[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12170

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Inoculations
From: Christine
1b. Inoculations
From: Loretta Rinaldo
1c. Re: Inoculations
From: Liz

2a. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: jennifer_hell
2b. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: Laura Atkinson
2c. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Switching a 12-year-old dog to raw food
From: aliciamyan

4.1. Newbie
From: mmc2315
4.2. Re: Newbie
From: Denise Strother
4.3. Re: Newbie
From: Carol Dunster
4.4. Re: Newbie
From: mmc2315
4.5. Re: Newbie
From: mmc2315

5a. Re: Very odd poo
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Very odd poo
From: Marilyn Neil
5c. Re: Very odd poo
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: Dry aged beef scraps - safe?
From: Andrea

7a. Raw Feeding and LGD
From: Kathryn
7b. Re: Raw Feeding and LGD
From: Andrea
7c. Re: Raw Feeding and LGD
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: Beef Question
From: Laura Atkinson
8b. Re: Beef Question
From: drwindmill@gmail.com

9a. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Bad Doggy farts - what can you do?? (sorry to be graphic)
From: Ivette Casiano

11a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: costrowski75

12a. ADMIN/Re: Inoculations
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Inoculations
Posted by: "Christine" chrizk20@yahoo.com chrizk20
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:28 am ((PDT))

I don't give my dogs shots at all. none. When i started feeding Raw, i
started researching about other ways of getting my dogs/cats healthier!
go to www.truthaboutvaccines.org

My dogs havent seen a vet over a year now, been raw feed, and see a
classical homeopath.

Hope that helps,
Christine K.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marilyn" <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I was wondering how many members have stopped inoculating their
dogs.
>
> We are all so careful about what we put into our beloved canines
> tummies, what about the shots?
>
> Marilyn
> www.lestorm.co.uk
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Inoculations
Posted by: "Loretta Rinaldo" doxylady4@yahoo.com doxylady4
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:17 am ((PDT))

I do titers at my yearly physicals and so far my dachshunds(all 5 of them) have been immuned to what they would be vaccinated against. I told my vet recently about doing raw feeding and she didn't give me any grief. I love my vet!!! And I love my pups!! Loretta
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Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Inoculations
Posted by: "Liz" tvliz24@izoom.net liztv2456
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

Hi Marilyn,

Yes, I am rethinking vaccinating any of my animals.

Check out the yahoo group: TruthAboutVaccines

I have learned a lot from them.

Liz
MN

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marilyn" <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I was wondering how many members have stopped inoculating their
dogs.
>
> We are all so careful about what we put into our beloved canines
> tummies, what about the shots?
>
> Marilyn
> www.lestorm.co.uk
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:29 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Well it certainly isnt cooked!!
>
> It certainly is appropriate.
>

So the fact that it's uncooked makes a food an appropriate part of the
diet? I think that's not enough explanation. How does a wolf/ other
wild living canide pup obtain oats, goat's milk, yogurt, honey and
vegetables?

A confused Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:52 am ((PDT))

Here's what we do for puppies:

Ground chicken or poultry, lotsa meat, some bone mixed with warm goats milk
(why goat? I dunno, because it makes me feel like I'm doing something extra
special by hunting down goats milk I guess) and a couple smidges of liver.
Over about a week, we decrease the milk until they're just getting ground
stuff. Then they get whole pieces to "play" with. I keep up the ground
meat w/ some bone every 2-3 meals and they get hunks o' meaty bone the other
meals...usually ground in the am because it's easier for me. As soon as
they're eating the whole meat and I see 'em making significant progress on
the bone (eating bone themselves) no more grinding. By 8 weeks, they're
eating everything the big dogs eat, including organs, just in puppy sized
meals.

Oats? Nope...no grains. Honey? Nope, they really don't need sugar.
Veggies? Nope. No need for that. No reason at all to start em on stuff
that they don't need. That is taking up valuable stomach space that could
be filled with species appropriate foods.

If someone can show me something that convinces me that I need to be feeding
the puppies oatmeal cookie dough, have at it.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:19 am ((PDT))

Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Well it certainly isnt cooked!!
>
> It certainly is appropriate.
*****
Marilyn, in order for plant matter to be nutritionally available to a
wolf, the plant matter must be processed. Cooking is one way to
process it, fermenting is another, freezing is another, blendering is
another. If none of these mechanical processes happen, the plant
matter is moved through the wolf's system with little if any
contribution to the wolf's dietary needs. It is, at best, additional
fiber.

