[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12184

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. vets and raw battles
From: raffiangel2

2a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Cindy Marabito
2b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: moemahood@aol.com
2c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: woofwoofgrrl
2d. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: michael@brooksweb.org
2e. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Finster Boy

3a. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: Doguefan@aol.com
3c. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: Renate

4a. Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
From: sfed57
4b. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
From: moemahood@aol.com

5. Re:
From: droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net

6a. Cats coats not shiney
From: lovemypitbull99
6b. Re: Cats coats not shiney
From: bluegracepwd
6c. Re: Cats coats not shiney
From: Casey Post

7.1. throwing up
From: Erika H
7.2. Re: throwing up
From: Giselle
7.3. Re: throwing up
From: katkellm

8. Razor sharp turkey bones
From: jennifer_hell

Messages
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1. vets and raw battles
Posted by: "raffiangel2" snazgal@aol.com raffiangel2
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:53 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

I've gone through 4 vets too...by leaving the 4th I was so
frustrated, I about got nasty and defensive...I asked her...how many
nutrition classes did you have in vet school....her answer
was...one..but only an elective...I smiled and left...
I checked locally again, and found a vet clinic right in my own
shopping center...asked them if they have any foreign vets...girl
looked at me like I was nuts...yes she said..Dr ....is from S.
Africa.
I asked for an appointment with him.
My luck he was onsite and had a few minutes to spare.
I introduced myself and asked point blank...what do you think about
raw feeding of dogs?
His response was...'is there anyother way?'....Urekaaaaaaaaaaa yeahhhh
I was so excited...and we chatted more, telling him of my bad
experiences with non raw oriented vets....
He also explained that its moreso the American vets that are anti raw
because they have never lived and had dogs overseas...America is one
of the very few countries who even has kibble....so his background is
in raw...and is anti kibble.
He has educated the other 4 vets in this office and now they all have
a better knowledge of it, and from what I've heard, they're also
converting their patients to raw!!!! yipee....there is hope lol.
Oh..he also mentioned...because I told him my ex vet told me my dog
would choke to death on bones....he said..the chances of a dog
choking are kibble, string, junk they find around lazy households, is
far greater then a dog choking on the bones we feed them.
Anyone is South Florida needing a terrific vet...let me know.

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

I recently had a trauma experience with my cat who was attacked and
had to be rushed to the emergency room. I treat homeopathically and
also have a conventional vet who respects my raw feeding and
homeopathy...she is even on our raw feeders list. However, this
situation called for immediate measures and I went to the hospital
right up the road from my house on the highway. I was hesitant about
disclosing our diet and getting the usual speech and eye roll.
However, the doctor who had a full waiting room of Science Diet, was
very understanding and even allowed me to bring Fernando some Arnica.
He was phenomenal about not rushing to surgery which would have
probably been an error and opted for the wait and see. Fernando was
pretty bad off, but was allowed to come home that night. Dr. Meyer
respected that the TLC Fern would get at home would probably do
wonders for his recovery and he was right.

We did have to do some antibiotics and Fern wasn't eating. I was
force feeding him a homemade broth supplemented with baby food, but
finally quit to see if he'd eat on his own. He wasn't eating, so
willing to try anything, I let Dr. Meyer give him A/D. I can bend a
little, too. After less than a day, though, Fern wanted back on his
raw...and wanted to eat it on his own! The point of all of this is
the vet, even though he's not a proponent of raw or homeopathy, told
me it's only because he's unfamiliar with that territory. We were
able to come to a compromise, get the cat well and both learn some
new things...mine being that not all conventional vets are
meanies...I have had quite a few "unsavory" experiences as you can
imagine in rescue. Finally, Dr. Meyer had a laugh with me..he said I
knew Fernando wasn't a cat food cat from his x-rays and his bone
density...when I got home, I realized he'd given raw feeding sort of
a left handed compliment. I believe we are experiencing a wave of the
future when vets and us raw feeders will someday meet on the same
page. Cindy

Messages in this topic (17)
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2b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:35 am ((PDT))

Maybe add some green tripe, if you aren't already doing so -- it contains enzymes that will help
his system break down his food easier.? Feed? low fat -- chicken breast and rabbit.? Then start adding fat
back in gradually -- his body will get back into balance, it just takes time.

