[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12199

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: liebo1134
1b. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: chandler_baby
2b. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: Shannon Reed
2c. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

3.1. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3.2. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: (unknown)
From: Casey Post

6a. Another Organ Meat Question
From: nkayl
6b. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: Laura Atkinson
6c. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: katkellm
6d. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: moemahood@aol.com
7b. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Pup with worms
From: Annaliisa Readman
8b. Re: Pup with worms
From: brutus_buckley
8c. Re: Pup with worms
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Blood in poo
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: A Meat Question
From: costrowski75

13. intro from nj
From: Maryellen

Messages
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1a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "liebo1134" liebo1134@yahoo.com liebo1134
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Hey Sandy,

Thanks for the response . . . a) where do i go about buying these whole chickens and b) what
does quarters exactly mean? Just cut them into 4 parts??? I'm kind of new to this and its
really scary . . .

Thanks,
Jeremy

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jeremy,

You should be able to find whole chickens in any grocery store....and yes,
just cut them into 4 parts! You'll be a pro in no time! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "liebo1134" <liebo1134@yahoo.com>

Thanks for the response . . . a) where do i go about buying these whole
chickens and b) what
does quarters exactly mean? Just cut them into 4 parts??? I'm kind of new
to this and its
really scary . . .

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "liebo1134" <liebo1134@...> wrote:
>
> a) where do i go about buying these whole chickens and b) what
> does quarters exactly mean? Just cut them into 4 parts???
> I'm kind of new to this and its really scary . . .
>
Jeremy,
You can do like I do and just buy chicken parts. I buy chicken leg
quarters at Walmart for about 47 cents/lb in 10 lb bags. A leg
quarter is a leg/thigh/partial back combo. It is all one piece and
is a good size to feed most dogs. I also buy chicken backs by the
case. They are a little more difficult to find. I get a small
independent grocery store to special order them for me.

I find buying pieces is a lot easier than cutting up whole
chickens. I have a whole chicken in the freezer that someone gave
me and I keep putting off feeding it cause I just don't want to go
to the trouble to cut it up. I also have a whole turkey that was
given to me and it is still just sitting there in the freezer.

Also quarters and backs are a good bit cheaper then whole chickens
and you don't have to cut them up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

I feed 4 canines raw, 2 outside and 2 in their crates. The 2 outside
I will start feeding inside when the weather gets nasty. I will then
feed them on the vinyl table cloths. I hardly ever clean the vinyl or
the crates. The canines do a better job cleaning than I could. If I
do clean up after them, I use vinegar, safer for the dogs.

Good luck,

Roxane

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "Shannon Reed" clanreed@mac.com clanreed
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

I saw a photo once of 2 small dogs eating game hens in the bathtub. That would certainly
work for a Papillon and contain any mess you may be concerned about.

Doesn't work for me, as my Neapolitan Mastiffs just won't fit. Then again my clean up
consists of a good hand wash for myself and the dogs take care of the rest.

Shannon
www.basaltcanyonkennels.com

Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 6:04:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "serge
legault" writes:

I have a Papillon, so the bites would never be any bigger than a chicken
leg.

How messy will that meal be on the floors?

I remember giving a raw bone to another dog and having to wash the floor 20
minutes later and he was not finished yet.

****
Hi, Serge,

The first time my cats ate chicken legs, the fast one finished in 10 min.
and the slow one didn't quite get it all eaten but quit after about 20 min. Once
they got the hang of it, all 3 can down a chicken leg in 5 minutes. I'll bet
your dog will end up quicker than that--and soon.

I feed my cats on pieces of a linoleum table cloth, from which they
obligingly lick everything they can after they finish eating...I've never even
cleaned the table cloths with anything, and they've been in use for 6 months, now!

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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3.1. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:21 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 8:26:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kaebruney@yahoo.com writes:

jut to clarify.. are we talking about green trips or the white tripe in
grocery stores?

