[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12195

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: 7 days without normal poop (update)
From: lsesassy

2a. swallowing food whole
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: swallowing food whole
From: Michael Moore

3a. Re: why is my dog eating her poo
From: carnesbill
3b. Re: why is my dog eating her poo
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: why is my dog eating her poo
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: Yasuko herron
4b. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: Josephine MorningStar

5a. Re: Hi - New Here!
From: Deborah

6a. Re: Soft pork bones
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Soft pork bones
From: Josephine Morningstar
6c. Re: Soft pork bones
From: doreenchui

7a. When feeding organ meat question
From: Deborah
7b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Giselle

8a. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
From: Josephine Morningstar
8b. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Urine output from a puppy on Raw Diet.
From: Casey Post

10a. Re: Now what?
From: Casey Post
10b. Re: Now what?
From: Monica

11a. Re: Packaged raw diets
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Josephine Morningstar

Messages
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1a. Re: 7 days without normal poop (update)
Posted by: "lsesassy" lsesassy@yahoo.com lsesassy
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:34 pm ((PDT))

Thanks everyone for your help. Dempster is doing better. I took the
advice to feed him a little less until he adjusts and that seemed to
do the trick. He acts like he is so hungry though, so I am starting
to increase the quantity again. So far, so good! Looks like we are
officially on a raw diet!!!

Laura

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. swallowing food whole
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)"
<carolyn.garnaas@...> wrote:
>
>
> Give your Papillon things to eat that start out bigger than
> his head.

The previous 2 posts are correct. Feed larger pieces BUT ... never
expect your dog to chew with good manners like a human. Dog's don't
chew like us. We chew our food into a mush before we swallow it.
Our digestion begins in our mouth during chewing. Dogs only crunch,
rip and tear larger pieces into smaller pieces just large enough to
fit down their throat. Amazingly large pieces can fit down their
throat with no problem. Dog digestion doesn't begin until the food
reaches the stomach.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: swallowing food whole
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:36 pm ((PDT))

>>I have a little dog, a 7# papillon who just started on this diet. How
do I get him to NOT swallow his food whole, or maybe is this okay at
first? He's decided that this was the best invention created by me,
but man, I think he's overzealous. This morning he got a chicken wing
and after eating the first joint off, he swallowed the upper joint
whole! <<

Erika -- while my Corgi puppies are bigger than 7 lbs. now (they're 6 mos.), they were weaned to raw, and so were about the size of your fella when they started out. Chicken wings are 1.) too small unless part of the whole bird, and 2.) too boney for your Papillon. Better to start him on bone-in chicken breast than wings. Or, buy a whole chicken, cut into "parts" and feed. But, having said that, dogs do not chew their food as humans do, so his grab-and-swallow technique is normal. Feeding "bigger" foods will cause him to have to rip and tear before he swallows. Make sense?

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: why is my dog eating her poo
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maradethc" <maradethc@...> wrote:
>
> But maybe she is missing somthing in her diet.
> They are on the raw diet. I make my own vegie min and they
> get chicken
> backs. Is there something i can do.

Drop the veggies. My dogs ate poop while they were kibble fed and
when I fed veggies the first few months on raw. When I dropped the
veggies they stopped. I suspect they smell undigested nutrients in
the veggie poop.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: why is my dog eating her poo
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:02 pm ((PDT))

Maradeth,

Start out by dumping the veggie mix and marrow bones, add some nice red meat
and see what happens. May or may not help but your diet, if you are only
feeding chicken backs, is definitely lacking in meat and variety.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "maradethc" <maradethc@yahoo.com>

Hi everyone. Its so gross my dog is eating poo. I am not sure if its
hers. I have 4 dogs. But maybe she is missing somthing in her diet.
They are on the raw diet. I make my own vegie min and they get chicken
backs. They also eat marro bones to. Is there something i can do. Thanks

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: why is my dog eating her poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:24 pm ((PDT))

"maradethc" <maradethc@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. Its so gross my dog is eating poo.
*****
Your best bet is to pick it up before she can get it, if you cannot
bear for her to eat the stuff.

But maybe she is missing somthing in her diet.
*****
What are you feeding?