This list encourages and supports a species appropriate menu--species
appropriate to wolves, not to herbivores or omnivores. There is no
place in a wolf's diet for dietary grain. There is no place in
Rawfeeding for dietary grain.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: Switching a 12-year-old dog to raw food
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

Yoko,

I'm new at this as well - today we completed week 3! I switched our
3yo GSD Moose and our 12yo arthritic, lethargic, Yellow Lab Flicka.
After reading post after post, I purchsed whole bone-in chicken
breasts (I found them on sale) and whole chickens (sale too).
Because everything has gone so smoothly, I've started adding beef (we
raise beef cattle, so its what I have) and thanks to my craigslist
post, I scored 90lbs of elk, and we'll be adding elk to our diet soon
too! Our lab should be about 50lbs (and was a bit overweight), so I
feed 2% of the 50lbs - roughly a pound a day. That is about the
whole bone-in breast, which I split into two feedings. The shepherd
is quite under weight and over active, so he's getting nearly 4lbs a
day. Both dogs adjusted great and we haven't looked back once. Her
weight issue came when the GSD didn't finish his kibble and she
gladly finished it for him. Now, he's licking the bowl clean and she
gets only her ration. The results? She has a waist and no longer
looks like a torpedo. She is so much more lively than she was
before. Both my husband (the skeptic) and I can see she's moving
better and spends less time laying around. There is a new light in
her eyes. Because we started this so late in her life, it may not
add on the years we wish it could, but I am certain it will make the
years she has left higher quality.

My advice, don't wait - start today!

Alicia

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yoko <ys57701@...> wrote:
>
> I read a few web articles regarding raw feeding, but I have not
been able to find any that addresses issues on feeding old
dogs.....I'm planning to switch her diet cold turkey to raw, but I
would like to hear your advice before carrying it out. Thank you.
>
> Yoko (a new member)

Messages in this topic (3)
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4.1. Newbie
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

Our family just adopted a little terrier mix from the shelter, and we are in the process of
researching Raw Feeding.

I'm glad to be here. I'll sit back and read the Files section and start learning.

I've already read "Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats" by Kymythy Schultze. It seems a tad
overwhelming now, but I think we'll figure it out eventually and make the switch. :)

Michelle

Messages in this topic (176)
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4.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Michelle,
Just a note: It is my understanding that Kymythy Schultze does not
feed the same way now that she fed when she wrote the book. I'm sure
that others who are more up to date on this will tell us if I am
wrong. Don't be overwhelmed. Rawfeeding is actually very simple. You
feed your dog mostly meat, a little edible bone and a little organ
with half of that being some kind of liver. If your dog gets too fat -
feed less, if your dog gets too thin - feed more. Stick with one meat
until you and dog are doing well, then start adding a new meat. Stick
with the great advice and information you will receive on this list
and you can't go wrong. Read all of the suggested reading sites.
Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:
> I've already read "Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats" by Kymythy
Schultze. It seems a tad overwhelming now, but I think we'll figure
it out eventually and make the switch. :)
> Michelle

Messages in this topic (176)
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4.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:06:23 -0000, you wrote:

>It seems a tad
>overwhelming now, but I think we'll figure it out eventually and make the switch. :)

Fortunately it seems a lot easier once you talk with the people here
for a bit and just do it! I switched recently because it just made
sense to feed more closely to what a "wild" dog would eat - meat and
bones and some organs. I think you'll find it's very simple and very
flexible, so I'd encourage you to go ahead and get started. Read for a
few days, look up in the archives and just go for it!

I started with what I had on hand - an over supply of lean hamburger
from the 1/4 beef we bought a few months ago - and then picked up some
chicken parts (Toy dogs) and off we went! They love it.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (176)
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4.4. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

Carol Dunster wrote:

> Fortunately it seems a lot easier once you talk with the people here
> for a bit and just do it! I switched recently because it just made
> sense to feed more closely to what a "wild" dog would eat - meat and
> bones and some organs. I think you'll find it's very simple and very
> flexible, so I'd encourage you to go ahead and get started. Read for a
> few days, look up in the archives and just go for it!
>

Good to know! I'm trying to imagine some logistics. Where to feed the dog in our house,
whether to use a rug or mat or some other idea, what to use for clean up, what about wiping
the dogs paws or beard....tips?

Michelle

Messages in this topic (176)
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4.5. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

Denise Strother wrote:

> Just a note: It is my understanding that Kymythy Schultze does not
> feed the same way now that she fed when she wrote the book.

