Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Dogs losing weight

On Jun 17, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Mary wrote:

> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***
>
>
>
> "Do you skin or cut fat off? If so, quit! If not, and they're willing
> to eat what you give them, just feed them more. "
>
> No, I don't cut the fat off. I've tried feeding more but my
> Crested throws up a foamy substance when he's had more than he can
> eat and the Dobe just won't eat as often as I put food down, (twice
> a day).
>
> I live on a farm and the dogs get lots of exercise. Increasing
> intake is the logical thing to do, haven't found it to work though
> for the above reasons.
>
> Mary

In that case, I would take another good look at their weight. Most
dogs are way too fat on kibble - the carbs force the body to hold
water in the cells, and the sugars easily metabolize in to energy and
leave the fat and protein to be stored as body fat. Besides, many
dogs overeat kibble, because of the poor nutrition - their bodies are
screaming for nutrients and so they slam down everything they can,
searching for it, not unlike disadvantaged people everywhere.
Virtually ALL dogs, except for the true hardship starvation cases,
will lose unneeded weight when allowed to eat raw. It could be that
your perception of their ideal condition is skewed by the customary
fat dogs. They know more than you about how much to eat, perhaps.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Re: [rawfeeding] Feeding bloat dog and treating it and preventing it!

Trish, IMHO
I have a female HC wolfdog that got a BAD leg injury
she had to lay down while she was eating.
Isisbluemoon bloated her stomach was hard and big.
I gave her Gas-X and Tranq'd her
so she would relaxs.
I stayed up all night and laid with her rubbing
her tummy it wasn't long she started passing Gas
and her tummy went down she was 7 months old
and she has never had it happen again she is 4 yrs old now:-)
Maybe I just got lucky.
Vet they said surgery was only choice and it would cost $3000.00. By the way my friend had female HC wolfdog
that bloated while she was gone for just the day when she got home she was dead. The vet said it is a horrible death!:-(
She had for the first time feed raw and kibble together and it was VERY hot and she drinked alot that morning.
The animal was 6 yrs old and never had a problem till that day!
Great Dane's they say to feed them up high so they don't suck in alot of air during eating and bloat what my vet said to me yrs ago when I had 6 beautiful Great Dane's of all colors.
Yes I feed kibble then:-( They all lived till around the age of 8 and 9 yrs old:-( I still miss them. I wonder if I would of fed raw then if they would of lived longer?
Charlene

Trish,
What were you feeding him when he bloated?
Jeni

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Re: [rawfeeding] Feeding bloat dog

Natural turkey breast. He probably ate about 4lbs or so of a 6lb turkey
breast.

Trish

----- Original Message -----
From: "John and Jeni Blackmon" <jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net>

> Trish,
> What were you feeding him when he bloated?
> Jeni
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: Dogs losing weight

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
>
> I have had my dogs on the raw diet for 4 weeks now and my Dobe and
Chinese
> Crested have lost weight since the start of the diet. I am feeding
the 2-3%
> of their total body weight on a daily basis, sometimes more. The
variety is
> usually beef, chicken and pork with some lamb and organ meat. Raw
meaty
> bones are included too.
>
> Neither dog can afford to lose any more weight, any suggestions?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Mary Smallwood
>

Mary,
I would forget 2-3% anything and feed until they cant eat anymore, I
have a dobe that gorges 5 lbs of meat in one feeding, but then wont
eat for 24 hrs after that..he weighs a slim 75 lbs..forget the
word "diet"...feed em till they just want to lay around and sleep.

Fastwater

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Re: [rawfeeding] Feeding bloat dog

Trish,
What were you feeding him when he bloated?
Jeni

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[rawfeeding] Re: Pork, Beef and other soft bones

Hi Jill,

How big is your dog?

Bone-in beef is good for a workout and some dental hygiene, but the
bones are too hard/dense and can be teeth breakers, so you'll want to
remove the bones after they've gotten the meat off and they're
gnawing away (before they crack a tooth or wear them down too
much!). Most pork is probably good, but depends on your dog (maybe
some small dogs won't be able to eat all of the bones?). Ribs in
slabs/spareribs should be pretty easy to find. You might also find
some pork necks--some are not meaty, so you can look for meaty ones
and/or add meat to them. I get the best ones at an Asian market.
You can also look for lamb or goat. Goat is at the Asian markets and
the bones are very edible. Lamb is usually more expensive, but maybe
you can find a good source. Oh, and what about turkey?! All turkey
bones are probably edible for your dog.

