[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12196

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
From: Giselle

2a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: darkstardog
2c. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Hi - New Here!
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: T Smith

5a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: carnesbill
5b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Loraine Jesse

6. Blood in poo
From: Jennifer

7a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: Mal Firth
7b. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: Dina

8a. Re: swallowing food whole
From: erikamdey
8b. swallowing food whole
From: spricketysprock

9. Turkey drums- dangerous?
From: jennifer_hell

10. Puppy has large amount of urine output.
From: Kathy Roop

11. Butchering help
From: Mary Tinder

12a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
From: spricketysprock

Messages
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1a. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:09 am ((PDT))

Hi, Cindi!
You're right, we do need to talk about meatymeat.

But, new-to-raw people who come here for answers to their questions are
focused on RMBs and meaty bones from reading about different 'raw'
philosophies and feeding plans on other websites and from books - they don't
know from meat, and don't ask questions about it often enough.

I think if you reread most of the informational recommendations from
experienced raw feeders on THIS list , you will see how much we DO talk
about meatymeat and organs.

And the NAME of the diet, at least on this list, is species appropriate
whole prey model - raw feeding for short.

The mods, while they do respond to topics asking questions, as do other
experienced raw feeding volunteers, don't direct or decide the topics or
questions - except to announce an OT subject, point to a more relevant list,
or intervene in a discussion when necessary. The topics and questions are
decided by the people posting the topics, who need the information . They
ask the questions that they have become concerned about. You can't ask a
question that you aren't aware of.

Easily edible bone and easily digested meatymeat, in the form of chicken, is
recommended by most of us as a starting point for new-to-raw feeders. Why?
Because easy to consume and digest bone and meat is a great way to get a dog
started eating raw, and chicken is easy to manipulate by removing visible
fat, trimming skin, feeding larger or smaller portions, feeding more or less
bone by offering only leg quarters or breast quarters. By changing all these
variables, you can feed a lower fat, bonier meal to produce firmer stools.
By feeding smaller portions more frequently, you can minimize loose or
sloppy stools. Chicken is also bland and easy to digest for most dogs. By
learning how to do all these things with chicken early on in introducing raw
to your dog, you can learn what you need to know to handle introducing more
proteins and organ variety. And, chicken is easy to obtain, and cheap!

Yes, the diet you pointed out is heavy on bone, and also light on protein,
animal part and organ variety. But, it does offer easily edible and
digestible bone. It would be easy to make it lower fat by removing visible
fat and trimming skin from the chicken that is fed and by adding some
protein and organ variety, skin and fur/feathers; whole prey, like rabbit,
rats, quail, hamsters, guinea pigs, etc. to the diet. The fish in the diet
outlined is great!

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

www.taylorpondfarm*s*.com/ <http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/>

These are great sites, and are proponents of feeding lots of meat, a little
bone and some organs;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://mypetcarnivore.com/dogs_eating.htm
These suggestions, too, recommend feeding lots of meatymeat, a little bone,
and some organs. But, because bones are what scare people, and what they
have no experience feeding and what carries 'Mystique' in the raw feeding
'world', it does deal with it a lot;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/23/07, cynthiashankman <ShankMa4@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > My doxie's diet rotation consisted of turkey necks, chicken wings/
> > drummet, fish twice a week (full, raw sardine) and a piece of
> chicken
> > liver weekly. IF my doxie survives this unexplainable sickness,
> > they're suggesting completely OFF raw and switch to a low-fat
> kibble.
>
> Doesn't the above rotation need more meaty meat???? All the meals
> have bone in them!!?? Right?
>
> It seems we don't talk enough about "just meaty meals" without bone.
> We talk more about bone meals and it can be misleading to a
> beginner. Especially when we talk about giving chicken with bone in
> for one week -two weeks in the beginning. Then a beginner doesn't
> realize about giving just meaty meals. And the name of the diet is
> confusing too ... "Raw Meaty Bones".
>
> 80% meat; 10% bone; and 10% organ. That is not what the above
> rotation consists of. Right?
>
> Moderators: Could we please talk more about meaty meals, aka no bone
> meals.
>
> Thanks, because I know I was confused in the beginning too. I fed
> too much bone. My dog had powder-like poops.
>
> Cindi
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:35 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/23/2007 1:48:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jess.hamway@gmail.com writes:

But what's so great about it?