I wonder if she dropped the supplements and vegetable matter.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (176)
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5a. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:17 am ((PDT))

Yes, mucousy poo isn't unusual for a newly switched dog. It's likely
he was eating more food than his body was ready to digest at once.
That problem remedies itself pretty quickly. Yellow poo is pretty much
the standard color for a chicken meal, so it sounds like your boy is
doing fine.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maurwyck" <Maurwyck@...> wrote:

> My pup has been on raw for about a week now and he has had a very wide
> array of feces. I'm worried now though because it's very mucusy (if
> that's a word). It has also varied in colors from a green mucus to now
> a yellow color.

Messages in this topic (8)
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5b. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

I may be in trouble for suggesting this. Try giving natural live yogurt first thing in the morning, around a small pot sized. this will help replace the friendly bugs back into the gut. As soon as all the good bugs are built up the sloppy poos will stop.

Marilyn

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, mucousy poo isn't unusual for a newly switched dog. It's likely
he was eating more food than his body was ready to digest at once.
That problem remedies itself pretty quickly. Yellow poo is pretty much
the standard color for a chicken meal, so it sounds like your boy is
doing fine.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maurwyck" <Maurwyck@...> wrote:

> My pup has been on raw for about a week now and he has had a very wide
> array of feces. I'm worried now though because it's very mucusy (if
> that's a word). It has also varied in colors from a green mucus to now
> a yellow color.

Ems xxx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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5c. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> I may be in trouble for suggesting this. Try giving natural live
yogurt first thing in the morning, around a small pot sized. this
will help replace the friendly bugs back into the gut. As soon as all
the good bugs are built up the sloppy poos will stop.
>
> Marilyn

No, not in trouble, but why would you give yogurt? The poo will be
back to normal when the digestive system has gotten used to the new
raw food.It's not a problem that needs to be solved.The dog is not sick.
Yogurt is not part of the natural diet of a canidae.

Jennifer with Mandy
(who still waits for an explanation on why veggies, oats, honey, goat
yogurt, milk are part of a species appropriate canidae diet if uncooked)

Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Re: Dry aged beef scraps - safe?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

I'm sure it is "safe" considering my dogs dug up and ate dog knows what
yesterday. All I know is that I'm sure I didn't feed it recently!
It sounds like they don't add any salt or seasoning to the meat,
right? I probably wouldn't feed the scraps as a staple, but I
definitely would feed them.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Margo Farnsworth" <mfarnsworth@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a friend who raises natural beef and then dry ages it. This
> process creates a lot of waste that they cut away on the outside of
> the carcass. Does anyone know if this would be safe to feed to dogs?

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Raw Feeding and LGD
Posted by: "Kathryn" paintedgoatfarm@yahoo.com paintedgoatfarm
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the list. I raise goats, sheep and poultry and will be
finally getting livestock guardian dog in a little over a week. My
question is has anyone here had one before and how do you handle
feeding? I ask because lgd's are supposed to be fed with their charges
and I'm a little sensitive about giving a dog meat in front of the
vegetarian sheep and goats. Also some have recommended leaving the
hide on do you think this is a good idea for an lgd? I don't want her
start associating her herd with her food.

Thanks,
Kathryn from N. IL

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Raw Feeding and LGD
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

IMO, as long as you don't butcher the livestock right in front of the
dog and feed her still warm whole food, it is unlikely she will make
the connection. Many people on the list have dogs who live alongside
the same animals they eventually eat without a problem. Controling a
high prey drive dog is a training issue regardless of what the dog eats.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn" <paintedgoatfarm@...>
wrote:

> Also some have recommended leaving the hide on do you think this is a
> good idea for an lgd? I don't want her start associating her herd
with her food.

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Raw Feeding and LGD
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn" <paintedgoatfarm@...>
wrote:
>
> I ask because lgd's are supposed to be fed with their charges
> and I'm a little sensitive about giving a dog meat in front of the
> vegetarian sheep and goats.

That would be the same as being sensitive to feeding meat to the
sheep and goats in front of the dog. The dog is a carnivore. It's
improper to feed him anything other than meat, bones, and organs.

> Also some have recommended leaving the
> hide on do you think this is a good idea for an lgd?

No more or less good for an lgd as for any other dog. Some people
feed hide, most don't.

> I don't want her
> start associating her herd with her food.

She won't.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Beef Question
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT))

Despite what anyone tells you, your dogs won't like having an all beef
diet. You should send as much of it as possible to me and go buy some
chicken <grin>.

7-10 week old puppies get two meals and a heavy snack, and somewhere around
3 months go to 2 meals. Usually by 7 months or so I've got 'em down to one
meal a day...but Robin, bless her heart, is still getting two meals a day at
8 months (because I'm weak and she's willful). For the adults, one meal a
day unless you do the "eat like a pig" and here's a snack for the next few
days. Do what works for you and your dogs.

