[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12208

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Kathleen Hunter
1c. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: marclre
1d. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Blood in poo
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
From: Greta Hill

4. Throwing up black vomit
From: Jenn

5a. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Susanne MacLeod
5c. Re: Katie's puking up
From: Susanne MacLeod

6a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Tina Berry
6c. Re: Why is Liver so important?
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: Elk organs
From: marclre
7b. Re: Elk organs
From: chandler_baby
7c. Re: Elk organs
From: Laura Atkinson

8a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: marieandthefuzzybunch
8b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
From: rosey031801
8c. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
From: Anntiga@aol.com

9a. Re: Raw feeding a chiuauah... in Mexico.
From: tiffany fontenot

10. More reasons to go raw!
From: marlena_adema

11a. Somebody kill me NOW
From: jennifer_hell
11b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
From: carnesbill

12a. Puppy with problem
From: afurzmom
12b. Re: Puppy with problem
From: Andrea

Messages
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1a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:56 am ((PDT))

The problem isn't salmonella, it is the fact that you are feeding two
kinds of food that digest at different rates. Raw food is digested
very quickly while cooked ki**le takes its time. When both are fed
at the same time you can definitely expect digestive uspet.

> They called and told my DH that there was bone in the stool and the
> presence of bone with diarrhea could only be Salmonella.

That's a load of hooey. Did they actually test the stool for
salmonella or did they just assume that is the only reason?

> That dogs are not in the wild and would not be exposed to
> Salmonella in the wild, so it had to be the chicken.

Exposed or not, a dog has very strong stomach acid and a short
digestive tract, both of which make it very difficult for salmonella
to start a colony even if it is introduced into the body. If a dog
eats food that has salmonella in it, it passes right through and is
excreted in the poo.

> Can someone clarify on the issue of bones in stool + diarrhea =
> salmonella?

It's more like kibble + raw food = digestive upset which does not
equal salmonella. Don't let your vet bully you into giving up raw.
Honestly the easiest way to transition a dog is to just go for it.
Mixing raw and cooked foods is easier for the human but much harder
on the dog. If you absolutely cannot go all in, I suggest you
separate the meals so one meal is completely raw followed by a meal
of doom nuggets. At least that way you won't end up with cannon butt.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Kathleen Hunter" dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com dmillho1
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
Raw food is digested > very quickly while cooked ki**le takes its
time. When both are fed > at the same time you can definitely expect
digestive uspet.
>
> > It's more like kibble + raw food = digestive upset which does not
> equal salmonella. Don't let your vet bully you into giving up raw.
> Honestly the easiest way to transition a dog is to just go for it.
> Mixing raw and cooked foods is easier for the human but much harder
> on the dog. If you absolutely cannot go all in, I suggest you
> separate the meals so one meal is completely raw followed by a meal
> of doom nuggets. At least that way you won't end up with cannon butt.
>
> Andrea
>

Thank you, Andrea. This is what I was thinking, but I like how you
have phrased it. I will show DH as well. :-)

Kathleen

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

"That dogs are not in the wild and would not be exposed to Salmonella in the wild, so it
had to be the chicken. bones in stool + diarrhea =salmonella?"

***I agree with Andrea...sounds like 'colgate palmolive' educated vet to me ;)***

"Raw food is digested very quickly while cooked ki**le takes its time. When both are fed
at the same time you can definitely expect digestive uspet."

***I've had different experiences with different dogs on this one. One dog recently had a
horrible reaction and was fine as soon as the kibble was ditched. Another didn't seem
discernably bothered by the mix. In any case commercial food is crap so I say dump it and
switch cold turkey. Never had a problem with that yet.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (11)
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1d. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

This is absolute *nonsense*! These vets should be ashamed of themselves for
making up stories to scare people. Salmonella is everywhere, regardless of
what is being fed. It is in the gut and stool of normal, healthy dogs (and
people). It is found in processed foods, treats, etc. It's
everywhere...has nothing to do with feeding a raw diet.

