Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 26, 2007

Friday, October 26, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12210

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Puppy with problem
From: afurzmom
1b. Re: Puppy with problem
From: amvilppu

2a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Sheryl Edelen

3a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: tlduran1
3b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: 8 year old with sugar
From: Laurie Swanson
4b. Re: 8 year old with sugar
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

5a. New to feeding raw
From: Monica Moore
5b. Re: New to feeding raw
From: amvilppu

6. Dalmation with renal disease
From: Cindy Wells

7a. New to raw - made mistakes - update
From: Cindy Wells
7b. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - update
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
From: Josephine Morningstar
8b. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
From: Casey Post

9a. Re: Marrow bone question
From: Julie Raymond
9b. Re: Marrow bone question
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: Marrow bone question
From: costrowski75

10a. Pig feet
From: amvilppu
10b. Re: Pig feet
From: costrowski75
10c. Re: Pig feet
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11.1. Newbie with questions
From: currysmax

12a. Re: best suppliers?
From: amvilppu
12b. Re: best suppliers?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

13a. Re: older dog having difficulty digesting bone
From: Kim

14. Transitioning My Five Dogs
From: Stephanie

Messages
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1a. Re: Puppy with problem
Posted by: "afurzmom" havamomma@gmail.com afurzmom
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:08 pm ((PDT))

We do have a vet apt. on Monday. That's the soonest I could get her in
unless I go the ER vet route.

I hesitate to do that since she has NO other symptoms of anything. Her
temp is normal. She's happy and playing like normal... As long as she
isn't eating. :o(

I drove 80 miles after work to get slippery elm. Will try this
tonight. Thanks.
Michelle

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Puppy with problem
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > She only weighs about 5 lbs. She can't go on like this for long. :o(
>
>
> Michelle,
>
> If this were my puppy, I'd take her to the vet to make sure that you're not
> seeing something more serious, like Parvo.
>
> Casey
>
I agree our puppy has giardia right now, and she didn't even present with symptoms (which
sound like your pups), it just came up in a stool check. Better safe to rule out something
medical if dietary changes don't explain the upset. If I were you, no need to mention food to
the vet, we don't.

Annaliisa, Drew, and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Sheryl Edelen" sophiiblu@yahoo.com sophiiblu
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

I'm also a great believer in the power of Parmesean cheese. Cut the liver into bite sized chunks and then sprinkle it on there. I also try to feed liver coming off a fast day, when I know everyone's really ready to eat.

Just my tips...BTW, hey everyone! I just realized recently that I've been feeding raw for a year !~ (actually 13 months, but I forgot my own anniversary). I must say that, blessedly, it's been a pretty smooth journey for me, my two cats and two dogs. There's been some vomiting, powdery stools and adventures feeding liver, fish and processing food that looks back at me (remind me sometime to tell you guys about how I cut the meat off a donated deer head and accidentally poked it in the eye! UGH!!!!

Anyway, I just wanted to thank the more experienced feeders on the list for putting up with my inexperienced questions and being responsive. That helped a lot. I had a rawfeeding friend here tell me she was amazed at how I embraced rawfeeding when I heard about it. It just seemed so logical, and over the past year, it's really not been much of a hassle. Thanks again, everyone. :)

Sheryl Edelen and the Gang - Mia, Eleanor, Robert Earl and Faith

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Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "tlduran1" tlduran1@yahoo.com tlduran1
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Hard light colored stools are normal with
> > chicken. As long as it's not white and powdery, don't be
> > concerned.

******* I apologize if this has been addressed numerous times, but I am
wondering why "white and powdery" poops is bad???

Thanks in advance
Tara

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:14 pm ((PDT))

That is an indication too much bone is being fed.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tlduran1" <tlduran1@yahoo.com>

******* I apologize if this has been addressed numerous times, but I am
wondering why "white and powdery" poops is bad???

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: 8 year old with sugar
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

What are you feeding?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "raeminpin24" <raeminpin24@...>
wrote:
> but I still can not regulate her sugar, dose anyone have this
promblom
> or advise to help me?

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: 8 year old with sugar
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/26/2007 6:46:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"raeminpin24" writes:

I started the raw diet 2 weeks ago today and my min pin has sugar and
allergies. The allergies have went down more than I have ever seen them
but I still can not regulate her sugar, dose anyone have this promblom
or advise to help me?

***
You are absolutely going in the right direction. This website is by a vet
who specializes in diabetic cats but I have no doubt that what she says is also
true for dogs.

_http://yourdiabeticcat.com/_ (http://yourdiabeticcat.com/)

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. New to feeding raw
Posted by: "Monica Moore" blucrzr@yahoo.com blucrzr
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I have been reading and learning for the past couple of weeks, and very much enjoying this list. I thought I would introduce myself and my dog. My name is Monica Moore and I have a nearly 2 year old Miniature Poodle named Sammy. He has been on raw only now for about 2 weeks, and I think he thinks he died and went to heaven! We got him when he was 8 months old, he was severely underweight at just over 6 lbs. It has been an uphill battle to try to put weight on him and keep it on, he just was not a big eater. His breeder feeds raw, but we did not buy him from her, we bought him from a second breeder that did a sort of modified raw diet.... k***le and raw mixed.

I admit, I have never fed raw, so it took me some time to come around to the idea. Like a lot of people, I thought it would be too expensive, thought it would be too messy, he's going to choke on those bones, etc. Fast forward to a year later, and he is 7 1/2 lbs and still about two pounds or more underweight. I had started feeding him an occassional chicken wing, which he ate, and then wouldn't eat again for a few days, I guess in the hopes of more chicken. I have a new agility trainer, who has fed raw for many years. She was very patient and answered a lot of questions and gave me a chub of tripe to try with Sammy. Needless to say, he loved it! Once we made the decision to go raw, he hasn't had anything else.

One thing we can't get over is how excited he is to eat now. Whenever I bring his food out, he just about does handstands!

We weighed him a week after he had started eating raw only, and he gained almost a whole POUND!! He is up to 8 1/2 lbs, or was when we weighed him, finally is starting to feel solid, like a Poodle should feel. His energy level is UP, his coat has improved and already his breath is better. I should have done this a long time ago, but I had to get my head around it.

We have been feeding him a lot of chicken, mainly because we got a good price on chicken legs. I give him a leg in the morning and then another at night. Every other day I give him green tripe along with the leg. I need to get some liver, from what I am reading here, how much do you suggest giving him, if i were to do a little every day? Maybe about an inch cube?

Thanks for listening to an excited owner whose dog FINALLY is eating!

Monica and Sammy in San Jose, CA, with Ebony waiting at the bridge (It's about *time* she figured out what I wanted to eat!)

http://community.webshots.com/user/blucrzr

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: New to feeding raw
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:21 pm ((PDT))

>
> We have been feeding him a lot of chicken, mainly because we got a good price on
chicken legs. I give him a leg in the morning and then another at night. Every other day I
give him green tripe along with the leg. I need to get some liver, from what I am reading
here, how much do you suggest giving him, if i were to do a little every day? Maybe about an
inch cube?
>
Congratulations Monica and Sammy on your new happy and healthy adventures in raw! I'm
new at this too, but it sounds like Sammy's diet may be a bit bone heavy with two legs a day.
I buy whole chickens and make sure that I feed the whole thing (spread out over meals) so
that Laila gets enough meat. The nice thing about the whole chicken is that it comes with the
liver and heart too. We started with a smidgen of chicken liver to make sure she could
tolerate it, which she did and then increased from there. Other dogs have a hard time with
liver at first. And Sammy is pretty small. Laila is 25 lbs and only 17 weeks! Good luck and
keep reading. You'll learn everything you need to know here!

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (11)
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6. Dalmation with renal disease
Posted by: "Cindy Wells" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I have a friend with a 12 yr old femal dal. she has gone thru many
chemo treatments and just diagnosed with renal disease. i suggested
she check out this group and the possibility of switching her loved
one to raw feeding. Do you believe this would be a good diet for a
dog of this age and the health problems she is suffering. She has
dropped 20 lbs in the last 2 months.

Your opinions are much appreciated.

Cindy

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. New to raw - made mistakes - update
Posted by: "Cindy Wells" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone!

Thank you all for the advice. I trimmed all fat and skin from the
chicken and gave Sam 2 tbs of pumpkin (he loved) for 3 days. It
appears to have cleared up the poo problem from what I can tell. At
least nothing on the carpet; he's very vain and does not like to be
seen going poo.. but has been clean on the fur of the hind quarters..
a good sign.

Thank you again,

Cindy and Sam!!!