Vets can be idiots.? I adopted a dog out a few weeks ago that was immune system compromised when
I pulled her out of the pound -- she was fighting kennel cough and had two bad teeth.? The family that
took her brought her to their vet and now she is eating eukanuba because the vet said raw was bad to feed
a dog that is sick....ugh!? Had I known they were going to do that I would never had adopted them the dog.

?Maureen

Maureen- From your mouth to God's ears!!
My dog was diagnosed with Colitis today. I'm in the process of
researching it, but a 'bland diet' is the recomendation. I just can't
quit the raw. I have to find a way to incorporate it in such a way that
it doesn't aggravate the colitis.
I believe it's stress related. Not the raw food like the vet said.

I'll find a way to get on top of this one!
Thanx, Patricia

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Messages in this topic (17)
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2c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

I'm in favor of a starting with a generic answer - "Oh, he gets a really
high quality diet so I'm sure it's not his regular food" and hope the
vet doesn't persue it futher. If you've seen the vet enough for other
issues and they know you are a "good" dog person, they probably won't
push further.

Christine

Finster Boy wrote:
>
>
> Thanx Casey- You're so right when you wrote: "I need them to see the
> animal, not the diet."
> On those rare occasions when you have to see a vet in an emergency,
> and the emergency is a gastro-intestinal issue,what do you say when the
> vet asks, "What have you been feeding him?"
>
> Thanx for the support!

Messages in this topic (17)
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2d. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "michael@brooksweb.org" michael@brooksweb.org newyawkyanx
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

Patricia- First of all, if you continue to see this guy, ask him to back up his assertions! Sounds like he just threw some words out there with no support and expected you to just take them on faith because "he is the expert." It has been my experience, as well as much learning from this list, that vets are NOT nutritionists ... and this could be an opportunity to teach him.
-michael

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:55 -0000, Finster Boy wrote
> room, he chided me for the raw diet.

> is causing my dogs's bloody diarreah and discomfort. He said he can't
> digest fat. When he gave me the print out for the I/D and we looked at
> the ingredient list, guess what was in it? Animal fat!
> The vet also blames the variety: switching from poultry, lamb, venison,
> beef as a contributing factor. I thought variety was a good thing.
>
> Here's the real ridiculous part: when I tried to explain I want to feed
> my dog a natural diet like in the wild, he said well, he's not in the
> wild, he domesticated. I asked if that changes their digestive tract
> operation? He says YES, definately. Can you believe this guy?

> Thanx,
> Patricia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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2e. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Finster Boy" finster_boy1@yahoo.com finster_boy1
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Thanx, Michael- I will definately do that.....with the NEXT vet- I
can't go back to this guy.
Patricia

Messages in this topic (17)
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3a. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

nikkisevy@... wrote:
>
> I am inquiring about feeding a pregnant girl. She weighs
80 lbs
> before pregnancy. When and how much do I increase the food. Are
there any
> foods I should be concerned about feeding her?
*****
What are you feeding now?

Generally speaking although of course each bitch will make different
demands, if the raw menu you are feeding comprises both protein and
body part variety, you can continue to feed the same but more of it.
Include an appropriate amount of dietary bone and organs and expect
that at some point as your girl has less room for a big bellyfull that
she'll reject bones and look for more meat, including organs.