Your best solution would be to get rid of the kibble with it's long list of
inappropriate ingredients and just feed raw. Dogs are carnivores...they are
not designed to adequately digest carbohydrates.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kathleen Hunter" <dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com>

The stool was examined at the vet office. They called and told my DH
that there was bone in the stool and the presence of bone with
diarrhea could only be Salmonella. That dogs are not in the wild and
would not be exposed to Salmonella in the wild, so it had to be the
chicken.

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Blood in poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

blue eyed <eyed_blue@...> wrote:
>its when the blood appears as black, running throughout that you would
need to get to a vet, as this can signal internal bleeding, however
I've been lucky not to have experienced this.
*****
If you are a responsible raw feeder, it is not a matter of luck. It is
a matter of sensibility. There's no reason to expect your "luck" to
run out.

Black runny stools, for a sensibly raw fed dog, would more likely
indicate a meaty meal rich with blood. The similarity is blood; the
difference is whose blood.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Throws up food within seconds of eating
Posted by: "Greta Hill" GretaHill@aol.com sunstate23
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

This summer she started throwing up her food as soon as she finished
eating it >

I have a dog that would regurgitate her food right after eating. When I
had her tested, she was hypo-t. I sent my blood samples to Dr. Dodds,
the thyroid test the vets do is near useless. This was her only
symptom, otherwise she appears very healthy, lean, active, and a shiny
coat. I found this article that talks about regurgitation.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/vomiting.asp

My dog is now on thyroid meds, and regurgitates less often, but now she
can't tolerate beef unless it's ground. I can't figure it out, but it's
easy enough to feed her ground beef once in a while for variety.

Greta

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Throwing up black vomit
Posted by: "Jenn" jennswisher@gmail.com jennswisher
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

Hello,

Last night my hound threw up three times, and it was a black, sticky
material with a little grass and a few bone chunks.

About 9 hours earlier he ate a 1/2 chicken, the night prior he ate
canned mackerel, and two nights prior he had pork chops (no bone).
These are all things he eats regularly.

He is acting fine, so I am not sure if I should be worried about it
and take him to the vet or not. My other dog, who eats the same
meals as him is fine.

I am not sure if he has been having normal bowel movements or not,
since he usually goes when I am not around and I have two dogs.

A few weeks ago, he got into a bag of sweet-tarts and ate a bunch or
them with the plastic wrappers, and I never did see the plastic in
his poop.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

I can't feed my boys thawed ground food because they eat it super fast
and then vomit it back up a few minutes later for re-eating. Maybe
Katie's stomach isn't ready for the food to come as quickly as it did?
Is she eating the ground pork first, because if so you could try giving
her a neck or something to chew on before giving the ground stuff.
Hope that helps a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...>
wrote:

> Katie has been almost burping up often...about three time or
> so....I stopped the kidney after the first night. IT's not a lot,
> and she eats the puke right up...so she's not sick.

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> The ground pork might be really fatty and harder for her to digest.
> Does it smell ok or could it be "off?"

The pork doesn't smell at all.....I think I'll toss it anyhow....I only
paide $5 for it...I also threw out the kidney...tonight they're having
tripe....so that should help.....
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Katie's puking up
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

Thanks Andrea.....she's never had a problem with ground before. I
usually give her ground chicken necks before to give her meds in...and
never a problem...it has to be the pork and or kidney....as she doesn't
puke up right away...it's always much later.
I'll stick to the ground necks and her rMB's for dinner.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Hugs
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

One of the exercises I did when I first started (because I'm a neurotic
nerd) involved the usda nutrient database

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
I typed in "raw chicken" and made a table of what nutrients were in 1
pound of each part of the chicken. Then I did the same with pork and
beef. Pound for pound liver is about the most nutrient dense item in
an animal. More importantly it has larger amounts of vitamins and such
that aren't found in abundance anywhere else in the animal. Try it,
it's fun.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Why is liver so important?

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))

"Why is liver so important?"