I make my own vegie min and they get chicken
> backs.
*****
Heck, based on this information, I'd say your girl was starved for
meat. Ditch the veggies, add meat to her diet. Plenty o' meat.

Do your dogs actually EAT marrow bones, or do they simply suck out the
marrow and gnaw on the bones? Not much nutrition in marrow bones, lots
of fat though. Mostly marrow bones are dangerous to your dogs' teeth.
I suggest you stop them as well.

Summary: Quit wasting valuable menu space on veggies. Add meat to the
diet. However much veggie stuff you remove from the bowl, add that
much meat. Then add more meat to pad out the chicken backs. And then
find meatier edible bones that will replace the marrow bones and also
bump the chicken backs into well-deserved second-rate status.

That may be what your girl needs. If her behavior continues, at the
very least you will have upgraded her diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

It was interesting to read your forum answer to yourdebate:-P

Well,dog doesn't shop,sure,but waht dogs eat was in discussion subject andshe was not talking about food itself,lol.

You could tell her that dog does not cook,that must be funny.

But as I read and know more about kibble,I be so shocked about kibble.

Animal products are from dead or rendered animal carcas,road kill animals..;meat meal,bone meal,animal by-products...

And to make meat meal,it is cooked twice with 300-400F and it loose nutrients and afterall,after making finish products,kibble,they spray the Vitamins and they spray more than enough amount to makesure dog gets it the amount required.

andsome ingredients are not in listed on label,and high carb content in kibble using cheap grain source to make kibble and, coloring,preservative,additives,etc to have longer shelf life and it has high salt content as well.

Then,every time you open the kibble bag,air gets in and make mold or fungus or other stuff not great on dog and dog gets sick.

i have readsomewhere that to prevent such deterioration,you should keep kibble in freezer,but it is not fresh still.

I think raw meat is freshest meal dogs can eat,and enjoy without all those additive,preservative etc etc.

We have control over ingredients and we see what goes into our dog's mouth while we cannot know exact detail of ingredients of kibble and cannot have control over the kibble ingredients. some bags are for all life stage kibble but I now think that each dog has indivisual needs and unique and some dog has no prob with lamb meat biut other dog have some issue with it and needs to be tweaked etc,so,kibble should not say it is for all dogs.

no matter how the kibble bag say Whole some food in it,it isn't.

it is not fresh.

I will stick with rawfeeding because I believe that it is freshest way to feed without anything chemical.

I think it will be great if many more people recognised how good the rawfeeding is,and many more dogs get to be fed raw andget healthier,but not everybody believe the way we do.

At least,our dogs are healthier and,you should be proud you made best choice ever for yourdog:-PNo matter howother people tell you,I believe this isthe way to go to get your dog healthier and live longer..

I have once been told that I should be feeding good balanced kibble,but no way,I would not go feed dead animal meat....

yassy

__________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "Josephine MorningStar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dina" <dotdog99@...> wrote:
>
>
> Her reply was "and carnivores don't shop...That would eliminate your
> raw food plan..."
>

actually they do.. they shop around for what animal they want to eat..
and then they shop around on the animals they caught on what to eat
first..

granted its not a supermarket.. but its still a *grocery store*.. giggle.

Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Hi - New Here!
Posted by: "Deborah" debbs_dave@yahoo.co.uk debbs_dave
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> His bad breath is telling you that he is NOT "very healthy". He
> propably had periodontal disease. Changing to a raw diet will most
> likely eliminate this in less than a month with no intervention by
a vet.
>
> Bill Carnes

Hi Bill,

So, you think a puppy of five months can have periodontal disease? I
mean, he's teething, of course, and losing his puppy teeth, which
sometimes causes some bleeding (very short lived)

I never thought that a pup this young would be likely to have
periodontal disease, since he's only getting in his adult teeth. They
look fine, clean and no tartar or obvious inflammation of his gums.
However, as I said, I'm trying to learn about rawfeeding as I do
believe it will make a difference for him.

Thank you for your response!

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Soft pork bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

hi,what does "soft pork bone"means??

I feed pork ribs (spareribs or back ribs),Pork Neckbone,Pork feet for bone,and I add more meat to it like from pork loin (I got the loin with 1.7 dollars per pound and 10lb meat at local store). You can feed pork butt thathasmeat and bone andyou can pick up pork picnic that has meat and bone...