Laurie

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Dogs losing weight

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

"Do you skin or cut fat off? If so, quit! If not, and they're willing
to eat what you give them, just feed them more. "

No, I don't cut the fat off. I've tried feeding more but my Crested throws up a foamy substance when he's had more than he can eat and the Dobe just won't eat as often as I put food down, (twice a day).

I live on a farm and the dogs get lots of exercise. Increasing intake is the logical thing to do, haven't found it to work though for the above reasons.

Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: c_lindaberry
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:20 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Dogs losing weight

> I have had my dogs on the raw diet for 4 weeks now and my Dobe and
Chinese
> Crested have lost weight since the start of the diet. I am feeding
the 2-3%
> of their total body weight on a daily basis, sometimes more. The
variety is
> usually beef, chicken and pork with some lamb and organ meat. Raw
meaty
> bones are included too.
> Neither dog can afford to lose any more weight, any suggestions?

Do you skin or cut fat off? If so, quit! If not, and they're willing
to eat what you give them, just feed them more. I've been giving my
female GSD closer to 4-5% of her ideal weight everyday to get her to
gain weight, in addition to giving her the fattier cuts I've got
around. 2-3% is just an average, for dogs with a higher activity
level, a higher metabolism, or both, you have to increase the amount.
Same food, just more of it.

Crystal and the Zoo

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Bones & Broken Teeth

Thank you.
Theresa

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[rawfeeding] Re: When you forget to defrost...

Hi, Tegan!
Ditto to all of the above- 'cept I don't usually feed eggs, never feed
canned 'dog meat', and have canned mackerel and sardines in the
cupboard as well as salmon.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> > Just wondering what you guys feed when you forget to defrost a meal?

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[rawfeeding] nasty emails

this is an email that was privately sent to me from a local group I am in....

"I Looked it up, too. and there are many risks in feeding raw meat to pets. I would advise reading both sides of the argument, not just the ones in favor of it.

the meats we buy are processed. what wild animals eat contains things we don't find in our stores - things that would help a wild animal digest the raw meat, as well as to resist certain bacteria and parasites.

to say that vets are just trying to sell a commercial product is oversimplifying. they may make money pushing one brand over another, but the people who started the raw meat fad can be just as agenda - driven. (selling books and other products, promoting websites, etc)

for your pet's sake, keep an open mind and look at both sides of the argument.

BIG$@*)8@AOL.COM wrote:
_http://alt4animals.com/nutrition_safety.htm_

(http://alt4animals.com/nutrition_safety.htm)
here's a sight I found on this... Personally I am not going to feed my pets
raw meets tho"

I have so many people now telling me I am doing the WRONG thing letting my dogs eat raw meat and especially the raw chicken bones. Did you get this reaction when you started?

Laura
Proud Mommy to Miss Samantha (9 years old going on 16! LOL!!) and step mom to Heather -17, Nikki - 14 and Michelle - 8 - the most beautiful girls in the world!!!!!
Mom to furbabies: Snoopy (male - neutered - 9 month old - pit mix - 60lbs.) and Zoey (super smart deaf female - spayed - 5 month old - pit mix - approx. 30lbs.)

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[rawfeeding] Re: Thanks for all the advise.

"clittleidiot" <karen@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the advise. The specialist I'm seeing is a raw diet
> prey model nutritionist. They recommended her for from the raw
diet
> semminar that I attended. But if it's not needed then I won't go,
*****
Well heck. If you can afford the visit, go. I really want to know
who this person is and what her schtick is.

Get all the info you can from her and bring it back to this list and
do a core dump so we can find out how prey model nutritionists do
it. If she's laid on you a lot of good stuff, then you've found a
resource indeed. If she's gone off into the weeds, we can help you
find a simpler way. I am curious. Especially on your dime!

I understand the meat and organ part, but how do you even
> attemp to measure out bone.
*****
Questions to ask yourself when evaluating a body part: can I see the
bone beneath the meat? How much bone can I see beneath the meat? If
the bone is big, is the meat around the bone bigger? If the bone is
big but mostly inedible, is there enough meat to meet the challenge
of the bone that IS edible?

Another question to ask yourself: am I overthinking this?