Kae,

i NEVER feed or recommend grocery store tripe. Green Tripe is for dogs.. and
as Laura A said, there is no tripe in human food.. white or green.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
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3.2. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

Denise and David Spotila <brookside_casa@...> wrote:
>
> Is green tripe a significant source of Omega 3's or is it just a
trace amount?
*****
Not significant, probably more than trace but not enough to count on to
mediate a heavily O6 diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (27)
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4a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 7:06:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Marylibcke@hotmail.com writes:

My dogs loved beef liver and brain, but will not touch pork liver. Anyone
with this or any suggestions. They like chicken gizzards too.

Mary Anne,

Liver is liver.. if they don't like pork liver don't feed it.. beef liver,
sheep or lamb liver, chicken or turkey liver, goat liver.. my dogs have even
tried ostrich liver.

if they don't like one kind of liver.. it's no big deal.. liver doesn't even
need to be more than 5% of the overall diet.. so where and how many different
types of liver they eat just isn't an issue, just so long as they get liver.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))

Mary Anne Libcke <Marylibcke@...> wrote:
>
>
> My dogs loved beef liver and brain, but will not touch pork liver.
Anyone with this or any suggestions.
*****
So don't feed pork liver.
Who said you have to feed pork liver?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: (unknown)
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:31 pm ((PDT))

> My puppy and adults are eating a large variety, but mostly Primal premixed
> along with meaty bones.

Kathy,

Ah. That's most likely your problem - the Primal!

It contains parsley (along with other veggies) and parsley can act as a
diuretic. Not all animals are sensitive to this effect, but for those that
are, well, you're seeing what happens.

Skip the Primal, go with a proper whole food raw diet, and let's see if that
makes the difference for your little guy.

Casey

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

I guess I really just need some clarification. Should I only be giving
organ meat once a week or is it ok to give a small fraction everyday?

Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?

Natalie, Patches, Bandit, and Jett

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

You give what works for your dog. I give a glop of organs most every day
(some days I forget...no big deal). If you give once a week, you'll be
giving in a larger quantity that could result in some messy clean up.
Again, no big deal (if you're not the one cleaning up).

I give entire meals of gizzards if that's what I thawed. Not often...but
when that's the bag I grab, that's what they get. Sucks to be the dog that
doesn't like gizzards that night :-)

On 10/24/07, nkayl <doglover72@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I guess I really just need some clarification. Should I only be giving
> organ meat once a week or is it ok to give a small fraction everyday?
>
> Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
> ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote
> Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
> ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?

Hi Natalie,
You can make a whole meal out of heart if your dogs like heart and
their bowels can tolerate it-heart seems to be easier for a dog in
that respect. Mine love lamb hearts, and i will often feed them solo.
Like Laura, i find it easier to give a smidgen of liver everyday. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

I have a question to add onto this one....the ducks I get are really boney. Would it be OK to supplement the boney duck with duck hearts? I know that hearts are considered meat, but I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate to feed a duck back and "pad" it with the hearts. This is for my sensitive lab and we're slowly working through one protein at a time. I've been feeding her like this for the past week with no ill effects, but wanted to make sure that frequent heart-heavy meals this month wouldn't affect her health.

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

> I have a 12 year old beagle/GR mix that I adopted 1 year ago. When
> he was given to me he was on Iams weight management (heave) and
> weighed an extremely fluffy 50lbs. So he was switched immediately
> to raw. We went to his yearly check up and he has gained 13lbs!
> Now I swear he looks better than he did before, but my vet got on me
> about his weight gain.

Feed raw, check his thyroid. Your vet is remiss, to say the least, if
he has discounted this possibility.

Definitely have the thyroid checked, but from you description he has no other symptoms.? I have a beagle and we are constantly fighting the weight issue.? He is 6 1/2 and this year I did?a full blood panel and it showed everything was perfect.? I just need to be more careful measuring his food and getting him to exercise more.....

