Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 16, 2007

Tuesday, October 16, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12168

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Turkey Drums
From: Tina Berry

2a. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: katkellm
2b. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: Michael Moore
2c. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: jennifer_hell

3a. Re: I just joined
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Emu
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4b. Re: Emu
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: pork shoulder
From: kahonebay

6a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: nwworkingdogs@aol.com
6b. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: Scott Baker
6c. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: costrowski75
6d. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Raw feeding info and literature in Spanish?
From: tillandsiausneoides

8. UPDATE ON PRINCESS NALA - THE PARVO PUP
From: dogsofnature

9a. What does GSD stand for?
From: cynthiashankman
9b. Re: What does GSD stand for?
From: MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com

10a. Re: picking out bones
From: mandarini_gg

11a. Beef Question
From: windmilldairy
11b. Re: Beef Question
From: costrowski75

12a. Just switched to raw- question
From: reachpanda
12b. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: katkellm
12c. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. Switching a 12-year-old dog to raw food
From: Yoko
13b. Re: Switching a 12-year-old dog to raw food
From: Carol Dunster

14. Dry aged beef scraps - safe?
From: Margo Farnsworth

Messages
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1a. Re: Turkey Drums
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

I prefer turkey over chicken, but turkey drums although pretty meaty, have a
little too much bone ratio. I feed a 1lb turkey drum with 1lb venison to my
bunch so they get their approx. 10 bone in there to keep their poops
normal. I would recommend buying whole turkeys on sale (or chicken) and cut
the chickens in half - feed a half a chicken with the organs for a meal. I
mostly feed wild game since it's hunting season now, IMO wild game then
turkey are the closest to a natural diet. I don't feed a variety of meats,
I feed venison year round as long as I have it (at least 9 months anyway).
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
Grate one veg/fruit and also to add to meat three times a week.

Hi Kristina,
I have only raised one puppy on raw, my adopted aussie/bc x, so i
thought i would let others who bred reply, but i just wanted to offer
my opinion to this post because i have never, nor would i ever, fed my
puppy or my adult dogs grated veggies or fruit or introduce carbs in
the form of oats. I would like to suggest that before you take that
advice, you read the archives about dogs as carnivores, the finest
post is Giselle's post for factual authenticity,
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402.

Veggies
and fruits are not necessary in you puppy's diet and can actually be
harmful. At the very least, they occupy a seat in the diet that could
be taken by meat. Inappropriate food choices made for a puppy can only
lead to trouble later on. JMO, KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

>>We start our pups on raw from 5 weeks old. We start by giving them ground beef and minced chicken, chicken carcasses with skin and back bone removed, Oats soaked overnight in goats milk, yogurt, honey, veg. <<

Marilyn -- I have to strongly disagree with part of your response to Kristina. I do not believe there is any need for any grains in a puppy's diet -- ever. Not when they are being weaned, not ever. I weaned my Corgi puppies to raw without any grains, just prey model, not even anything ground or minced. I simply ribboned the meat on the bone-in chicken breasts for the first week to give them something to grab onto. I give *no* veggies/fruits as you also recommended, nor is there any reason to, IMO.
I do suggest to Kristina that she feeds her puppy four times daily until about 4 mos., then three times daily until 6 mos. At around 10-12 mos., I will move puppies to once daily feedings. I use chicken to introduce the puppies to raw since the bones are so soft and easily chewed.
But I quickly move onto other proteins. By 7 weeks of age, my pups had eaten venison, elk, beef, pork, fish, eggs, turkey and chicken. I do believe that introducing a variety of foods early is easy and sensible with puppies.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:56 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kristina
>
> We start our pups on raw from 5 weeks old. We start by giving
them ground beef and minced chicken, chicken carcasses with skin and
back bone removed, Oats soaked overnight in goats milk, yogurt, honey,
veg.
>
What makes oats, goat's milk, yogurt, honey and vegetable a species
appropriate part of the diet?

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: I just joined
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Barbara,

Yes, all of those supplements are unnecessary (as well as the yogurt, fruits
& veggies). Seriously, there is not one ingredient in these supplements
that has any benefit to a carnivore...and some that could certainly cause
problems. Dogs are not designed to digest starches, grains, sugars,
soy...they have no requirement for carbohydrates. Flax is not useful to a
carnivore, cod liver oil is merely Vitamins A & D which are fat soluble, can
be overdosed and provided in their diet. Kelp is one thing I surely would
avoid as it can inhibit the thyroid...and it is found in both the Wellness
and Missing Link.

If a dog has a specific need for a specific supplement, by all means use it,
but "just in case" supplements that include everything but the kitchen sink
are not beneficial and a huge waste of money.

Stick with the diet as nature intended...lots and lots of nice red meat, a
little bit of edible bone and some organs. Can't improve on that! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "barbarakaslow" <barbarakaslow@yahoo.com>
I just joined, and I have two Bchon Firses 15, & 8 yr males
who eat the raw diet as well as yogurt, veggies and fruit.
I was wondering about the Missing Link, Wellness supplement
and the flax seed and Cod Liver oils. I have been using those
as well for years now and haven't had a problem, does anyone
else? I just read something online about how they are unnecesary.

