[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12176

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Cleaning up with vinegar (was Re: Newbie)
From: mmc2315

2a. Re: bin it or feed it?
From: colliewoman

3a. Re: Restrictive diet questions
From: Andrea

4a. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
From: Andrea

5.1. Re: New Here
From: Andrea

6a. Kitten
From: Felicia Kost
6b. Re: Kitten
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Fish oil capsules Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Flax seed oil
From: Tina Berry
7b. Fish oil capsules Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Flax seed oil
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Illness
From: costrowski75

9.1. Re: Newbie
From: costrowski75
9.2. Re: Newbie
From: Laura Atkinson
9.3. Re: Newbie
From: costrowski75

10.1. Re: Tripe
From: Sandee Lee
10.2. Re: Tripe
From: carnesbill
10.3. Re: Tripe
From: ginny wilken
10.4. Re: Tripe
From: costrowski75
10.5. Re: Tripe
From: jrtsnabc
10.6. Re: Tripe
From: carnesbill
10.7. Re: Tripe
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
From: scalla70
11b. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
From: Andrea
11c. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
From: carnesbill
11d. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
From: Denise Strother

12. Re: Anal glands prone to infection-treating the gland..Patricia.
From: Ladynyny@aol.com

Messages
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1.1. Cleaning up with vinegar (was Re: Newbie)
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> Although I **highly** recommend diluting the white vinegar. Have you ever
> stuck your head in a crate to wipe out the vinegar you just spritzed in
> there? <grin> If it hurts me to smell it, I can only imagine what it does
> to a dog's more sensitive sniffer!
>

We wash our wood & tile floors with white vinegar diluted with water. I usually add some
drops of essential oil---peppermint or orange or lavendar---to cut the vinegar smell.

Any reason a little essential oil (in the diluted vinegar wash) couldn't be used in a dog's crate?

Michelle

Messages in this topic (200)
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2a. Re: bin it or feed it?
Posted by: "colliewoman" donna.frankland@ukonline.co.uk colliewoman
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Donna!
> Umm,that would be Brawn, or in my neck of the woods (New
> Jersey, not too far from Pennsylvania Dutch country), Souse!

aaaahh!
you mean pork swad!
my dad used to make it and it was lovely!

love
donna

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: Restrictive diet questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT))

> 1. Why can't they tolerate anything but chicken without diarrhea?

My first thought is to feed a tiny bit of other protein with a boney
meal, chicken backs might be a good candidate for this process. Having
the extra bone should help them to keep their stools solid. If that
works you can slowly increase the size of other protein so their system
gets used to digesting it. I would imagine that this same tactic would
work to introduce other organs as well. I don't usually suggest
probiotics, but maybe you could get some good strong human stuff for
them and see if that helps them too.

Bill is right about the pork, there is no reason to avoid commercial
pork because of trichnosis fears.

> 2. Are they okay just eating a diet of chicken getting perhaps 2-3
> chicken livers a week.

It sounds like they do ok with rabbit and some lamb, so you do have
some variety in there. Just be patient with the other proteins and
work your way into more variety.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:22 am ((PDT))

If you mean you fed him half a chicken I think you just gave too much
food. Reduce the amount of food he gets in a meal and he'll be fine.
Once the loose stools stop you won't have to worry about trimming his
derriere.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cwnsc" <cwells5@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all, I began raw feeding w/my 3 yr old male golden retriever
> this Sunday. I started him with a split chicken breast and he only
> ate the leg. I reserved the remaining portion for the next night
> and he ate that along with the an entire split piece Monday. I was
> thinking Yahoo - here, we go!! However, Monday afternoon,
> Tuesday, and again this morning, he had diahreeah

Messages in this topic (5)
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5.1. Re: New Here
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

Actually, for a dog that gulps thier food the best thing to do is feed
really big food, not smaller. If the dog can't fit it down it's throat
without chewing it they can't choke, right?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marti" <pioneertown@...> wrote:

> I have heard that the flat faced breeds are notorious for gulping
> their food and that feeding raw could lead to choking. Anyone care to
> comment or have any experience with that sort of thing? If it is
> true, then, would it be ok to just give them smaller pieces?

