[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12203

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: carolejc2007
1b. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: Denise Strother
1c. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: marclre
1d. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: Christine

2a. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: nkayl

4a. Two cats, different levels of transition
From: persephoneinfall
4b. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
From: Andrea
4c. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
From: persephoneinfall

5a. Detroit area raw feeding
From: Suzanne J
5b. Re: Detroit area raw feeding
From: persephoneinfall

6a. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Andrea
7b. Re: Hi everyone!
From: merril Woolf
7c. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Denise Strother
7d. Re: Hi everyone!
From: costrowski75

8.1. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
From: miensasis
8.2. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
From: tottime47

9. My Intro with a question of actual barfing/vomit (sorry=)
From: GoldenGirlAldi

10a. Re: Pup with worms
From: Tina Berry
10b. ADMIN/Re: Pup with worms
From: costrowski75

11a. Smelts
From: raffiangel2
11b. Re: Smelts
From: costrowski75

12.1. Re: Now what?
From: dancingbarefoot_11

Messages
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1a. Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone. I read this board on a daily basis and have learned so
much from you all. I have been raw feeding my dogs for five weeks
now and will never go back to ki**le. Raw rules!!!

I foster for two rescue groups (Greyhounds and Italian Greys). One
of my big Greys (I call her mine but she is a foster) is potentially
going to be adopted this weekend. Any way, my conundrum at this
point is this; now do I approach the adoptive family that I feed
raw? It is especially important for this particular dog since she
has always had a sensitive tummy on ki**le. I could never find a
ki**le that agreed with her tummy. Raw meat/bones have never been a
problem for her digestion and her poops are "normal" now. I know
many people still cringe at the thought of feeding raw and are
totally turned off by it. (I was "one of those" for a few years.) I
know that if she gets adopted and they start feeding her ki**le
again, her same tummy problems and soft serve poops will start all
over again. Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
wonderful information that is given on this website!

Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhoumds and 2 Italian Greys)

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:17 am ((PDT))

Carole,
I know how you feel, my fosters are my dogs til they find their new
home. I would just tell them what you told us in your post. I also
make sure my dog's adopters know that if there is any kind of issue
or problem that they are more than welcome to call me anytime. You
could also put together some info on rawfeeding. Email me privately
and I will send you a copy of the one I use and you can add or
subtract anything from it for your own use. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carolejc2007" <mooska2me@...>
wrote:
...one of my big Greys (I call her mine but she is a foster) is
potentially going to be adopted this weekend. Any way, my conundrum
at this point is this; now do I approach the adoptive family that I
feed raw? It is especially important for this particular dog since
she has always had a sensitive tummy on ki**le. I could never find
a ki**le that agreed with her tummy. Raw meat/bones have never been
a problem for her digestion and her poops are "normal" now. I know
many people still cringe at the thought of feeding raw and are
totally turned off by it. (I was "one of those" for a few years.)
I know that if she gets adopted and they start feeding her ki**le
again, her same tummy problems and soft serve poops will start all
over again. Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
wonderful information that is given on this website!

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

Carole maybe the best way is just to get right to it and explain the feeding issue to these
folks *before* they make their final decision. Let them know you've had to go through a
number of different feeds due to this girls' stomach problems and have discovered the one
which works best for her is raw. This is very important since they don't want to get it
wrong and then be dealing with a sick dog/runny poop down the line etc etc. You could
have a diet sheet/sources etc ready & also send them to the following links.

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

Also this Rawfeeding list of course!

Marie-Claire

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "Christine" chrizk20@yahoo.com chrizk20
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carolejc2007" <mooska2me@...> wrote:
Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
> discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
> feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
> wonderful information that is given on this website!
>
> Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhoumds and 2 Italian Greys)
>

Hi Carole,
If this were me... I would make sure I had some hand outs to give them
on the benifits of raw, what it means to give raw, what raw foods to
give, the myths about raw, etc. I would also give them handouts on what
is in K**ble, why its bad, etc, etc. This way, they can read about
K**ble vs. RAW type thing. Give them website to go to such as:

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.rawlearning.com/
and this yahoo group and many other websites.
Also, maybe the Works Wonder http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

also, explain to them why you feel that feeding raw to this dog is
important ....

again, if this were me, i would give them the information before the
they adopted the dog, so that they could read it all first and kind of
digest it all and hopefully perpare for the changes. IF at that point
that they felt they couldnt do raw for this dog, I would not let them
adopt the dog. And i would find a different home that would feed raw.
But this is just me and my opinions.

