[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12377

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: kaebruney
1b. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: adkjoe17

2a. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: MORGAN LEWIS

3a. Re: Allergies and Raw
From: mgitaville
3b. Re: Allergies and Raw
From: Belinda van de Loo

4a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: Jamie Dolan

5. I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
From: Anndrea

6a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
From: Maria

7a. Feeding raw bones
From: Sai Simonson
7b. Re: Feeding raw bones
From: carnesbill

8a. not eating
From: hanson_jenlynn
8b. Re: not eating
From: katkellm
8c. Re: not eating
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

10a. Papillon on raw
From: engel_a_amy
10b. Re: Papillon on raw
From: cypressbunny
10c. Re: Papillon on raw
From: Giselle
10d. Re: Papillon on raw
From: betty hinson

11a. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R
11b. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R
11c. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R
11d. Re: How long is "too long"
From: cypressbunny
11e. Re: How long is "too long"
From: katkellm

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible that If i feed to much at one sitting, 2-3 hours
later
> they could vomit up a lot of there meal still pretty whole and un-
> digested?

Yep.. definitely. It happens with mine from time to time. And it's
not necessarily too much food. It can be that they didn't chew
slowly, or that they ate too quickly from being particularlyu
hungry. Quite often for my little one, it's a bone that they didn't
chew properly that starts it and after they vomit they re-eat minus
that piece of bone.

Dogs are wonderful self regulators. if you notice it happening
regularly, I might feed bigger parts or even more frozen food (not
totally frozen, but partially) to slow them down while eating.

Don't worry mom.. it's all good. :0)

Kae

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:05 pm ((PST))

> Yep.. definitely. It happens with mine from time to time. And it's
> not necessarily too much food. It can be that they didn't chew
> slowly, or that they ate too quickly from being particularlyu
> hungry. Quite often for my little one, it's a bone that they didn't
> chew properly that starts it and after they vomit they re-eat minus
> that piece of bone.
>
> Dogs are wonderful self regulators. if you notice it happening
> regularly, I might feed bigger parts or even more frozen food (not
> totally frozen, but partially) to slow them down while eating.
>
> Don't worry mom.. it's all good. :0)
>
> Kae

Thanks everyone for the help and reassurance. She never vomits up her
meals so it was prob too much. she did eat it back up though so maybe
she scarfed it down, thanks!

Joe

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:11 pm ((PST))

\ MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
>
> well somehow i missed BREED of this dog. morgan
*****
Well, heck and a half, Morgan. Looks like you also forgot to trim your
message! Not a good day so far, hey?

The breed in question is GSD.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> As for my .02 cents on the original topic, Chris O already tossed the
coins
> into the kitty. ; )
*****
HA!
Wouldn't we make a great pair of big spenders? Atlantic City watch out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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2c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
Recent Activity

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.

well since yahoo, can not do what it was preset to do (cut) I'll do it the old fashion way. Now about the STUD, if the lady will send me a pedigree, I will forward to the head of GSDCA Health Committee, if there are any problems in the lines she will probably know them. Since this is not a genetics list please send privately, IBD and many other diseases flourish in the GSD. Part of the problem is genetic, part environment, part vaccination and a hell of a lot of it diet. Morgan

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Allergies and Raw
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:50 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Laura Opuszenski <opi1177@...> wrote:

>
> She is definitely having problems with something because she is
constantly itching. She wasn't having any problems vomiting until I
gave her the chicken. She threw up 10 minutes after eating it and then
for the following 2 days. So I am going to stay away from it for now. I
will check out that site. Thanks for the feedback.
>

*******I have to agree with what many of the previous posters stated.
First, I put as much stock in how accurate an allergy test as I would
put stock in me winning the lottery tomororow.

I noticed one CRITICAL piece of information was missed in the previous
posts. If a dog has true food allergies there is an 80% chance they
ALSO have enviormental allergies. So, for all you know the flare ups
could just as easily be caused by your laundry detergent, mold on wet
leaves outside, dust mites in the house, etc.