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Emu
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:58 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/16/2007 10:51:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

And,I like to ask,where did you get Emu? The other day,I found exotic site
that tellsflavor difference along with retailer page andI posted it ,but they do
not have Emu. Your dog likes it? waht part of Emu is most recommended to
feed?I don't think you can buy whole Emu,I think.

Yassy,

many years ago i had a great source for emu and didn't feed raw.. didn't
realize the gold mine that i had. My dad raised emu, and we started feeding raw
a couple years after he died..

We got emu through our buying group, the buying group bought it from an emu
farm that raised emu for oil. after they butchered the emu and harvested the
fat they sold off all the rest of the animal. we got big hunks of lean meat,
HUGE easy to eat bones, whole necks, whole legs.. now that was a treat. the
dogs LOVED it..

but apparently our emu connection petered out.. we haven't got any in a
couple years and i've mined my freezers all the way to the bottom and i just can't
find any more.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (23)
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4b. Re: Emu
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:51 pm ((PDT))

> apparently our emu connection petered out

Hi,Catherine. If you put EMU is yahoo search,most comes out with result of Emu oil or soap..no meat. Maybe if I lived in Australia,it could have been easier to find farms??

I am always looking new stuff although now the freezer still close to full...so,if anybody know source of Emu in US,and if you shared with us,it will be super

Thanks.

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (23)
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5a. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "kahonebay" kahonebay@yahoo.com kahonebay
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:58 pm ((PDT))

Jim & Sara,
I have two 3-year old GSD's and they LOVE pork picnic shoulder roasts.
I try to purchase large 10+ pound roasts when they are on sale and then
shave off of it until I have it down to a good size meal for my 125LB
male and then he'll get the bone w/meat (about 3lbs). I alternate
between the two (the next time I have a large picnic roast that is
shaved down the other GSD, a 90LB female, gets it and vice versa). It
takes them awhile to get through the bone, but most of the time they do
get through it. Sometimes I find left over bits of the bone (2-3 inch
pieces) in the yard that they didn't finish and I just toss those when
I find them. When they have a good sized meal like that I usually feed
a little light the next couple of days. Good luck!
Kris

> I'm curious about pork shoulders, are the bones in a pork shoulder OK
> for my GSD dog to consume. Would she be able to eat the whole thing?
>
> Thanks,
> Jim & Sara
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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6a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "nwworkingdogs@aol.com" nwworkingdogs@aol.com firegin1
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT))

Turkey is full of an amino acid called L-Tryptophan. There is some in milk
as well. L-Tryptophan makes you sleepy. That's why when we eat turkey and
drink milk at Thanksgiving, we get tired and want to take a nap. Of course,
in my house everyone else takes a nap whilst I end up doing the damned
dishes!!!

Virginia Dunn & the NW Working Dogs Team!
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
The pics are up! Come see all the fun we had at the
NW Working Dogs Expo!
June 1st, 2nd and 3rd at the Clackamas County Fairgrounds.
Then, help us plan for next year!
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
www.NWWorkingDogs.com

**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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6b. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

ummm, this is actually not true. L-Tryptophan does not make you sleepy.
There is the same amount of L-Tryptophan in Chicken as there is in turkey.
People get tired because we fill our guts at thanksgiving lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-tryptophan

Turkey meat and drowsiness

One widely-held urban myth <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_myth> is that
heavy consumption of turkey
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_%28bird%29>meat (as for example
in a
Thanksgiving <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving> feast) results in
drowsiness, which has been attributed to high levels of tryptophan contained
in turkey.[42] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-tryptophan#_note-Helmenstine>
[43] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-tryptophan#_note-howstuffworks>[44]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-tryptophan#_note-McCue>While
turkey does contain high levels of tryptophan, the amount is
comparable to that contained in most other
meats.[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-tryptophan#_note-USDA>Furthermore
postprandial <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postprandial> Thanksgiving
sedation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedation> may have more to do with
what is consumed along with the turkey, and in particular
carbohydrates<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate>,
rather than the turkey itself

On 10/16/07, nwworkingdogs@aol.com <nwworkingdogs@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Turkey is full of an amino acid called L-Tryptophan. There is some in
> milk
> as well. L-Tryptophan makes you sleepy. That's why when we eat turkey and
> drink milk at Thanksgiving, we get tired and want to take a nap. Of
> course,
> in my house everyone else takes a nap whilst I end up doing the damned
> dishes!!!
>
> Virginia Dunn & the NW Working Dogs Team!
> ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> The pics are up! Come see all the fun we had at the
> NW Working Dogs Expo!
> June 1st, 2nd and 3rd at the Clackamas County Fairgrounds.
> Then, help us plan for next year!
> ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> www.NWWorkingDogs.com
> .
>
>
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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6c. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:38 pm ((PDT))

nwworkingdogs@... wrote:
>
> Turkey is full of an amino acid called L-Tryptophan. There is some
in milk
> as well.
*****
It is practically everywhere, including red meat, eggs, fish and
poultry. The amount found in turkey is typical for poultry in
general. For more information, check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan

Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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6d. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:42 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Baker" <scottsbaker@...>
wrote:
>
> ummm, this is actually not true. L-Tryptophan does not make you
sleepy.
> There is the same amount of L-Tryptophan in Chicken as there is in
turkey.
> People get tired because we fill our guts at thanksgiving lol
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-tryptophan
*****
Oops!
Sorry to walk all over your post, Scott.
I shoulda read first.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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7a. Re: Raw feeding info and literature in Spanish?
Posted by: "tillandsiausneoides" amwagner@botany.ufl.edu tillandsiausneoides
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone suggest a good publication or on-line resource which
> discusses raw feeding (whole prey model) in Spanish?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex Dewey
>

Hola Alex,

http://www.lobourbano.com/

Ann

Messages in this topic (2)
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8. UPDATE ON PRINCESS NALA - THE PARVO PUP
Posted by: "dogsofnature" dogsofnature@yahoo.com dogsofnature
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

Hello All,

Just want to thank you for all of the great advice and support in my
Dane puppy's time of need. I drove 2.5 hours to pick up Parvaid and
Vibactra on Sunday morning. I administered everything as directed and
it worked wonderfully!! By the time I gave Nala the second dose of
Parvaid, she was drinking water on her own. Today, she had her first
solid bowel movement and I never thought that I would celebrate POOP.
Right now she eats around six to seven tiny meals a day, her appetite
is really picking back up. I feed her ground raw turkey w/mashed
sweet potato, garlic, and honey. I'll start her on bone meals next
week. She's very strong and playful, almost back to herself again.

Thanks again for everything, especially introducing us to Parvaid and
Vibactra

Kesha and Princess Nala (I posted her picture in Photos)

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. What does GSD stand for?
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi ~

What type of dog does GSD stand for?

Thanks.

Cindi

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: What does GSD stand for?
Posted by: "MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com" MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com mustbluvspaniels
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

German Shepard Dog

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: picking out bones
Posted by: "mandarini_gg" amanda.gasparini@gmail.com mandarini_gg
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

My Dane does the EXACT same thing, and she does it only with chicken.
She picks out the bones until the entire 1/2 bird I gave her is
mangled (but still in 1 piece) and lying in the grass. Once that
happens, she's completely uninterested.

I'm dealing with it tonite, actually. I always just put the meat back
into the fridge or freezer, offer it again a few hours later, and if
she doesn't eat it, oh well! I'll just offer it again the next
evening. Sometimes it goes on for a while...she'll just nibble at it
and flop it around a bit, but eventually, she eats it. Once the
chicken is all gone, THEN I give her the "good stuff"....emu, pork,
beef...the stuff she LOVES).

Mandi

-What is weird is she very carefully picks out the bones
-and leaves the meat is a few chunks on the floor.

Messages in this topic (13)
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11a. Beef Question
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

As many of you already I own a large dairy farm and unfortunately we often have extra beef
around. How much of a dogs diet can consist of beef(instead of chicken or turkey)? I think I
am going to feed a raw diet when I take the plunge. I would love if someone could give me a
sample meal or meals for a typical day. Also, how many meals for growing puppy and how
many meals for an adult. Thanks

Messages in this topic (11)
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11b. Re: Beef Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))

"windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...> wrote:
>
> As many of you already I own a large dairy farm and unfortunately we
often have extra beef
> around.
*****
Well, maybe not a misfortune for your dogs!

How much of a dogs diet can consist of beef(instead of chicken or
turkey)?
*****
A raw diet does not have to include chicken or turkey at all in terms
of meat protein. But since beef bones--especially mature beef bones--
are difficult if not impossible to eat and also are renowned for
busting teeth, you may want to feed chicken, turkey, lamb and goat for
edible bone.

I think I
> am going to feed a raw diet when I take the plunge. I would love if
someone could give me a
*****
What plunge? Most people consider raw the plunge but it sounds as if
you've got a pre-raw plunge to deal with first. How many obstacles you
got going here?

> sample meal or meals for a typical day.
*****
Today I fed my retrievers lamb breasts which will tide them over for
two days. The cat got some venison in the AM and half a quail in the
PM; the BC not-a-pup-anymore got venison as her daily meal. Tomorrow
the cat will get some chicken something and the BC will get a leg
quarter. Or maybe a wing/breast quarter.

I try to put as much red meat into the menu as I can, including of
course beef.

Also, how many meals for growing puppy and how
> many meals for an adult.
*****
IMO a young growing pup can get three maybe four meals a day; a
middlin' growing pup can get two meals; and an advanced growing pup can
switch to one meal at 10 months or so--but ultimately it depends on how
the pup does on what you feed. Adjusting to meet the needs of the dog
is one of the joys/responsibilities of feeding a custom diet.

The adult's needs are similar: feed what works best for the dog. I
generally move dogs to Big Food/Small Food rotations when they're
safely into their first year...but it does vary by dog. Some dogs
never graduate to Big Food/Small Food but that's okay.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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12a. Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "reachpanda" reachpanda@yahoo.com reachpanda
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

I found a stray mini-rottweiler 4 months ago (approx 1.5-2 y/o) who is
now part of our family. She has had chronic diarhhea from day one and
has been to the vet several times and tried many medications, deworming
etc. Nothing seemed to be working, so, after a lot of research, I
switched her to a raw diet almost 2 weeks ago. I started with chicken
backs and leg quarters and added an egg one day. She seemed to be
improving, but then my local pet store convinced me that it is
impossible to feed a balanced raw diet and that I had to mix a raw dry
food in with the store bought chicken. And of course since I started
adding in the dry she is getting worse.