Messages in this topic (30)
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6a. Kitten
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

My dog adopted a kitten last night. I am not exactly a cat person but I guess I' ll become one! Can I feed the kitten mini versions of what I feed my dog? Dog gets a basic variety of whatever I can get! Do kittens have any special nutrtion requirements? I was wondering about taurine? Thanks Felicia

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6b. Re: Kitten
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

No real special considerations for cats as opposed to dogs other than
the fact that lots of cats are extremely picky. Taurine is present in
any muscle that gets used a lot, so its unlikely you'll end up with a
deficiency in that area. Heart has lots of taurine and my cats haven't
met a heart they didn't like. If your kitten is amenable to the idea
you can get whole prey items like frozen mice, chicks, etc. over the
internet. With whole prey you don't have to worry at all about getting
it right, because everything you need is in there. While it is usually
a lot more expensive than my regular dog foodstuffs, I think of it as
price per day instead of price per pound.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:

Can I feed the kitten mini versions of what I feed my dog? Dog gets a
basic variety of whatever I can get! Do kittens have any special
nutrtion requirements? I was wondering about taurine?

Messages in this topic (13)
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7a. Re: Fish oil capsules Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:01 am ((PDT))

"What kind of fish oil capsules? I read that cod liver oil is not a good oil
to feed the dogs... is there a different kind?"

Cod liver oil isn't bad; it's that you can overdose on the Vitamin A & D in
cod liver oil capsules - it's better to give natural vit A & D in raw liver;
I gave cod liver oil capsules once a week when I ran out of liver.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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7b. Fish oil capsules Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

"Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
> Cod liver oil isn't bad; it's that you can overdose on the Vitamin A
& D in
> cod liver oil capsules - it's better to give natural vit A & D in raw
liver;
> I gave cod liver oil capsules once a week when I ran out of liver.
*****
While I don't think a temporary lack of liver warrants dragging out the
CLO, I agree that CLO isn't bad--if it's used for the right reason.

Feeding CLO for the Omega 3 fatty acids is like going to Chicago for
some file gumbo.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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8a. Re: Illness
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

"ivanthegreat1990" <lovemysd@...> wrote:
>
> My dog got hurt and broken leg, now pinned. Is it a good idea to
> still do raw because he's having problems with it and imune
> system?
*****
There is never a good reason to feed sick food to a sick dog. Yes,
feed raw food and rejoice that you have such powerful medicine to offer.

Perhaps you are confusing "auto-immune disease" with "immune system".
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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9.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:11 am ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> Although I **highly** recommend diluting the white vinegar. Have you
ever
> stuck your head in a crate to wipe out the vinegar you just spritzed
in
> there? <grin> If it hurts me to smell it, I can only imagine what
it does
> to a dog's more sensitive sniffer!
*****
What would you rather? If not H2O2, what? Not bleach I don't think.

For rigorous cleaning up I use a vodka/water spritz (vodka is cheaper
than Everclear) because for me the smell of vinegar is inextricably
related to food. Prolly good old soap and water would clean a crate's
insides just fine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (200)
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9.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

I don't even clean my crates, but once every couple of months. But when I
do have to clean up the infrequent smelly leftovers (that's what the other
dogs are for, eh?) I use diluted white vinegar 'cause otherwise the
inhalation is painful to my nose. For those every couple of months
cleaning....it's a scrubber and soap and water.

But bleach? No way, no how.

On 10/18/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
What would you rather? If not H2O2, what? Not bleach I don't think.

For rigorous cleaning up I use a vodka/water spritz (vodka is cheaper
than Everclear) because for me the smell of vinegar is inextricably
related to food. Prolly good old soap and water would clean a crate's
insides just fine.
Chris O

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (200)
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9.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> I don't even clean my crates, but once every couple of months.
*****
I, too, have little time allocated to cleaning crates.

But when I
> do have to clean up the infrequent smelly leftovers (that's what the
other
> dogs are for, eh?) I use diluted white vinegar
*****
I didn't mean straight vinegar! Egad, I can't breathe just thinking
about inhaling straight vinegar fumes. I meant in a water spritz.
Instead of the bleach. We are most definitely on the same page.
Chris O

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10.1. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:13 am ((PDT))

Actually, it's quite nutritious stuff. According to analysis at
greentripe.com....

Green Tripe -
Protein10%
Fat5.0%
Fiber4.0%
Moisture78%
Calcium0.7%
Phosphorous0.7%
Magnesium0.
Potassium0.
B-Complex0.6
Trace Minerals1.
Essential Amino Acids
Taurine
Omega 3 & 6
Vitamin A, C, D, E

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "carnesbill" <carnesw@bellsouth.net>

Personally, I think even green tripe is a highly over rated food. I
don't see much nutrition in it. It's basically a sack.

