[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12188

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Hi - New Here!
From: Deborah
1b. Re: Hi - New Here!
From: katkellm
1c. Re: Hi - New Here!
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: merril Woolf

3a. Re: older dog having difficulty digesting bone
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: RMB
From: carnesbill

5a. still hungry
From: goldenbearnwolf
5b. Re: still hungry
From: Andrea

6a. Chicken Legs
From: hungrymoses
6b. Re: Chicken Legs
From: Andrea

7a. New to raw - made mistakes - need help
From: cwnsc
7b. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
From: Andrea
7c. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
From: katkellm
7d. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
From: Tina Berry
7e. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
From: Doguefan@aol.com
7f. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
From: cwnsc

8a. New Lab pup, self-regulating????
From: Sonja
8b. Re: New Lab pup, self-regulating????
From: Andrea
8c. Re: New Lab pup, self-regulating????
From: Sonja
8d. Re: New Lab pup, self-regulating????
From: Andrea

9a. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: Tina Berry

10. Kind of OT: Picture of dogs in deer carcass
From: Joanne Thompson

11a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: blue eyed

12. OT: list for general dog questions with a holistic slant
From: mmc2315

13. new puppy need help
From: akhwbj1

Messages
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1a. Hi - New Here!
Posted by: "Deborah" debbs_dave@yahoo.co.uk debbs_dave
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:24 am ((PDT))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

I have a five month old Doberman male pup - I've been feeding him Eagle
Pack Large Breed Puppy Food, plus he gets bones and rawhide chews. He
is very healthy, but his breath is not just smelly, it's horrible.

If he licks me (he likes to lick ears.. :) I can literally smell it on
myself, I was putting it down to puppy teething but now I'm not so sure!

Thus the search for a cause, and I found rawfeeding.com, and from there
to here!

So.. I'll be listening and learning. One question - I have small
livestock - chickens and goats. If I start feeding raw chicken, will I
creat a chicken killer?

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Hi - New Here!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:56 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Deborah" <debbs_dave@...> wrote:
I have small
> livestock - chickens and goats. If I start feeding raw chicken, will I
> creat a chicken killer?

Hi Deborah,
Welcome. Its nice to meet you and your Doberman pup.
Check this out

http://rawfed.com/colbythekiller.html. As you read the
archives and posts, please feel free to ask questions. That's why we
are here.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Hi - New Here!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Deborah" <debbs_dave@...> wrote:
>
> He
> is very healthy, but his breath is not just smelly, it's horrible.

His bad breath is telling you that he is NOT "very healthy". He
propably had periodontal disease. Changing to a raw diet will most
likely eliminate this in less than a month with no intervention by a
vet.

> So.. I'll be listening and learning. One question - I have small
> livestock - chickens and goats. If I start feeding raw chicken,
> will I creat a chicken killer?

Prey drive determines whether you will have a chicken killer or
not. Diet does not affect prey drive.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...> wrote:
>
> I butchered a cow, and didn't save any bone. Most of the bone seemed too hard for my
dogs.
> Can I get by feeding just the beef and no bone to my bulldog and rat terrier?
>
> Thanks
>
> Pat

We butcher cows for the dogs also, but I still feed chicken backs and other meats with edible
bone to make up for the lack of bone in all the beef we feed.

If you feed bone from other sources, you should be OK.

Merril

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: older dog having difficulty digesting bone
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:52 am ((PDT))

"Kim" <two-pups@...> wrote:
> I know she needs bone for the calcium, etc, but I don't want the
poor
> girl throwing up everytime she has bone.
>
> Is this common in older dogs? Does anyone have any suggestions?
For
> exaple, should I stop giving her bone and add supplements?
*****
My seniors had problems eating the bones, but once in there was no
particular bone-specific digestion issues. And IMO nine and a half
is not old. What other health issues are present?

My first thought is perhaps you are feeding too much bone. A pork
neck is rarely a meaty-enough meal, so while the meal size may "suit"
her needs, most of it is bone. You may also be feeding chicken parts
that are too bony. My first recco would be to cut back on edible
bone.

I also recommend you review any changes in meal times, suppliers--
lifestyle changes that might affect her eating habits. Stress is a
great one for screwing up patterns.

