[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12192

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Coaxing to gnaw bone
From: Mary Anne Libcke

2a. Re: looking for information on raw feeding
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Puppy growth too rapid?
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Puppy growth too rapid?
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: Feeding Quail
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Feeding Quail
From: Laura Atkinson

5a. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
From: Mary Anne Libcke
5d. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
From: Andrea
5e. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
From: costrowski75
5f. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
From: Laura Atkinson

6a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: katkellm
6c. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Greta Hill
6d. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Denise and David Spotila
6f. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Goose Bones
From: carnesbill
7b. Re: Goose Bones
From: jennifer_hell

8a. Has anyone heard of Nature's Variety Prairie?
From: tlduran1
8b. ADMIN/Re: Has anyone heard of Nature's Variety Prairie?
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: ADMIN/Re: Has anyone heard of Nature's Variety Prairie?
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Venison! I'm so excited! Bear with me!
From: jennifer_hell
9b. Re: Venison! I'm so excited! Bear with me!
From: katkellm

Messages
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1a. Re: Coaxing to gnaw bone
Posted by: "Mary Anne Libcke" Marylibcke@hotmail.com libckem
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:45 am ((PDT))

I too am having a little trouble getting my border collie to eat. He looks at me like I am crazy! He is 7 and was a rescue at about 6-8 months of age and has had a fear problem. I keep telling him that he is a good boy and to go ahead. I now cut the meat in strips while still on the bone for him. That way he gets a grip on the meat. I also found that if I feed him under the table as opposed to on the kitchen floor out in the open he does better. I guess he likes his privacy. I have no problem with the puppy! he just grabs the chicken leg or whatever and goes to town. Hopefully I can teach an old dog new tricks.

Thanks for everything, you guys are great.

Mary Anne

Marylibcke@hotmail.com

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: megan.giselle@gmail.comDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:52:47 -0400Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Coaxing to gnaw bone

Hi, Alicia!YQW, and TYVM! ^_^Looking forward to your updates!TCGiselleGiselle, great tips, thanks so much! Will let you know how it goes.>> Alicia>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: looking for information on raw feeding
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

Becky, one of the books I started with was "Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom
Lonsdale, and then "Work Wonders" also by Dr. Lonsdale. They are
great for answering the "Why" question to raw feeding. For the "how"
I honestly think the best resource is this list. If you get a g-mail
account specificly for the list or sign up for the daily digest
you'll have a book in no time. There are tons of posts every week
here, and most pertain to newbies starting out. You could also go
into the archives (through the website on yahoo groups) and choose a
date and start reading.

The short version:
Eventually you will feed a variety of body parts from a variety of
animals consisting of mostly meat, some bone, and some organ. At
first it is best to choose one protein source and feed only that for
a week or two. Organs and other proteins are best introduced slowly
after that.
How much? Start with about 2-3% of the dog's ideal ADULT weight and
add/reduce depending on if the dog gets skinny/chunky.
What to expect: A very happy dog. Most problems that newbies
encounter are due to handler error such as too much food, too much
variety, etc. Roadblocks might include loose stools, smelly farts,
vomiting and re-eating food. . . All sound worse than they really are.

Most of the time a dog with food allergies doesn't have much of a
problem on a raw diet. Grains are usually the worst culprit and
since there aren't grains in a raw diet the itchies go away.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...>
wrote:

> Could anyone suggest some books articles etc.? Our concerns mostly
> stem from what and how much to feed as well as what to expect in
> the beginning.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Puppy growth too rapid?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:58 am ((PDT))

Annaliisa Readman <amvilppu@...> wrote:

> It is my understanding that the 2-3 percent is appropriate for
> adult dogs but not puppies. What I have read is that puppies need
> 10 percent of their body weight

The 2-3% is calculated from the estimated ideal ADULT weight, not
current weight, so it is still ok for puppies. The 10% is calculated
from the current puppy weight (until the 10% is larger than 2-3% adult
weight). Both should work fine as starting points(especailly when you
add/reduce food based on how the pup looks).