Hope that helps,
christine

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

> first thought huge swelling was lymphoma, paperwork from rescue came LATE
> (like 5 months after adoption was final) and it was hypothyroidism from
> the
> start and not lymphoma
>
> What foods? ratio? timetable would he need to get over the 2 wks of chemo
> and help straighten this poor service dog doberman out?

**I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused - chemo for hypothyroidism? I know about
radioactive iodine for hyperthyroidism, but ...oh wait - are you saying that
this service dog was treated for a cancer that he didn't have?

> owner still insists crap is better, BUT he isnt tolerating it. he LOVES
> tripe and LOVES raw chicken.. but should he get other meats? and im
> confused? not sure what to tell her

**Tripe and raw chicken would be a fine plan for weeks, if need be -
especially if that's what you have available and that's what this poor beast
is tolerating right now.

> due to my disability, im not able to read posts on the website. i have
> enough trouble reading it here on gmail,

**I'm hoping you've got your account set up to receive individual emails and
can read this.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

Thank you everyone for all the great information. I feel better now.

Natalie

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

I'm in the process of transitioning my cats to raw. One is older and
extremely picky/stubborn. I am trying to transition her by adding tiny
amounts of raw to her canned, but she knows they're in there and
refuses to eat, for the most part. She is also a very slow eater in
normal circumstances. She likes to take breaks and come back later,
probably a leftover from her days as a k***le grazer. I would have no
problem leaving things for her to try or finish at her leisure, but my
younger cat is a huge pig. I've had a problem with feeding both of
them since I got him. He wolfs down his food, then goes after hers,
often before he's even finished his own. He wants everyone's food!
She doesn't stop him either. The problem I'm having now is that I'm
starting him on the raw diet in a real way, but he doesn't want to do
all the work involved, especially with bones. He can smell the canned
I'm giving to the older cat, so goes looking. Does anyone have any
experience with having two animals that are in different stages of raw
feeding? Do you have any tips for me?
thanks, annette

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

All of my cats are incredibly picky and only one took to the diet in a
timeley fashion (and by that I mean it only took a month before she was
eating only raw). One of them is still a PITA after a year and a
half. I have to feed her in a separate room with the door closed or
the other two will eat her food. When she is alone she eats better, so
I usually feed her in the study while I am working on the computer so
that she doesn't feel rushed.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "persephoneinfall"
<persephoneinfall@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience with having two animals that are in
> different stages of raw feeding? Do you have any tips for me?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:13 am ((PDT))

Andrea,
can you share any tips on how you transitioned the finicky cats? any
help I can get in this area would be great, because my baby girl is
the most stubborn creature i have ever met, plus very smart. she
knows when there's some chunks of meat in there and she'll just turn
up her nose! (also, what is a PITA?)
annette.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> All of my cats are incredibly picky and only one took to the diet in a
> timeley fashion (and by that I mean it only took a month before she was
> eating only raw). One of them is still a PITA after a year and a
> half.
> Andrea
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Detroit area raw feeding
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

Just an fyi, I've been getting good bargains at Detroit Farmer's
Market. Chicken backs, feet, whole chickens at Capital Poultry, Sheep
heads, livers, hearts around the corner from there at a
slaughterhouse. Pigs feet, pork shoulder, etc, etc., all within the
same few blocks, and all at super prices. If you live in the area, I'd
start heading down there.

Suzanne Jacques/Royal Oak, MI

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Detroit area raw feeding
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

I live in Hamtramck and go the market every week. I'm assuming that
the places you're talking about are the meat wholesalers down there.
Do that have any requirements about the amounts you have to buy? I am
just starting out feeding two cats, with little storage/freezer space
so I can't really buy in bulk. also, what's the outlook on other
organs? is there some variety there? have you seen rabbits and small
game birds as well?
thanks for the info!
annette.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@...> wrote:
>
> Just an fyi, I've been getting good bargains at Detroit Farmer's
> Market. Chicken backs, feet, whole chickens at Capital Poultry, Sheep
> heads, livers, hearts around the corner from there at a
> slaughterhouse. Pigs feet, pork shoulder, etc, etc., all within the
> same few blocks, and all at super prices. If you live in the area, I'd
> start heading down there.
>
> Suzanne Jacques/Royal Oak, MI
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:49 am ((PDT))

Dee, it sounds like you have a plethora of fun stuff at this place!
Some of it would be just for fun snacks to me, but some sound great.