You don't have to go with chicken if you feel it is an allergy, but you
do need to do an elimination diet of sorts. You can not jump back and
forth between protein sources. I wouldn't even think about eggs, fish,
or organs for the first month. (many allergy dogs seem to have weak
digestive systems to go along with the allergies....not shocking since
this is a compromised immune system issue....so I would stick with
basics for a bit).

I suspect you will find that the real culprit is the grain in your
dog's diet. You may eventually find a protein source allergy too (lamb
is an issue for my allergy boy), but honestly he can tolerate now that
his immune system is healthy if needed. He itches for a few days and
licks his paws, but no more hives and hotspots.

It can take up to 8 weeks for an allergic reaction to stop being
present even after the allergen has been removed from your dog's diet
so to feed chicken for 3 days and declare it an issue is a bit over
zealous in my opinion. Like I said above though, pick a different meat
and then stick with it for several weeks before trying something new.

I still go back to the way I started this post as your first step....
ignore the allergy test results.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Allergies and Raw
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:09 pm ((PST))

Hello Laura,
Your situation sounds so much like mine with my westie. At 6-8 months
he was miserable (and so was I!) with all his scratching and itchies.
After another 9 months of detective work and diet changes (elimination
and otherwise) I realized that it was all brought on by his booster
vaccinations. I went to a homeopathic vet, she gave him a remedy and
the itchies were over. A large contributor to his turnaround was, of
course, a raw diet. For quite some time I had to stick with a unique
protein like lamb or goat or rabbit. But after his immune system
calmed down he can now tolerate any meat - and is thriving. It's my
dream-come-true, my heartache over!
He is now 4 and a half and the picture of health.
Hang in there and don't give up or give in.
See a homeopathic vet (classical) and find a unique protein source for
your dear dog.
Blessings,
Belinda and "Honey" from Holland

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:09 pm ((PST))

HI:

> "Jamie is right.. BUT.. remember that only a very small portion of the
> overall
> diet needs to be edible bone. And pork bones are entirely edible for
> all but
> the very tiniest dogs".

My largest boy is 19 pounds. Perhaps they could infact handle some
pork bones, but I always suspected that most pork bones were too tough
for my boys. However that said, If I had larger dogs, I would not be
afraid of feeding them pork bones.

> Since I am only on my second day of the switch to RMB I do not expect
> to get all my answers at once..However, I am a little confused. I want
> to be sure I am on the right track. I was going to keep the boys (mini
> poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of weeks
> initially. Is this going to be too much bone for them? I see some say
> you don't need bone every day. Should I be using boneless chicken
> breast or ground chicken? Thanks in advance!

I would add in some boneless meat, but I would keep a good amount of
bone in the diet in the begining. Some dogs have a smidge of trouble
making the switch in the begining. A bit of extra bones can help
makes things a bit easier. Just don't get in the habbit long term of
feeding too much bone.

Honestly, I would just get some whole chickens. If you are just
buying chickens from the grocery, you can find chickens for around
$1.19 a pound or less in the midwest. I'd buy whole chickens and feed
them whole or cut them up a bit if necessary for feeding.

Whatever you get, I would only get ground meat if you have to due to
cost. Giving them meat to chew on is far more enjoyable for the dogs.
i.e. I feed ground beef to the dogs at time because when I buy a cow
you get a lot of group beef, and I have to use it up somehow. I can
only eat so much ground beef. The dogs and the humans here all perfer
the roasts, but thoses go quickly. We have eaten half a cow of roasts
in 3 weeks.

Good Luck

Jamie

Messages in this topic (9)
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5. I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:28 pm ((PST))

I have a bunch of ground organic beef/hamburger, some steaks, ribs, etc.

I don't honestly remember how much of what.

I got it a while back from someone who had it for a long time. It has
stayed frozen the whole time.

It is SEVERELY freezer burned, and I don't know if that effects the
nutritional value, or edibility (is that a word? LOL) for the dogs/cats.

I am moving away and the freezer needs to be emptied.

If anyone is interested, please email me and let me know.

It's free, and if possible I would like one person to take it all, but
am open to whatever.

I leave Monday, and my sister will have it until someone comes and gets
it or she will eventually toss it if no one does.

Please let me know.

We are in Rockwood (kind of between Portland and Gresham) in Oregon.