Obviously I will stop feeding her the raw dry food, but what about the
prepackaged raw patties? I want to feed her 100% on my own, but what
about keeping some patties on hand for emergencies? Are they worth it?
Or should I only feed store bought meat at any cost?

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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12b. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "reachpanda" <reachpanda@...> wrote
> Obviously I will stop feeding her the raw dry food, but what about the
> prepackaged raw patties? I want to feed her 100% on my own, but what
> about keeping some patties on hand for emergencies? Are they worth it?
> Or should I only feed store bought meat at any cost?

Hi Andrea,
IMO, the prepackaged raw patties are not worth keeping around. The
frozen raw patties have a very high bone content because it is cheaper
to make the patties with lots of bone, less meat, and therefore more
money for the company. Also, the patties usually contain veggies such
as green beans and acorn squash which should not be on a carnivore's
menu. Basically, the makers of frozen patties run a hustle similar to
that of the kibble companies. So, i just can't recommend them. Also,
a pet store could be viewed as having the same agenda as a pet food
company. It is to the pet store's advantage to convince you that
feeding your dog proper nutrition either requires a PHD in something
or something they just happen to sell. Let us know how it goes for
your now very lucky rescue girl. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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12c. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

Also, because of her issues and the irritation she's had to her system,
it would be a good idea to keep things simple (at least for awhile
until she's more stable). If you can find some packaged food that's
just meat/bone/organ, and it's a protein she does well with, you could
keep some on hand and mix or alternate w/some meat (since, like Kathy
mentioned, the patties are usually high in bone). Or if she ends up
doing ok on some of the mixed patties, you could use those sometimes.
My dog does better without the veggies and I think veggies might be
likely to flare up any kind of digestive issue in dogs. You could also
just keep some "easy" meals in the freezer for emergencies that would
serve the same purpose. Whatever seems easy to you--chicken leg
quarters, boneless meat of some kind, ground meat, etc. Separate them
into meal size baggies and there you go. You could just make sure you
have an emergency stash of anything that works.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Switching a 12-year-old dog to raw food
Posted by: "Yoko" ys57701@gmail.com ys57701
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

I read a few web articles regarding raw feeding, but I have not been able to
find any that addresses issues on feeding old dogs. An article on caring for
old dogs recommended "light" diet. Shall I give my 12-year-old Lab-Spaniel
mix lean meat? Does an older dog tolerate fasting as well as younger adult
dogs? My dog's teeth and health are in pretty good conditions except a bout
of arthritic pain she suffers when the humidity is high. I'm planning to
switch her diet cold turkey to raw, but I would like to hear your advice
before carrying it out. Thank you.

Yoko (a new member)

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Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Switching a 12-year-old dog to raw food
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:37 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:18:49 -0600, you wrote:

>I read a few web articles regarding raw feeding, but I have not been able to
>find any that addresses issues on feeding old dogs.

I don't know either, but last week I switched all of my Silkys to raw
(I have four of them). The oldest is almost 13, then there are two
that are 11 and one that is 4 or 5 (I've lost track!). They sure don't
seem to have any problem with it at all. They LOVE their new food and
I'm just planning to adjust quantities and fats if I have trouble with
their weight. :)

They were already used to raw supplements to their kibble - I've a
source for free beef liver and heart and we had duck eggs I've given
them for a couple of years now. So, I quit the kibble and added
chicken so far and even the mostly toothless old girl manages to
crunch down a whole chicken wing, bones and all with no trouble.
(Remember these are toy breeds, so their day's intake is about 1/4
lb.)
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (2)
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14. Dry aged beef scraps - safe?
Posted by: "Margo Farnsworth" mfarnsworth@mfgraffix.com mfarnsworth06759
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:36 pm ((PDT))

I have a friend who raises natural beef and then dry ages it. This process
creates a lot of waste that they cut away on the outside of the carcass.
Does anyone know if this would be safe to feed to dogs?

Dry-aged steak is aged in the open air at controlled temperature between 34
F and 38 F with an ambient humidity level adjusted between 50% and 75%.

Margo

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12167

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New: need advice
From: katkellm

2a. newb questions
From: Mary Tinder
2b. Re: newb questions
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: newb questions
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Very odd poo
From: miensasis

4a. Re: I just joined
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: I just joined
From: katkellm

5a. Re: I've Taken the Plunge
From: miensasis

6a. my old shepherd mix is super sluggish
From: spricketysprock
6b. Re: my old shepherd mix is super sluggish
From: Casey Post
6c. Re: my old shepherd mix is super sluggish
From: carnesbill

7. slightly OT: Whole animals for cats or small dogs
From: Shannon Hully

8a. Re: feeding raw and aggression
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: Marilyn Neil
9b. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: Maggie Smith
9c. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: Yasuko herron
9d. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: costrowski75

10a. New at Raw Feeding
From: kzyocy
10b. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: Marilyn Neil
10c. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: Tina Berry

11.1. Fish was Re: Shopping for raw and the benefits to owners
From: girlndocs

12a. Re: Lamb flaps/and puppy
From: beaulah_2001us

13a. Re: older GSD losing fur
From: cynthia iparraguirre
13b. Re: older GSD losing fur
From: pretty24355

14a. Re: no poop since Saturday
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: New: need advice
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:24 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:
WIth frusteration I started switching
> his diet, first eliminating beef, then chicken to no avail. Finally
I took him completely off
> poultry.