Check her teeth/mouth to make sure something's not awry in there.
She might be swallowing large what she once crunched down. If the
bones are going down bigger than before she's more likely to be
digestively done with them before they're small enough to move on.

You could also try a digestive enzyme but since the issue is neither
animal nor vegetable but is mineral, I'm not sure what digestive
enzyme would be appropriate. But even if a DE is successful, it does
not identify what's behind the change.

IMO if there's nothing changed in her life and there's nothing
damaged in her mouth and a reduction in edible bone/addition of meat
does not address the issue, you might want to consider a full blood
panel to make sure her chemistry is good. If suddenly a dog cannot
digest what it used to, something is going on.

Oh, one last thing. Throwing up bits of undigested bone is a very
healthy way to get rid of the irritation. It is when dem bones move
neither up nor down that problems can occur. I can understand why
the process worries you but truly--unless she's experiencing physical
or mental trauma, it's not nearly as harmful as not doing it.

Please let us know what you discover.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: RMB
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:57 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Christina!
> It used to be free to dl, but now they charge for it.
> Contact me by private email, and I'll share my copy with you.

Giselle,
Sending people copywrited files is called "Piracy" and is illegal. It
is stealing intellectual property. You can and will get jail time for
that plus pay a very large fine.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. still hungry
Posted by: "goldenbearnwolf" goldenbearnwolf@aol.com goldenbearnwolf
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

OK, maybe my dog is a pig. I have a 115 lb shepard mix who I have just
switched to raw food over the past few weeks. He LOVES It! Eats
everything I give him. I have been giving him the appropriate amount of
food for his weight, but he keeps asking for more. He wants to be fed 3-
4 times a day. Is it normal when switching that he would be extra
hungry? He's fine for several hours after I feed him & then comes
asking for more. Oh yea, he asks. He comes & bumps us with his long wet
schnozzle!
Other than that, it seems to be working great! His teeth are cleaner,
his breath is better, his allergies seem to have vanished.
Thanks to everyone for their wonderful information!
Lisa

Messages in this topic (12)
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5b. Re: still hungry
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

Geiger was the king of the "I'm starving" face for the first year of
his life! I had a really hard time not overfeeding him until I noticed
how fat he had become (of course, fat to me is still "normal" compared
to most ki**lefed dogs). The new pup, Tycho, was a stray so he was
pretty serious about eating as much as he could as often as he could.
After the first two months he really calmed down about food, though. I
think our pets are afraid at first that we'll change our minds and stop
feeding the wonderful food. Once they get that the good stuff comes
every day they seem to calm down a lot.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "goldenbearnwolf"
<goldenbearnwolf@...> wrote:

> He wants to be fed 3-4 times a day. Is it normal when switching
> that he would be extra hungry?

Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. Chicken Legs
Posted by: "hungrymoses" hungrymoses@yahoo.com hungrymoses
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:13 am ((PDT))

+++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++

Hi there,

I'm new to raw feeding and have been feeding my dog chicken legs. I
noticed a pretty sharp bone in one of his poops. Should I be
concerned??

Messages in this topic (10)
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6b. Re: Chicken Legs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT))

Newbie dogs often take a little while to completely digest the bone
they eat. Give it time and the bone bits will probably disappear from
the poo. You could also feed through a whole chicken so the dog gets
some more meaty sections in addition to just legs.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hungrymoses" <hungrymoses@...>
wrote:

> I'm new to raw feeding and have been feeding my dog chicken legs. I
> noticed a pretty sharp bone in one of his poops. Should I be
> concerned??
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. New to raw - made mistakes - need help
Posted by: "cwnsc" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

Hi!

My 3 yr old GR has been on raw 8 days. 1st day was chicken but
introduced variety of foods daily during the week and gave him liver
Wednesday. I realize my mistake and both us are paying the
consequences. I saw other posts of giving only chicken the 1st 2
weeks and not introduce organs for 2 months. Any idea how long it will
take his tummy to settle down. The diarrhea is bad. He has had only
chicken the last 4 days with no skin and fat removed.

Thanks
Cindy

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:07 am ((PDT))

You might want to fast him for a day to let things settle down.
Slippery elm bark can be given as well to soothe the digestive system.
Make sure you aren't feeding too much food as well. Let us know how it
goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cwnsc" <cwells5@...> wrote:

> My 3 yr old GR has been on raw 8 days. 1st day was chicken but
> introduced variety of foods daily during the week and gave him liver
> Wednesday. I realize my mistake and both us are paying the
> consequences.

Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cwnsc" <cwells5@...> wrote:
The diarrhea is bad. He has had only
> chicken the last 4 days with no skin and fat removed.
Hi Cindy,
After fasting for a day, you might want to begin feeding again with
smaller, more frequent meals. KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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7d. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

"The diarrhea is bad. He has had only chicken the last 4 days with no skin
and fat removed."

I've had good luck with adding a couple tablespoons of 100% pure raw pumpkin
(not the pie filling, but it's located next to the pie filling). Stops
diarrhea and/or constipation within a couple of days or so.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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7e. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

Cindy-? you might give him some canned pumpkin or some slippery elm bark to help the loose stool subside.? Then, yes, you need to stickto just one proteinfor a little while until he gets used to it.? When you start adding organs, especially liver, you have to start with the tiniest amounts...

Chels

-----Original Message-----
From: cwnsc <cwells5@charter.net>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:19 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] New to raw - made mistakes - need help

Hi!

My 3 yr old GR has been on raw 8 days. 1st day was chicken but
introduced variety of foods daily during the week and gave him liver
Wednesday. I realize my mistake and both us are paying the
consequences. I saw other posts of giving only chicken the 1st 2
weeks and not introduce organs for 2 months. Any idea how long it will
take his tummy to settle down. The diarrhea is bad. He has had only
chicken the last 4 days with no skin and fat removed.

Thanks
Cindy

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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7f. Re: New to raw - made mistakes - need help
Posted by: "cwnsc" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:35 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for the advice and I certainly will try it. He is 74#s
and I am feeding 1 split chicken qtr. once a day which I believe is
a small meal for his weight?

Cindy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Cindy-? you might give him some canned pumpkin or some slippery
elm bark to help the loose stool subside.? Then, yes, you need to
stickto just one proteinfor a little while until he gets used to
it.? When you start adding organs, especially liver, you have to
start with the tiniest amounts...
>
> Chels
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cwnsc <cwells5@...>
> To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:19 am
> Subject: [rawfeeding] New to raw - made mistakes - need help
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
> My 3 yr old GR has been on raw 8 days. 1st day was chicken but
> introduced variety of foods daily during the week and gave him
liver
> Wednesday. I realize my mistake and both us are paying the
> consequences. I saw other posts of giving only chicken the 1st 2
> weeks and not introduce organs for 2 months. Any idea how long it
will
> take his tummy to settle down. The diarrhea is bad. He has had
only
> chicken the last 4 days with no skin and fat removed.
>
> Thanks
> Cindy
>
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. New Lab pup, self-regulating????
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

We brought home a new (kibble fed) Lab puppy on Wednesday night. She's just over 15 weeks old, 30 pounds. She had plenty of weight on her when we picked her up, so when she picked at the raw food Thursday and Friday, we weren't too worried. Over the weekend she figured out that raw food IS food, and she loves it!

So here's my stupid question....I know I should feed her 3 times a day, but she doesn't finish her morning meal, refuses her mid-day meal, and won't finish her evening meal either. I'm feeding her roughly 2-1/4 lbs a day, but she's not eating it all. Are puppies pretty good with self-regulating? I'm used to labs devouring everything that doesn't move so this is quite a change to have a puppy that's clearly done eating with food still left in front of her....
I figure as long as her weight is good I shouldn't worry too much about whether or not she refuses the mid-day feeding. Any thoughts?

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: New Lab pup, self-regulating????
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:04 am ((PDT))

I encountered the same problem with my newf mix puppy. I offered him
food three times a day but he would pick at the morning meal, eat a lot
the second meal and then refuse dinner. At first he had loose stools
from the one big meal but within a few days his stools firmed up. I
would have liked him to eat three times a day, but he decided it just
wasn't his style. If your pup digests all the food well I would let
her eat as she wants. Keep an eye on her stool and make sure she is
digesting everything properly, though.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:

I know I should feed her 3 times a day, but she doesn't finish her
morning meal, refuses her mid-day meal, and won't finish her evening
meal either. I'm feeding her roughly 2-1/4 lbs a day, but she's not
eating it all. Are puppies pretty good with self-regulating?