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - update
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:36 pm ((PDT))

"Cindy Wells" <cwells5@...> wrote:
I trimmed all fat and skin from the
> chicken and gave Sam 2 tbs of pumpkin (he loved) for 3 days. It
> appears to have cleared up the poo problem from what I can tell.
*****
No, the pumpkin may not have cleared anything, just stoppered up a
natural process. The test of whether his poo problem is cleared up is
what happens when you quit using the pumpkin.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

On 10/25/07, Casey Post <mikken@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> **I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused - chemo for hypothyroidism? I know about
> radioactive iodine for hyperthyroidism, but ...oh wait - are you saying
> that
> this service dog was treated for a cancer that he didn't have?

yep. backing up other service dog she had died of cardio myopathy last of
march 2007. he was almost 10 yrs old and without warning he had a heart
attack and dropped down dead.. being a service dog for mobility for my
cousin. she had to get another one.

is used to dobermans, likes them.. was in rescue herself for 35 yrs (one of
original 3 founders of the new england doberman rescue ) so she opted to
rescue a new doberman to train as her mobility service dog.

out of 10 possibles. she went with kobe.. who had been in the rescue as an
owner drop off for less then a week, but they had taken him to their vet in
the first day or so, and were waiting on the labs to come back. that was
april this year.

a copy of the labs never came to us, when asked the rescue said nothing
wrong in the labs.

get woke up one morning with huge swelling in neck looked like he swallowed
a tennis ball. took to vet. no obstruction, but glands really swollen. she
rushed him to tufts vet college in grafton ma, they thought cancer, so tried
to do a needle biopsy but not enough. so they took two lymph nodes from him
that same day.one from the left front shoulder and one from the right rear
leg. shoulder one was more enlarged then the back leg, but they were both
larger then normal.

and they also started him on chemo. vincristine and L-asparaginase very
specific drugs that target certain areas and stop the growth of cancer
cells.

2nd week of chemo.. nothing definitive in the biopsy that they could
actually pinpoint as cancer. so they sent off for a *stain*

day before 3rd week of chemo.. she gets the lab results for the thyriod
testing from the RESCUE.. with the post it note.. oh.. i forgot to send you
these when they came in. that was a wk after my cousin had adopted the dog
and taken him home.. so all this time the dog was supposed to have been on
meds for hypothyroidism which the lab papers said was very severe case of
it.

3rd week of chemo.. of course tufts wants to continue with the chemo.. BUT
the stain only proved that it is not mast cell cancer (good news) BUT they
dont know what it is.. and he is now on different chemo and not doing as
well.

about the only thing that i can convince my cousin to feed him is to add
tripe to his meal. he does seem to be able to keep food down with that help

and tonight he crowed out my dog for the last chunk of ckn leg quarter.. and
she let him.

> **Tripe and raw chicken would be a fine plan for weeks, if need be -
> especially if that's what you have available and that's what this poor
> beast
> is tolerating right now.
>
>
> **I'm hoping you've got your account set up to receive individual emails
> and can read this.

yes.. i get individual emails.. and have gotten them. but gmail treats my
sent mail as my own post recieved.. when its not been .. so i do not always
know when my posts have gone thru the list or not.. that is what is causing
me so much confusion. i think i have sent the reply.. and it never got
there. im really bummed out by that.

thank you for answering me though. i really do appreciate it.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

> day before 3rd week of chemo.. she gets the lab results for the thyriod
> testing from the RESCUE.. with the post it note.. oh.. i forgot to send
> you
> these when they came in. that was a wk after my cousin had adopted the
> dog
> and taken him home.. so all this time the dog was supposed to have been on
> meds for hypothyroidism which the lab papers said was very severe case of
> it.

Goodness! How distressing for you all.

> about the only thing that i can convince my cousin to feed him is to add
> tripe to his meal. he does seem to be able to keep food down with that
> help
>
> and tonight he crowed out my dog for the last chunk of ckn leg quarter..
> and
> she let him.

Ha! The dog knows what's good food!

> yes.. i get individual emails.. and have gotten them. but gmail treats my
> sent mail as my own post recieved.. when its not been .. so i do not
> always
> know when my posts have gone thru the list or not.. that is what is
> causing
> me so much confusion. i think i have sent the reply.. and it never got
> there. im really bummed out by that.

It came through this end fine. I notice that it's set to CC you - maybe
that's where some of the confusion comes in?

>
> thank you for answering me though. i really do appreciate it.

You're welcome! Best of luck to your friend's dog. Service dogs are a
special breed (no matter what their breed is!).

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Marrow bone question
Posted by: "Julie Raymond" marrat1@hotmail.com ratgryphon
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

Personally, I think it depends on the dog. Sonny has no interest in
gnawing on marrow bones (and he's a pit bull... go figure). He scrapes
off the little bit of meat on the outside and then licks out the
marrow. He may nibble on the edges a bit, but once all the meat and
marrow is gone he walks away from it. However, I supervise chewing so I
KNOW he's not overdoing it and I know his habits. Marrow bones make
great babysitters when I need to clean the house without him getting
under foot and into mischief.

In answer to your first question: You can feed either frozen or thawed.
A frozen marrow bone is a great summer treat, and it takes longer for
them to get the marrow out, thus stretching out the "keeping the dog
out of trouble" factor. But please, be careful and vigilant the first
time you give a marrow bone if you decide to try it. Any sign of
intense gnawing (trying to put the whole mouth around it, using a lot
of force to chew) means your dog shouldn't have it-- too risky.

Julie & Sonny

Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: Marrow bone question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

"reachpanda" <reachpanda@...> wrote:
I just bought some cut marrow bones from the
> store for my dogs. Do I give it to them still frozen or let it thaw
> first?
*****
Option 3: throw them out.

Marrow bones are iffy propositions at best; cut marrow bones are just
not even worth messing with. There are other--meatier--bones you can
buy, there are other meatier body parts to feed.

Option 4: scoop out the marrow THEN throw out the bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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9c. Re: Marrow bone question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I know many don't feed them but I have for many years.
> My dogs/puppies like to chew on things & have various toys but the
bones
> will keep them busy. When they get bored with pulling the meat & some
> chewing, I throw them away:
*****
Where do you find marrow bones with pullable meat on them?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Pig feet
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

I saw pig feet at the store tonight and was wondering if they are considered weight bearing
bones. They look awfully fatty to be, but also potentially tasty. Does anyone feed them?

Annaliisa, Drew, and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Pig feet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

"amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:
>
> I saw pig feet at the store tonight and was wondering if they are
considered weight bearing
> bones.
*****
Officially, yes. Feet are gonna bear weight, can't around that.
However, pig trotters come from young pigs, just as chicken legs come
from young birds. Insofar as you want to, virtually eveything pig is
feedable.

They look awfully fatty to be, but also potentially tasty. Does
anyone feed them?
*****
The are fatty, and bony, too. They are too small for my dogs but I
feed a larger version (cleverly called "long feet") that carry a
decent though not lavish amount of meat: these keep my dogs occupied
and happy and well fed.

If you saw sliced feet, I recommend you ask for or keep looking for
unsliced feet that will be a greater challenge to you dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Pig feet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:03 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/26/2007 7:17:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
amvilppu@hotmail.com writes:

I saw pig feet at the store tonight and was wondering if they are considered
weight bearing
bones. They look awfully fatty to be, but also potentially tasty. Does anyone
feed them?

Annaliisa,

i buy a case of pig feet about every 2 or 3 months.. they are great for
keeping puppies busy, and they aren't so dense that they will cause broken teeth in
most dogs (might be a different story for tiny dog folks).

they are mostly cartilage, fat, bones and skin.. almost no meat, so not
really a meal type item. i do add them to meals for my quick eaters to keep them
busy while the slow eaters eat. And i give them to the akita and great dane
pups when i think that giving them something to eat will shut them up or keep
them busy, but they don't really need another meal.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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11.1. Newbie with questions
Posted by: "currysmax" currysmax@embarqmail.com currysmax
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

I am very new and have been scouring over the posts for learning. Have
not yet started the raw feeding, still researching.

I have an 8 year old German Shepherd, dominant female and is the alpha
dog of our household but doesn't cause problems as long as I do not
bring in another alpha bitch. 2 male chihuahua's, 6 months & 3 months
and of all things a mini male poodle just over 1 yr.

My question is this: When you feed raw rabbit, etc. will this cause
the dog to chase live food such as livestock, getting into the rabbit
cages, etc?