I'm sure others will give you better answers...often posting on
weekends results in few responses.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

Hello and Congrats!? The first month you can feed the same amount that you have been as long as it seemed sufficient to keep her in a good healthy weight.? Mind you, some girls get a little nautious around week 3, and they may start to get picky.? If she does not eat one meal, don't stress...pick it up and try again later.? My female mastiff went off bone really early?? She had always eaten chicken, but when she was prego she would not touch the stuff!
She got very picky and I found I had to cut a lot of the meat up to entice her to eat.? She wasvery tired and "mopey".? She wouldalways eat the red meat, any kind of heart, and she LOVED the organs just like I was told.?
The best advice I got, was to give her a large dish with great variety and let her eat what she wanted.? She would pick through and get all the t hings that enticed her that particular meal time...often the next feeding she chose something totally different.? She ate very little bone, but some time after she did eat chicken again. LOL
I really try and focus so much on variety. I wish I could afford more buffalo and venison, but in So. Cal that is very expensive for dogs that are eating 3 and 4 pounds a day!? LOL? But I do feed fish (salmon, tuna(their favorite), mackeral), pork, beef (scrap, cheek meat, tripe/organ/meat blend), chicken, turkey(ground, necks), whole cut goat, lamb breats, chicken organ mixture, GTT tripe/gullet/trachea mix.
Just don't stress at her pickiness.??It goes off and on, and she will get all that she needs. Good Luck!

Chelsea
www.bruinbordeaux.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Wow, your mastiff sounds just like Bella, my shih tzu.(5 weeks preg). I
love your idea of giving a dish of bits of everything. I will try that. AT
this point all she really wants to eat is pork kidney, though I did manage
to get a lamb chop into her by feeding it to her bit by bit. And she's ok
with liver. Won't touch chicken at all.
Renate

On 10/20/07, Doguefan@aol.com <Doguefan@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello and Congrats!? The first month you can feed the same amount that you
> have been as long as it seemed sufficient to keep her in a good healthy
> weight.? Mind you, some girls get a little nautious around week 3, and they
> may start to get picky.? If she does not eat one meal, don't stress...pick
> it up and try again later.? My female mastiff went off bone really early??
> She had always eaten chicken, but when she was prego she would not touch the
> stuff!
> She got very picky and I found I had to cut a lot of the meat up to entice
> her to eat.?
> .
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi All, almost a month on raw now and doing great! The girls have been
mainly on chicken quarters but we are introducing new things now, the
pork shoulders went over great! A friend stoped by today with a giant
moose heart (the thing is bigger than my head!) and some deer antlers.
I was wondering if the heart should be given as an entire meal or just
a little here and there as a snack, or is it just our preference?
Also, should it be frozen for a while first or can I just give it to
them as is?

Thanks from Shawna, Ruby, and Raven

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if the heart should be given as an entire meal
> or just a little here and there as a snack, or is it just
> our preference?

I would add just a little to a few meals a week now and gradually
increase the amount over time. I give my 2 Great Danes abuot 3/4lb
each of beef heart two or three times a week as an addition to a meal.

> Also, should it be frozen for a while first or can I just give it to
> them as is?

It would probably be ok to feed now but many here would suggest
freezing for 2 or 3 weeks first because of parasites. I suggest
freezing simply to give your dogs another 2 or 3 weeks of adjusting to
the raw diet before giving them such rich meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

I was wondering if the heart should be given as an entire meal
> or just a little here and there as a snack, or is it just
> our preference?

I feed beef heart as a meal all the time.? My dogs love it -- they love everything though....; )

?Maureen

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5. Re:
Posted by: "droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net" droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net droghedabullmastiff
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

I have been feeding RAW only a few months to my Chihuahua puppy and 3 year old Bullmastiff bitch. On Oct.13 the Bullmastiff had her first litter , 8 females 1 male. This is the strongest litter I have seen in 30 years of breeding at 4 days old they were climbing over the 6 inch wall of the whelping box!! The wall is now 12 inches high and so far they haven't made it over the top again.no c-section needed and she has plenty of milk. I will never go back to commercial dog food!!!!!! RoseTRhe _m,_._,___

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6a. Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "lovemypitbull99" lovemypitbull99@yahoo.com lovemypitbull99
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:26 pm ((PDT))

++++++++++Mod note: please sign all emails ++++++++++++++++

My cats have been on raw diet for a month. Since then, I've noticed
their coats aren't shiney anymore. Any ideas? Am I missing soomething
in their food?
They get citric acid(tiny bit), parsley, bone meal, and a bit of
lecithin granules and nutritional yeast as added nutrients.