On 10/16/07, windmilldairy <drwindmill@gmail.com> wrote:
As many of you already I own a large dairy farm and unfortunately we often
have extra beef
around. How much of a dogs diet can consist of beef(instead of chicken or
turkey)? I think I
am going to feed a raw diet when I take the plunge. I would love if someone
could give me a
sample meal or meals for a typical day. Also, how many meals for growing
puppy and how
many meals for an adult. Thanks

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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8b. Re: Beef Question
Posted by: "drwindmill@gmail.com" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

What beef bones should be fed and much bone?

-----Original Message-----
From: "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@gmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 10/17/2007 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Beef Question

Despite what anyone tells you, your dogs won't like having an all beef
diet. You should send as much of it as possible to me and go buy some
chicken <grin>.

7-10 week old puppies get two meals and a heavy snack, and somewhere around
3 months go to 2 meals. Usually by 7 months or so I've got 'em down to one
meal a day...but Robin, bless her heart, is still getting two meals a day at
8 months (because I'm weak and she's willful). For the adults, one meal a
day unless you do the "eat like a pig" and here's a snack for the next few

[truncated by sender]

Messages in this topic (13)
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9a. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

"reachpanda" <reachpanda@...> wrote:
what about the
> prepackaged raw patties? I want to feed her 100% on my own, but
what
> about keeping some patties on hand for emergencies? Are they worth
it?
> Or should I only feed store bought meat at any cost?
*****
What sort of emergency do you mean?

Raw prefab patties must be frozen. Any emergency that can undo frozen
whole foods will also undo prefab patties. And whole foods will stay
frozen longer than patties, unless the patties are bulk-packed.

Any food shortage emergency that requires thawing will require prefab
patties to be thawed as well. An "oh I forget to thaw something for
dinner" situation is not an emergency. At the very least you can
skip the meal entirely, since there are few dogs that cannot quite
safely miss a meal. And should you have one of them, defrosting
plain, unadulterated ground meat is no more difficult than defrosting
a prefab puck.

If things are really and truly dire, canned or dehydrated food (and,
alas, dry or wet dogfood) are what will hold up. Raw prefab has the
same physical limitations as raw whole food and if you're referring
to Katrina-like emergencies neither will have a lengthy shelf life.

What do you mean by store bought meat "at any cost?" Taken
literally, prefab patties will invariably be more expensive than
whole "human grade" foods and offer less value. So what other costs
are you referring to?

Please advise!
Chris o

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Bad Doggy farts - what can you do?? (sorry to be graphic)
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

Have any of you whose dogs have "the stinkies" ever try doggie enzymes. It worked wonders for mine and helped him digest so well. After going through 2 bottles he now has the enzymes he needs to digest just about everything and "the stinkies" are gone (except when he gets the occassionaly tidbit cheese treat, I've identified the culprit, not the raw food).
Good luck and invest in some nose clips for a while.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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Messages in this topic (11)
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11a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:>
> I wonder how many wild dogs chocked on turkey necks.
*****
Probably none.
A more realistic question is how many wild turkeys do wild dogs
catch?

Probably none. Wild turkeys are amazingly quiet, clever and
resourceful.

And I'll betcha no wild dog ain't never ever once chased and caught a
turkey neck.

Eating the neck (whether it's a turkey neck or a chicken neck or a
duck neck or or deer neck or a buffalo) is not the same as eating a
critter of which part is neck. There's not much to say about your
comment except that the comparison is at best tentative.

Just shows that there are risks in raw feeding. Our dogs love
the necks, sadly for them they are now off the menu.
*****
Of course there are risks in raw feeding. What we try to do as
responsible raw feeders is minimize risk without minimizing
reward. 'Tis sometimes a fine line to walk.

If you have been successfully feeding turkey necks to your dogs and
you are comfortable with their performance and the reward is worth
the risk, for heaven's sake continue to feed turkey necks!
Experience is as easily as valuable as theory (although the naysayers
in the white lab coats would have us believe empirical data is
without value); if your experience says go, go.

My recommendation is that people WITHOUT experience not rush to
turkey necks simply because people WITH experience feed them. If one
doesn't know what one's dog is capable of, one should--IMO--proceed
conservatively. There is plenty of time to expand the menu.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (20)
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12a. ADMIN/Re: Inoculations
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT))

This topic, whether called innocuations or vaccinations or vaccines or
shots or jabs is NOT appropriate for this list. Please take all
discussion to RawChat, DogHealth or one of the homeopathic lists that
are often recommended.

Further posts will be deleted.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (5)
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