripe on my front porch
and the bag of deer bones (RMB) on my front porch in a cooler. The
temp here is hovering around 1-3 degrees Celcius - 0 being the frezing
mark. At night it drops to -4 or so. I see the bones kinda thaw out
during the day. I was planning on leaving them out there all winter.
How bad is it to let them thaw every day and then freeze up at night?
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:05 am ((PST))

"Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...> wrote:
>> How bad is it to let them thaw every day and then freeze up at night?
*****
I don't think it's bad but I also don't think you're going to see
significant thawing until what--March? If you keep the loot as heaped
together as you can, that will reduce the daily thaw. If you see a
warming trend coming, you could add a blankie or two to the pile.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

Thanks Chris....I figured as much....but I just wanted to make
sure....the tripe in in a pail, so thats all good. I tired to squeeze
as many deer bones in my freezer as I could, but there's a pile
left....I went to pick it up and there was runny deer blood...so it was
thawing, but tonight it should freeze back up again....the meat won't
go bad will it?
Suz

Messages in this topic (3)
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4. An abundance of gas
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:55 am ((PST))

Last night Joey, my 4 year old Frenchie went to town on a gorgeous deer
neck....anyhow, after he had enough, he kinda had some issues...it was
like he was gulping for air, or was trying to swallow. He licked my
hand a tonne. I massaged his throat, and saw there was nothing lodged,
and gave him some Calm and Clear ABFE, to calm him. After about 15
min, it stopped. My gut was telling me it was air intake/ or gas, and
he let out a couple of whopping burps after. Anyone ahve any thoughts
on this? Scared the bejeezus out of me though.
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Baker" <scottsbaker@...>
wrote:
>
> Yup, I feed once a day, for this reason alone. To be able to feed
larger
> more complicated meals.

Let me ask this then...what about puppies? say 12 weeks to 6 months.
Don't they need more than 1 or 2 meals a day? what would be the best
way to split it up? Should I offer a huge portion let her work at it
a bit then take it away or should I just give her a couple ounces here
and there?

Joe

Messages in this topic (19)
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5b. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:45 am ((PST))

Id feed the large portion and let them eat away at it a few times a day.

On Dec 12, 2007 2:36 PM, adkjoe17 <j2dope17@yahoo.com> wrote:

> -Let me ask this then...what about puppies? say 12 weeks to 6 months.
> Don't they need more than 1 or 2 meals a day? what would be the best
>

> way to split it up? Should I offer a huge portion let her work at it
> a bit then take it away or should I just give her a couple ounces here
> and there?
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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5c. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:45 am ((PST))

"12 weeks to 6 months. "

12 wks to 6 months I feed 3 x daily; 6-12 months 2 x daily; then over 12 is
once per day.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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5d. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:03 am ((PST))

Tina Berry wrote:

> "12 weeks to 6 months. "
>
> 12 wks to 6 months I feed 3 x daily; 6-12 months 2 x daily; then
over 12 is
> once per day.

So like Scott says, a large portion, let her chew away for a bit on
whatever part she chooses and then take it away and give it back to
her later?

What do you think about a whole chicken to a 15-20 lb puppy let her
eat away at it untill I feel she had enough for one sitting then
give it back to her a couple times a day instead of cutting it up
into portions, is there anything wrong with that? cutting up a whole
chicken into portions can be a pain but I have no problem doing it
if it would be better.

Joe

Messages in this topic (19)
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5e. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:20 am ((PST))

"What do you think about a whole chicken to a 15-20 lb puppy let her eat
away at it untill I feel she had enough for one sitting then give it back to
her a couple times a day instead of cutting it up into portions"

I think that would be fine too.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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5f. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:
>
I feed twice a day and have for the 5+ years I've been feeding raw.
My dogs never indicated to me that they prefer large complicated meals
every once in a while over regular smaller simpler meals. They are
just as happy and healthy as the gorge/fast fed dogs. They don't bile
vomit or show any problem if a meal is a few hours late. Dogs prefer
knowing what to expect and when to expect it. They are creatures of
habit. It helps them emotionally to get along in an alien
civilization.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (19)
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5g. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

Thanks for all the great replies. Feeding once a day (or less) makes
sense to me and I'm going to switch him to that. It is true, cutting
his portion in halves left him with not much to sink his teeth into. :))

Karen

Messages in this topic (19)
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5h. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

"They are just as happy and healthy as the gorge/fast fed dogs. They don't
bile vomit or show any problem if a meal is a few hours late. Dogs prefer
knowing what to expect and when to expect it. They are creatures of
habit."