Hi Tammy,
There is no requirement that a dog eat chicken to have balanced
nutrition on a raw diet. Meats such as pork, beef, deer, goat, and
lamb are all probably more desirable choices. Chicken is often
recommended as a first protein because it is easy on the budget, easy
eating bones, and easy to find. If a person decided not to start with
chicken, i would have to opt for turkey or pork as my next pick.
Obviously the decision is yours, but i think that maybe you have come
to an erroneous conclusion about chicken being the cause of the
allergies and vomiting. The Bravo blend is a blend of bone and meat
and veggies. All frozen raw patties are extremely high in bone content
because it is an economical way for the company to make more money.
So, the vomiting and such could have come from an excessive portion of
bone. Also, there are green beans, and acorn squash ...in the blend.
These things are also known to cause allergies in dogs. So, i think
that you can't really say that you have done a true elimination diet
and proven that chicken is the culprit. As far as the Timberwolf
goes, there are so many species inappropriate items in there, anything
could still be causing the problems. Most dogs that were considered
allergic to something before they started feeding a prey model raw
diet do not show the same reaction when eating a truly natural diet.
Nice to have you here, KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. newb questions
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:53 am ((PDT))

Should all raw food be frozen prior to feeding to kill parasites and
what have you? I'm thinking that does not happen often in the wild...
Mary Tinder

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: newb questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Should all raw food be frozen prior to feeding to kill parasites and
> what have you? I'm thinking that does not happen often in the
wild...

You are 100% correct. The only reason I freeze is to keep the food
from stinking up my house. :) :) :) I often feed things the same day
I buy them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: newb questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:11 pm ((PDT))

"Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Should all raw food be frozen prior to feeding to kill parasites and
> what have you?
*****
No.
Not even for the what have you's.

I'm thinking that does not happen often in the wild...
*****
And you're thinking right.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maurwyck" <Maurwyck@...> wrote:
>
> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES!***
>
> My pup has been on raw for about a week now and he has had a very wide
> array of feces. I'm worried now though because it's very mucusy (if
> that's a word).

Hi Maureen...

I'm still new to raw myself. My 2 wheatens were switched about 4 weeks
ago and with Molly, my more sensitive dog, I saw exactly the types of
changes in her poo that you describe. When I compared her poo to
Riley's it was much runnier, and when it was firm it was coated in a
jelly-like mucous. After 4 weeks her poo is now normal...no more
mucous, no more runnyness. I'm no expert, but my theory is that during
the first few weeks her digestive system had to recalibrate itself and
it cleared out some things it didn't need anymore or that had
accumulated while on the dry food. Clearly, Molly had a harder time
than Riley digesting the kibble. She also had so many other
issues..ranging from physical to behavioral...on the kibble that have
gotten miraculously better so I believe that they were kibble-related.

Hope this helps.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: I just joined
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barbarakaslow"
<barbarakaslow@...> wrote:
>
> I just read something online about how they are unnecesary.

Missing Link, Wellness supplement, flax seed, Cod Liver oil, yogurt,
veggies and fruit are ALL UNNECESSARY and UNDESIRED. The only
desired and necessary components of a raw diet are meat, bones, and
organs from a variety of animals. Period. Nothing else. My dogs
have eaten nothing else in 5 years. I feed nothing but animal parts
and would never feed premix frozen paddies which are nothing but raw
kibble.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: I just joined
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barbarakaslow" <barbarakaslow@...>
wrote:
> I just joined, and I have two Bchon Firses 15, & 8 yr males
> who eat the raw diet as well as yogurt, veggies and fruit.
> I was wondering about the Missing Link, Wellness supplement
> and the flax seed and Cod Liver oils.

Hi Barbara,
I think that you are going to find that no one here feeds any
supplements, with the exception of salmon oil which is a supplement
necessitated by man's ability to inappropriately feed stock corn
rather than grass, and i think you'll read that no one feeds veggies,
fruit, or dairy products either. The short of it is that dogs are
carnivores who are direct descendants of the wolf, read Giselle's
totally documenting and in depth post at
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402.