Andrea

Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Puppy growth too rapid?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:59 am ((PDT))

2% to 3% of their *expected adult weight* is appropriate for puppies,
and adjust as needed. It has the advantage over the 10% of puppy
weight of not needing to adjust as much as they grow. Although my
current puppy, at probably a svelte 36 lbs (I should take her over and
see where she's at) is eating as much as my 17 mo old, 58+ lb
boy...because she is just that active.

Some people feed 3 meals from weaning to 3 - 4 months and go to 2
meals around 6 months. I'm fuzzier. I do two meals and a good snack
when they're under 3 months...and then go to 2 meals until I feel like
switching them to a single meal. (And, for those who have been
watching with amusement, 8 mo old Robin is now 2 days into 1 meal a
day. She loves the bigger meal, but is a little concerned that she's
missing something in the AM. This is the longest I've had a puppy on
2 meals a day, simply because I didn't feel up to dealing with her
"feed me now" temper tantrums in the morning.)

On 10/22/07, Annaliisa Readman <amvilppu@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is my understanding that the 2-3 percent is appropriate for adult dogs but not puppies. What I have read is that puppies need 10 percent of their body weight and that is what I have been feeding my 17 week old boxer puppy for the last 5 weeks.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: Feeding Quail
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

"cynthia iparraguirre" <cyn7711@...> wrote:
>
> I resently bought some quail, but now I am afraid to feed it to my
lab. Is she too big to eat quail?
*****
Cynthia, you have GOT to trim your messages! Please, please check
what you've left below you signature. If there's anything more than
a few lines CUT IT OFF! Thanks.

Well, quail is without a doubt too small for my Lab. And also too
small for my goldens and the BC. However, the 10 pound cat gets them
often--split into two meals--and loves them.

My guess is if you butterfly it (open it up like a book, with its
spine as the "hinge") your Lab will get maybe a chomp out of it but
will not likely hurt herself. But beyond the issue of difficult
swallowing, quails just don't offer enough food for their
considerable price.

Better to feed whole game hens or chicken, depending on how many
times a day you feed.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Feeding Quail
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:01 am ((PDT))

Yep, way to big. Please send it to me immediately for my smaller than
a lab Siberians. <grin>

If you've got polite eaters, it's probably just fine although it may
take a few of 'em to make a meal. If it was cheap...then OK, but
don't spend good money on small stuff is my general rule.

On 10/22/07, cynthia iparraguirre <cyn7711@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I resently bought some quail, but now I am afraid to feed it to my lab. Is she too big to eat quail?
> Cynthia flores
>
--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

Feed eggs to bowel tolerance, really. Some people have dogs who can
and do eat an egg every day. If you would be ok eating the fish
regularly your dog should be fine too. I know there is a concern when
regularly feeding large slow growing fish because they can have a
buildup of heavy metals, so I wouldn't feed tuna and the like every
day. And of course, some dogs are rediculously picky when it comes to
fish, so don't buy any in bulk until you are sure your pup will eat it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:

> is there any limitation on how often they should be fed and would
> they be different for adult dogs versus puppies? We have access to
> high-quality fresh fish and are inclined to feed it regularly but
> just want to make sure that is alright.

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:
>I was just wondering what the general guidelines are for feeding
eggs and fish.
*****
Easy guidelines:
If it's wild anything, ask Fish and Wildlife (or local fisherman) if
there are any parasite or toxin issues to be aware of.

If it's farmed anything, parasites won't get you and toxic
accmumlations are generally tolerable if they exist at all but
nutrient quality is diminished.

> but is there any limitation on how often they should be fed and
would they be different for
> adult dogs versus puppies?
*****
Once quality control has been assured, you can feed both to bowel
tolerance, which means you start small and gradually work your way to
bigger meals as stool stability warrants. Doesn't matter pups or
adults.

I have read before that Herring
> shouldn't be fed everyday, but I am not sure beyond that.
*****
Unless the herring in your part of the world is suspect, there's no
reason why you couldn't feed SOME herring every day; but I would
recommend against feeding it exclusively every day. Herring is a
fine source of Omega 3 and should be fed if you have it. But it
should be part of a varied diet when at all possible.