Thanks in advance,
Kimberly

Messages in this topic (34)
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12a. Re: best suppliers?
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

hi Guys,
> I'm just wondering where all of you get your raw stuff, if it's already processed
> together with the bones and organ meat (as is the Nature's Variety) or
> if you do that part yourselves, or maybe your dogs are more inclined
> towards chicken wings etc.>
> also what are the various prices? we're in San Diego if that makes any
> difference.
>
Hi Rachel-

We are in San Diego (Point Loma/Ocean Beach area). Thus far the cheapest meat we have
found is at Smart and Final, Costco and on the military base (although this is not an option
for people not in the military). We are pretty new to raw too and are still searching out
markets and looking for great deals. I was just contacted by a woman responding to my
craigslist add about meat who said she makes her own dog food ( I think she cooks it-yuk
yuk) and she said she would send me info when she found out about deals or if she
wanted to go in on a bulk order of meat together. I will send along any info I get from her.
We, like most everyone on this site, feed whole meat chunks with and without bone
(depending on the meat) and organs. This would be the preferred way for your dog to eat
so that he can use his jaws to eat the meat and bone and polish his teeth. If I gave my
puppy a choice between something ground or a chunk of meat she would choose the
ground meat because it requires no work. So I would recommend ditching the costly
premade formula and tossing the dog a hunk of meat and bone. I am sure that more
experienced posters can give you more advice on the transition as your dog may at first be
resistant to this. As an aside, I would recommend some meatier pieces than just a chicken
wing, as that is very high in bone. If you have your heart set on Premade there is a store
called Point Loma Pet Pantry (I think that's the name) on Voltaire and Chatsworth in Point
Loma. Good luck and happy to meet another raw feeder in SD. Where are you guys
located?

Annaliisa, Drew, and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: best suppliers?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:12 pm ((PDT))

Rachael and Annaliisa,

in CA we have the distinct benefit of having one of the best meat buying
groups in the country. we get GREAT deals on a great variety of meats on and off
the bone.

SoCalBarf.com go to the FAQ page and read the instructions..

and for finding deals in the grocery stores here is a handy website:

_http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3_ (http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3)

But the best way to find meat sources is to go to the yahoo group Carnivore
Feeder/Supplier and put your location in the subject line. And the "Lis list".

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: older dog having difficulty digesting bone
Posted by: "Kim" two-pups@comcast.net jedikim8
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Kim" <two-pups@> wrote:
> > I know she needs bone for the calcium, etc, but I don't want the
> poor girl throwing up everytime she has bone.
> >
> > Is this common in older dogs? Does anyone have any suggestions?
> For example, should I stop giving her bone and add supplements?
> *****
> My seniors had problems eating the bones, but once in there was no
> particular bone-specific digestion issues. And IMO nine and a half
> is not old. What other health issues are present?

****************
Thanks for the responses. Here's some additional info...
No other health issues are present (that I am aware of).
****************

> My first thought is perhaps you are feeding too much bone. A pork
> neck is rarely a meaty-enough meal, so while the meal size
may "suit" her needs, most of it is bone. You may also be feeding
chicken parts that are too bony. My first recco would be to cut back
on edible bone.

************************
I haven't read this list for probably 2-3 years, and after reading
most of the posts that have come up since I asked my question, I
agree that I probably am feeding too much bone. Anytime I feed
chicken - and that is fairly frequently, it always has bone in it.
Even if just the breast - it still has rib bones. I thought the pork
neckbones would be ok as a meal if I then gave something meaty the
following day. Sounds like it would be better for me to give
additional meat with the pork necks and, as suggested, decrease bony
meals in general. I'm glad I came back to this list. I've read
posts that contained a lot of good suggestions and think there are
other changes I could make that would be an improvement in the way I
feed my dogs. Thanks everyone!
************************
>
> I also recommend you review any changes in meal times, suppliers--
> lifestyle changes that might affect her eating habits. Stress is a
> great one for screwing up patterns.

**********************
The only change here was the addition of a puppy back in June, but
Kasi's troubles seem to be within the last few weeks. She gained
some weight since the pup came (I gave her treats too when she
would 'sit', 'down', 'stand', etc when I was training the pup) so
I've been trying to cut her meal sizes down. I think she may digest
her food very quickly (fed 1x/day ~ 5:30 pm) and then have an empty
stomach at night which sometimes causes her to throw up
yellow 'bile'. And since the meals are often bony, that could be an
additional irritatation.
***********************
>
> Check her teeth/mouth to make sure something's not awry in there.
> She might be swallowing large what she once crunched down. If the
> bones are going down bigger than before she's more likely to be
> digestively done with them before they're small enough to move on.
>
************************
From what I can see, her teeth/mouth seem ok. I'll cut back on bony
meals and see how that goes. Thanks again!
************************
>
> Please let us know what you discover.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. Transitioning My Five Dogs
Posted by: "Stephanie" Sgagos@aol.com sgagos69
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:32 pm ((PDT))

I just want to say I'm glad to have found this group. I have
five dogs, two of which are senior. As of two days ago we have
transitioned them to raw. I am using your archives to get as much
info as I can before asking a question. Just glad that there is a
place to get support. Thanks in advance.
Stephanie

Messages in this topic (1)
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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12209

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
From: Josephine Morningstar

2a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: jennifer_hell
2b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: jennifer_hell

3a. Re: Puppy with problem
From: Casey Post
3b. Re: Puppy with problem
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: Throwing up black vomit
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Throwing up black vomit
From: pelle567

5a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: jennifer_hell
6b. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Andrea
6c. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: moemahood@aol.com
6d. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Tina Berry

7a. best suppliers?
From: Rachel Amov
7b. Re: best suppliers?
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: best suppliers?
From: moemahood@aol.com
7d. Re: best suppliers?
From: rosey031801

8a. Marrow bone question
From: reachpanda
8b. Re: Marrow bone question
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: Marrow bone question
From: Tina Berry
8d. Re: Marrow bone question
From: T Smith

9a. Pig Skins
From: kjdaughtridge
9b. Re: Pig Skins
From: Tina Berry
9c. Re: Pig Skins
From: Tina Berry

10a. 8 year old with sugar
From: raeminpin24
10b. Re: 8 year old with sugar
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:44 pm ((PDT))

totally agree.. and i promote raw feeding every place i go that someone
stops and remarks about how great Heather looks.. or makes a remark about
her eating me out of house and home..

i think? i have converted a lot of people this way.. i sure see them
perusing the mark down meats at the grocery store more often..

On 10/26/07, rosey031801 <rosey031801@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I have an 11 year old border mix that has been on raw for over a year
> and he has never been healthier and happier. I would switch any dog you
> can, even if it's old...
> Cheryl

Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

Bless you, Bill! I feel a little better now. I just feed too much bone
if I don't get the hearts into her (I know, I know- reathe, don't
sweat!). The venison I got are ribs and parts of the leg, quite some
meat on them but not enough.
I caved tonight- I pretended to take something out of our casserole
and swirled the hearts with the spoon I used in it. She got about a
drop of pasta sauce on her hearts, and found them delicious then. Oh
well, sometimes it's all psychological. Lol!!!

Jennifer with Mandy, who got more venison after eating the hearts and
loved it.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> Jennifer,
> Don't sweat the small stuff. Don't worry about muscle meat and
> bone. She is doing fine. Hard light colored stools are normal with
> chicken. As long as it's not white and powdery, don't be
> concerned. Every poop is not going to be perfect consistancy. Each
> will be different.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
(I know, I know- reathe, don't
> sweat!)

- Meh, I meant breathe, of course!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Puppy with problem
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

> She only weighs about 5 lbs. She can't go on like this for long. :o(

Michelle,

If this were my puppy, I'd take her to the vet to make sure that you're not
seeing something more serious, like Parvo.

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Puppy with problem
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Michelle,

There are many causes for diarrhea in a puppy. At the very least, I would
have a stool sample run. No need to tell them what she is eating....make
them look at the dog, not blame diet!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "afurzmom" <havamomma@gmail.com>

It seems like anything I feed her brings on another round of liquid
stools. She's exhausted and so am I.

I recently lost my vet (he moved to a clinic 50 miles away), and I
hesitate to take her to a new vet because I KNOW they'll blame the raw
feeding. Please help!

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Throwing up black vomit
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

"Jenn" <jennswisher@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Last night my hound threw up three times, and it was a black,
sticky
> material with a little grass and a few bone chunks.
>
> About 9 hours earlier he ate a 1/2 chicken, the night prior he ate
> canned mackerel, and two nights prior he had pork chops (no bone).
> These are all things he eats regularly.
*****
Both dark, oily fish and dirt are known to produce the vomit you
describe. If he is acting like his old self, I think you can blame
oily fish (sardines are especially nasty when vomited). If he shows
signs of abdominal discomfort, if he continues to vomit or wretches
unproductively, if he's clearly not the kid you know and love, take
him to the vet.

Don't allow fear of reprisal stop you. If diet becomes an issue,
either blame his intake on garbage can raiding, or tell the vet you
feed raw food and you'll be happy to debate the issue LATER.