As
carnivores, our dogs have no nutritional need for fruits, veggies, or
dairy products. These ingredients can actually cause allergies and
such in our dogs. Aside from being unnecessary to a dog's diet, they
occupy space in the meal that would better be filled with meat. If
you feed a species appropriate diet, you won't be missing anything and
won't need to add anything. I know, right about now you're probably
thinking that what i'm saying is way off base, but if you'll take a
moment to read the archives and the other answers to your post- all
the while keeping an open mind-it just might make sense to you to
rethink some of your menu choices. Glad to have you here, KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: I've Taken the Plunge
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...>
wrote:
>
> 2) I am not trying to be so "perfect" with the amount that I am to
feed my dog but I need to know approximately how much I should feed.
My dog weighs 32# but is alittle overweight. I know that the general
rule of thumb is 2-3% of their ideal weight. Would giving her 2-3
chicken thighs a day be enough/too much for her? Could you please
give me some more sample meals for her weight?

Jackie...

I started feeding raw to my two 30 lb wheatens about 4 weeks ago.
They seem to be just the right weight...if not a little on the
thinner side. I'm still in the chicken and organs stage, but here's
an idea of the types of meals I feed them. Also, my meal sizes vary
but are usually in the 8-12 oz range. I will buy a 2 pack of nice
meaty split chicken breast. The ones I buy come 2 to a pack and
depending on the total weight of the pack I give them each a whole
breast or if they are very, very large I cut the breast with bone in
half. I usually add little bits of chicken liver, heart, and other
giblets. I have fed thighs....but usually I give them one thigh with
bone, 1 thigh that's boneless, and add some organ meat as well.
Sometimes I buy a whole chicken (I look for a 4 lb one) and I quarter
it and divide the giblets up. Each quarter is a meal. Sometimes I
give a whole leg quarter and add a little extra meat (like boneless
thigh meat) and a bit of organ. I'm surprised at how easy this
really is. At first I was so concerned about weighing and trying to
get exactly the 80-10-10 ratio. Now I don't stress about it. Some
days I skip the organs, once or twice I gave just meat but didn't
have a bone to add. It was all fine. Once or twice I gave the RMB,
but didn't have the extra boneless meat to add. That was fine too.
But the portion sizes I described seem to be just about right for my
wheatens...and would probably be a good size give or take a little
for your dog. Also...about the thighs...I've read on this list that
just a thigh could be too small a piece for a dog and could present a
choking hazard--especially if the dog tries to swallow whole. While
I do feed thighs occasionally, I always supervise and have dogs that
are very, very thorough chewers. If your dog is a gulper, you might
want to stick with bigger pieces like the whole leg quarter.

Hope that helps!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. my old shepherd mix is super sluggish
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:33 am ((PDT))

Hello again,
So I have a 10 (soon to be 11) yr old shepherd/chow/misc, about 65
lbs. He's never been an energetic dog, but lately his sluggishness
seems a bit absurd. He handles walks alright but indoors does nothing
but sleep. He's been on raw for 8 or so months and I give him plenty
of variety. He's doing quite well on it and is a perfect candidate.
But something is lacking because his energy is just so low, even
compared to other older dogs. Also his fur is pretty gross, although
it's always been gross, maybe it's just his breed. It feels oily when
you pet him, it looks dry, and he sheds a LOT. But no hot spots or
anything like that.

Does anyone know what could be the problem? Could this be a thyroid
issue? I might bring him to the vet, are there any tests in particular
I should ask for? Thanks!

Jess n Toby

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: my old shepherd mix is super sluggish
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT))

> Does anyone know what could be the problem? Could this be a thyroid
> issue?

DEFINITELY.

>I might bring him to the vet, are there any tests in particular
> I should ask for?

Full six panel thyroid. And he's of an age where if you can afford a full
blood panel, it would be a good idea. But the sooner you get his thyroid
checked out, the better. This is not something you want to delay on - my
dog went undiagnosed too long and suffered for it.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: my old shepherd mix is super sluggish
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...>
wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what could be the problem?

You can run blood tests and thyroid tests and you may learn something
from them. IMO is main problem is 11 years old. You don't feel like
a teenager when you get that old. Joints get stiff, muscles get sore
and you just don't feel like moving nearly as much.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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7. slightly OT: Whole animals for cats or small dogs
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:33 am ((PDT))

Is there anyone around Saginaw, MI? I have to move in a week to Canada
and I have way more small furred/feathered bodies to feed my cats than
I can use in that amount of time. I can't bring them across the border
either (the food, not the cats! hehe) so I was hoping someone might
want them.

I know it can be daunting to look at buying a whole shipping box full
when you're first trying them out on whole prey (not to mention
shipping costs!) so if anyone would like to buy a bag or four of them
they're welcome. I have a bag each of quail chicks, rats, chicks, and
guinea pigs, all small enough to be a single meal for my 10-13lbs cats
(well, they get two chicks each at a meal, but one of anything else).

E-mail me privately if you're interested as I'm so busy I'm not
checking my group e-mails right now.

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: feeding raw and aggression
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT))

"I have one male and one female who have become aggressive to others of
their own sex. I like feeding raw, but don't want any of my dogs to be
seriously hurt or killed either."

This has nothing to do with feeding raw. How old are your dogs and what
type of training have they had and socializing?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT))

We dont rely upon them, we just like to give the dogs a huge variety. Maybe we will just stop ordering them.