***green tripe isn't magic food.. it's good food, dogs like it, it's a great
help when you have a dog that is refusing food or has an upset tummy and needs
to eat.

But it's nothing more than another body part.. part of the animal that you're
feeding to your dogs. that's it.. that's ALL.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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2b. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Josephine Morningstar"
<josephine.morningstar@...> wrote:
>
> Pepsinogen has an additional 44 amino acids. its also called a
> zymogen.
>
> Pepsin cleaves 44 amino acids from pepsinogen to creat more
> pepsin.

>I just have not totally uncovered all of the 44
> amino acids it contains..
>

I don't know what amino acids are in that segment; it's available
online somewhere. But they would be from the same types of amino acids
that are found in any protein, from the usual list of about 20 types
of amino acids. 44 is the number of amino acids in the cut-off
segment, not the number of types of amino acids in the segment.

I still question whether green tripe is made specifically with the 4th
stomach. Maybe some people who sell green tripe only use the 4th
stomach chamber, but I haven't read anything that makes me think they
all do. (One possible reason why that might be the case is if the
other parts of the stomach are easier to sell for human food.)

marty

Messages in this topic (18)
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2c. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:18 am ((PDT))

Don't know nuthin' 'bout no amino acids, but this is what wiki has to say;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
and about tripe;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe
So, it says that the first three stomachs are used in people food, so I'm
assuming that commercially processed tripe for dogs, either raw or cooked,
is, at least in part, from the fourth stomach.

TC
Giselle

On 10/24/07, darkstardog <darkstardog@charter.net> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Josephine Morningstar"
> <josephine.morningstar@...> wrote:
> >
> > Pepsinogen has an additional 44 amino acids. its also called a
> > zymogen.
> >
> > Pepsin cleaves 44 amino acids from pepsinogen to create more
> > pepsin.
>
> >I just have not totally uncovered all of the 44
> > amino acids it contains..
> >
>
> I don't know what amino acids are in that segment; it's available
> online somewhere. But they would be from the same types of amino acids
> that are found in any protein, from the usual list of about 20 types
> of amino acids. 44 is the number of amino acids in the cut-off
> segment, not the number of types of amino acids in the segment.
>
> I still question whether green tripe is made specifically with the 4th
> stomach. Maybe some people who sell green tripe only use the 4th
> stomach chamber, but I haven't read anything that makes me think they
> all do. (One possible reason why that might be the case is if the
> other parts of the stomach are easier to sell for human food.)
>
> marty
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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3a. Re: Hi - New Here!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:47 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Deborah" <debbs_dave@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> So, you think a puppy of five months can have periodontal disease?

Yep. Bad breath is usually a sign of decaying food in the dogs
mouth. That causes periodontal disease.

> I never thought that a pup this young would be likely to have
> periodontal disease,...

Bad breath says if he doesn't have it, he's on the way.

> They
> look fine, clean and no tartar or obvious inflammation of his gums.

You can see periodontal disease if you know what to look for. Gum
inflamation is the main indicator. It can and often is hidden
between and behind teeth.

> However, as I said, I'm trying to learn about rawfeeding as I do
> believe it will make a difference for him.

I am relatively sure it will do away with his bad breath. It did
for my two Goldens 5 years ago. They had terrible breath but in
just a few weeks, it was puppy breath again.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:47 am ((PDT))