Let us know how this resolves.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Throwing up black vomit
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:39 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like blood...maybe he has an ulcer. I would take him to the
vet.

Katie
Brutus
China
Fred
Barley

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:40 pm ((PDT))

"marclre" <marclre@...> wrote:
Another didn't seem
> discernably bothered by the mix. In any case commercial food is
crap so I say dump it and
> switch cold turkey. Never had a problem with that yet.
*****
There are too many dogs eating kibble topped off with raw meat to
think that--unequivocally--the two cannot be fed in the same meal.
It is a waste of energy to try to convince kibble/raw meat feeders
that what they're doing is causing disgestive upset, because clearly
it is not.

The real issue is what you say and continues to be that: commercial
food is crap. Feeding raw meat with kibble does not fix kibble;
feeding kibble with or without raw meat is still feeding crap.

Needless to say, Marie-Claire, I agree with you. Dump the kibble.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:17 pm ((PDT))

What to do if the dog doesn't eat it? Can you throw it in the pan for
a very short time, or pour a little boiling water on it, or does that
destroy really everything? I already dread the day when I'll try to
give it to Mandy who hates everything glibbery.

Jennifer, who tries really hard not to sweat it (but fails miserably)

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:27 pm ((PDT))

There are lots of ways to get a dog to start eating liver! You just
have to be a little sneaky sometimes.

- Freeze it. Some dogs don't like the squidgy texture
- Quickly sear it to make it smell better
- Chop it up and mix it with green tripe or any other bribe food
- Cut deep slits in regular food and shove small pieces of liver in
there
- Pretend you are going to eat it and grudgingly share it with your
pooch
But above all the one I use is the following:
- Tell pooch that you decide what is on the menu and saying "I don't
want this" is not an option. Liver gets fed before the rest of the
meal and if it isn't eaten the rest of dinner goes back in the
fridge. You may have a rough battle at first, but if you don't
give in it makes for much smoother sailing down the line.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> What to do if the dog doesn't eat it?

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

Jennifer, who tries really hard not to sweat it (but fails miserably)

Jennifer, I used to mix up my liver with ground meat and eggs and stuff to hide it.? My two refused liver the first few times it was offered but now take it willingly.? Some will saute it for a second or two, but I'm too lazy.?

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

"I already dread the day when I'll try to give it to Mandy who hates
everything glibbery."

LOL my one male had to start off with frozen before he would eat it raw and
oozey.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. best suppliers?
Posted by: "Rachel Amov" gypsyfiddler@cox.net gypsyfiddler
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:22 pm ((PDT))

hi Guys,

I have a relatively new dog now, a small Anatolian Shepherd Dog who
LOVES the food from "Nature's Variety" sold by a local store called
Holistic Hound. I'm guessing that it might be more expensive than
some, but I'm not sure. I see, on my other list, the BARF Suppliers
list, only one company, Creston Valley Meats and I'm just wondering
where all of you get your raw stuff, if it's already processed
together with the bones and organ meat (as is the Nature's Variety) or
if you do that part yourselves, or maybe your dogs are more inclined
towards chicken wings etc. (Bauer will just bury those, and dog bones,
though he does dig up bones and chaw on them at various times he is
absolutely addicted to the pre-mixed stuff that comes in a sort of
hamburger patty shape and texture (sort of).

Rachel

also what are the various prices? we're in San Diego if that makes any
difference.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: best suppliers?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:40 pm ((PDT))

Rachel,

Just buy some nice whole chickens, large pork or beef roasts, lamb
shoulders, etc and let your dog do his own processing. He's got wonderful
teeth that need to be kept healthy by doing his own chewing.

Stay away from the mixes with all of their inappropriate ingredients, stay
away from ground, stay away from "dog bones"....you can buy everything you
require at your local grocery store. Just start out with some nice whole
chickens, cut them into halves or quarters and hand to dog. Easy and
inexpensive.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Rachel Amov" <gypsyfiddler@cox.net>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: best suppliers?
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

I'm just wondering
where all of you get your raw stuff, if it's already processed
together with the bones and organ meat (as is the Nature's Variety) or
if you do that part yourselves, or maybe your dogs are more inclined
towards chicken wings etc.

Rachel, I buy my meat in various places.? I order online from www.prey4pets.com and I get some stuff free from hunters and freecycle.? Also, I buy some stuff at the grocery store and/or price club.? I do not feed any premixes because they are too expensive.? Usually I keep the stuff I buy to an average of 1.50 a lb and then when I get the free stuff I'm happy.?

I have never feed any premixed food -- so I'm not sure what all goes into them.?

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: best suppliers?
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Rachel,
I just shop at the local grocery stores. I guess you are new here. Read
and read these messages. You will learn just how easy it is to shop at
the store and hand the meat to your dog without any fancy prep work. I
get mostly chicken quarters for my dog. He loves it.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Marrow bone question
Posted by: "reachpanda" reachpanda@hotmail.com reachpanda
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

OK, dumb newbie question. I just bought some cut marrow bones from the
store for my dogs. Do I give it to them still frozen or let it thaw
first?

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Marrow bone question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:33 pm ((PDT))

Neither...take them back! :) Seriously they are nothing more than tooth
breakers and wearers. Don't feed them.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "reachpanda" <reachpanda@hotmail.com>

OK, dumb newbie question. I just bought some cut marrow bones from the
store for my dogs. Do I give it to them still frozen or let it thaw
first?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Marrow bone question
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

Neither...take them back! :) Seriously they are nothing more than tooth
breakers and wearers. Don't feed them.

Ditto - been there done that - if they don't break their teeth, if given
often they wear their teeth right down.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: Marrow bone question
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

I know many don't feed them but I have for many years.
My dogs/puppies like to chew on things & have various toys but the bones
will keep them busy. When they get bored with pulling the meat & some
chewing, I throw them away: unless they bury them out back :-)
I know they can break teeth, etc but I also know it keeps many dogs/pups out
of trouble ;-)
It keeps my three 11 yr olds, my 16 yo & others who can't get around much
something to do instead of nothing. My blind/deaf guy loves them.
Trina

On 10/26/07, reachpanda <reachpanda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> OK, dumb newbie question. I just bought some cut marrow bones from the
> store for my dogs. Do I give it to them still frozen or let it thaw
> first?
>
> Andrea
>
> _
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Pig Skins
Posted by: "kjdaughtridge" kjdaughtridge@yahoo.com kjdaughtridge
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone, I've been feeding raw for about 4 1/2 months and
everything's going great. My shepherd mix and greyhound are loving it.
I've posted once or twice...but for the most part we've had no real
problems.

I saw some raw pork skins at one of the grocery stores for about 70
cents/lb. It was just the skin, no meat, all neatly folded up like a
sheet. My question is, is there any benefit in feeding the skin alone
like this? Obviously, I wouldn't make a whole mean out of it, but is
there any reason I should or shouldn't feed it like that? I'm thinking
this might be more of a fun snack kind of thing for them. Any thoughts?

The beef and pork I feed typically doesn't have skin on it unless I
get a pork shoulder. I do feed them chicken and turkey with the skin.

-Kathleen D.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Pig Skins
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

"My question is, is there any benefit in feeding the skin alone like this?"

Nope - and if it's white in color, it's been bleached which is even worse.
Like tripe purchased in the grocery store.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: Pig Skins
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

"I do feed them chicken and turkey with the skin."

Yes, the whole bird (well, not in one sitting, but yes on feeding it all)
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. 8 year old with sugar
Posted by: "raeminpin24" raeminpin24@yahoo.com raeminpin24
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

Thanx Rae Nicholson

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: 8 year old with sugar
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT))

Rae,

What do you mean sugar allergies? Where is she getting sugar in a raw
diet...there shouldn't be any!

Do you mean diabetes where you have to regulate her glucose levels?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "raeminpin24" <raeminpin24@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12208

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Kathleen Hunter
1c. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: marclre
1d. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Blood in poo
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
From: Greta Hill

4. Throwing up black vomit
From: Jenn

5a. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Susanne MacLeod
5c. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Susanne MacLeod

6a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Tina Berry
6c. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: Elk organs
From: marclre
7b. Re: Elk organs
From: chandler_baby
7c. Re: Elk organs
From: Laura Atkinson

8a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: marieandthefuzzybunch
8b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
From: rosey031801
8c. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
From: Anntiga@aol.com

9a. Re: Raw feeding a chiuauah... in Mexico.
From: tiffany fontenot

10. More reasons to go raw!
From: marlena_adema

11a. Somebody kill me NOW
From: jennifer_hell
11b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: carnesbill

12a. Puppy with problem
From: afurzmom
12b. Re: Puppy with problem
From: Andrea

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:56 am ((PDT))

The problem isn't salmonella, it is the fact that you are feeding two
kinds of food that digest at different rates. Raw food is digested
very quickly while cooked ki**le takes its time. When both are fed
at the same time you can definitely expect digestive uspet.