Feet bone is little harder than other area of pork bone but ribs bone especially as soft as turkey bone I feel.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Soft pork bones
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:35 pm ((PDT))

On 10/23/07, Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> hi,what does "soft pork bone"means??

I also feed soft pork bones.. that is the cartlidge ? that is between the
ends of the ribs where they go around to the breast bone. or that softer
bone when you get short ribs? more like cartiledge i think.

sometimes heather poops them straight out.. but the other bone that she
consumed.. was not showing up at all.

even i dont know why .. grin (other then the real bone was enough calcium
and the cartlidge was more then she needed???)

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Soft pork bones
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:37 pm ((PDT))

It is part of ribs, I think. The bone is kind of round and is white
in color.
Doreen
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> hi,what does "soft pork bone"means??
>
> I feed pork ribs (spareribs or back ribs),Pork Neckbone,Pork feet
for bone,and I add more meat to it like from pork loin (I got the
loin with 1.7 dollars per pound and 10lb meat at local store). You
can feed pork butt thathasmeat and bone andyou can pick up pork
picnic that has meat and bone...
>
> Feet bone is little harder than other area of pork bone but ribs
bone especially as soft as turkey bone I feel.
>
> yassy
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Deborah" debbs_dave@yahoo.co.uk debbs_dave
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I understand that rawfeeding is a percentage of body weight. So if
I want to give my dog meaty bones, does the bone count as part of the
weight? I'm assuming it does, but that would make the calorie count
rather low, wouldn't it?

So, when I decide to feed, say liver - is that supposed to be the same
percentage? That is, if I have a one hundred pound dog who eats 3% of
his weight per day, or three pounds.. does he get three pounds of
liver? Or heart, or whatever?

Thank you in advance!

Debs

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

Overall you will be feeding approximately 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs,
half of the organs being liver. Whatever you are feeding for the day
counts, but bone is a very small part of the diet...liver is even smaller!
:)

This doesn't need to be "balanced" every day....over time, those are the
approximate %'s.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Deborah" <debbs_dave@yahoo.co.uk>

Ok, I understand that rawfeeding is a percentage of body weight. So if
I want to give my dog meaty bones, does the bone count as part of the
weight? I'm assuming it does, but that would make the calorie count
rather low, wouldn't it?

So, when I decide to feed, say liver - is that supposed to be the same
percentage? That is, if I have a one hundred pound dog who eats 3% of
his weight per day, or three pounds.. does he get three pounds of
liver? Or heart, or whatever?

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:21 am ((PDT))

Hi, Debs!
OK, the percentages often quoted (by myself, included) are
guidelines ONLY.
You DON'T have to mess with percentages, and virtually every other
experienced long term raw feeder on this list, including myself, does NOT
weigh the food or their dogs after an initial
its-scary-to-feed-raw-I-have-to-do-this-exactly-right period. The length of
time varies with each person, but weighing and measuring becomes superfluous
and gets old pretty fast.

If you are going to use the percentages to begin with, and to get a handle
on raw feeding, you need to figure from each dog or pup's estimated IDEAL
ADULT weight.

2-3% of the EIABW is again, a ballpark figure - somewhere in the middle to
start with. Smaller, toy breeds, more active, puppies, pregnant dogs may
need considerably more, like 4-6%. Larger, giant breeds, older, hefty, less
active dogs may need considerably less, like <1%-2%.

These are fluid figures, and change with the seasons, the age and activity
level and condition of your dogs.

80% meat is comprised of muscle, fat, connective tissue, skin, fur, anything
that isn't bone or organs. Muscley organs, like heart, tongue, tripe, is
fed, and counted as, meatymeat.

10% organs - liver comprises 3-5%, the rest is 'other' 5-7% - kidney,
spleen, thymus, pancreas, eyeballs, you know, the squidgey ick stuff.

10% EDIBLE bone and gristle - if the dog can't consume it, if it doesn't get
chewed up, swallowed and digested, and the dog's body can't assimilate the
nutrients from it, then it doesn't count as part of the diet.

Just like you wouldn't count that cookie you left on the plate in your daily
calorie count, if you were on a reducing diet, anything that doesn't go down
the dog's gullet and get digested shouldn't count either.