Marilyn

www.lestorm.co.uk

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> I found one of my Golden bitches chocking on a turkey neck. I
managed to grab an end and pull the whole thing out. She hadnt chewed
it and thought it would go down in one go. I now cut the turkey necks
in half. Better safe than sorry!
*****
Cutting a turkey neck in half does not remedy the situation. In fact,
there's no advantage to your golden who will still be inclined to
swallow a body part that looks gosh awfully like something just perfect
for swallowing; and you have less to grab onto when she repeats her
choking performance.

If you must rely on turkey necks, please consider the biggest darn
things you can find (tom necks are as good as turkey necks get).
Chris O

Ems xxx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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9b. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

I have 2 Danes and one LOVES his turkey necks! These are toms, and
they are huge and I do NOT cut them.

We started with turkey necks and turkey tails and chicken quarters
and have progressed to include beef, emu, lamb, fish, turkey, etc.
These are happy boys and I am contemplating adopting a third who is
11 months old and around 160! As soon as I decide (maybe sooner!!),
he is on RAW!! We aren't allowed to feed raw to fosters - :(

Maggie, Rufus and Oliver and ???

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...>
wrote:
>
> We dont rely upon them, we just like to give the dogs a huge
variety. Maybe we will just stop ordering them.
>
> Marilyn
>

www.lestorm.co.uk

>
> costrowski75 <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@> wrote:
> >
> > I found one of my Golden bitches chocking on a turkey neck. I
> managed to grab an end and pull the whole thing out. She hadnt

Messages in this topic (13)
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9c. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:49 am ((PDT))

>We started with turkey necks and turkey tails and chicken quarters
>and have progressed to include beef, emu, lamb, fish, turkey, etc.

Hi. Palette loves Turkey Neck. She goes nuts. Since I like to add more meat to neck,I cut into half and 1 neck is for 2 meal worth.

She has no problems,and chew quite good so,I do not worry about gulping and choking.

couple days ago,I was browsing on the net..I did not mark the web so,I cannot find it again but there was interesting thing about Turkey.

Turkey seem to have some effect to dog that makes calm/sleepy dogs. It would not cause dog to go sleep with regularamount but if fed whole Turkey one meal(14lb or so).

someone was questioning about dog gets so frisky/noisy when guest comes over the house and suggestion that was made was to feed Turkey,big whole Turkey and dog goes sleep.

I am not sure if it really happens if fed that much at one sitting but it was interesting.

And,I like to ask,where did you get Emu? The other day,I found exotic site that tellsflavor difference along with retailer page andI posted it ,but they do not have Emu. Your dog likes it? waht part of Emu is most recommended to feed?I don't think you can buy whole Emu,I think.

I am curious.

yassy

---------------------------------
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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9d. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:19 pm ((PDT))

Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> We dont rely upon them, we just like to give the dogs a huge
variety. Maybe we will just stop ordering them.
*****
IMO not ordering more would be a good choice. However, if you like
feeding them and you feed safe feeding them, feed them. If though you
are feeding turkey necks for variety, other turkey parts will do just
fine and will probably be less tempting to swallow whole.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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10a. New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "kzyocy" kzy01@earthlink.net kzyocy
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

Hi, I am a newbie at Raw Feeding and would like to know what to feed
my new puppy,Brussels Griffon--small type, that I will be bringing
home this next week. She will be 8 weeks old and from what I know,
she has been just about weaned off the mother's milk. I believe the
breeder has been feeding her some kind of "special mush". I want to
start her right off with the raw. So, I need someone to direct me as
to how much, how often, and what I should start her with. Thanks so
much in advance.
Kristina

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

Hi Kristina

We start our pups on raw from 5 weeks old. We start by giving them ground beef and minced chicken, chicken carcasses with skin and back bone removed, Oats soaked overnight in goats milk, yogurt, honey, veg.

Start by offering minced chicken for say the first two days. Pop an egg with shell into the processor with the chicken three times a week, Then on the third day start introducing beef and a chicken carcass. As the days pass slowly start adding tiny bits of lamb liver/heart/ kidneys and tripe (our pups love the tripe) to the ground beef/chicken. Grate one veg/fruit and also to add to meat three times a week. Small bits of fish will go down very well.

Little and often. Try not to worry too much about the pup not eating everything in a week, as long as they get a varied diet they will be fine.

Marilyn

www.lestorm.co.uk

kzyocy <kzy01@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hi, I am a newbie at Raw Feeding and would like to know what to feed
my new puppy,Brussels Griffon--small type, that I will be bringing
home this next week. She will be 8 weeks old and from what I know,
she has been just about weaned off the mother's milk. I believe the
breeder has been feeding her some kind of "special mush". I want to
start her right off with the raw. So, I need someone to direct me as
to how much, how often, and what I should start her with. Thanks so
much in advance.
Kristina

Ems xxx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

"She will be 8 weeks old and from what I know, she has been just about
weaned off the mother's milk."

Congrats and welcome! I have a large breed, but you can start puppies out
on ground meat, chicken wings (too boney for a full meal tho) you try to
keep it at 10% bone, 10% organs (later) and 80 meat. I feed venison since
it's hunting season, lots of people start out on chicken, but whatever you
have easy access to will work. Lots of people start out on bone in chicken
breasts since they are so meaty. I have bought whole chickens on sale and
quartered them. You can let the pup eat until they are full or stop eating,
pick up whats left if they didn't finish and put in the frig for next meal.
I fed my new pups 3 times a day until 6 months, then twice a day until a
year then now once a day - that is personal preference for what fits your
schedule.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11.1. Fish was Re: Shopping for raw and the benefits to owners
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

Hi Christine,

> Where do people find affordable fish? All the fish I've seen are
> over $5/lb....