> They called and told my DH that there was bone in the stool and the
> presence of bone with diarrhea could only be Salmonella.

That's a load of hooey. Did they actually test the stool for
salmonella or did they just assume that is the only reason?

> That dogs are not in the wild and would not be exposed to
> Salmonella in the wild, so it had to be the chicken.

Exposed or not, a dog has very strong stomach acid and a short
digestive tract, both of which make it very difficult for salmonella
to start a colony even if it is introduced into the body. If a dog
eats food that has salmonella in it, it passes right through and is
excreted in the poo.

> Can someone clarify on the issue of bones in stool + diarrhea =
> salmonella?

It's more like kibble + raw food = digestive upset which does not
equal salmonella. Don't let your vet bully you into giving up raw.
Honestly the easiest way to transition a dog is to just go for it.
Mixing raw and cooked foods is easier for the human but much harder
on the dog. If you absolutely cannot go all in, I suggest you
separate the meals so one meal is completely raw followed by a meal
of doom nuggets. At least that way you won't end up with cannon butt.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Kathleen Hunter" dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com dmillho1
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
Raw food is digested > very quickly while cooked ki**le takes its
time. When both are fed > at the same time you can definitely expect
digestive uspet.
>
> > It's more like kibble + raw food = digestive upset which does not
> equal salmonella. Don't let your vet bully you into giving up raw.
> Honestly the easiest way to transition a dog is to just go for it.
> Mixing raw and cooked foods is easier for the human but much harder
> on the dog. If you absolutely cannot go all in, I suggest you
> separate the meals so one meal is completely raw followed by a meal
> of doom nuggets. At least that way you won't end up with cannon butt.
>
> Andrea
>

Thank you, Andrea. This is what I was thinking, but I like how you
have phrased it. I will show DH as well. :-)

Kathleen

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

"That dogs are not in the wild and would not be exposed to Salmonella in the wild, so it
had to be the chicken. bones in stool + diarrhea =salmonella?"

***I agree with Andrea...sounds like 'colgate palmolive' educated vet to me ;)***

"Raw food is digested very quickly while cooked ki**le takes its time. When both are fed
at the same time you can definitely expect digestive uspet."

***I've had different experiences with different dogs on this one. One dog recently had a
horrible reaction and was fine as soon as the kibble was ditched. Another didn't seem
discernably bothered by the mix. In any case commercial food is crap so I say dump it and
switch cold turkey. Never had a problem with that yet.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (11)
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1d. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

This is absolute *nonsense*! These vets should be ashamed of themselves for
making up stories to scare people. Salmonella is everywhere, regardless of
what is being fed. It is in the gut and stool of normal, healthy dogs (and
people). It is found in processed foods, treats, etc. It's
everywhere...has nothing to do with feeding a raw diet.

Your best solution would be to get rid of the kibble with it's long list of
inappropriate ingredients and just feed raw. Dogs are carnivores...they are
not designed to adequately digest carbohydrates.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kathleen Hunter" <dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com>

The stool was examined at the vet office. They called and told my DH
that there was bone in the stool and the presence of bone with
diarrhea could only be Salmonella. That dogs are not in the wild and
would not be exposed to Salmonella in the wild, so it had to be the
chicken.

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Blood in poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

blue eyed <eyed_blue@...> wrote:
>its when the blood appears as black, running throughout that you would
need to get to a vet, as this can signal internal bleeding, however
I've been lucky not to have experienced this.
*****
If you are a responsible raw feeder, it is not a matter of luck. It is
a matter of sensibility. There's no reason to expect your "luck" to
run out.

Black runny stools, for a sensibly raw fed dog, would more likely
indicate a meaty meal rich with blood. The similarity is blood; the
difference is whose blood.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
Posted by: "Greta Hill" GretaHill@aol.com sunstate23
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

This summer she started throwing up her food as soon as she finished
eating it >

I have a dog that would regurgitate her food right after eating. When I
had her tested, she was hypo-t. I sent my blood samples to Dr. Dodds,
the thyroid test the vets do is near useless. This was her only
symptom, otherwise she appears very healthy, lean, active, and a shiny
coat. I found this article that talks about regurgitation.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/vomiting.asp

My dog is now on thyroid meds, and regurgitates less often, but now she
can't tolerate beef unless it's ground. I can't figure it out, but it's
easy enough to feed her ground beef once in a while for variety.

Greta

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Throwing up black vomit
Posted by: "Jenn" jennswisher@gmail.com jennswisher
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

Hello,

Last night my hound threw up three times, and it was a black, sticky
material with a little grass and a few bone chunks.

About 9 hours earlier he ate a 1/2 chicken, the night prior he ate
canned mackerel, and two nights prior he had pork chops (no bone).
These are all things he eats regularly.

He is acting fine, so I am not sure if I should be worried about it
and take him to the vet or not. My other dog, who eats the same
meals as him is fine.

I am not sure if he has been having normal bowel movements or not,
since he usually goes when I am not around and I have two dogs.

A few weeks ago, he got into a bag of sweet-tarts and ate a bunch or
them with the plastic wrappers, and I never did see the plastic in
his poop.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

I can't feed my boys thawed ground food because they eat it super fast
and then vomit it back up a few minutes later for re-eating. Maybe
Katie's stomach isn't ready for the food to come as quickly as it did?
Is she eating the ground pork first, because if so you could try giving
her a neck or something to chew on before giving the ground stuff.
Hope that helps a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...>
wrote:

> Katie has been almost burping up often...about three time or
> so....I stopped the kidney after the first night. IT's not a lot,
> and she eats the puke right up...so she's not sick.

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> The ground pork might be really fatty and harder for her to digest.
> Does it smell ok or could it be "off?"

The pork doesn't smell at all.....I think I'll toss it anyhow....I only
paide $5 for it...I also threw out the kidney...tonight they're having
tripe....so that should help.....
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

Thanks Andrea.....she's never had a problem with ground before. I
usually give her ground chicken necks before to give her meds in...and
never a problem...it has to be the pork and or kidney....as she doesn't
puke up right away...it's always much later.
I'll stick to the ground necks and her rMB's for dinner.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Hugs
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

One of the exercises I did when I first started (because I'm a neurotic
nerd) involved the usda nutrient database

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
I typed in "raw chicken" and made a table of what nutrients were in 1
pound of each part of the chicken. Then I did the same with pork and
beef. Pound for pound liver is about the most nutrient dense item in
an animal. More importantly it has larger amounts of vitamins and such
that aren't found in abundance anywhere else in the animal. Try it,
it's fun.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Why is liver so important?

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))

"Why is liver so important?"

It's a natural source of vitamin A and D; and too much liver is not good
either because these are not water soluble vitamins and will build up in
their systems; unlike vitamin B & C, for example, which too much they will
just pee out.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

This is liver nutrient. (beef)

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c10tw.html

This is nutrient of chuck roast (beef)

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20xT.html

I think that organ is high in Vitamin A and other area's meat(muscle meat) is high in Vitamin B I think.

Each still has more different nutrient such asiron,zinc etc but big difference between muscle meat and organ I can find is Vitamin A not in muscle meat but in organ like liver.

other thing you can get A from is Cod liver oil (high in Vitamin A and D) or Vegetable (high in Vitamin A).

I am notsure about othersource of Vitamin A...

I thnk without organ in diet,dogs maybe get deficient amount of vitamin A,maybe.

Especially,we do not feed big amount of Vegitable or supplement of Cod liver oil.

Too much vitamin A is also bad;Vitamin A is not going to flash out in urine like in Vitamin B or C but stored in body and,if you feed too much of it,it gets overdose.

I have heard somewhere that bear liver (wild bear??) liver isquite high in Vitamin A and just one bite of liver cause overdose.

Feeding small amount of liver is not going to be overdose,and you can feed it daily.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

"I am not sure about genital area...anybody feed it to dogs?"

***Hi Maureen - can's imagine why not...my crew eats whole rabbit, with genitalia still
firmly attached and whole mice/rats/guinea pigs etc. If they'll eat them I wouldn't think Elk
'jewels' would be any problem.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

" I am not sure about genital area...anybody feed it to dogs?"

Yes, I feed lamb testicles, my dogs think that they are great.

Roxane

Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

Daddy, aka my husband, when he feeds fries to the dogs tells the girls "now,
this is what you do if a boy with these comes near you!" <grin> Raw feeding
humor at its finest :-)

On 10/26/07, chandler_baby <chandler_baby@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I feed lamb testicles, my dogs think that they are great.
>
> Roxane

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "marieandthefuzzybunch" marie@hotlinkhr.com marieandthefuzzybunch
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

Hi this is Marie with Oliver, Nadia and Patarusky. We finally switched
to raw when the pet food recalls scared me, although I had wondered a
lot before then. Oliver is 11 and Nadia and Pat are 2. They are all
doing well on raw, but Oliver is THE most enthusiastic eater, with nary
a problem. He acts like he has been waiting for this all of his life!