Just give them whats in the meat and let
> them have the whole bone or is that too much.
*****
This is fine. If the whole bone is too much, take it away when they
think/you think enough's been eaten--or let the whole bone be eaten
and feed several subsquent boneless meals to, um, flesh everything
out.

The seminar suggested
> to us 5% kidney and then 5% other organ too.
*****
I would not necessarily trade liver for kidney. If I were forced to
commit to one and only one organ, it would be liver (plus heart but
we count that as muscle meat so it's not cheating). 3%-5% of the
diet as liver and another similar percent as other internal organs is
fine, and that's big picture, not necessarily day or day or week to
week or even month to month.

Plus I'm not sure when
> to even feed my dogs. They are on different schedules all the
time.
> and they get feed twice a day now. And they know when its their
food
> time, they remind me everyday. Cause aren't you suppost to feed
> only once a day.
*****
A mandatory once a day is no more natural than a mandatory twice a
day--regardless of what you've previously taught your dogs to
believe. That said, you can and should feed your dogs when it makes
the most sense for them, given their busy schedules.

There is no reason to feed by the clock! Feed in the morning, feed
at night, feed midday if that's when there's enough time. Feed once a
day when you can, twice a day when it makes sense to do so, don't be
afraid to skip a day entirely.

And how
> long on average does it take for them to eat?
*****
Depends on the dog and the meal. That's another thing than is
totally open to flexibility. Some meals can be small and quick, some
can be complicated and slow and your dogs can luxuriate with their
good fortune. Feed what, when and where you have time to do it.

Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Just fed first raw meal-Impressed! ( but have questions)

Thanks! Sounds good to me. The organs are included when you buy
whole chickens, right? (Sorry, I'm vegetarian and don't really know a
lot about meats!) So, when I start feeding cut up whole chicken, the
organs will be included... Is a whole chicken boney enough to
compensate for the introduction of organs, or should I add extra bone?

I worried so much about switching, but I get it now. The light bulb
went off when I saw him chowing down on the meat. It's so simple and
natural, I don't know why I felt the need to make it so complex. I
guess it's just because I am human. ;-)

Nothing has come out the other end yet... I'm anxious to see his next
poop... As weird as that sounds to say!

> Melissa,
> Congrats on starting raw feeding!
> My suggestion would be to add some chicken liver next and see how your
> dog takes to that. Since organs are so rich you may want to consider
> introducing it with a boney meal. For the supps. I see no problem with
> those, you probably won't need the probiotics after a couple weeks.
> Maybe just take them out if you think your dog is having some
> digestive upset.
> -Liz
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: cleaver

yassy wrote:

> Do you have any recomended cleaver?
> And,to cut up whole Turkey,do you use kitchen scissors or cleaver?Which do you use?
> I know for chicken,I use scossors though.

I've been using kitchen shears from Sam's Club (Chef Shears Titanium Blades -
3 pk./ 8 in. for $15) and a couple of Santoku knives, but I'm looking for
something with a sturdier blade. I prefer tools that I feel I have close
control, so a cleaver didn't really work for me.

Sam's Club also has, online only, "Japanese Cow Knife" and a "Japanese Meat
Specialist Knife," both in 6-packs. Wonder how those are . . .

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding is not complicated

"fstwrtr2000" <fstwrtr2000@...> wrote:
fish should not be a staple, but
> should be fed once a week.
*****
Fish can be a staple; it should not be the only protein source long
term but it certainly can stand tall as one of several protein
sources.

However, there's no "should" to fish. If one doesn't want to feed it
or can't find fish worth feeding or forgets to feed fish (that would be
me) it is no big deal. Just as one's dogs can go through life without
eating chicken, they can also skip the fish without repercussions.

Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Does someone raise guinea pigs for meat?

I´ve just gotten into raising guinea pigs. I´m planning to include
them into my dog´s diet. I´m curious if someone else has experience of
raising guinea pigs for meat production? Please, share your knowledge!

/Kristina

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[rawfeeding] Re: Pigs feet

woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@...> wrote:
> Sadly that's the case for us humans too. :( Bad Donuts!
*****
Humph. You must not read the fine print. Donuts with holes have no
calories; EVERYone knows the calories amass in the center: no center,
no calories.