Thanks!

anndrea

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:52 pm ((PST))

I gave the dogs thier first meal of stinky deer a few days ago. They
loved it! Their wasn't any chemical warfair after it either. No stink
bombs or connon butt. Yay for road kill!

Maria

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Feeding raw bones
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:53 pm ((PST))

For what it is worth!

My dog trainer was all upset because her veterinarian told her that the
reason her ten year old Brittany was extremely sick with bacteria
affecting her liver that it was the raw bones that carry this bacteria.
The theory being that her stomach was scratched and healed but the
bacteria got into the bloodstream and infected the liver. This dog (an
all her dogs) have had raw bones all their lives without problems. The
trainer was quite distressed. The vet also added that older dogs and
young dogs were most susceptible. This will not make a whit of
difference to me as I am seeing happy energetic Borzois. But I pass it
on in case there is any documentation out there to refute these claims.

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Feeding raw bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:45 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sai Simonson <saiczarina@...>
wrote:
>
> For what it is worth!
>
> My dog trainer was all upset because her veterinarian told her
> that the
> reason her ten year old Brittany was extremely sick with bacteria
> affecting her liver that it was the raw bones that carry
> this bacteria.

Well, the vet had to come up with some story and this is as good as
any EXCEPT the true one. This story is fantasy.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. not eating
Posted by: "hanson_jenlynn" hanson_jenlynn@yahoo.com hanson_jenlynn
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:23 pm ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

i have been feeding my dog raw for about 2 1/2months now and she has
been loving it. however she recently has decided that she won't eat her
raw chicken. 5 out of 7 days she gets chicken and the other 2 days she
either gets pork or beef. on monday she ate her pork neck like a little
trooper.. however she hasn't eaten any of her chicken this week.
tomorrow she is supposed to have beef ribs and liver. i know she isn't
starving but i have a whole freezer full of chicken she won't eat!
should i be feeding her more beef/pork than chicken? and what if she
never returns to eating chicken? is that a problem? thanks in advance

Messages in this topic (23)
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8b. Re: not eating
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hanson_jenlynn"
<hanson_jenlynn@...> wrote:

> should i be feeding her more beef/pork than chicken? and what if she
> never returns to eating chicken? is that a problem? thanks in addvance

Hi,
I think that your menu, 5 out of 7 days being chicken, is definitely
chicken heavy. So, yes i would offer more pork and beef. A variety of
parts from a variety of critters is a good thing to remember. Chicken
is not a must eat item, so if you don't care if your dog doesn't eat
chicken, its not a big deal. However, since you have a freezer with
chicken in it and chicken is cheap which allows your budget to spend
more money on beef and such, i would not let my dog get away with not
eating chicken. I would feed a little variety for a week or so and
then offer chicken as the entree. If your dog doesn't eat the chicken
after about 10 mins. pick it up and put it away for the next feeding.
No treats or snacks in between. Don't beg your dog to eat or get
upset if she doesn't. Eventually she'll eat the chicken because a
healthy dog won't starve itself to death. I see this as a win/win
deal for both of you. Your dog gets more variety and you don't have to
break the bank offering it. KathyM

Messages in this topic (23)
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8c. Re: not eating
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hanson_jenlynn"
<hanson_jenlynn@...> wrote:
>
> i have been feeding my dog raw for about 2 1/2months now and
> she has
> been loving it. however she recently has decided that she
> won't eat her raw chicken.

Your dog will be just as healthy if she never eats chicken again.
However, picky eaters are made and not born and you are making a
picky eater. I don't allow my dogs to tell me what they won't eat.
If they don't eat something, after about 10 minutes of no interest,
I take it up and put it in the fridge only to bring it out next
meal. I repeat this step until that particular thing is eaten. My
dogs know they won't get fussed at if they don't eat but they don't
get anything else until that item is eaten.

Today it was chicken, tomorrow it may be pork, the next day it may
be beef. What are you going to do then? The solution is not to let
that mindset creep into your dogs minds. If they gain nothing from
being picky, that behavior will soon stop.

> and what if she never returns to eating chicken?

Then plan on your dog food buget increasing greatly.