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

I have an 11 year old border mix that has been on raw for over a year
and he has never been healthier and happier. I would switch any dog you
can, even if it's old...
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:41 pm ((PDT))

I would say it is never too old to start a dog on raw.

When I switched my first dog to raw he was eight years old and had the
following illnesses:

Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD)
Epilepsy
Severe Allergies
Compromised Immune System

I started him on raw because he was dying and I thought raw was my last hope.

He lived to 13 years old. After his first raw meal he NEVER had a Gran Mal
seizure again. His IBD became much easier to control, and his allergies
almost all disappeared.

My first guy, Scamp, was not in great shape. The wonderful and
knowledgeable people on this list worked closely and tirelessly with me until we found
the right diet for Scamp.

After seeing what a prey model raw diet did for Scamp I will never again
ever feed a dog anything other than prey model raw!

Ann
Norman (19 months old) and Angel Scamp (5-93 to 5-06) (Both Portuguese Water
Dogs)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: Raw feeding a chiuauah... in Mexico.
Posted by: "tiffany fontenot" rydersilas@yahoo.com rydersilas
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

I dont' know if someone suggested this or not. I am living in India and really wanted to start my Boxer on RAW but was nervous about the meat as well. Someone said that if it is safe for me to eat then it should be ok. Also it was suggested to soak it in vinegar for a while then freeze it for a few days before feeding it. it seems to be working so far for me.
My boxer has been on raw for 2 months now and has had no problems at all, he loves it.
i'm still figuring all this out too, but so far so good.
tiffany

erikamdey <erikamdey@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am just learning, but it seems that this is true, a small dog gets
the same diet, just in smaller portions.
As far as portion size, they say starting off at 2% of body weight is
the amount that should be fed. So in your little guy's case here's how
I would calculate:
3lbs * 16 (to get amount in ounces) = 48
then multiply 48 by .02 to get 2% of that: .96
wow - so if this is right, your tiny tot should get just under an ounce
of food a day (1/16 of a lb!).
I would predict that a dog of that size would thrive best on smaller
softer bones considering even if his jaw muscles were really strong,
the bones would still need to be soft enough that they don't hurt the
tiny bones in his little jaw. But let me reiterate, I'm really new to
this stuff AND not an expert, just making assumptions really, but it's
nice to know that others are critiquing and can correct me if I'm wrong.
Hope you find good meat and cheers to you for thinking of your dog's
good health.

And for every one, what is the best kind of diet for a dog of this
size? Everything a normal dog gets but smaller? How much do I feed a
day?

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Messages in this topic (7)
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10. More reasons to go raw!
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

+++Mod note: don't forget to sign your emails ++++++++++++

I just read some very disturbing stuff about the cruelty animals go
thru in the name of research by well known pet food companies! Those
warm and fuzzy commercials are but a shameful cover for the cruelty
they inflict on our furry brethren!! If anyone needs yet another
reason (other than the health of your pet) to go raw - check this
out:

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/iams.htm
http://www.uncaged.co.uk/petfood.htm

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))

...because the dog is driving me nuts!!!
Since introducing venison she's not eating chicken hearts. I don't get
enough muscle meat, so she has to eat chicken heart or it's too much
bone (she already had hard light colored poop today, and that was
still with a little heart). She hates slimey glibbery stuff, and it
was always hard to get her to eat it. I hate it when she doesn't eat!!
I already poured some hot water over the hearts, and they're already
cut in small pieces, she still only ate half of them. Now she totally
gave up and went to sleep. Aaaargh!!!!
'kay, thanks for listening. I just needed to vent.
Why do we love dogs again?

Jennifer (not with Mandy today, because she's a real PITA today)

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell"
<jenniferhell@...> wrote:
>
> Since introducing venison she's not eating chicken hearts. I
> don't get enough muscle meat, so she has to eat chicken heart
> or it's too much bone (she already had hard light colored
> poop today, and that was still with a little heart).

Jennifer,
Don't sweat the small stuff. Don't worry about muscle meat and
bone. She is doing fine. Hard light colored stools are normal with
chicken. As long as it's not white and powdery, don't be
concerned. Every poop is not going to be perfect consistancy. Each
will be different.

It's just not important enough to get in a tizzy about. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Puppy with problem
Posted by: "afurzmom" havamomma@gmail.com afurzmom
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
I haven't been on this list for a while...which means raw feeding has
been going very well. I have three adult Havanese that are thriving on
raw.

Now I have a new puppy. She's 16 weeks old and I started her on raw at
8 weeks. She was doing great. Started on chicken, then added pork with
no problems.

This week we tried some beef and she got intense dire rear. I fasted
her over night, and things improved temporarily, but now she has it
again and she only had chicken last night.

It seems like anything I feed her brings on another round of liquid
stools. She's exhausted and so am I.

I recently lost my vet (he moved to a clinic 50 miles away), and I
hesitate to take her to a new vet because I KNOW they'll blame the raw
feeding. Please help!

She only weighs about 5 lbs. She can't go on like this for long. :o(
Michelle

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Puppy with problem
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

Try giving her some slippery elm bark to soothe her digestive tract. I
don't know how many meals you are feeding right now, but I would advise
adding one more feeding time so she is eating lots of tiny meals every
day. Also, this might be a good time to feed slightly bonier stuff
until things firm up a bit (leg and thigh as opposed to bone in breast).

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "afurzmom" <havamomma@...> wrote:

> It seems like anything I feed her brings on another round of liquid
> stools. She's exhausted and so am I.

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12207

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
From: Andrea

2.1. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
From: Melissa

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:47 am ((PDT))

One of my dogs does this if he eats something too quickly or hasn't
quite chewed enough. Perhaps giving a whole chicken would help slow
her down and make her chew her food. Just take the food away when she
has eaten half of the chicken. It sounds like she is bringing the food
up to have a second go at it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lesli_forrester"
<lesli_forrester@...> wrote:

> This summer she started throwing up her food as soon as she
> finished eating it. Ex. I give her small half chicken which she
> chomps up in about 5 minutes and then regurgitates it back up about
> a minute or two later.

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

I agree with Ginny. I think you need to contact a classical
homeopath. This list
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ClassicalHomeopathyPets/ should
help you.

My dog has a chronic vomiting problem ("IBD" or whatever). Switching
to a raw diet helped him immensely, but problems were still cropping
up occasionally. He hasn't been treated for very long, but I've seen
very positive results already. I definitely recommend trying that route.

I'm sorry that your dog is suffering. I know how hard that is. I
hope you're able to find the answers you need.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:

> The way resolve his issues lies in classical homeopathy, in the hands
> of an excellent practitioner. His whole governing life force needs
> some help to improve his function.

> ginny and Tomo

Messages in this topic (30)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12206

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Katie's puking up
From: Susanne MacLeod
1b. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Laurie Swanson

2. Hamburger/and other ground meats/puppy
From: beaulah_2001us

3a. Re: Constant diarrhoea
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: swallows whole
From: Mary Tinder
4b. Re: swallows whole
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: swallows whole
From: Giselle

5a. Throws up food within seconds of eating
From: lesli_forrester
5b. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
From: carolejc2007

6a. Re: Chicken Sale
From: Maggie Smith

7a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
7b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: Daisy Foxworth

8a. Re: Smelts
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8b. Re: Smelts
From: doreenchui
8c. Re: Smelts
From: Morledzep@aol.com

9.1. question
From: beaulah_2001us

10a. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
From: anntiga
10b. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
From: T Smith

11. Why is Liver so important?
From: T Smith

12a. Re: New with Questions
From: lolathomson
12b. Re: New with Questions
From: D. Rajska
12c. Re: New with Questions
From: D. Rajska

13. Good Chicken price in MA
From: Margo Farnsworth

14a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Kathleen Hunter

15a. Blood in poo
From: blue eyed

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))

Evening all....I have 2 frenchies that are raw fed and things have been
awesome. I have an immune compromised girl, who I have been really
trying hard to help through homeopathy. Anyhow, I try to follow a prey
diet as best as I can. I sometimes feed ground as I have to give her
meds (thyroids). Anyhow, last week I bought some ground pork and some
pork kidney at this asian market. Also got great goat shoulder AND
oxtail - real cheap. ANyhow, since trying the pork and pork kidney my
Katie has been almost burping up often...about three time or so....I
stopped the kidney after the first night. IT's not a lot, and she eats
the puke right up...so she's not sick. Any thoughts, have any of you
ever experienced this - her temp is fine...do you think it's
this "batch" of pork...she eats necks, and shoulder just fine. Could
it be where I got it?
Thanks ahead for the replies.
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

The ground pork might be really fatty and harder for her to digest.
Does it smell ok or could it be "off?"