> - the Asian grocer sells whole poultry. As in, head and feet
> intact. My little boy will be 4-5 lbs when he comes home - will I
> be able to serve these to him?

Sure, I don't see any problem with them. Feet are really soft and I
don't imagine the skull is any harder than the thigh bone really. My
boys loooove whole chickens when we can get them.

> - may I give him squid as a meat only meal? Is there enough fat in
> it for a growing little boy, or should I add something to the meal?

Squid seems more like a for fun thing for me, though I've never tried
feeding it. I think Yassy fed her Corgi some squid once, maybe she
will chime in to let you know how it went.

> - can I feed him whole, shell-on shrimp? Would shrimp shells f
> ulfill his bone needs for the meal?

Remember that you don't have to have a completely "balanced" meal
every time so even if your pup doesn't eat the shells it is ok. I
fed shrimp to my boys once and they really enjoyed them. Again, this
item would be a fun variety meal instead of a staple in their diet.

> - for fish meals, does it make a difference if he gets a small
> fishy that he can eat in its entirety at one meal, or if I get a
> larger fish that I need to cut into portions for such a small boy?

When you start with fish, start slowly adding some fish into a
regular meal then work your way up. The first time Geiger ate fish I
gave him a whole 2lb monkfish for his meal and he was kind enough to
vomit it onto my bed in the middle of the night. Now I make sure he
gets a small meal of new fish at first and it hasn't happened since.

> - does anyone know anything about a silkie (black-skinned) chicken?
> How digestible is it as a first food compared to a regular chicken?

As far as I can tell the only difference with the black chicken is
that the skin, meat, and bones are black. I assume the flavor is
different, but I'm not sure. These birds should be just as edible as
standard chickens.

> - can I feed snails to my pup? How about oysters or scallops?

If your pup will eat them, sure. Tycho loves to snuffle around after
it rains to find snails. Oysters and scallops are something I would
be too greedy to share with them.

Of course, all this variety shouldn't be introduced too quickly. Go
slowly at first so you can determine how easily your pup accepts new
foods. Don't go overboard with excitement, I know it is hard.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:52 am ((PDT))

"D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
> - the Asian grocer sells whole poultry. As in, head and feet
intact. My
> little boy will be 4-5 lbs when he comes home - will I be able to
serve
> these to him?
*****
How old will the kid be?
Yes, you can most certainly feed through all chickens. What will
likely be problematic is your having to cut them into useful meal
size: If you cannot comfortably whack and dismember these chickens
you should consider other birds. For the pup, all are good eatin'.
I delight in feeding these "whole" birds to my dogs.

> - may I give him squid as a meat only meal? Is there enough fat in
it for a
> growing little boy, or should I add something to the meal?
*****
Squid is like totally extraneous. I would not waste money on it
ever, nor time on it now. Later if you have some mad money to get
rid of, try squid. Otherwise, focus on body parts from ungulates
and ruminants.

How would a duck
> wing work with a piece of squid - would that balance out the fat,
bone
*****
Forget the squid, okay? Squid is not species appropriate and isn't
even a reasonable facsimile. Feed a chicken wing with more chicken.

> - can I feed him whole, shell-on shrimp? Would shrimp shells
fulfill his
> bone needs for the meal?
*****
In fact, move away from that section entirely. You'll have time to
feed shrimp after you've mastered the basics. Shrimp shells are not
bones and don't take the place of bones in a carnivore's diet. They
do however offer naturally-occurring chondroitin which may be a
useful bit of knowing for later.

> - for fish meals, does it make a difference if he gets a small
fishy that he
> can eat in its entirety at one meal, or if I get a larger fish
that I need
> to cut into portions for such a small boy?
*****
Generally, no. When possible feed food that encourages a dog (of
any age or size) to work for its meal. Do fish meals make a
difference? Generally, no. Not unless you are struggling for
protein variety.

> - does anyone know anything about a silkie (black-skinned)
chicken? How
> digestible is it as a first food compared to a regular chicken?
*****
It's chicken. If you can afford it, feed it. It might be older
which might make it more difficult to eat, though not necessarily to
digest. If you are looking to spend big bucks on poultry, consider
instead freeranging chicken and turkey.