>I was thinking pigs feet might be a nice
> distraction for the two younger dogs, whom I'm trying to feed once
a
> day, while my 12yo is eating her dinner since she's fed twice a day.
*****
Yes, they are.

Or you could simply tell the younger dogs to get over it while the
senior is eating. Or, if you want to be nicer than I am, you could
separate the young 'uns from the old gal and allow her to eat in
peace.

When I was feeding two seniors, I fed them first, then the others.
Nobody got annoyed enough to leave home.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Pork, Beef and other soft bones

For the last month or so my dogs have been eating mainly chicken
quarters, bone in chicken breast and a tiny bit of liver. I have added
beef heart and some pork shoulder/picnic, but not really any other
bones besides the chicken. Someone suggested pork ribs (not the
country style) but all I seem to find are the country style, and I'm
not sure what type of beef w/ bones I should be looking for. I would
like to transition their diet more towards other meats, but I just
don't know what to look for or ask for. I have two dogs who each eat
about 1# a day. Thanks for your help.
Jill W

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: cleaver

For poultry and large pieces of meat like liver I use the TWIN® Deluxe
Poultry Shears Serrated Edge by J.A Henckels. They cost about $45.00 and last a
very long time with almost constant use. I got mine at Williams-Sonoma but
here is the official company website:
_http://usa.jahenckels.com/index.php?item=305_ (http://usa.jahenckels.com/index.php?item=305)

I use them for Norman's meats and for our meats (for us human assistants to
the dog).

I have a cleaver also but tend to use these more. Just me.

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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[rawfeeding] Re: Thanks for all the advise.

Karen, I agree with the others. The nutritionist may know what she's talking about, but
often that isn't the case. More importantly, you have a great resource right here to talk
about the best way to feed your dogs, and we don't charge!

> I know that they need 2% of their weight, and 80% meat, 10% organ and 10%
> bone. I understand the meat and organ part, but how do you even
> attemp to measure out bone.

It really isn't as difficult as it sounds. The ratios come from average values from prey
animals. Some animals will be heavier on bone than others, but it eventually balances out.
You really want to keep in mind "lots of meat." If you are feeding a part with bone, you
want it covered with meat, as in, where's the bone? If you can see the bone, you probably
want to add more meat to the meal.

> The seminar suggested to us 5% kidney and then 5% other organ too.

Are you sure that they didn't say liver? Liver is a really nutritious organ and it's pretty big
in comparison to other organs, so we try to make sure we feed liver, and rotate in other
organs as we get them.

> Plus I'm not sure when to even feed my dogs. They are on different schedules all the
> time. and they get feed twice a day now. And they know when its their food
> time, they remind me everyday.

The best thing for all of you is to mix up the feeding schedule. Feed them when you get
around to it, that way they don't feel that they need to "remind" you that it's time to eat. It
might be hard at first, but you'll all be happier.

> And how long on average does it take for them to eat?

It varies dog by dog. My GSP pup eats pretty slowly, so he'll eat for about 30 minutes at a
time. My Newf mix puppy was a stray, so he gulped his food at first - it took him about 3
minutes to eat a chicken quarter. I feed him frozen to slow him down, and now he's up to
about 15 minutes.

Good luck!
Andrea

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[rawfeeding] catfish ok?

just want to wish all the raw feeders who are fathers a happy fathers
day!! on to my question, i was wondering would it be ok to feed my 6
month apbt catfish? my brother went fishing last night and he caught a
large amount of catfish, and is bringing me five for my pup. if anyone
can help me out on this one, much appreciated.

Anthony Rodriguez

California

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[rawfeeding] Re: cleaver

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE GET INTO THE HABIT OF TRIMMING YOUR MESSAGES.***

I picked up an inexpensive cleaver at target for around 10-$12.

This gets used a lot but really want a better quality and will be
spending around $60 when I buy my next one.

I use it for whole chickens and a 23 pound turkey :)

Maggie, Rufus and Oliver (Danes)
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,everybody.
>
> Do you have any recomended cleaver?
>
> And,to cut up whole Turkey,do you use kitchen scissors or cleaver?
Which do you use?
>
> I know for chicken,I use scossors though.
>
> yassy
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Building a website is a piece of cake.
> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: cleaver

Yassy,

I use both a cleaver and poultry shears. Though I admit I prefer the
cleaver. It is fun and gets some frustration out! I have a Wusthof
Cleaver square handle. It ran me about $130. Its super nice tho!
Poultry shears from target for about $15.