I guess I don't understand. I will have to reassess this whole thing. It's
just very confusing, I keep getting different 'directions' on feeding. I'm
into this 3 weeks & I really do not know where to go from here.
For those of you who have been doing this a long time, it's very simplistic
to you & maybe it doesn't make sense to you why newbies are so confused but
there is too much information out there that is a bit contradictory....
going too fast, too slow, not enough, too much......there's just hasn't been
a way to get an exact idea of what to do. And being raised my whole life as
a k***le feeder, this is truly confusing.
I read alot of posts unless the subject isn't something directly related to
the way of starting out (or head feeding * ! * ) & I have read on line too
& 80%, 10%, 10% is clear, however, how the heck do I determine how much bone
is in ... let's say... a thigh? I honestly was not aware to feed strictly
meat without bone in meals.... somewhere along the line this wasn't clear
(to me).
I'm trying really hard to get this but I admit, I am confused on what to
do.....
Maybe, if someone gives me a good example of a daily feeding for a giant
breed or someone who has a 20 pound dog (since I have both) I can get a
clear picture of how to do this without hurting my dogs (or getting too
frustrated to stick to it).
As I said, the giant ones do have sensitive systems.
Please feel free to email me privately with your dog's daily or weekly
feeding (I feed twice a day) ..
I just am trying very hard to get it right.
Thanks,
Trina

On 10/23/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> If I recall correctly, you did a Kitchen Sink when you started
> feeding raw. That alone--forget unprepared tummies--will cause loose
> stools.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:47 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Deborah" <debbs_dave@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I understand that rawfeeding is a percentage of body
> weight. So if
> I want to give my dog meaty bones, does the bone count as part
> of the
> weight?

Debs,
You are spending a lot of time and energy worrying about things that
you don't need to worry about. You can make your head spin worrying
about percentages, ratios, weights, and measures. Just feed your
dog animal parts. Period. Don't worry about anything else. Feed
him the amount that looks right. If he starts getting chubby, feed
less. If he gets too skinny, feed more. It's as simple as that.
Feed a vareity of animal parts from a variety of animals, mostly
meat, some bone, some organs.

Don't worry about calories, protein, fat, bone or anything else.
Feeding a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals will
take care of all those.

I have never weighed a meal, measured bone, cut off fat, worried
about calories in 5 years of raw feeding. Those amounts and
percentages aren't critical. They aren't critical in your diet and
they aren't in your dog's diet.

Just relax and enjoy watching your dog eat animal parts. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

Perfect answer Bill. I need to forward this on to one of my puppy people. She is picking up her puppy on Sunday and was asking me the same sort of question.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: carnesw@bellsouth.netDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:21:30 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: When feeding organ meat question
_________________________________________________________________
R U Ready for Windows Live Messenger Beta 8.5? Try it today!
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Messages in this topic (5)
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6. Blood in poo
Posted by: "Jennifer" kali_moonwolf@yahoo.com kali_moonwolf
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:47 am ((PDT))

Hi! I know this is one of those more uncomfortable topics, but I had a
question- my puppy, Tikahni, who is now 8 weeks, has a drop of blood in
his poop, when He goes. He doens't seem to be constipated, and I feed
him a nice selection of raw, meaty bones with a little extra meat
(since he WAS constipated the first day or so). I've had him on raw
food for a little over a week, and he seems healthy otherwise. Does
anyone else's dog get this way? A while ago I knew another dog had this
happen on raw food but I didn't know his owner, and although I know he
was fine, don't know what the vet had said. Anyway, thought you all
might know why this sometimes happens on this diet. Thanks!
-Jennifer

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "Mal Firth" firth_malcolm@yahoo.co.uk firth_malcolm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dina" <dotdog99@...> wrote:
>
> Hi group--
> I had to share this story with a group of people that would "get it"--
> and have a good laugh.
>
> I told this person that kibble wasn't a true protein source for a
> carnivore as it is cooked (and so many other things, I know, but the
> little brain couldn't take too much at once) and carnivores don't
cook--
>
> Her reply was "and carnivores don't shop...That would eliminate your
> raw food plan..."
>
> Dina Melendez
>
Carnivores go "shopping" every time they go out looking for something
to catch and kill ;-)

Mal Firth

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "Dina" dotdog99@comcast.net dmmelendez
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:50 am ((PDT))

I didn't want to bore everyone with the facts of the disscussion (as
we know what they are)that we had--I was actually fielding questions
from 3 people at one time and in different directions--this person
was the only "smart" person that didn't know when to stop and then
didn't have a "way" to and looked stupid when she did.