> - can I feed snails to my pup? How about oysters or scallops?
*****
Again, get away from that part of the store. I think your mind is
being addled by the freon. Oysters may be useful when feeding a
zinc-deficient dog. Otherwise, pfft. Scallops are silly unless you
can get them fresh, unequivocally scallop and not shark, and
preferably free.

You want snails, round up some at home, make sure they're not full
of snailbait, then let your pup decide. My dogs used scavenge
crushed snails but never volunteered to hunt any down.

> Okay... I think that's all I can think of for now....
*****
Dee, I think you may be thinking far too much.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

I wouldn't suggest adding lots of new things willy nilly into the
diet, but in my experience pups don't need the full week or two to
get used to a new food. I was very diligent with my first puppy
waiting exactly one week before moving from chicken to pork, and
waiting a full week between adding the first three or four proteins.
After the first month or so I was just too excited to wait a week to
try new stuff, so I just cut the week down to two days. With the
excetpion of the monkfish debacle, all went well. With my newest
puppy I started with chicken and two days later started adding in one
new thing every two days. Tycho has an iron stomach it seems, and
other than some loose stools he hasn't had any problems to speak of.

I'd suggest sticking with just chicken for a week and then experiment
with how well the pup does with new things. Don't add more than one
new thing at a time because if he reacts poorly you won't know what
did it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:

> So are you guys saying that all the advice about feeding only
> chicken for two weeks does not apply to puppies? So I should give
> him tonnes of variety right from the get go, and he won't get sick?

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:56 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Okay, I just read all the old posts on switching a puppy to raw, and
> although I want to say thank you for referring me to the information - now
> I'm slightly smarter and totally confused and freaking out!!!

Simma down now...

>
> So are you guys saying that all the advice about feeding only chicken for
> two weeks does not apply to puppies? So I should give him tonnes of variety
> right from the get go, and he won't get sick?

I start all my pups on variety. Lots of it. They don't have the same meal twice most of
the time. Some days it's chicken, tripe and offal. Other days it's a hunk of goat. Other
days it's cow. Other days it's fish or eggs. Sometimes all of the above on the same
day...almost. :-))
Every day is a new day for the pups and adults alike.
I breed dogs so they've never eaten kibble ever but I have had kibble weaned pups come
to live here and their first meal is raw. I don't make exceptions because his first weeks
were on kibble.
You, on the other hand, can decide what to do however you wish. I think most of us that
raise lots of puppies over the years just automatically just feed them whatever the adults
are eating only in appropriate puppy sizes. Sometimes ground for tiny pups or in slivers,
chunks, scraped or whole pieces.

> I know I'm totally hyperventilating, and my little boy isn't actually coming
> home for almost three more weeks, but... Yikes!!! Help!!! I want to
> introduce my baby to as much wonderful nutritious variety as I can, but I
> don't want to make him sick!!!

You need to relax and stop working yourself up. It's not rocket science. Feeding pups is
easy. No pieces big enough to choke on. Grind if you are unsure. Chop or sliver some
items.
Great fish for little guys is smelts. Easy to eat and fun.

Don't expect the pup to eat huge amounts either. Raw is very satisfying so feeding 2-3
times a day is all he needs at first and a big hunk of food can keep a pup going for many
hours. Don't expect him to be hungry all the time and don't try and over feed. Just let
him eat what he wants. I offer food and take up any they don't eat. I feed twice a day
to start with then go to once a day when I forget that he's still a pup. ;-))

> I know, I know... If I'm designing his menu three weeks before the kid even
> comes home I need to get a life...

Yep, you do. I live for my dogs too, but you need to calm down and breathe.

No 'designing' menus. Just buy up lots of items and stow them in your freezer. Each
day, take out a few small packages of what you will need the following day.
Each day can be anything you want it to be.

I go to the freezer, stand in the open door and ponder my dogs next day meals. Some
days they are really 'out there' meals and other days are just chicken backs.
For the pups, since they eat 2 times a day (if I remember), they get two different meals.
I like doing boney meals with green tripe.
Organ meals with eggs or tripe.
big old bone days. (whole or half a large animal) Pups can gnaw on those for hours.

Pups just need you to think a bit smaller. If you have some chicken, make sure the bone
is appropriate for a small pup. Ribs are best since they are soft. I either grind for tiny
pups or use chicken necks or backs if I don't have chicken breast bones.
Some little breeds can't chew even chicken so you find something they can. Quail or game
hens would work. More costly though.