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...>
wrote:
>Anyhow, last week I bought some ground pork and some
> pork kidney at this asian market.

ANyhow, since trying the pork and pork kidney my
> Katie has been almost burping up often...about three time or so....I
> stopped the kidney after the first night. IT's not a lot, and she
eats
> the puke right up...so she's not sick.

Messages in this topic (2)
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2. Hamburger/and other ground meats/puppy
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi all.

I have given our dogs raw ground meats in the past but only as adult
dogs and who were not on total raw diet. Mocha did get lucky and with
rooms like this one I got her to a total raw diet although that was too
late. She taught me much in many ways about what she needed and as I
learned I changed her diet.

I would have no qualms feeding my dog or dogs ground meat. I just would
not make a large staple of it unless it has at least bone crunched up
in it. And it does work in a pinch. I can get ground organ meats,
ground necks with bone in or just ground meat. I do spoil my any baby I
have with ground buffalo though when I can get some at a good price.
But they have to share with the two leggeds in the house too! Even on
specail it is pricey.

I get raw chicken and turkey necks that are ground up bone and all.
Sophie our new baby is 10 weeks old and I need to learn how to feed her
raw bones and all. I am really kind of intimidated all over again. When
I go to town tomorrow I plan on getting some fowl necks that are whole
and see how she does on those. She has been eating both turkey and
chicken and I gave her some lamb organ meat today for a small feeding
and doing ground chicken for the rest.

I guess I should introduce our puppy and give some a history of our
last dogs.

We had two dogs gracie who passed last Ocotber and Mocha who passed
this last August due to insulinoma cancer. I am a firm believer that
her cancer in large was due to the kibble foods and the high carbs that
they put in there. Mochas passing was particularly hard because she had
wave after wave of grand maul seizures.

We finally decided we were ready for another baby. We got a gorgious
pure bred boxer with a bit of an over bite. Not very noticable but
there. She is very sweet and I think Sophie in German means sweet.
Found that online but still I am not totally positive since it came
from on line. She didnt like kibble from the get go and didnt eat much
of what the lady sent home with us. We got a better kibble from
specialty store that also houses two holistic vets. Well as soon as I
could get to the store that I had been buying the ground meat with bone
in it I started switching her over to raw. Well she will leave the
kibble behind and eat only the raw! So I dont think I will have to
fight tooth and toe nail to get her to eat well.

It is soooooo good to have a furbaby back in the house again! I will
see if we have pics of her posted here. If not I will get some posted
tonight.

Sandy

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: Constant diarrhoea
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:
>
> Hello sorry if I spelt it wrong - my five year old lab has constant
> liquid diarrhoea for three days now and she empties her
> bowels during
> the night always in the same place, fortunately on tiled flooring.

Ursla,
Don't panic. If she has been ok until 3 days ago, I don't think
this is caused by the poison she had last spring. I suggest going
back to the basics. Fast for a day and then start on chicken for a
couple of weeks. Remove the skin and extra fat. Feed small meals.
Make sure she is hydrated. Her stools should firm up in a few
days. Gradually add back other protein sources just like a newly
switched dog.

IF you have to take her back to the vet, remember HE can't put her
on anything you don't want to feed her. He can suggest but he can't
force it.

If she has had other liver problems since the spring, disregard this
post.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: swallows whole
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:52 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Giselle and Chris O!
I was not thinking about Big Feed. I've only been raw feeding for
about two weeks and it is taking a considerable reprogramming to change
the habits after 40 years of prepared food feeding. It never occurred
to me that he was acting like a starving fool!

I'd LOVE to see this dog satiated, relaxed and full! I'm almost
embarassed to say that I don't think he's EVER been there!

Turkey Tomorrow. A BIG one! Enough for leftovers!

Mary T

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: swallows whole
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> OK, my Dane, who was initially dubious about the raw diet is now
> swallowing whole chicken halves, most often without more than one or
> two initial crunches.

Cool. Don't expect dogs to chew like humans. Their digestive system
is different. Their teeth are different. We chew food into a mush
before we swallow it. Dogs don't. They just crunch it into small
enough pieces to fit down their throat. Sounds like this is what your
dog is doing. They can swallow some amazingly large pieces.

> He seemes to digest it ok!

Shows he is chewing well enough.

> Worst problem is that it makes it not very satisfactory for
> "mother" as dinner time is rather short. He acts insatiable!

Well, thats a Mama thing. I ate too fast and didn't chew well enough
to suit my Mama either. :) :) :)

> Bigger pieces?

You can if you wish.

> Give him the whole chicken?

If you wish.

> Freeze b4 hand?

I don't like that idea

> Should I worry?

He seems to be havning no digestive problems. I wouldn't worry.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: swallows whole
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Mary!
Great minds think alike. ; )

Just remember to take it slow - baby steps.

He just might have cannon butt if he eats to repletion. Too much food, or
too much food at one time, or too much new food can cause digestive upset.

It may not bother him, but you may not be thrilled with the result if you
short circuit the process to feeding Big Food!

TC
Giselle

On 10/25/07, Mary Tinder <mtinder@tinderco.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Giselle and Chris O!
> I was not thinking about Big Feed. I've only been raw feeding for
> about two weeks and it is taking a considerable reprogramming to change
> the habits after 40 years of prepared food feeding. It never occurred
> to me that he was acting like a starving fool!
>
> I'd LOVE to see this dog satiated, relaxed and full! I'm almost
> embarrassed to say that I don't think he's EVER been there!
>
> Turkey Tomorrow. A BIG one! Enough for leftovers!
>
> Mary T
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Throws up food within seconds of eating
Posted by: "lesli_forrester" lesli_forrester@yahoo.ca lesli_forrester
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:53 pm ((PDT))

My Bernese Mountain Dog has been on raw for 1 year now limited to
chicken, beef, turkey, egg, and any organs as long as they are
partially browned on the outside.

This summer she started throwing up her food as soon as she finished
eating it. Ex. I give her small half chicken which she chomps up in
about 5 minutes and then regurgitates it back up about a minute or
two later. She does not have an upset stomach since she turns around
and eats it again right away (I know, sounds gross but it looks just
like it did the first time going down, just chomped up). She keeps
it down the second time and she seems none the worse for wear. She
is not losing weight, good poops, clean bill of health, etc.

I thought initially this was due to the summer heat, and it's not
everyday but it's regular (3 times/week?) and now that we have cooler
days I am not sure why she still does this. I don't think it has
anything to do with her not chewing up her food enough the first time
since she does the same thing with a dinner of just ground beef.
Can't get much more ground up than that.

Can anyone explain why she is doing this, is this normal, am I doing
something wrong?
Thanks,
Lesli

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:04 am ((PDT))

Lesli

One of my Greyhounds does this also. I have no answer for you but
the only thing I can think of is that maybe it was too cold for her
tummy the first time down and/or she ate it too fast. I really am
not that concerned about it though because, like you said, it gets
eaten the second time around and stays down. ;-)

Carole

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lesli_forrester"
<lesli_forrester@...> wrote:
>
> My Bernese Mountain Dog has been on raw for 1 year now limited to
> chicken, beef, turkey, egg, and any organs as long as they are
> partially browned on the outside.
>
> This summer she started throwing up her food as soon as she
finished
> eating it. Ex. I give her small half chicken which she chomps up
in
> about 5 minutes and then regurgitates it back up about a minute or
> two later. She does not have an upset stomach since she turns
around
> and eats it again right away (I know, sounds gross but it looks
just
> like it did the first time going down, just chomped up). She
keeps
> it down the second time and she seems none the worse for wear.
She
> is not losing weight, good poops, clean bill of health, etc.
>
> I thought initially this was due to the summer heat, and it's not
> everyday but it's regular (3 times/week?) and now that we have
cooler
> days I am not sure why she still does this. I don't think it has
> anything to do with her not chewing up her food enough the first
time
> since she does the same thing with a dinner of just ground beef.
> Can't get much more ground up than that.
>
> Can anyone explain why she is doing this, is this normal, am I
doing
> something wrong?
> Thanks,
> Lesli
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Chicken Sale
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:43 pm ((PDT))

Regarding Seattle area - this is a 3 day only sale - get rainchecks!!

Maggie, Rufus, Oliver and Mickey
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/25/2007 4:38:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> redkeds@... writes:
>
> BTW - this is for the greater Seattle area stores.
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:25:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,"kaebruney"
writes:

My mother is the owner of two cats one 9 another 6, and I was
wondering if it is possible to switch over an older feline to raw as well?