So, count as part of the dog's diet anything he can entirely consume and
derive nourishment from. Anything you toss in the trash, or that comes up,
or out, undigested, isn't.

I would recommend being extremely cautious and gradually working up to
feeding anything approaching an entire day's worth of liver, or heart. Or
whatever. Cannon Butt, or Hershey Squirts, often don't bother the dog, but
it squicks people out.

Some recommendations for starting to feed raw;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
Don't think meaty bones, or RMBs - think animal parts, some with edible
bones, a lot without any bones at all!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/23/07, Deborah <debbs_dave@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> OK, I understand that raw feeding is a percentage of body weight. So if
> I want to give my dog meaty bones, does the bone count as part of the
> weight? I'm assuming it does, but that would make the calorie count
> rather low, wouldn't it?
>
> So, when I decide to feed, say liver - is that supposed to be the same
> percentage? That is, if I have a one hundred pound dog who eats 3% of
> his weight per day, or three pounds.. does he get three pounds of
> liver? Or heart, or whatever?
>
> Thank you in advance!
>
> Debs
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:42 pm ((PDT))

On 10/23/07, woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com> wrote:
>
> Read the label on the low fat
> prescription diets and you'll be disgusted. It's all carbs!

AND antifreeze.. that is the *Ethoxyquin* which is a quinoline-based
antioxidant used as a food preservative and a pesticide. It is commonly used
as a preservative in pet foods to prevent the spoilage of fats. To date, the
US FDA has only found a verifiable connection between ethoxyquin and buildup
of protoporphyrin IX in the liver, as well as elevations in liver-related
enzymes in some animals. (protoporphyrin IX has to do with the blood
carrying oxygen)

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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8b. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

Cindi,

We talk about meat only meals constantly! Every day, several times a day I
see the recommendation to feed more meat, 80% of the diet should be meat,
start with chicken and as soon as the dog has adjusted add more meat,
variety and organs....it's constant. I don't know where anyone gets the
idea this is a bone diet. They certainly are not learning that here,
although you are correct the name "Raw Meaty Bones" is confusing.

Feed more meat...lots and lots of nice red meat! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@aol.com>

It seems we don't talk enough about "just meaty meals" without bone.
We talk more about bone meals and it can be misleading to a
beginner. Especially when we talk about giving chicken with bone in
for one week -two weeks in the beginning. Then a beginner doesn't
realize about giving just meaty meals. And the name of the diet is
confusing too ... "Raw Meaty Bones".

Messages in this topic (10)
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8c. Re: Dog's serious sickness blamed on raw food?!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:14 pm ((PDT))

"cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
>> It seems we don't talk enough about "just meaty meals" without bone.
> We talk more about bone meals and it can be misleading to a
> beginner. Especially when we talk about giving chicken with bone in
> for one week -two weeks in the beginning. Then a beginner doesn't
> realize about giving just meaty meals. And the name of the diet is
> confusing too ... "Raw Meaty Bones".
>
> 80% meat; 10% bone; and 10% organ. That is not what the above
> rotation consists of. Right?
>
> Moderators: Could we please talk more about meaty meals, aka no bone
> meals.
*****
I think if you were to check the archives you'd see that meatymeat
meals are strongly encouraged. I think you'll find possibly endless
commentary on the amount of meat in a good raw diet. You may find
disagreement as to how much meat is enough, but I doubt you'll find any
endorsement of a bone-driven menu.

Perhaps it's not that the Mods or others don't talk enough about the
importance of meat in a raw diet; perhaps it's that some people are not
paying attention. Or that they come to the rawfeeding list with
preconceived notions (from various authors) that devalue the role of
meat in a good raw diet.

I have said it before and I will happily, gladly said it again: Meat
rules! Meat glorious meat. Meat on the bone, meat off the bone: Meat.

You simply cannot go wrong by feeding meat. You may have to figure out
what is the "right" meat for a dog, or what amount is best for the dog;
and you may have to develop a feeding plan that is most beneficial for
the dog. But none of that reduces the worthiness of meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. Re: Urine output from a puppy on Raw Diet.
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:50 pm ((PDT))

> I have been feeding a raw diet to my adult dogs and now my 4 month old
> Border Collie pup. Has anyone every had a problem with large amounts
> of urine output, as though he can't hold it. I had his urine checked
> and the specific gravity is ok in the AM, but he piddles alot, even
> when walking around

What exactly are you feeding? We've seen this a few times with food
allergies/sensitivities...