But he's gorgeous, and tiny, and counting
> on me to do this right... And this is the first time I've ever fed raw, or
> been the sole guardian of a baby pup...

Hmmm, that would be sole owner wouldn't it.

Thanks in advance for talking me
> down from my little anxiety tree....
>
> Dee, Frankie's completely crazy, overprotective and neurotic mommy....

It's a dog, not a child. It's not a fur baby, it's a dog. Repeat this.

Your pup will thrive on a natural diet. That's what it is. He's a dog and you are going to
be feeding him a species appropriate diet. It's simple and it's easy.
No neurosis necessary. No over protective crazy talk here.

-----> :-))))

Merril

Owner of many dogs, not furbabies. Besides, we have enough crazy people here
according to everyone else. :-))

>

Messages in this topic (9)
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7c. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

Hi Dee,
Merril is exactly right about this not being rocket surgery. There is
no unfixable mistake that you can make feeding raw. But I do hope you
calm down before you get your puppy. Your anxiety will be picked up on
by the puppy and can cause it stress. I also wanted to comment on this
part of Merril's post. Calling yourself the gaurdian of your dog is a
term the Animal Rights groups use. You have less rights pertaining to
your dog as its gaurdian than as its owner. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "merril Woolf" <merril@...>wrote:
But he's gorgeous, and tiny, and counting on me to do this right...
And this is the first time I've ever fed raw, or been the sole
guardian of a baby pup...
>
Hmmm, that would be sole owner wouldn't it.

Messages in this topic (9)
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7d. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

"D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
> although I want to say thank you for referring me to the
information - now
> I'm slightly smarter and totally confused and freaking out!!!
*****
Um, I think freaking out is a somewhat excessive response to
confusion. Stop freaking out.

> So are you guys saying that all the advice about feeding only
chicken for
> two weeks does not apply to puppies? So I should give him tonnes
of variety
> right from the get go, and he won't get sick?
*****
I suppose one of the things that's confusing is there are no
absolutes except raw is better than not raw. I think it's safe to
say if your pup has digestive upset he will not be "sick". He will
have a response to food that you would prefer not to see and
certainly not enjoy cleaning up after. But he will not be sick.
Responding to discomfort by removing the discomfort is healthy.

If loose stools and unexpected emissions distress you, then you
should consider feeding through a couple of chickens until you are
comfortable that your pup is comfortable. There is nothing special
or magic about two weeks (that's an awfully long time for a pup) and
there's nothing special or magic about chicken. Since you have to
start somewhere, chicken and two weeks are as good as anything but
they aren't rules.

If you can calm yourself down enough to go with the flow (literally
and figuratively) you can shorten the chicken sentence or at least
make it more interesting by adding--from quite early on--bits of
other meats; tastes, tidbits, hints, anticipations, expectations,
clues to the future. Yes, introduce the texture of liver right
away. But in teensy amounts. Yes, let the pup sample smidgeons of
beef and lamb and pork.

You will be feeding three, maybe four meals a day. You will have
plenty of opportunity to sneak in these flavors. You will have
ample opportunity to fiddle with the diet. In fact, it is your
responsibility to fiddle with the kid's diet. Adjust as you go
along, and along, and along. Really and truly, after one week (21
to 28 individual meals!)you will be speculating about future meals.
Go for it. But in a teensy way.

> I know I'm totally hyperventilating, and my little boy isn't
actually coming
> home for almost three more weeks, but... Yikes!!! Help!!!
*****
Three weeks is a lotta time to get yourself together.
Hyperventilating is neither attractive nor productive unless you are
a Hollywood starlet with more bosom than brains. It certainly
doesn't help feed a good raw diet. Breathe in, breathe out, relax.

> I know, I know... If I'm designing his menu three weeks before the
kid even
> comes home I need to get a life...
*****
Here's an idea. Design his menu. Design several. Use the list
archives and rawfeddogs.net as guidelines, then post your choices to
the list. I promise you, we will tell you if you've gone off the
deep end and how far.

But he's gorgeous, and tiy, and counting
> on me to do this right... And this is the first time I've ever fed
raw, or
> been the sole guardian of a baby pup.
*****
Yeah, and you're not alone. Nor helpless.