My guess is until your dogs are fully acclimated to herring, large
doses of it will produce some pretty interesting stool experiences.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5c. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
Posted by: "Mary Anne Libcke" Marylibcke@hotmail.com libckem
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:29 am ((PDT))

I just bought on sale some whole Talapia in hopes the dogs would try that out. Anyone have success with this or did I waste my money. It was actually two very large whole fish for $3.00. I have them in the freezer waiting for the best time to try them. Any suggestions?

Mary Anne Libcke
Marylibcke@hotmail.com

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: poketmouse45@yahoo.comDate: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:05:29 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish

Feed eggs to bowel tolerance, really. Some people have dogs who can and do eat an egg every day. If you would be ok eating the fish regularly your dog should be fine too. I know there is a concern when regularly feeding large slow growing fish because they can have a buildup of heavy metals, so I wouldn't feed tuna and the like every day. And of course, some dogs are rediculously picky when it comes to fish, so don't buy any in bulk until you are sure your pup will eat it.Andrea--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:> is there any limitation on how often they should be fed and would > they be different for adult dogs versus puppies? We have access to > high-quality fresh fish and are inclined to feed it regularly but > just want to make sure that is alright.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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5d. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:40 am ((PDT))

Tilapia is one of those that lots of dogs are iffy about. Geiger won't
eat it unless I threaten to give it to his brother. Give it a try, but
I wouldn't be too offended if the dogs don't like it much.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Mary Anne Libcke <Marylibcke@...>
wrote:

> I just bought on sale some whole Talapia in hopes the dogs would try
that out. Anyone have success with this or did I waste my money.

Messages in this topic (7)
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5e. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:47 am ((PDT))

"Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Tilapia is one of those that lots of dogs are iffy about. Geiger
won't
> eat it unless I threaten to give it to his brother.
*****
Ha!
My dogs beg me to feed it to someone else, somewhere else entirely.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5f. Re: Feeding Eggs and Fish
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))

Of the 13 dogs we have here, 10 of them have tried tilapia at one
point or another. I may as well simply feed them the money I spent to
buy it. They'd at least have fun shredding that!

On 10/23/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
> *****
> Ha!
> My dogs beg me to feed it to someone else, somewhere else entirely.
> Chris O

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...>
wrote:
>
> Why do people rave about this tripe business when wolves supposedly
> don't eat stomach contents?

As has been said it's not the contents, rather the stomach itself.
Tripe is not the superfood that some tout it to be. It's not
nutritious enough to rave about.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
It's not
> nutritious enough to rave about.

Hi Jess,
I think part of the rave reviews concerning tripe, at least for my 3
dogs, is how much they really like it. It might not be better for
them and is only as useful as any part of a critter is useful in the
scheme of things, but mine go doggy nuts when tripe is being served.
Plus, i get a kick out of watching them shake their heads before they
eat it. I guess i think it helps them connect to their instinctual
side on some level.
KathyM who probably analyzes stuff too much

Messages in this topic (8)
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6c. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Greta Hill" GretaHill@aol.com sunstate23
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

The dogs love it. Last year when one of my dogs was sick and turned
down everything else, she would still eat tripe. Plus it's fairly
inexpensive, and helps add variety to the menu.

Greta

Messages in this topic (8)
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6d. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>
> Why do people rave about this tripe business when wolves supposedly
> don't eat stomach contents?
*****
Wolves rarely eat the stomach CONTENTS of large prey. They do however
eat the stomach TISSUE after flinging the contents to the four winds
and scavengers.

Green tripe is the stomach TISSUE with some--little--contents stuck
onto it.

The people who are feed "stomach grass" are trying to emulate something
that doesn't happen.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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6e. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:53 am ((PDT))

I have not been able to find a nutritional breakdown on tripe anywhere. Does anyone know where to find this info?

David and Denise Spotila

Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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6f. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

Denise and David Spotila <brookside_casa@...> wrote:
>
> I have not been able to find a nutritional breakdown on tripe
anywhere. Does anyone know where to find this info?
*****
http://www.greentripe.com

Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: Goose Bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:06 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> Bill, I wrote about how I pierced my finger on a turkey needle shaped
> bone in my dog's poop (when I picked it up with a plastic bag, it
> pierced the plastic and my finger).