> is that a problem?

Not for the dog but it is for your pocketbook.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (23)
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9a. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:37 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/14/2007 2:43:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Debbie"
writes:

I've been *lurking* here for a while now, and thought I'd say hi.
Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided, it's been very
reassuring during my transition to RAW.

****
Hi, Deb,

I've lived in Kentucky for 35 years, but Alabama's still "my home.: Roll
Tide, Roll!

Lynda

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Papillon on raw
Posted by: "engel_a_amy" engel_a_amy@yahoo.com engel_a_amy
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:37 pm ((PST))

I have an 11 month old papillon that I just recently switched to a raw
diet(less than 2 weeks ago). The only problem is that everytime I look
for him in the house, he is in his crate waiting for more food! I fed
him almost 7oz of food today with no ill effects(yet), but that is way
more than the 3% of his adult weight(7#) that is recommended. He has
always been a super picky eater and I am glad he loves to eat now, but
I certainly don't want to go overboard. Any advise?
Thanks,
Amy

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Papillon on raw
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "engel_a_amy" <engel_a_amy@...>
wrote:
>
> > I certainly don't want to go overboard. Any advise?

I feed puppies all they can eat. If they get plump, I reduce the number
of feedings per day. I prefer that they learn to self regulate. As they
mature, I move them onto the gorge and fast plan, and increase/decrease
the size of the gorge meals according to the thinness/plumpness of the
individual dog. If your pup is looking for more food, sounds like he in
hungry!

Carrie

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Papillon on raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:40 pm ((PST))

What Carrie said!!

Teeny littles often need more than just 3% of their body weight, even as
adults.

TC
Giselle

>
> I feed puppies all they can eat. If they get plump, I reduce the number
> of feedings per day. I prefer that they learn to self regulate. As they
> mature, I move them onto the gorge and fast plan, and increase/decrease
> the size of the gorge meals according to the thinness/plumpness of the
> individual dog. If your pup is looking for more food, sounds like he in
> hungry!
>
> Carrie
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: Papillon on raw
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:16 pm ((PST))

I have a 2 1/2 year old Pap a, 10 year old one and a 11 1/2 and theyget more then 2 % of their body weight. I feed what they will eat to their tolerance
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:09 pm ((PST))

Kathy, thanks very much for the input. They havent been chewing them yet...but since they have stripped them I will go ahead and toss them...and actually they are "hindquarter" bones...not like the spindly actual leg parts... does that make a difference?

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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11b. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

Actually they arent the real legs but rather.....bigger bones.... I deboned a hindquarter and a shoulder and left a good bit of meat on them to entertain the kids.....thats what I mean by leg bones....does this make a difference. I didnt mean the actual legs...these are larger..dogs arent chewing them...just draggin them around and acting like the little predators they are. :-) Since I brought home 3 more tonite I will go ahead and toss these 2, but for future knowledge....

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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11c. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

Thanks very much Bill! Your comments and advice are much appreciated.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (9)
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11d. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:40 pm ((PST))

*** Biologically speaking, as long as the meat has been exposed to air,
it is unlikely to harbor dangerous anaerobic bacteria. Physically
speaking, if the dogs have been chewing on bones denuded of meat, it is
time to remove the bones lest they become wreck bones rather than rec
bones.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (9)
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11e. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
and actually they are "hindquarter" bones...not like the spindly
actual leg parts... does that make a difference?

Hi Michelle,
I don't think it makes a difference because inedible bone is inedible
bone no matter where it comes from. Bones that are too dense to be
eaten by a dog, some of the definition of too dense relates to the
size of the dog and some bones, such as beef legs.., are just too hard
for any dog, wear down a dog's teeth or crack a tooth in an attempt by
a dog to turn the inedible into the edible. If your dog is chewing on
a bone and isn't making any progress, the bone should be removed. I
offer cow legs, hide and hoof attached, and remove them when they are
bare naked bones. Removing the hide and sinew and whatever is a great
dental workout, but after that is accomplished the legs serve no
purpose. Two of my dogs just leave cow leg bones when they are
stripped, but my lab tries to eat the bone, and so i just pick up and
toss. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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