Brian & Sampson

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,everybody.
>
> Do you have any recomended cleaver?
>
> And,to cut up whole Turkey,do you use kitchen scissors or cleaver?
Which do you use?
>
> I know for chicken,I use scossors though.
>
> yassy

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[rawfeeding] Re: Feeding boneless meat

"gr8dnrsq" <gr8dnrsq@...> wrote:
>
> Im having a difficult time finding boneless meat thats isnt under
> $2/lb. I can get plenty of ground w/bone
*****
Where have you been looking for cheap eats? Shopping around will help
stretch your budget. Additionally, clever savings on sale chicken or
pork shoulder or turkey will often free up enough money to buy beef
when it's close to being under two bucks. You don't say where you (and
that can make a huge difference) but I can usually find beef and always
find pork under two bucks. Beef heart--typically under two bucks--
would be a terrific way to get boneless meat into your dog.

> My question is if I feed ground w/bone in the am and say a chicken
leg
> qtr in the eve, isnt that too much bone?
*****
In most cases, ground with bone contains too much bone for regular
inclusion on a menu. It would not be surprising to find that your
ground product contains 50% bone; more than that even is not uncommon.

A chicken quarter is also more generous with consumable bone than your
dog needs on a regular basis. So building a diet on lots of bone for
one meal and then more bone as the second meal is not such a great
idea, long term. For some dogs that much daily bone would be nothing
but constipation city.

If you are feeding twice a day and your edible bone options are either
chicken quarters or ground meat/bone, it would be better for your dog
to eat one or the other, per day. But not both.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] cleaver

Hi,everybody.

Do you have any recomended cleaver?

And,to cut up whole Turkey,do you use kitchen scissors or cleaver?Which do you use?

I know for chicken,I use scossors though.

yassy

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[rawfeeding] Re: When you forget to defrost...

"Tegan Whalan" <macdogald@...> wrote:

> Just wondering what you guys feed when you forget to defrost a meal?
*****
Normally if I forget to defrost a meal, the dogs don't eat that day.

If for some reason a meal is indicated (age, health issues) I either
feed canned salmon or (if I have money/time) get a couple chickens from
the store.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Thanks for all the advise.

Thanks for all the advise. The specialist I'm seeing is a raw diet
prey model nutritionist. They recommended her for from the raw diet
semminar that I attended. But if it's not needed then I won't go, I
really just wanted to sit down with someone and talk about the proper
meal care for my 2 active dogs. This is a huge switch for me. My
mother even thinks I'm going over board, and she used to
professionally show and groom dogs. She thinks that the all nature
organic no soy, wheat or corn food that I'm feeding is just fine.
Plus I was suckered in once apon a time that Science Diet was the
best, and I use to highy recommend it. Now of course I don't, I
haven't feed it for years, but that was due to raising 7 guide dog
puppies for Guide Dogs for the Blind, and they state that they've
done all these studies, and you would think they would want whats
best for their long term service dogs.
I just don't know how to really start my dogs, and on what. I know
that they need 2% of their weight, and 80% meat, 10% organ and 10%
bone. I understand the meat and organ part, but how do you even
attemp to measure out bone. Just give them whats in the meat and let
them have the whole bone or is that too much. The seminar suggested
to us 5% kidney and then 5% other organ too. Plus I'm not sure when
to even feed my dogs. They are on different schedules all the time.
and they get feed twice a day now. And they know when its their food
time, they remind me everyday. Cause aren't you suppost to feed
only once a day. And then let them have 2-3 hours rest. And how
long on average does it take for them to eat?
My Lab has agility practice Mon. Wed. Fri. Mornings and then flyball
Wed & Sun. nights. Plus we hike or go for a walk/jog every night
besides flyball nights. The Jack Russell is learning obedience right
now so she can behave at agility and flyball and I hope she will
start at least agility really soon. Plus she goes for a walk every
day/night too. So would the best time to feed the dogs be in the mid-
day do to their active schedules, and how long do they need to be
able to rest? Thanks for all the help. Just be prepared we have
tons more questions.
Thanks
Karen