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:14 pm ((PDT))

A full thyroid panel or just the one or two levels included in the normal
blood panel the vets run? In order to adequately diagnose and treat
hypothyroidism, you need to have the blood sent out to Dr. Dodds for the
full 6-panel thyroid test. Just one symptom is enough to warrant testing.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <moemahood@aol.com>
>
> Definitely have the thyroid checked, but from you description he has no
other symptoms.? I have a beagle and we are constantly fighting the weight
issue.? He is 6 1/2 and this year I did?a full blood panel and it showed
everything was perfect.? I just need to be more careful measuring his food
and getting him to exercise more.....

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Pup with worms
Posted by: "Annaliisa Readman" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi all-

Well...we went out for a poo this morning in the raining ash (we are in san diego surrounded by fires but not in any danger) and out came what looked like a spaghetti bowl. Laila is 4 months and I know that puppies are prone to worms, especially ones like her that love to sneak in a munch of stray poo, but I just wanted to see what everyone's opinion was on whether or not it could be food related. She hasn't had any wild game only chicken, beef, eggs and fish (and the fish has all been frozen to kill parasites). We are treating the worms and didn't mention the raw food to the vet, but I just thought I would put the question out to this list. Thanks for all your wisdom and advice.

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila
_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

Worms aren't contracted by a raw diet. Most worms common to puppies are
contracted via feces, ingesting fleas or passed on from the mother.
Here's a pretty good site explaining further.

http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/worms.html

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

Nope...not food related.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Annaliisa Readman" <amvilppu@hotmail.com>

Well...we went out for a poo this morning in the raining ash (we are in san
diego surrounded by fires but not in any danger) and out came what looked
like a spaghetti bowl. Laila is 4 months and I know that puppies are prone
to worms, especially ones like her that love to sneak in a munch of stray
poo, but I just wanted to see what everyone's opinion was on whether or not
it could be food related.

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

"Mal Firth" <firth_malcolm@...> wrote:
> Carnivores go "shopping" every time they go out looking for something
> to catch and kill ;-)
*****
They really do.
They do not go after every critter that comes their way though they
will take advantage of opportunity (consider this the "unadvertised
special"). A pack may undertake a cursory chase but call it quits
before scoring (and this would be blowing off a store because parking
is really awful); an individual wolf may take off after an inattentive
bunny but mostly small prey is not a notable source of nutrition
(similar perhaps to a shopper deciding that a small steak really isn't
going to feed the family).

And like all dedicated shoppers, packs look for the deals, the
closeouts, the introductory offers, the limited time only's. Except
that their deals are elk slowed by circumstance or separated form the
herd, their closeouts are the old and infirm, their introductory offers
are the newly born, and for wolf packs limited time offers are seasonal
windfall.

And--like humans--wolves do pay. Often with their lives.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:40 pm ((PDT))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>There are some people who include a small
> bit of veggies with the raw diet and their dogs still thrive on it.
*****
That a dog may thrive on "a small bit of veggies" is not an issue and
never has been. "A small bit of veggies" is no different,
substantively, than a small bit of table scraps or a small bit of
cheese or a small bit of cookie. A small bit is not worth discussing
much less debating. The people who feed one quarter of the diet as
veggies are the ones who need to reconsider what precisely their
intentions are. The people who include significant vegetation in
their dog's diet are misguided, one way or the other. And no, 25%
vegetation is not what dogs thrive on.

> Many people have written books about raw diets incorporating
veggies
> (or even grains) and claim their dogs live very long, healthy
lives.
*****
Claim. Good you included claim. I'd say the dogs survive despite
the diet, not because of it. You might as well use the same thinking
to defend kibble. Hey, dogs survive. I guess that means kibble is
healthy nutrition. Grains is grains, regardless of how they become
part of the diet. Inappropriate food is inappropriate food.

> No one really knows the best diet for a dog,
*****
But yes, I think we do. A diet appropriate to a species will always
be the best diet for that species. Dogs are wolves and we know from
the success of the species what is best for wolves; if what they ate
didn't sustain the species, the species would become extinct. It's
not that the best diet isn't known, it's that people have their own
agenda and for better or worse that's what determines the menu.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. Re: Blood in poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

"Jennifer" <kali_moonwolf@...> wrote:
Do you think if I cut the bone up it
> would help, or give more meat so it slips out faster?
*****
Getting out "faster" generally results in food not being optimally
digested. Diarrhea is food getting out faster. You want food to take
precisely the amount of time it needs for optimal processing.