It's a natural source of vitamin A and D; and too much liver is not good
either because these are not water soluble vitamins and will build up in
their systems; unlike vitamin B & C, for example, which too much they will
just pee out.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Why is Liver so important?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

This is liver nutrient. (beef)

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c10tw.html

This is nutrient of chuck roast (beef)

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20xT.html

I think that organ is high in Vitamin A and other area's meat(muscle meat) is high in Vitamin B I think.

Each still has more different nutrient such asiron,zinc etc but big difference between muscle meat and organ I can find is Vitamin A not in muscle meat but in organ like liver.

other thing you can get A from is Cod liver oil (high in Vitamin A and D) or Vegetable (high in Vitamin A).

I am notsure about othersource of Vitamin A...

I thnk without organ in diet,dogs maybe get deficient amount of vitamin A,maybe.

Especially,we do not feed big amount of Vegitable or supplement of Cod liver oil.

Too much vitamin A is also bad;Vitamin A is not going to flash out in urine like in Vitamin B or C but stored in body and,if you feed too much of it,it gets overdose.

I have heard somewhere that bear liver (wild bear??) liver isquite high in Vitamin A and just one bite of liver cause overdose.

Feeding small amount of liver is not going to be overdose,and you can feed it daily.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

"I am not sure about genital area...anybody feed it to dogs?"

***Hi Maureen - can's imagine why not...my crew eats whole rabbit, with genitalia still
firmly attached and whole mice/rats/guinea pigs etc. If they'll eat them I wouldn't think Elk
'jewels' would be any problem.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

" I am not sure about genital area...anybody feed it to dogs?"

Yes, I feed lamb testicles, my dogs think that they are great.

Roxane

Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

Daddy, aka my husband, when he feeds fries to the dogs tells the girls "now,
this is what you do if a boy with these comes near you!" <grin> Raw feeding
humor at its finest :-)

On 10/26/07, chandler_baby <chandler_baby@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I feed lamb testicles, my dogs think that they are great.
>
> Roxane

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "marieandthefuzzybunch" marie@hotlinkhr.com marieandthefuzzybunch
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

Hi this is Marie with Oliver, Nadia and Patarusky. We finally switched
to raw when the pet food recalls scared me, although I had wondered a
lot before then. Oliver is 11 and Nadia and Pat are 2. They are all
doing well on raw, but Oliver is THE most enthusiastic eater, with nary
a problem. He acts like he has been waiting for this all of his life!

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

I have an 11 year old border mix that has been on raw for over a year
and he has never been healthier and happier. I would switch any dog you
can, even if it's old...
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw? NO
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:41 pm ((PDT))

I would say it is never too old to start a dog on raw.

When I switched my first dog to raw he was eight years old and had the
following illnesses:

Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD)
Epilepsy
Severe Allergies
Compromised Immune System

I started him on raw because he was dying and I thought raw was my last hope.

He lived to 13 years old. After his first raw meal he NEVER had a Gran Mal
seizure again. His IBD became much easier to control, and his allergies
almost all disappeared.

My first guy, Scamp, was not in great shape. The wonderful and
knowledgeable people on this list worked closely and tirelessly with me until we found
the right diet for Scamp.

After seeing what a prey model raw diet did for Scamp I will never again
ever feed a dog anything other than prey model raw!

Ann
Norman (19 months old) and Angel Scamp (5-93 to 5-06) (Both Portuguese Water
Dogs)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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9a. Re: Raw feeding a chiuauah... in Mexico.
Posted by: "tiffany fontenot" rydersilas@yahoo.com rydersilas
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