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Kidney problems

My Chow/Sheltie mix has always "sprinkled", a couple of months ago it
got really bad (had to keep him outside because he just couldn't hold
his urine) and he went to the vet. They found protein in his urine and
decided that he needed antibiotics, thought maybe he had a UTI (I don't
remember all of the details, I was out of town at the time and his
co-owner took him in). He did a course of abx, seemed a little bit
better but still sprinkled. I had to put him out at least once an
hour. He wasn't concentrating his urine and the vet was, I guess,
talking about urine cultures. I looked into it, the symptoms seemed to
point to kidney problems. I haven't taken him back for more tests and
have since started him on a raw diet. Besides the clean teeth and more
energy, his sprinkling has almost disappeared. I don't have anything to
contribute it to besides diet change. I don't know what the
mechanics/reasoning is behind it, but I'm willing to accept the results.. :)

Virginia in Milwaukee

Lynn Sykes wrote:
> I went through that with my Springer last year, was not concentrating her
> urine, she did have a bladder infection that cleared up but was on
> antibiotics for over a month straight after a couple of ten day rounds
> several months before that. .I was told she was in early kidney failure.
<snip>

> With the raw diet she regained her spirit, she was listless a bit while
> sick. We do battle the incontience issue though at times. I'm not sure why
> it gets worse at different times than others but we've been feeding more
> chicken than we had.

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[rawfeeding] Re: When you forget to defrost...

During the summer months, Geiger would prefer to eat his meals frozen. The cats, however,
refuse all frozen foods, so I either put a kitty sized bag in a bath of running water, or I feed
them some canned tuna.

Andrea

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[rawfeeding] Re: When you forget to defrost...

"Tegan Whalan" <macdogald@...> wrote:

> Just wondering what you guys feed when you forget to defrost a meal?

Nothing.

Or a couple eggs.

Or a frozen hunk of whatever.

Or something I bought for myself that I'm not particularly enthused
about eating. This used to happen with chicken thighs; just this week
it happened with some liver I bought just before expiration & then
forgot about.

Or nothing.

I mostly keep a lot of "dog food" in the fridge -- probably 5-10# at
any given time, which is 3-6 days of food for my dog -- and just add
to it as it runs out. So I rarely have this no-food situation.

-- sandy & griffin

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[rawfeeding] Re: Feeding bloat dog

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid" <iar2@...> wrote:
>
>
> This is probably getting a little off-topic, but if you are referring
> to the Purdue study, the elevated dishes thing is highly suggestive
as
> 'spurious correlation' - meaning that the majority of the owners
> surveyed were owners of breeds predisposed to bloat and the majority
> of them used raised feeders.

*** Why yes, I was referring to the Purdue study. I have said
previously that it can be argued that those studies are all pretty
much complete bs. However, think about why all those owners were
feeding from elevated dishes. It was because previous studies had
suggested that feeding off the floor was a risk factor and feeding
from elevated dishes would prevent bloat. The study to which you
refer, whether or no it is spurious correlation, at least showed that
feeding from elevated dishes did not lessen the chance of bloat,
whether or not it proved that elevated dishes increased such chances.
Statistically, it did show that elevated dishes increased bloat risk,
though we can argue about the degree of statistical significance.

As Chris has been saying, we cannot do anything about the biggest risk
factors, so instead we do all sorts of other behaviors (best described
as superstitious) in an attempt to appease the Bloat God and turn His
attention away from our dogs. Some of these behaviors are harmless
(limiting exercise for x hours after a meal), others, I think, are to
the detriment of our dogs (feeding multiple small meals a day to big
dogs designed to eat large infrequent meals).

And, for any given behavior, I can find a person who claims her dogs
have never bloated because of that behavior, and I can find another
person who claims her dogs bloated even though she conducted the
ritual behavior religiously. So, rather than focus on minimizing the
risk of bloat, I choose to focus on maximizing the health of my dogs.