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi ?

rather than missing something, I'd suggest removing the citric acid,
the parsley, the bone meal, the lecithin granules, and the nutritional
yeast.

Instead, feed real food such as chicken drumsticks, sardines, egg, etc.

Real food - not substitutes is the key.

regards,

Jane

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:37 pm ((PDT))

> My cats have been on raw diet for a month. Since then, I've noticed
> their coats aren't shiney anymore. Any ideas? Am I missing soomething
> in their food?
> They get citric acid(tiny bit), parsley, bone meal, and a bit of
> lecithin granules and nutritional yeast as added nutrients.
***************

Um, wow.

I'm guessing that you're following some kind of "recipe"?

Do yourself (and your cats) a huge favor and head on over to

www.rawfedcats.org.

That'll help you ditch the recipe and feed real food -
and you'll see an improvement in your cats' health for it.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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7.1. throwing up
Posted by: "Erika H" aeriqua@gmail.com jazzeriqua
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:34 pm ((PDT))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++

Help?? Just started raw feeding today with 2 aussies and a cockerpoo
mix, with chicken thighs. One aussie really couldn't figure out what
to do with the thigh. The cockerpoo got a chcken leg, and ate about
half of it. The other aussie ate all her thigh, then the other thigh,
then the rest of the leg...and then proceeded to throw it all up, and
re-eat it, and throw it up again. This happened about 4 times, until
I threw away the last throwup of skin and a few bones. What did I do
wrong?? Did I jump in too fast? Was there a warning in all the
moderator's messages that I missed by just glancing through them. I'm
really hoping not to be up all night with a vomiting dog. She seems
fine now... thank you for any help you can give...

Messages in this topic (35)
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7.2. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:14 am ((PDT))

Hi, Erika!
Too much new, all at once, is my guess.

While feeding whole prey model isn't rocket science, there are um,
guidelines you can use to make the introductory process easier on your dogs,
and yourself.

I'll post some links to archived messages and websites for you to print out
and review, so you can make a more focused plan to introduce raw to your
dogs;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://mypetcarnivore.com/dogs_eating.htm

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758*

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336*

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141648
post# 141648
TC and keep us posted on your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/21/07, Erika H <aeriqua@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++
>
> Help?? Just started raw feeding today with 2 Aussies and a Cockapoo
> mix, with chicken thighs.
>

<snip>
>

thank you for any help you can give...
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (35)
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7.3. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Erika H" <aeriqua@...> wrote:>
> The other aussie ate all her thigh, then the other thigh,
> then the rest of the leg...and then proceeded to throw it all up, and
> re-eat it, and throw it up again.

Hi,
I don't think that you did anything wrong. I'm thinking that your
enthusiastic aussie just ate too fast and her tummy, being new to raw
and not quit up to speed, didn't have the digestive juices there and
ready to do their job, so up the meat came. She re-ate it and you let
her do so, so both of you handled the situation just right. It wasn't
an "i'm sick" vomit, it was an "i need to process this again" vomit.
While it might seem gross to people, it is just right a for dog. I would
suggest maybe trying something bigger next time, maybe a chicken
quarter or half a chicken to slow her down. She won't vomit like this
all the time, so don't worry that you are in for a lot of mess. KathyM

Messages in this topic (35)
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8. Razor sharp turkey bones
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:40 am ((PDT))

Ouch! I pierced my finger through a plastic bag, picking up my dog's
poop (sorry, TMI!)this AM. There was a needle sized bone in it, that
managed to pierce the bag and my finger and draw blood, lol. It's
impressive how our dogs' digestive systems work! I'd have thought
something that can pierce my skin could harm my dog. Fascinating!

Jennifer with Mandy (who loved the turkey leg the night before!)

Messages in this topic (1)
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