I suggest you don't fiddle. Don't cut the bones smaller--you want your
pup to chomp and wrassle with his meals. Generally you can never go
wrong with more meat, but at this moment in your rawfeeding history,
more meat might only produce loose stools which would spook you in the
other direction.

Since it sounds like the issue is already abating, I'd say continue on
as you are and watch for signs that the kid is adjusting. If you want
to add more meat, do it in increments, gently.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: A Meat Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

"totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:
>
> When I give a meat meal do I cut the meat off the bone or do I let her
> (30-lbs) rip the meat off the bone and them remove the bone?
*****
Yes.
Or no.

If the bone is for all intents and purposes inedible and the meat is
generous, let the dog do the work. There is hardly a better way for a
dog to get meat than by having to rip it from the bone.

If the bone is edible, then of course let the dog manage the whole
project.

If the bone is one of those personally iffy ones like pork chops or
bone-in chuck roasts or country style pork ribs, or if the bone is
pretty small or for whatever reason you just aren't comfortable with
its role in the meal, then cut the meat off and feed the meal as
meatymeat and be done with it. I give such trimmed bones to my cat for
further tidying up.

> thought I needed to give her JUST a meat meal
*****
No you do not.
You should always consider in some semi-conscious, subliminal way how
much meat you've been feeding and if the tally seems low, feed more
meat. You can add meat to a meal, you can make meat the meal. You can
do it one way one day and other way the next.

The point is: the diet should include a LOT of meat. How you get that
lovely stuff into your dog is completely open to interpretation. If
you can provide both protein and body part variety by feeding nothing
but meaty bones, do it. I mean, you'll probably not be able to
(especially with the liver and heart), but you can try and you never
know.

What's nice IMO about using prey as a guideline is that sometimes the
part is meaty and sometimes it's bony but when the whole dang thing has
been eaten, the result is quite a lot of meat has gone into the dog.

Also, does
> anybody worry about whether or not the organ meat that the dog eats
> could possibly be "diseased" ie heart,brains,lungs?
*****
If you buy organs from a source devoted to selling high quality
comestibles for human consumption, you can pretty much not worry about
disease, period. If you buy direct from ranchers and farmers and
fisherman and hunters you might want to educate yourself about
potential diseases. OTOH, wolves regularly remove from the herd the
weak and old and infirm, so it would seem that disease is not an issue
with the species.

Would I be able to
> tell if the organ was?
*****'
This summer a bunch of us with too much time on our hands (or not
enough money) got together to pluck chickens (consensus is it wasn't
worth it); one of the birds I butchered was a. bloated and b. the owner
of a really nasty looking liver. The bird was returned to the seller
who said from the looks of it the bird had hepatitis. I did not add
the bird to my hoard. My point is, a sick organ does not look
healthy. It looks diseased.

I think that unless you plan to get your meats from unreliable sources,
you are worrying too much.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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13. intro from nj
Posted by: "Maryellen" mprinces@ptd.net maryellen212
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

hi all, i am from northern nj, and have been feeding raw for a little over 6 months. i fed it a few years ago, but wasnt sure about it, and just started it again after doing more research. my 3 dogs eat half chickens, venison, turkey, beef, mackarel, sardines, elk, bison, tripe,rabbit, organ meats, any meats i can get that they like. .
Maryellen
Rufus CGC,TT,BBTD
www.collarmania.com
www.imageevent.com/princess21
www.ellaslead.com
http://wallacethepitbull.blip.tv/file/147911/
http://www.onetruemedia.com/otm_site/view_shared?p=a6931c2d4b6e86d97342c&skin_id=0&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url
http://www.theoasisofmysoul.com/

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