> Dee, Frankie's completely crazy, overprotective and neurotic
mommy....
*****
Not so funny, actually. OTOH, better to get it out of your system
now than implode when the pup comes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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8.1. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Monica...

I'm a newbie here...only been feeding raw and reading/posting on the
lists for a month now...but a had a couple of thoughts.
>
>
>We finally tried adding back some liver yesterday, as I feel organ
>meat is essential to this diet. He had one *tiny* piece (less than
>square - he is 60lbs) and he is back to having an upset tummy

OK..I know this list doesn't normally recommend it for the average
raw fed dog, but maybe you can try cod liver oil? BECAUSE your dog
can't tolerate whole liver, and BECAUSE it is such a nutrient-rich
important organ...maybe this is actually a case that warrants it.
I'm not suggesting you indiscrimately pour it over your dog's food,
but since he is SO sensitive why not start with a teeny tiny drop on
his food and then gradually and slowly increase to a few drops over
time? You don't want to feed so much that you cause toxicity, but at
least he will get some of the nutrition he is lacking in a liver-fed
diet.

> I do not expect medical diagnosis, but I cannot believe that no one
> will just flat out tell me if it is HEALTHY or not to keep a dog
> strictly on poultry with no organ meat, fish, rabbit etc. For Gods
> sake, if its not healthy then just say it.

I think that we get a lot of recommendations on this list about
what "should" comprise a healthy, balanced, species-appropriate
diet...but no one actually *knows* for sure. I'm going to suggest
you look at it differently. Rabbit, goat, pork are not HEALTHY foods
for YOUR dog. In fact, they make him sick. In a perfect world we
should try to feed this variety...but you are not dealing with a
perfect scenario. So just stick with what works for YOUR dog...and
let the rest of those "shoulds" go. You have been an amazing,
responsible guardian of your dog. You have never vaccinated, you go
great lengths to feed a raw diet he can tolerate---just trust that
that is enough. I say this because I am a human who has many, many
food sensitivities, intolerances, and allergies. I'm constantly hit
with a barrage of media about superfoods...eat this or that to live a
long life. At first it drove me nuts...but then I came to this
acceptance that these foods are just not for me. They are not super-
foods for me....they are they opposite--they make me sick. And I
decided to just work with what is within my control--the foods I CAN
tolerate--and make the best choices for me and the biology I was born
with. Hope that helps!

>
> So many of you take such a high-brow, sarcastic tone with newbies
> trying to do right by their dog by EVEN seeking information on
> rawfeeding while so many here are very good at making many of them
> feel stupid. Where are the opinions when a long time (4yr poster)
> needs help?

When I first joined this list it was intimidating and I honestly felt
that some of the posts were unnecessarily harsh. I wanted to run,
but I stayed because there is such a wealth of info on the list.
Soon I began to see that they overwhelming majority of posts were
supportive and helpful. And then I began to see that even though
some of the posters have a style that is strong, sarcastic, or tell-
it-like-it-is, that underlying that style is a caring, committed,
passionate, knowledgeable person doing a whole lot of service on this
list. As a 4 year poster, I would suspect that's part of the reason
you have stuck around. Just hang onto that and trust that the people
here are doing their best with the best intentions.

I will keep you and your dog in my thoughts and prayers.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (28)
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8.2. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

Hi Monica,

I'm another who has no expertise along this line but my heart goes
out to you & Loki.

Given I don't know squat about the disease, I would go and join
several of the pancreatic groups on Yahoo.

I checked last night and they seem to have some information on diet
and such that might be helpful to you if you haven't already checked
them out?

Did your vet give you a pancreatic enzyme? I know, from what I''ve
been reading that they have to have that and also should be fed
several small meals everyday instead of one. If you already know all
this, I'm sorry for posting it again, but just trying to help what
little I can.

Have you thought about feeding deer or wild game? I know they are
much leaner meats than what we get at the store.

I read an article lately that said a pack of wolves were surviving on
mainly a whole fish diet. Scientists said they were surprised that
was their main food supply and they were thriving.

So, I would say if you find one animal that is OK for Loki, I would
try feeding all the parts to him from that animal only and see if he
can handle it over time...........

Personally I do think you could feed one single animal,prey style,
and keep your dog healthy. You might have to supplement with
different vitamins or minerals but not sure what ones would be best
for him.
I also know lots of people try feeding the raw pancreas to pancreatic
dogs too, if you haven't tried that yet....