Jennifer, I remember your post. I will say that of the 5 years I've
been on several raw feeding lists, I can't remember hearing of anyone
else getting cut by a partially digested bone. That should show you
how common it is. :)

> I heard some people say that bones
> get digested better when the dog has accustomed to raw. Is that true?

Yes, It has to do with the dogs digestive juices getting more acidic
when they eat a raw diet.

> I have to admit I was a little shocked at the sharpness of the bone
> and the fact that it went through the intestines sharp like that.

That should show you that our dogs are not as fragile as some would
think. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: Goose Bones
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> That should show you that our dogs are not as fragile as some would
> think. :)
>
Thank you, Bill. I hope she'll digest the bones better over time.
Perhaps most people don't realize the very sharp pieces in their dogs
poop, if they don't have to pick it up. Lol!
I'm not scared Mandy will hurt herself. She also chews everything
well, IMO.

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Has anyone heard of Nature's Variety Prairie?
Posted by: "tlduran1" tlduran1@yahoo.com tlduran1
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

I have someone wanting to buy a pup from me and so I've been telling
her about the raw feeding. She says she feeds the Nature's Variety
Prairie. She wanted to know if she could switch between raw and this
food. I checked it out online...........but was wondering what others
in this group know about it, and if they had any ideas on how to talk
to her about raw feeding. She really likes this food...
Anyway, thanks in advance, I anxiously await to hear what others have
to say!
Tara

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. ADMIN/Re: Has anyone heard of Nature's Variety Prairie?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

Please take this topic to RawChat or private.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: ADMIN/Re: Has anyone heard of Nature's Variety Prairie?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Or to the trash, where such products belong? <grin>

On 10/23/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
> Please take this topic to RawChat or private.
> Thank you.
> Chris O
> Mod Team

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Venison! I'm so excited! Bear with me!
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

Lol! On Thursday I'll be getting venison! That is so great, as it's
not easy to find good stuff here.
They said they have ribs and knuckles, whatever they mean with that? I
hope they left enough meat on it. They have quite a lot, so I already
tried to make space in the freezer.
So: I'm only on week two on raw. Mandy's doing great (55lb pitbull
girl), she has no problems with diarrhea, vomitting, loose stool,
everything's perfect.
Because I'm having such a hard time to find stuff, I ran out of
chicken and only had carcasses and hearts left. I added beef muscle
meat then, and she's doing great with carcasses, heart and beef. Then
someone gave me turkey drums, the very meaty thick kind from free
range poultry. I know, that's wayyy early, but I didn't want it to
waste, so I fed her one and a little beef meat. She's doing great.I
froze the rest,cramped it into the freezer (sheesh, freezers look so
big first, and then nothing fits in!)
Am I jinxing all this if I introduce venison next week? I know I have
to wait longer to give her liver, and I do wait. But the venison, if
it has enough meat, would add more meat to her diet. If it doesn't
have much meat, it's pretty useless, right?
Are ribs okay? And what about knuckles?
Gah, thanks for reading all this. Can you tell I'm just a tiny bit
excited? Lol!

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Venison! I'm so excited! Bear with me!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:01 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
> Am I jinxing all this if I introduce venison next week?

Hi Jennifer,
Absolutely not, imo. Venison is probably top feed choice on my list,
both for species appropriateness and doggy reviews.

> Are ribs okay? And what about knuckles?
This is just how it works out for me. I let mine eat any bone as long
as it is covered with something--meat, skin, hair... I don't know how
you are getting the deer but i imagine if you are getting knuckles you
will be getting the whole leg which i doubt will be stripped naked
because i don't think anyone bothers to do that. So assuming anything
you get is covered with something edible for your dog, i would feed
it. When Mandy has stripped them there bones down to naked bones take
them away and toss them. I don't count these types of bone as a meal,
though, and would consider them an excellent keep a dog busy, chew
work out and doggy fun activity. Just feed a little less food,
depending on how much meat is actually on the bones, so you don't over
feed Mandy and give her diarrhea from too much food.

KathyM who thinks you should be waaayyy excited, Great Score

Messages in this topic (2)
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