I think I'm the creature of habit, I like feeding the same amount, once a
day, and approximately the same size portions. Every once in awhile they'll
get too large of a dinner and the next day they get 8oz of something to curb
their appetite with their daily raw egg and fish oil. I think if a dog is
used to gorging/fasting they are just as happy as if they are eating daily
and vice versa. It's whatever fits our schedule. I do vary in feeding
times tho since Ruger did the bile vomit thing when dinner was too late one
time, so now I vary the feeding times and that's never happened again.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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5i. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/12/2007 7:29:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sunfiretervs@comcast.net writes:

So my question is, do most feed their adult dogs one or two times a day
on raw diet? I could not figure out what to type in the search box to
find this.

Karen,

even on kibble no adult dog needs to be fed more than once a day. Some folks
feed twice or more a day because they feel the dog needs to eat as often as
they do. but this is NOT the case. Dogs are wolves in domesticated clothes,
and wolves do NOT eat even every day, they eat when they hunt and kill
something and then they gorge themselves for as long as the food lasts. Sometimes
they go more than a week without eating.

Raw meat is almost completely digested, the dogs use almost everything, and
there is far less waste than what there was on kibble. Dogs are hungrier on
kibble because they are never satisfied, their bodies are literally starving for
nutriets that kibble never provides. They eat and they get fat because of
the calories and carbs but their bodies never recieve the nutrients necessary
for their bodies to realize that they are satisfied.

And even after you switch this will continue for awhile.. a lot of what dogs
do is habit and learned behaviour. Even though their bodies are now getting
the proper nutrients, they are used to eating or at least begging for food more
often than they need it. My dogs took about 8 months before they started
not being interested in everything they saw and begging all the time. (of
course hubbies that give dogs stuff off their plate everytime he eats doesn't help).

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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5j. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:51 pm ((PST))

"adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
what about puppies? say 12 weeks to 6 months.
> Don't they need more than 1 or 2 meals a day?
*****
I feed healthy adults every other day, generally. I feed oldsters and
youngsters once a day or more frequently as age and health issues
dictate.

I am most satisfied with results when I feed pups four times a day til
three months, then three times a day til six months, then twice a day
til a year or close to it, at which time I move to one square a day.
This is all very plus or minus of course!

I am not particularly creative when it comes to feeding pups.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (19)
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5k. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:55 pm ((PST))

even on kibble no adult dog needs to be fed more than once a day. Some
folks
feed twice or more a day because they feel the dog needs to eat as often
as
they do. but this is NOT the case. Dogs are wolves in domesticated
clothes,
and wolves do NOT eat even every day, they eat when they hunt and kill
something and then they gorge themselves for as long as the food lasts.
Sometimes
they go more than a week without eating.

#### Catherine,

totally with you on this! Ricco eats ONLY when he is hungry. People are
often amazed that he NEVER begs for food or shows any interest in crumbs
etc...that behaviour just isn't there. I see so many dogs out in the world
so very overweight, sniffing and begging for a scrap of someone's
snack..makes me feel SO sorry for what they are routinely fed.

I also realize how a wolf's stomach is meant to function and letting it
completely shrink like an accordion to nothing between meals is VERY
appropriate and keeps so many digestive issues at bay. Once again, if you
follow nature, the outcome is almost always desirable!

I would also think dogs that happily eat twice a day that have been raw
fed for years are perhaps not always enjoying a very large meal at night,
therefore not utilizing the stretch/expand nature of the stomach ... but,
since I have a dog that truly doesn't care about food much except to
survive, I could be off on that behaviour aspect of other dogs. I just
truly believe that feeding a dog as close to how it would eat in nature is
preferable.