--Carrie

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[rawfeeding] Re: Just fed first raw meal-Impressed! ( but have questions)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mwood8402" <mwood8402@...> wrote:
>
> I just gave Kai, my Shetland Sheepdog with IBD, his first raw meal
> today... Then the next step would be to add organs,
> right? Or would it be better to add another protein?
> I also stopped feeding the myriad of supplements and am now only
> giving fish oil and probiotics. Does everyone think that will be
> okay?
> -Melissa W
>

Melissa,
Congrats on starting raw feeding!
My suggestion would be to add some chicken liver next and see how your
dog takes to that. Since organs are so rich you may want to consider
introducing it with a boney meal. For the supps. I see no problem with
those, you probably won't need the probiotics after a couple weeks.
Maybe just take them out if you think your dog is having some
digestive upset.
-Liz

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[rawfeeding] Re: Bones & Broken Teeth

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Theresa <bluerose4109@...> wrote:
>
> ++++Mod note: please sign all emails ++++++++++++
>
>
> I am just investigating feeding raw and I too am concerned about
bacteria like salmonella, e coli and others. How do you protect your
dogs from these things?
>
Hi,
You never have to protect your dog from these things, however you must
protect yourself from these things. Remember, dogs are carnivores
capable of eating cat crap, road kill, their own feces, licking their
behinds, etc, and they have amazingly powerful defenses against
bacteria. Salmonella and E Coli can also be found on pigs ears and raw
hides, yet even kibble-fed dogs with weak stomachs (from eating
processed foods) can still handle this. Dogs' hydrochloric acids are
100 times stronger than ours! That is their best defense. Also, their
gut is very short and smooth to allow for quick passage of raw foods,
which also helps aid in eliminating toxins and bacteria efficiently.
-Liz

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[rawfeeding] Re: picky dog

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gonzagirl" <gonzagirl@...> wrote:
>
> My dog only wants to eat sardines in oil, canned salmon/mackerel,
beef
> heart, steak, cooked cow kidney, chicken thighs/legs, and canned
green
> tripe. Before she would would eat a good variety. Can she survive
on
> this? She really loves the fish. So, I give her some with what ever
I
> am feeding. I also, went back to offering her solid gold kibble
with
> the fish, but she only eats a few pieces of the kibble. Which is
fine,
> I just added it becuase we are moving now, and they had low energy,
but
> I figured out the low energy was from the heat because as soon as
it
> cooled down they both went back to normal. The one who has become a
> picky eater is my worry now. I have tried many diffrent things to
get
> her to eat a bigger variety, so I would like to know can I just
feed
> her the stuff I mentioned above? She seems fine to me just eating
that.
> Cyndi

I just wanted to add she just all of a sudden decided she does not
like lamb or venison anymore no matter the cut of meat? Also, the
puppy does not eat it with much enthusiasim. Can I add solid gold
seameal supplement to make up for the lack of variety? Cyndi
>

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Feeding bloat dog

Ingrid...
Thank you for stating much more eloquently than I exactly what I was trying to say!! I was not trying to say that dogs have systems anything like ours and am glad that you realized that. Well stated!!!

Katrina Waldrip
Outrageous Shadow Filas
www.outrageousshadowfilas.com

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Re: [rawfeeding] Pigs feet

Virginia,
I am no expert and am most likely as new at this as are you. Now that I am moving more and more to raw feeding, I do count the pigs feet as part of the 2% - 3% feed count.

Before, I was not feeding raw but all the treats I gave my dogs were raw food such as pigs feet, turkey necks, etc.

Katrina Waldrip
Outrageous Shadow Filas
www.outrageousshadowfilas.com

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11671 5A-When you forget to defrost . . .

What I do, Tegan is just immerse the meat in a hot tap
water bath. When the water cools down from the frozen
meat, add more hot tap water. DO NOT USE BOILING
WATER AND DO NOT DEFROST IN THE MICROWAVE! Both will
cause problems by partially cooking the bones.
(Microwaves heat from the inside out, so the bones are
the first things to cook!)

It usually only takes about 1/2 hour of the hot water
bath to defrost chicken parts.

Barri

5a. When you forget to defrost...
Posted by: "Tegan Whalan" macdogald@gmail.com
nakedfolksinger
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:43 am ((PDT))

Hi guys,

Just wondering what you guys feed when you forget to
defrost a meal?

Barri, Cpl. Seven & Recruit Frodo

http://www.myspace.com/dogmom2

Cpl. "T" guarding The Bridge with Cpls. Brown Dog & Race

http://www.geocities.com/jrtbook4me/COLD_NOSES.html

A Dog Is A Lifetime Committment!

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[rawfeeding] Re: won't eat raw!! help!

++++Mod note: ok guys, you have to sign your emails. The mods get really sick of asking nicely, and eventually your emails just get deleted and never make it through moderation. +++++++++

Thanks Sandee. It just doesn't feel like I'm doing the right thing,
since he's not eating, but he acts like he's been starved for days!
This morning I tried adding garlic powder, but he just licked it and
that's it.... Has anyone else had trouble with switching their dogs?