All of the other's disscussed it properly and for the right person
listening--they got the info needed. I actually talked to one person
privately and they will probably be moving onto raw if someone
doesn't talk them out of it!

The finale, after her "shopping" comment was that she had to go to
work as she manages a thousand person health care system and my point
of view had no logic...

My dear friend said it best, "You can't talk normal to a crazy
person."

scary.

Keeps things interesting.

With regards,
Dina

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Re: swallowing food whole
Posted by: "erikamdey" erikamdey@hotmail.com erikamdey
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:48 am ((PDT))

++++Mod note: pls sign your emails ++++++++++++++++

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. I'll be sure to try the bigger stuff tomorrow -luckily
I have the whole bird, just didn't start with the right parts! :-)
Erika
*phew! As I type this, I smell the leftovers of chiken wing, man, didn't know a creature that
small could produce something potent! lol

-Feed your dog bigger food. Try a leg or thigh, a whole leg quarter or a breast quarter. Wings
are a little heavy on bone.

-Give your Papillon things to eat that start out bigger than his head.
That prevents gulping. Be sure to stick around during the meal to remove
that last gulp-sized bite that is throat-sized and could cause choking.

-never expect your dog to chew with good manners
-Amazingly large pieces can fit down their throat with no problem. Dog digestion doesn't
begin until the food reaches the stomach.

-Chicken wings are 1.) too small unless part of the whole bird, and
2.) too boney for your Papillon. Better to start him on bone-in chicken breast
than wings. Or, buy a whole chicken, cut into "parts" and feed.

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. swallowing food whole
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:15 am ((PDT))

I'm a big fan of freezing or semi-freezing large chunks. Gets it nice
and hard so your dog has to gnaw away bit by bit. Also great on the
teeth!

Jess and Toby

Messages in this topic (7)
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9. Turkey drums- dangerous?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

I think I should stop reading cr*ppy websites, but I want to ask just
in case- I read turkey drums and wings= bad because the birds are
often older, and therefore can crack and get sharp edges etc? That's
not a problem, right? It's more the bone/ meat ratio of wings and
drums? I get evry meaty drums and wings though, and feed it with other
meat (I get free range turkey drums and wings for cheap).
Okay, please don't laugh at me. I'm still a noobie! *grin*

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (1)
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10. Puppy has large amount of urine output.
Posted by: "Kathy Roop" naps2003@yahoo.com naps2003
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

Hi,

Does anyone know why my puppy would have large amounts of urine output on the raw diet? I have had his urine checked and everything is normal including the specific gravity. He is 5 months old and seem incontinent.. Any suggestions? I have been feeding total raw for 7 years now.

Thanks,
Kathy

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Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Butchering help
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:27 am ((PDT))

Folks, this topic must have been covered in the past but I'm a newbie
and having trouble finding anything on it in the message history.

My goats are going to the butcher Tuesday and I will need to tell him
how I want it cut. Cut at the natural joints? Saw in uniform
size/weight pieces>? I'm just a bit anxious having never done this
before.

He says he will not keep the skin on. Some sort of health issue. Who
WOULD?

Mary Tinder

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:31 am ((PDT))

Eh, I'm all about variety. There are some people who include a small
bit of veggies with the raw diet and their dogs still thrive on it.
Many people have written books about raw diets incorporating veggies
(or even grains) and claim their dogs live very long, healthy lives. So
if it makes you feel better, go ahead and include some premixed raw
food. I would stick with homemade raw (i.e. whole prey) as the basis,
though.

No one really knows the best diet for a dog, but I think the raw diet
is best suited because it is based on the diet of a wolf, which has the
same digestive system as a dog (they are basically the same species).
There is no "scientific proof" for the perfect diet for dogs just like
there is none for that of humans, but looking at the diet of ancestors
is always helpful, no matter the species!

Regardless, even if wolves didn't eat veggies, some think the nutrients
in veggies are still absorbed and beneficial to dogs. I don't feed it,
but whatever works for your dog.

Jess and Toby (still new on here)

Messages in this topic (6)
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