I don't know if this helps any, as I said I don't know a lot about
the disease, except what I've read and my heart really goes out to
you, as I've had my share with a dog this year too.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Monica" <mommyof2gals@...> wrote:

> I do not expect medical diagnosis, but I cannot believe that no one
> will just flat out tell me if it is HEALTHY or not to keep a dog
> strictly on poultry with no organ meat, fish, rabbit etc. For Gods
> sake, if its not healthy then just say it. I'm sure other committed
> rawfeeders will not turn away when their pets are thriving. And if
> one or two who are on the fence walk away from the prospect, then
so be it.

> Frustrated and tired of the silence
> Monica and Loki

Messages in this topic (28)
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9. My Intro with a question of actual barfing/vomit (sorry=)
Posted by: "GoldenGirlAldi" aldona99@yahoo.com aldona99
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

Hello Fellow Raw-Feeders! :-)

My name is Aldona, born and raised in the good ole USA, Rochester, NY. I currently live in Germany, smack in the middle, I do believe...

I've had a few years experience of feeding our dogs the more natural way, and have done my studies, and plenty of research... things have changed since then, due to illness, family distress and other things, and we did less raw, and ended up getting a diet kibble. Not proud of it, but hey, I was going through a real tough time, and I wish I had some support back then. Anyway, things have gotten better, and just a bit easier, oh, and the family constellation has also changed since "then".

We now have Sheldon, our Sheltie girl, almost 8 yrs., and Marley, Golden Retriever pup, 13 Weeks old this Saturday. Since I've always been a great fan and advocate of raw feeding, bringing Marley into our family is helping me get back onto track, but I'm still a bit unsure of myself. For instance if I'm giving him enough foods, or not enough... I tried first with chicken wings, but found that he threw the bigger bones up in the middle of the night, so now I put them through the meat grinder first.

This morning I gave him some lamb meat with bits of everything else, and I think it might have been a wee bit too cold. Anyway, he ended up throwing that up, plus some! Either he is getting too much, or it was too cold for his stomach. I usually give him some oatmeal with oil, bee pollen, honey and milk, but I forgot to prepare it last night, so I gave him the meat instead.

Now he's gnawing on a turkey carcass. He acts like such a novice, compared to the golden retrievers I used to have, and it's amazing the way it was so easy to get our litter pups to eat raw meats and bones.

I'm really getting alot of information from the postings here so far, and look forward to learning more°!

Golden Greetings,
Aldona Guenter, Germany.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

I dont' recommend chemical treatment from a vet tho; DE works great for
worms.

http://blackkatherbs.com/pets.htm

Put a teaspoon in their food daily (or 2 depending on the size of your pup)
for about 3 weeks and it naturally kills the worms by breaking their bodies
open and they die.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. ADMIN/Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

What is there about OFF TOPIC that is so difficult to understand? We
have already determined that worms are not a result of raw meat. We
have already determined that worming is off toic for this list.

So no more, okay?
No more worming cures. Not one. None. Zero.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Smelts
Posted by: "raffiangel2" snazgal@aol.com raffiangel2
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

I found frozen smelts...bought a bag, rushed home all excited to see my
furries delighting in their new found treasure.....
Zip!!! nada!!! sniffed, pushed it around the floor and walked away....
Anyone have any experiences with Smelts?? ideas?
Probably not really worthy of worrying about...was a snack/treat not a
meal...
Info on Smelts please??

Phyllis in Delray

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:27 am ((PDT))

"raffiangel2" <snazgal@...> wrote:
> Anyone have any experiences with Smelts?? ideas?
*****
My dogs won't eat it and my cat won't eat it. I don't buy it. If it
doesn't work and you don't care, don't pursue it. If it doesn't work
and you really want it to, keep trying.

Try it frozen, try a different source, try it dressed. Give it a few
months' break and try it. Unless you are starved for protein variety,
it's not worth it, IMO.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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12.1. Re: Now what?
Posted by: "dancingbarefoot_11" dancingbarefoot_11@yahoo.com dancingbarefoot_11
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

> Lay off any flea preventives, HW meds, vaccines,

I new to the group and just wanted to clarify something. Do you think
that people should not give their dogs hw preventitive or just in this
case? and what's your view on vaccines? I think the vet industry goes
WAY over board on the vaccine frequencies.

Kris

Messages in this topic (28)
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