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: New Lab pup, self-regulating????
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

I expected that raw probably wouldn't sit well with her at first and expected a bit of upset the first few days. We had a few bad cases of diarrhea up until this morning when it finally came out normal. We had started with cornish game hens and I upped the bone with a turkey neck. I was iffy about adding another protein so quickly, but it's what I had. That's when we finally got our first normal stool. I know diarherra with puppies is a big deal, but she was drinking enough and she only had 2 episodes per day. It was nothing like the 10+ trips a day that I take with our other lab when she eats something that doesn't agree with her!

Should I wait a week before adding a new protein or can I throw in chunks of variety here and there as long as it's being well tolerated?

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: New Lab pup, self-regulating????
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

Puppies tend to accept variety pretty quickly, but of course it is a
dog by dog thing. Both of my pups accepted variety pretty quickly with
minimal loose stools. New meats usually mean room clearing farts but
that's about it. Heart and tongue are ones I would definitely say go
slowly. I did make sure they only got one new thing per meal, and I
let a couple of days go by to make sure things were ok before I added
anything else.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:

> Should I wait a week before adding a new protein or can I throw in
chunks of variety here and there as long as it's being well tolerated?

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

"you can continue to feed the same but more of it. Include an appropriate
amount of dietary bone and organs and expect that at some point as your girl
has less room for a big bellyfull that she'll reject bones and look for more
meat, including organs."

Ditto. About 2 weeks before whelping, mine declined bones and wanted more
organs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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10. Kind of OT: Picture of dogs in deer carcass
Posted by: "Joanne Thompson" tho0123@earthlink.net black_diamond_kennels
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

Does anyone remember who it was that sent the picture of the little dogs
eating in the deer carcass? I want to send it to some friends.

Thanks,

Joanne Thompson
Black Diamond Kennels
Working Giant Schnauzers
Bellvue, CO 80512

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11a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:19 pm ((PDT))

My vet(s) thinks that my dog should be on a complete diet as its 'got everything they need' They would say that, since going on raw his cysts have disapeared (no more antibiotics and steroids needed for that) No more eye problems (no more drops and consultations for that) and his 'colitis' has disapeared (no more supplements and Royal Canin tins for that then!) and he has the most glossy coat, he is also much more 'trainable' and calm (not to mention a noticeable lack of body odour)

One of the vets heard me say this to their receptionist (in reply to her comment on how good he was looking/behaving - he had become a bit of a regular there!) and they (vet) said it was just his age! I dont know any Dobermann puppy that calms down at 8 or 9 months! (and has all the symptoms mentioned until a certain age!) I have learned that there was nothing wrong with my dog as he is perfectly happy and healthy now, just an inappropriate diet that had caused some problems.

I just told the truth, he was doing great and I think its best for him as there are many improvements in him and his behaviour, so he will be staying on it. End of.

At the end of the day, they dont live with the dog, you do, you are only paying them for their medical expertise when the dog needs it so thats all you need, not their personal opinion on raw feeding.

All I can do is tell you what I done about it but hopefully you will find it helpful,

Regards,

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (26)
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12. OT: list for general dog questions with a holistic slant
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone, can you recommend another list (sister list perhaps?) where I can ask some dog
questions about health, general care, etc.? Something with a holistic approach, as we are
looking for alternatives to standard heartworm prevention, etc.

Thanks,

Michelle, new owner to a little 10 # terrier mix from the shelter. We love him! :)

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. new puppy need help
Posted by: "akhwbj1" akhwbj1@yahoo.com akhwbj1
Date: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:19 pm ((PDT))

We just got a boston terrier from our best friends because their little girl was allergic. He is 3 months old and started puking on my boyfriend last friday night....to make things short he spent the weekend in puppy ICU ad we still dont know whats wrong. After we brought him home he still was throwing up. My boyfriends mom feeds her boxers raw and i switched Oscr to raw to see if that will help. We are only three days in and it is already better. He hasnt thrown up or anything. My question is: how much should we be feedin him. My boyfriends mom is watching him throughout the day and she said he ate a whole chicken leg quarter this morning. He is not getting sick but is he eating to much. I hav heard to let him eat until he moves away and then u know he is done....but i just need some advice. Thanks Alecia, Brandon, and Oscar

Messages in this topic (1)
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