Messages in this topic (220)
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10.2. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, it's quite nutritious stuff. According to analysis at
> greentripe.com

Greentripe.com sells the stuff. Of course they are going to make
them look good just as kibble companies make kibble look good to the
untrained eye.

You think green tripe is nutritious, look at how nutritious chicken
backs are:
Chicken Backs contain: protein, fat, calcium, iron, magnesium,
phophorus, Potassium, sodium, Zink, copper, manganese, selenium,
Vitamin C, Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, Pantothentic Acid, Vitamin B-
6, Foliate, Vitamin B-12, Vitamin A, Vitamin E, Vitamin K, lipids,
amino acids.

That information is per the USDA web site. They don't even sell
backs but they look pretty nutirious. I know you don't think
chicken backs are nutritious but it looks like they are at least as
nutritious as green tripe which is a sack with some partially
digested grass clinging to it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (220)
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10.3. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:20 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 18, 2007, at 11:31 AM, carnesbill wrote:

>
> That information is per the USDA web site. They don't even sell
> backs but they look pretty nutirious. I know you don't think
> chicken backs are nutritious but it looks like they are at least as
> nutritious as green tripe which is a sack with some partially
> digested grass clinging to it.
>

Firstly, the analysis at greentripe.com is an independent lab
evaluation, not something they concocted, but one they sought out to
quell the false info being presented by vets and others with an axe
to grind.

Secondly, you are absolutely right! Both items are equally nutritious
and important in that, and only in that, they are parts of the whole
animal. Neither are absolutely necessary, and you'd have to be crazy
to feed only one, or only the other, maybe a little less crazy to not
try at all to feed as much of as many animals as possible, within
practical constraints.

You'd do best to answer green tripe questions with a nod toward
variety, rather than an invidious comparison to another extremely
limited nutritional example.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (220)
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10.4. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Greentripe.com sells the stuff. Of course they are going to make
> them look good just as kibble companies make kibble look good to
the
> untrained eye.
*****
Bill, you got your hat on backwards today for sure.

>> I know you don't think
> chicken backs are nutritious but it looks like they are at least as
> nutritious as green tripe which is a sack with some partially
> digested grass clinging to it.
*****
You seem to miss the very point you are making: that green tripe
is "at least as nutritious" as chicken backs. Which makes it no less
valuable than chicken backs in a varied raw diet. To deny the
usefulness of one's nutritional profile is to deny the value of the
other. A hunk of bone with some meat and fat clinging to it is
clearly no better--or worse--than a sack with some partially digested
green stuff clinging to it.

They both have their place in a raw diet.
Neither of them are star-quality headliners.
Or both are.

Chris O

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10.5. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Hopefully we aren't going to start comparing a raw food option to kibble!!!

According to the USDA web site, tripe (don't supposing it's green)
has most of these nutrients as well! Glad I feed both green tripe and
chicken...

Katherine and the raw-fed/non-vax JRTs & BC
Nunn, CO

----- Original Message ----
From: carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 12:31:00 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Tripe

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:

Greentripe.com sells the stuff. Of course they are going to make

them look good just as kibble companies make kibble look good to the

untrained eye.

You think green tripe is nutritious, look at how nutritious chicken

backs are:

Chicken Backs contain: protein, fat, calcium, iron, magnesium,

phophorus, Potassium, sodium, Zink, copper, manganese, selenium,

Vitamin C, Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, Pantothentic Acid, Vitamin B-

6, Foliate, Vitamin B-12, Vitamin A, Vitamin E, Vitamin K, lipids,

amino acids.

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Messages in this topic (220)
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10.6. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> You seem to miss the very point you are making: that green tripe
> is "at least as nutritious" as chicken backs. Which makes it
> no less
> valuable than chicken backs in a varied raw diet.

Exactly the point I was trying not so successfully to make. Many
speak of green tripe like its some kind of super food and speak with
distain about chicken backs. The point I was making is that they
are both about equal in nutritional value or lack of nutritional
value.

Green tripe is not a super food nor is it particularly nutritious
nor nearly valuable enough to go to the touble, expense, and discust
one has to go through to buy it and feed it. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (220)
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10.7. Re: Tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> Green tripe is not a super food nor is it particularly nutritious
> nor nearly valuable enough to go to the touble, expense, and discust
> one has to go through to buy it and feed it. :)
*****
And equally, chicken backs are not super food and are not particularly
nutritious. They are worth no more effort--and no less effort--than
green tripe requires.