****
Hi, Kae

I switched my 3 in March--one 9, one 7, and one 3. The 9-year-old is my best
bone-eater. :) But be careful and patient about it because cats are at risk
of a possibly fatal liver disease if they go sometimes even 24 hr. without
eating sufficient food--so no, you can't just starve a cat into eating what you
give him. Sometimes a cat is a happy switcher (all 3 of mine were completely
transitioned and starting to eat bones within 3 weeks), sometimes it takes
lots and lots of patience and putting a bit of raw out with the usual food,
having it rejected. A lot of times, if a cat is a kibble addict, you have to get
him switched to canned and THEN to raw. (But hey, the canned is still better
for him than the kibble!)

When I was deciding to switch, at the time of the pet food recalls, I was
concerned about the oldest cat's health, as he was losing weight and hair and in
general not thriving. He showed the most marked and immediate improvement,
in coat and weight. I started with chicken (influenced by this list, probably
didn't offer anything but different parts of chicken for over a week,
although I've read that cats should be given variety immediately), then turkey,
fish, then beef, pork, rabbit, lamb, frog legs, eggs... .whatever swims by you.
:) Also, against all "right" ways, my cats' introduction to raw meat was a
considerable amount of chopped up chicken liver mixed with their canned food and
some veggies...and they LOVED it, with no ill effects.

Getting your mom's overweight guy off kibble could save his life. Here's a
link to a vet whose specialty is cats with diabetes, she blames carbs and feeds
raw herself-- and I believe that what she says is true of all cats.

_http://yourdiabeticcat.com/_ (http://yourdiabeticcat.com/)

Hope this helps.

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:38 am ((PDT))

I switched my cat a year ago, at 16 years old. She won't touch bone,
so she doesn't get the dental benefits (which is the main reason I
changed her diet, LOL), but she is clearly better in other ways. I
add finely ground egg shell to make up for the lost bone. My vet
thinks she looks great!

Daisy

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:36 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/25/2007 5:24:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gwilken@alamedanet.net writes:

and my fish are not that big - but heck, I could try it.

lol Ginny,

we're raising south american cichlids and catfish.. when the fish are young
we cut the fish up into bite sized pieces.. when they are big enough they eat
them whole.

And smelts is just one of the types of fish they eat.. they are also big fans
of catfish nuggets and raw shrimp.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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8b. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

Shrimp?
Doreen

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/25/2007 5:24:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> gwilken@... writes:
>
> and my fish are not that big - but heck, I could try it.
>
>
>
> lol Ginny,
>
> we're raising south american cichlids and catfish.. when the fish
are young
> we cut the fish up into bite sized pieces.. when they are big
enough they eat
> them whole.
>
> And smelts is just one of the types of fish they eat.. they are
also big fans
> of catfish nuggets and raw shrimp.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at

http://www.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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8c. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:14 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/26/2007 1:08:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
doreenchui@yeos.com writes:

Shrimp?

Doreen,

yes.. for the fish. the 61-70 shell on raw shrimp is about $3 - 4 lb
depending on the store. i snip the tails off and feed them to my fish. i have
peacock bass(3 different varieties), redtailed catfish, tigershovelnose catfish,
angelfish, red bay snooks, oscars, true green terrors, a silver arowana and
various tank janitors (plecos, crayfish, snails and clams).

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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9.1. question
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

How do i post pictures?

Sandy

Messages in this topic (126)
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10a. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
Posted by: "anntiga" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

HI!

Norman is great, thank you! I have been busy but hope I can start
getting involved again.

Ann and Norman (Portugese Water Dog, 19 months old, rawfed prey model
style since 12 weeks old and thriving)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Anntiga@ wrote:
> >
> > This is a great site that has a list with links to several articles
> about
> > how awful pet food is.
> *****
> Ann!
> You're back!
> Where ya bin?
> Good to see ya.
>
> Everything okay? How is Master Norman?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

How can I get this in a different format other than pdf?
Trina

On 10/25/07, Anntiga@aol.com <Anntiga@aol.com> wrote:
>
> This is a great site that has a list with links to several articles
> about
> how awful pet food is.
>
> _
> http://www.canineadvantage.com/Rendering%20Plant%20Article%20Websites.pdf_
> (http://www.canineadvantage.com/Rendering%20Plant%20Article%20Websites.pdf)
>
>
>
> Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
> San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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11. Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

Why is liver so important?
Trina
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: New with Questions
Posted by: "lolathomson" lolathomson@gmail.com lolathomson
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

> I don't excercise the way cave people did when they had to hike the
woods to
> pick their berries and wild vegetables and chase their prey whilst
wielding
> a big stick... That doesn't mean that chocolate is a more ideal diet
for me
> than fruit, whole grains and lean meat was for a cave person... Just
means
> my intake should be commensurate with my activity level...?

Exactly the point that I was making.

> Again... to me that's like saying, gee, I'd love to eat a salad, but I'm
> afraid there's so much pesticide in vegetables I'll just be better off
> eating a Twinkie... I'm new here, all I do is ask a lot of
questions, but
> that argument just makes no sense. I wish it did - I'm visiting a friend
> right now and it would be great if I could justify the dessert I just
> inhaled.... ;)

My point was by no means to say that because all our natural food may
be contaminated that we should eat processed food!! Rather that
substituting appropriate contaminated food for inappropriate
contaminated food was not a good solution to the problem of meat and
bones being contaminated...

I think we're agreeing but just wanted to clarify!

Ali

Messages in this topic (15)
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12b. Re: New with Questions
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 am ((PDT))

On 10/26/07, lolathomson <lolathomson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think we're agreeing but just wanted to clarify!
>
> .
> _,_._,___
>

HI,

Oh, I completely agree with you -m just micking the original text - you're
totally right, the book makes no sense on those two points and I just wanted
to illustrate how ridiculous they were by putting them in human terms. We're
good :)

Dee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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12c. Re: New with Questions
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 am ((PDT))

On 10/26/07, D. Rajska <d.rajska@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> -m just micking the original text -
>

Gee, maybe in the future I should try waking up before I try typing.....
Lemme try again here.... ***I'm just mocking the original text****

Dee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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13. Good Chicken price in MA
Posted by: "Margo Farnsworth" mfarnsworth@mfgraffix.com mfarnsworth06759
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:27 am ((PDT))

I found All Natural whole chickens at Wal-Mart in Leicester for $.93/lb
(frozen). They have the little organ meat packet inside, too (I'm finding
some chickens I buy do not have that anymore). I thought that was a good
price for all-natural chicken. When I took them out of the package they did
not have a greasy or slimy feel to them, the skin was drier to the touch.
Dogs are happy with them! They don't cook up as well as human food, it came
out a bit rubbery.

Margo

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Kathleen Hunter" dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com dmillho1
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:38 am ((PDT))

I apologize for the length, but want to give all the information

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
>If one or both of your
> dogs is having digestive problems(diarrhea/excessively soft stools)
> at this point, it's time to back up and begin again from the
> beginning.
>>
> The things that can cause digestive upset:
> 1. Adding new protein sources too quickly to newly switched dogs.
> 2. Feeding to little bone to newly switched dogs.
> 3. Adding organ meat too early to newly switched dogs.
> 4. Feeding too much volume
> 5. Feeding too much fat. (remove the skin and extra fat if your
> dog is having digestive problems. If he isn't, don't worry about it.
>
>
After gentle persuasion over several months, I finally got my DH to
agree with giving our 2 Corgis raw meat. He agreed to let them have
one piece of raw chicken every other day, with their regular dry food.
)We feed them Timberwolf Organics dry food, a Florida-based product.)

All has gone well - (1 or 2 months) until this Wednesday just past.
The dogs went to the groomer and one of the boys had diarrhea there.
After 3 loose stools, he was given something to stop the diarrhea. It
did not work completely as he had more loose stools that evening and
during the night into Thursday.

Now, my DH is upset. The vet people want to talk to me - but, I told
DH that talking to the vet would not change my thinking. I can see
fromHe, however, is still upset, so I expect that we will stop the wee
bit of raw food we've been giving. I can see from what "carnesbill"
wrote about digestive problems, that our strategy may be at fault.

Can someone clarify on the issue of bones in stool + diarrhea =
salmonella?

Thanks.

Kathleen

Messages in this topic (7)
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15a. Blood in poo
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:04 am ((PDT))

There are a couple of reasons this may happen, however it dosnt tend to be a problem (I've been told this by vets too) Just feed something a bit gentler on the tummy for a day or two, its when the blood appears as black, running throughout that you would need to get to a vet, as this can signal internal bleeding, however I've been lucky not to have experienced this.

Natalie

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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