I dont' know if someone suggested this or not. I am living in India and really wanted to start my Boxer on RAW but was nervous about the meat as well. Someone said that if it is safe for me to eat then it should be ok. Also it was suggested to soak it in vinegar for a while then freeze it for a few days before feeding it. it seems to be working so far for me.
My boxer has been on raw for 2 months now and has had no problems at all, he loves it.
i'm still figuring all this out too, but so far so good.
tiffany

erikamdey <erikamdey@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am just learning, but it seems that this is true, a small dog gets
the same diet, just in smaller portions.
As far as portion size, they say starting off at 2% of body weight is
the amount that should be fed. So in your little guy's case here's how
I would calculate:
3lbs * 16 (to get amount in ounces) = 48
then multiply 48 by .02 to get 2% of that: .96
wow - so if this is right, your tiny tot should get just under an ounce
of food a day (1/16 of a lb!).
I would predict that a dog of that size would thrive best on smaller
softer bones considering even if his jaw muscles were really strong,
the bones would still need to be soft enough that they don't hurt the
tiny bones in his little jaw. But let me reiterate, I'm really new to
this stuff AND not an expert, just making assumptions really, but it's
nice to know that others are critiquing and can correct me if I'm wrong.
Hope you find good meat and cheers to you for thinking of your dog's
good health.

And for every one, what is the best kind of diet for a dog of this
size? Everything a normal dog gets but smaller? How much do I feed a
day?

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10. More reasons to go raw!
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

+++Mod note: don't forget to sign your emails ++++++++++++

I just read some very disturbing stuff about the cruelty animals go
thru in the name of research by well known pet food companies! Those
warm and fuzzy commercials are but a shameful cover for the cruelty
they inflict on our furry brethren!! If anyone needs yet another
reason (other than the health of your pet) to go raw - check this
out:

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/iams.htm
http://www.uncaged.co.uk/petfood.htm

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11a. Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))

...because the dog is driving me nuts!!!
Since introducing venison she's not eating chicken hearts. I don't get
enough muscle meat, so she has to eat chicken heart or it's too much
bone (she already had hard light colored poop today, and that was
still with a little heart). She hates slimey glibbery stuff, and it
was always hard to get her to eat it. I hate it when she doesn't eat!!
I already poured some hot water over the hearts, and they're already
cut in small pieces, she still only ate half of them. Now she totally
gave up and went to sleep. Aaaargh!!!!
'kay, thanks for listening. I just needed to vent.
Why do we love dogs again?

Jennifer (not with Mandy today, because she's a real PITA today)

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11b. Re: Somebody kill me NOW
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell"
<jenniferhell@...> wrote:
>
> Since introducing venison she's not eating chicken hearts. I
> don't get enough muscle meat, so she has to eat chicken heart
> or it's too much bone (she already had hard light colored
> poop today, and that was still with a little heart).

Jennifer,
Don't sweat the small stuff. Don't worry about muscle meat and
bone. She is doing fine. Hard light colored stools are normal with
chicken. As long as it's not white and powdery, don't be
concerned. Every poop is not going to be perfect consistancy. Each
will be different.

It's just not important enough to get in a tizzy about. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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12a. Puppy with problem
Posted by: "afurzmom" havamomma@gmail.com afurzmom
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
I haven't been on this list for a while...which means raw feeding has
been going very well. I have three adult Havanese that are thriving on
raw.

Now I have a new puppy. She's 16 weeks old and I started her on raw at
8 weeks. She was doing great. Started on chicken, then added pork with
no problems.

This week we tried some beef and she got intense dire rear. I fasted
her over night, and things improved temporarily, but now she has it
again and she only had chicken last night.

It seems like anything I feed her brings on another round of liquid
stools. She's exhausted and so am I.

I recently lost my vet (he moved to a clinic 50 miles away), and I
hesitate to take her to a new vet because I KNOW they'll blame the raw
feeding. Please help!

She only weighs about 5 lbs. She can't go on like this for long. :o(
Michelle

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12b. Re: Puppy with problem
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

Try giving her some slippery elm bark to soothe her digestive tract. I
don't know how many meals you are feeding right now, but I would advise
adding one more feeding time so she is eating lots of tiny meals every
day. Also, this might be a good time to feed slightly bonier stuff
until things firm up a bit (leg and thigh as opposed to bone in breast).

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "afurzmom" <havamomma@...> wrote:

> It seems like anything I feed her brings on another round of liquid
> stools. She's exhausted and so am I.

Messages in this topic (2)
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