Those who have access to green tripe should consider it a useful part
of the diet, no less useful than chicken backs. If one has the
interest, wherewithal and tolerance (I do not find it disgusting),
green tripe is not without its purpose.
Chris O

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11a. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
Posted by: "scalla70" tanbrin@rogers.com scalla70
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

Denise,

Quote "Liver is not
> optional, it is the one organ your dog has to have. "

How often does a dog need to have liver? per week, per month?

Thanks.

Judy
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Strother"
<denisestrother@...> wrote:
>
> Vickie,
> The only way you are going to fix this problem is by being the
> deciscion maker. As long as your dog decides what she will and won't
> eat this is going to be a problem. I did not let my children decide
> what they would and would not eat, I don't let my dogs decide what to
> eat. I take into consideration my dogs likes and dislikes, but you
> will find that once your dogs learn to eat what is given to them or do
> without, they are usually not as picky as before. Liver is not
> optional, it is the one organ your dog has to have. There are many
> tricks people use to get their dogs to eat it. Check the archives. I
> foster dogs of all ages, shapes and sizes. I seldom have problems with
> switching dogs to raw and the few I have are easily taken care of by a
> little tough love. Your dog was not starving, she does have you
> trained though. Quit being a pushover and be the pack leader instead
> of letting her make adult decisions. Denise
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Vickie" dals4creekside@ wrote:
> She went for almost 4 days like that, refusing to eat it. I finally
> saw her loosing some weight and couldn't stand her not eating when she
> clearly was starving so I cut the meat into chunks and she happily
ate.
> The other problem I have is organs............. she will not eat raw
> organs. I have to semi cook with seasoning on it to get her to eat it.
> Any suggestions you have will be greatly appreciated. I believe the
> younger you start them out on total raw the better off you are.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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11b. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

It should be at most 5% of the dog's diet. If you choose to feed once
a week, it should be a chunk that weighs about 5% of the weekly food
amount. Likewise, once a month you could feed a chunk that is about 5%
a month's worth of food. There's no required time frame, it just
should be fed at some point.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "scalla70" <tanbrin@...> wrote:

> How often does a dog need to have liver? per week, per month?

Messages in this topic (7)
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11c. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "scalla70" <tanbrin@...> wrote:
>

> How often does a dog need to have liver? per week, per month?
>
Don't let anyone fool you. There is only one absolutely correct
anser to that. The answer is "some". There is no set amount. My
dogs get "a glob or two" every "week or so, sometimes twice a week.
Sometimes a big glob, sometimes a little glob."

Don't try to get too precise with the diet. You will drive yourself
crazy. :) Feed meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.
Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Thats all
the "precise" you need. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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11d. Re: problem, ugggggggggg
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

If you look at the 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs with 5% of that
being liver, then 5% of their total diet should be liver. I do not
weigh my dogs meals, or plan them very far ahead. I just feed
liver ... sometimes. Sometimes once a week, sometimes every couple
of weeks. Or any variation that includes at least once a month. I
might have skipped a month somewhere though. Some people are more
comfortable with smaller amounts more frequently. Some dogs don't do
well (gastronomically speaking) with whole meal amounts of liver,
some do. You just have to find what works for you and your dog(s),
but it should average out to about 5% of the dogs overall diet over
time. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "scalla70" <tanbrin@...> wrote:

> How often does a dog need to have liver? per week, per month?

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12. Re: Anal glands prone to infection-treating the gland..Patricia.
Posted by: "Ladynyny@aol.com" Ladynyny@aol.com cathalmightywarrior
Date: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT))

Patricia,
Your Very Welcome. Not many people know that this can be done, I for sure
did not. But it does make sense. Treat the part directly that needs the
treating.

I would imagine there has to be some discomfort for the antibiotic to go
directly into the anal gland itself but I will tell you this is Well Worth It.
The dog didn't show any discomfort afterwards, nope not at all. I actually
think the dog was relieved not to have the pain anymore. My dog hasn't had
an episode in ONE YEAR.

I tried giving her more bone in her Raw feeding thinking this would help
her express on her own but it did not. Like I said this had been going on
for years and my dog has been fed a RAW diet since she was 4 weeks old from
her Breeder. Some dogs are prone to this.

Good Luck. Terry

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