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Now what?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:54 pm ((PDT))

Monica,

Can you refresh us - what age and breed is Loki? And has the vet run a TLI
test on him?

Casey

Messages in this topic (19)
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10b. Re: Now what?
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:34 pm ((PDT))

Loki is a Keeshond, 4yrs old. I have no idea what a TLI is, so I'm
guessing one has not been run.

Monica

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> Monica,
>
> Can you refresh us - what age and breed is Loki? And has the vet run
a TLI
> test on him?
>
> Casey
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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11a. Re: Packaged raw diets
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:51 pm ((PDT))

"Margo Farnsworth" <mfarnsworth@...> wrote:>
> I'm looking for some honest feedback on the packaged raw diets
available.
*****
What an odd request. Why wouldn't you get honest feedback? Are you
thinking that perhaps if we were really and truly honest we'd
say "sure, we really love prefab food but we pretend we don't"?

Seems to me if you were to do any archive reading at all you'd get a
pretty clear impression of what we honestly think of packaged raw
diets. On this list, as opposed to any other list to which you might
be subscribed, we honestly think packaged raw foods are substandard.

>Reading the Bravo website, I saw that
> the beef flavor has almost a 5% ash content. Should this be of
concern, and
> why does it contain ash?
*****
I think Bravo is AAFCO approved (what a dubious distinction), at
least some Bravo products are--probably not the meat/bones combos or
the straight meat options. Ash is what remains from the chemical
analysis required to determine whether the composition of a product
meets the exacting and impartial (choke, choke) AAFCO standards.
Since ash come from a product that was clinically dismantled, it has
to be included, thus 5% ash.

No doubt about it that there are people on this list who can define
it much more elegantly (and properly) than can I.

I thought that was something that ended up in
> commercial dry foods and is considered a "bad" thing.
*****
It's a by-product of the evaluation process. It's not especially bad
or good except that it clearly ain't raw.

I'm just looking for
> something to make life a bit more convenient.
*****
What is the difference between a. RMB in the morning and a packaged
diet in the evenings and b. RMB in the morning and a hunk of meat (or
some cut up meat in a bowl) in the evenings?

How is the prefab stuff easier than a hunk o' flesh? Is it cheaper?
Nope. Is it healthier? Nope. Is it better for the teeth? Nope.
Is it easier to defrost a prefab chub than to defrost a chunk of
heart? Nope.

So what's the problem? What are you doing--what preconceptions have
you brought with you--that is turning custom raw into a challenge?

Are you thinking every meal must have bone? (It doesn't.) That the
non-RMB meal must include vegetables and supplements? (It doesn't.)
Are you afraid that the PM meal, were it to be a hunka meat, would be
insufficiently healthy? That your dog would be getting unbalanced
nutrition? (It wouldn't.)

I have made my life more convenient while also making my dogs' meals
more engrossing by feeding every other day or so. Other people have
made their lives more conveient while continuing to feed a healthy
and relevant diet by feeding once a day. There are ways to simplify
your life without relying on pre-chewed food.

Can we help?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jeremy,

OK....first of all, you don't need to throw food out if he doesn't eat...put
that bag back in the refrigerator and serve it at the next meal. Salmonella
is everywhere and really has little to do with feeding a raw diet.

Many dogs don't like cold food so warming it in a sinkful of warm water
might help....you could also slice into the meat in a few places. Just pick
a spot and put the food on a blanket or towel...no need for plates or bowls
other than to get the food to the eating place without dripping all over!
:) I would recommend sticking with raw...you aren't doing him any favors by
offering Solid Gold for his evening meal.

I think that drumsticks are probably too small for your dog tho. Maybe pick
up some chicken quarters next time...or even better yet, buy a whole chicken
and cut it into quarters for him.