Chia & Ricco

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6. Pork Kidney, Turkey Giblets, etc.
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

Picked up another big-ole batch of meat stuffs yesterday!
This time I got about 40# of pork kidney for some organ variety.
I have to say that so far it's a love/hate wtih the kidney. Even though
it was in one large lump all frozen together it was by far the easiest
item to seperate out and bag up last night. On the other hand, it
really made my whole bathroom smell like Pig Pee, ick!
I'll search Archives as well, but, wondering what goodies are in Kidney
and if there is a possibility to overdoo it in feeding? Since I have to
purchase organs in such large quantity I am getting one type each trip
untill I have a good variety on hand so for now it's pork kidney and
turkey liver. Is it a good idea to get species variety in the organs.
Like feeding Beef Heart, Pork Kidney and Turkey liver and then rotate
species organ type? Or is an organ just and organ and could feed all
organs from same animal all the time? Any suggestions on the best
organ to add next on the menue? I want to get the most important ones
in there diet first :)

Also got 40# of turkey Gibblet baggies, now that was fun. I know, why
would I seperate them out? Simple answer, OCD, haha! Really though the
liver content was outrageous! I think I have about a 6 month supply of
turkey liver for feeding. Now I aslo have nice little turkey hearts
that will make perfect treats to grab out of the fridge durring the
day. Thinking about either baking them or attempting to dehydrate and
use as training treats or bait at shows. Since the Gizzards are just
huge I can throw them in when I need some more meat in a meal.

Thanks a bunch!

Erika

Messages in this topic (1)
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7. DDB on RAW update :)
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

Thanks for all the responses to my Bordeaux feeding inquiry!
I'll definatley save all of your addresses so that we can chat some
when I get a bit more time.

All the "kids" are doing great other than the stinkey burps and other
exhaust, lol. We have a dog show this weekend, first one since visible
physical changes since the diet change and I am so excited to see how
they do! It will be interesting to see if anyone who knows my dogs sees
a change and comments on them. Fingers crossed for us and that the rain
will go away for just this weekend! It's been super soggy and not to
much fun trying to feed everyone and keep them dry, but at least there
are no flys to deal with in this whether ;)

Erika and the Bordeaux Children

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. feeding kidney....help!
Posted by: "patti.h310" patti.h310@yahoo.com patti.h310
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

We've been raw now for several months and I finally found beef
kidney......now what!!?? Finnigan is 50lbs and pretty active so he
does well with 1.5lbs of food per day. We're on all the basics...pork,
beef, chicken, lamb, and liver (which is almost impossible to get him
to eat unless it's hidden). How much kidney? How often? Is it a
muscle or organ?

Thanks,
Patti

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: feeding kidney....help!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

Hi, Patti!
Kidney is a squidgey ick organ, and *any* organ ('cept for
heart, tongue and gizzards) other than liver is part of the 5-7% "other"
category.
80% meatymeat
10% edible bone
10% organ - 3-5% liver and 5-7% "other"

You feed it however you want, although I don't recommend a complete meal of
it, without gradually acclimating the dog first, thats the slippery route to
cannon butt or the Hershey squirts. ; )

1 1/2 lbs a day = 19.2 oz of meatymeat + 2.4 oz of edible bone + 1.2 oz of
liver + 1.2 oz of "other" organ

OR

10.5 lbs per week = 8.4 lbs meatymeat + 16.8 oz edible bone + 8.4 oz liver +
8.4 oz "other" organ

OR feed it monthly, or whenever you remember, or need to clean out the
freezer. ^_^

Have you tried chopping the liver up and mixing it with some tripe? Yum,
stiiiiinky!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 12, 2007 3:42 PM, patti.h310 <patti.h310@yahoo.com> wrote:

> We've been raw now for several months and I finally found beef
> kidney......now what!!?? Finnigan is 50lbs and pretty active so he
> does well with 1.5 lbs of food per day. We're on all the basics...pork,
> beef, chicken, lamb, and liver (which is almost impossible to get him
> to eat unless it's hidden). How much kidney? How often? Is it a
> muscle or organ?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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