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[rawfeeding] raw feeding is not complicated

++++Mod note: pls sign your emails with your name +++++++++++

its very simple, but the pet food companies and advertising has turned
feeding your pet real food into an overly complicated, virtually
impossible task, (and of coarse they are the only ones who know how to
do it right)...dogs eat meat, meat walks on four legs, or flys...its
so simple to do...sit down and watch national geographic, and learn
what animals do before, and after they feed...they run to hunt,
gorge, sleep. sometimes they dont eat for a day or 2 ..mimic that and
bingo! you are feeding correctly. fish should not be a staple, but
should be fed once a week.

fstwrtr.

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[rawfeeding] Feeding boneless meat

Im having a difficult time finding boneless meat thats isnt under
$2/lb. I can get plenty of ground w/bone

My question is if I feed ground w/bone in the am and say a chicken leg
qtr in the eve, isnt that too much bone? Im feeding around 1.5lb per
meal

thank you
Lori

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[rawfeeding] Re: When you forget to defrost...

I do this all the time, so now I keep most things in single serving
bags. Items like chicken quarters thaw pretty quickly in warm water
(legs and thighs even quicker!), so would a small hunk of beef heart.
On the other hand, I try and feed bigger and smaller meals, so when I
forget to thaw something for the dogs they're okay if I feed them a
teeny meal. Plus - for real emergencies only - I keep cans of meat only
dog food.

Greta

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[rawfeeding] Just fed first raw meal-Impressed! ( but have questions)

I just gave Kai, my Shetland Sheepdog with IBD, his first raw meal
today. I gave him half of a bone in chicken breast. It went better
than I ever thought it would! He dug in right away and really seemed
to enjoy it. He chewed everything very carefully and didn't have any
problem staying on his mat. He got the idea right away. I but guess
he was born to eat this way, right? ;-) I'm very pleased with how it
went in... hopefully I'll feel the same about the way it goes out.
:-O It was much easier than the crazy home cooked thing. (Which took
me 2-3 hrs to prepare each week.) So I hope it works out.

My plan so far is to give him chicken breasts over the next 2-3 days.
If he seems fine, I'm going to add chicken leg quarters. Next week,
if he is still doing fine, I'm doing to start feeding hunks of cut up
whole chicken. Then, I plan to stick with that for another week to
two to see how he does. Then the next step would be to add organs,
right? Or would it be better to add another protein? I know it's
important to go slow with him because of his condition, so if I see
that he needs longer, I will extend the timeline.

I also stopped feeding the myriad of supplements and am now only
giving fish oil and probiotics. Does everyone think that will be
okay? I also plan to give him two meals a day for a while, but would
like to try to decrease it to one so that I can give him bigger
pieces. I'd love to seem him tear into some "big food" someday, but
we'll see how it goes. ;-)

Thanks to everyone that gave me advice along the way. I'll keep you
updated on how he does. And will probably have more questions. ;-)

-Melissa W

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[rawfeeding] Re: Bones & Broken Teeth

Hi,

a healthy dog copes amazingly well with all sorts of bacteria and
the like.

From all accounts, there's probably more bacteria on your keyboard
right now. So I hope you wash your hands before you touch your dog!

Bacteria is everywhere. Bacteria is essential for both human and
canine digestion, not to mention every other living organism.

I've got pups on the ground right now. I never use disinfectant or
antibacterials around them. They get introduced to raw food around
the 4 week mark. We never ever feed any commercial food.

Let us know what your issues are.

cheers,

Jane
www.bluegrace.com

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[rawfeeding] Re: Re: Confused on feeding Turkey & Pork

I'm no expert but it seems to me the salt in pork is added during the
curing, so raw, unseasoned pork wouldn't be too salty.

Anna

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Pigs feet

> If you continually feed more than the dog can use, the dog will gain
> weight.
> Chris O
>
Sadly that's the case for us humans too. :( Bad Donuts!

Thanks! 3 weeks in and we're still figuring out portions and who gets
fed how many times a day. I was thinking pigs feet might be a nice
distraction for the two younger dogs, whom I'm trying to feed once a
day, while my 12yo is eating her dinner since she's fed twice a day.

Christine

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