Oh, and you don't need any powerful disinfectants...they are harmful to him
and you! :) A spray of vinegar/water will do nicely.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "liebo1134" <liebo1134@yahoo.com>

Hey guys my name is Jeremy and I'm new to the group . . . I have a 14 month
old American
Pit Bull Terrier named Achilles and have been researching RAW or BARF for
quite some time
now . . . i just decided to buy some chicken drumsticks at the local food
store (no hormones
injected and no additives or anything) and decided to give it to Achilles
tonight . . . anyway I
put him in a small area and put down 2 of the drumsticks and sat right next
to him and he
kept smelling them and licking them a lot . . . then he took one of them and
nawed on it and
at it pretty fast and then he went immediately to go to the bathroom . . .
after that he didn't
touch the 2nd one so i put it in a ziplock bag and threw it out cause i
didn't want it to be
exposed for salmonella and stuff like that . . . anyway I have a few
questions . . . did i do this
right? why did he only eat 1 if it was his first meal of the day? i
disenfected by washing the
floor with a nice lemon disenfectent so i'm assuming i did that write . . .
i basically just put
the chicken on paper plates by the way don't know if that was right . . .
but yeh anyway i feel
like the chicken drums were cold and maybe he didn't like them that cold? I
don't know any
help would be good . . . his 2nd and last meal is going to be solid gold
barking at the moon
cause i don't wanna mess everything up with him so quick . . .

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:30 pm ((PDT))

T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:>
>> I know I am giving bones in EVERY meal.........This is wrong??
*****
It's not "wrong" as long as your dogs thrive; it probably is
excessive though.

> I don't want my dogs getting runny poop again,
*****
If I recall correctly, you did a Kitchen Sink when you started
feeding raw. That alone--forget unprepared tummies--will cause loose
stools. What properly "cures" loose stools is adequate time for the
dog's digestive system to sit up and take notice, and adequate time
for the human to reduce handler error.

How much bone is in each meal is ultimately less important than how
much meat is in each meal. A turkey neck meal is not enough meat; a
turkey neck added to a generous pile of meat is probably not too much
bone.

Meat rules.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:34 pm ((PDT))

On 10/23/07, colliewoman <donna.frankland@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

> i have heard that it is bang full of nice enzymes,
>

Tripe usually contains the 4th stomach and the first part of the small
intestine. Thats because in the small intestine is another Enzyme called
Trypsin. (secreted by the pancreas)

even cows can not digest the plant cellulose in their diets.. hence they
have 4 stomachs to digest them.

The fourth stomach is called the abomasum, and is much like the stomach of a
human. however the other 3 stomachs that the food passed thru contained
bacteria and protozoa. but the HCL of pH 3 in the cows last stomach kills
any bacteria that is left This HCL would eat the lining of the cows stomach
if not for another secretion.. mucous. but still the entire lining of the
cows stomach is replaced every 3 days.

when pepsinogen interacts with the strong HCL in the abomasum, it produces
the protein-digesting enzyme pepsin. This enzyme separates proteins thru a
process called hydrolysis. In hydrolysis, a water molecule is inserted
between the two amino acids that are bonded together. This breaks the bond
between them by *capping* the free reactive ends with the H and the OH. A
protein, therefore, enters the abomasum as an intermediate structure (either
peptone or protease) and leaves in the form of the single amino acid
molecules.

in the first part of the small intestine where the pancreas secretes
trypsin, another enzyme which helps to break down more complex proteins into
simple amino acids. Trypsin continues the work begun in the stomach by the
pepsin and completes the process of breaking down proteins.

Pepsin is classed as a protease that functions to degrade food proteins into
peptides. Pepsinogen has an additional 44 amino acids. its also called a
zymogen.

HCL creates an acidic environment which allows pepsinogen to unfold and
cleave itself in an autocatalytic fashion, thereby generating pepsin (the
active form). Pepsin cleaves 44 amino acids from pepsinogen to creat more
pepsin. Pepsin will digest up to 20% of ingested carbon bonds by cleaving
preferentially after the N-terminal of aromatic amino acids such as
phenylalanine and tyrosine. It will not cleave bonds containing valine,
alanine or glycine.

tripe should be stored at very cold temperatures (between -20C and -80C) to
prevent autolysis (self cleavage). ..

this above makes me wonder how much pepsin is contained in canned tripe ..
as in any canning process, there is needed enough heat to seal the can in a
vacumn.

see.. i been studying it.. I just have not totally uncovered all of the 44
amino acids it contains..
--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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