At the Asian supermarket near me I get whole (really whole, not drawn)
mackerel for between 1.29 and 1.99/lb. Salmon heads are 99 cents/lb
and other fish in the fresh cases range between 1.49 and 2.99/lb.
Little bitty fish frozen in packs are around $3/lb, I think.

Smelt comes into season once a year -- here in WA it's mid to late
winter, other places in spring. Smelt is cheap in season, under $2/lb.

Bait fish are under $3/lb (usually quite a bit under) -- I think they
are mostly frozen smelt? Maybe herring or perch too.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (79)
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12a. Re: Lamb flaps/and puppy
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

Thank you Carrie for explaining that to me. There is so much I dont
know about feeding raw and and including what different parts of the
meat are called.

We got a darling little pure bred boxer a week ago this last Saturday!
She is truely adorable. Havent named her yet though. I will try to get
some pictures posted in a few minutes. We just love her to peices!

Sandy
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beaulah_2001us"
> <beaulah_2001us@> wrote:
> >
> > What are lamb flaps? I have never heard of that before.
>
> *** Lamb flaps are usually the tissue between the ribs and the loin,
> that held in the abdominal organs when the lamb was alive. It may
> include the last couple of ribs, and should include quite a bit of
> thin muscular tissue. It is great as meaty bone, but may tend to be a
> bit fatty, depending on the lamb. Start with small amounts if your
> dogs are not used to it.
>
> --Carrie
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: older GSD losing fur
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

maybe its mites.
Cynthia Flores

I've checked the archives and most of the losing fur questions are

regarding dogs new to raw feeding. I have two German Shepherds, one

is 9 and the other is 19 months. They have been eating raw foods for

well over a year now and are doing well. I've noticed that over the

past month my 9 year old male has some small patches of fur missing

onthe lower half of his back as well as dry skin in that area. It

also seems slightly sensitive when I brush him. Could this be diet

related? They eat a variety of chicken, beef, pork, fish and organ

meats with about only one egg a week. My "puppy" is doing great and

has the most beautiful coat. The only difference in diet is that the

puppy likes fruits and vegetables, so I share a little with her when

I eat. I can't imagine that would help her coat though.

I see that in other fur loss issues, more fat from pork and beef is

suggested. I've been feeding pretty much the same combination of

foods since they started the diet, and I'm wondering if maybe his fur

loss and dry skin could just be age related. Any suggestions?

Should I try to increase fat and eggs?

Thanks,

Rebecca

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Messages in this topic (5)
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13b. Re: older GSD losing fur
Posted by: "pretty24355" blackdogshaven@hcinet.net pretty24355
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))

Hi Rebecca,

As others have suggested, have his thyroid checked. Coat problems,
losing hair, dry skin, are very typical in hypothyroid dogs-people too.

Karen

> I've checked the archives and most of the losing fur questions are
> regarding dogs new to raw feeding.
> Rebecca

Messages in this topic (5)
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14a. Re: no poop since Saturday
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:49 am ((PDT))

Hi Carol,

I don't know if there's anything odd because of the avocado pit (I
have no particular knowledge or experience with that type of thing,
but it SEEMS doubtful that could still be it), but just wanted to let
you know that a couple days w/no poop is normal with my dog. I
haven't really tracked it to know if a certain food/schedule is
linked to this, but he just poops less often in general now and isn't
really on a regular poop schedule. :-)

As you probably know, kibble has fillers and stool regulators and
when you switch to prey model, the bone/meat/skin/fat ratios vary,
size of meals may vary more, etc. So it's just not going to be as
predictable. And stress could definitely affect things.

Since there are no other symptoms, I'd personally give it another day
or two, and don't feed a lot of bone (that way you won't have that as
a constipating factor).

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Ok, getting nervous here. Nothing's come out the back end since
Saturday
> morning (it's now Tuesday morning).

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12166

There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dog doesnt seem to know how to eat raw!
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Dog doesnt seem to know how to eat raw!
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: pork shoulder
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: pork shoulder
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2c. Re: pork shoulder
From: woofwoofgrrl

3a. Re: Puppy with the runs
From: Ido Ben

4a. Re: Very odd poo
From: carnesbill

5. New: need advice
From: sltahoek9s

6. no poop since Saturday
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

7.1. Re: Fish was Re: Shopping for raw and the benefits to owners
From: woofwoofgrrl

8. I just joined
From: barbarakaslow

9a. Re: feeding raw and aggression
From: moemahood@aol.com

10a. Re: older GSD losing fur
From: moemahood@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Re: Dog doesnt seem to know how to eat raw!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:22 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cassiusclay84"
<cassiusclay84@...> wrote:
>
> Is he just a newb at eating something that requires actual
> chewing and ripping? He seems to enjoy the chicken, but also seems
> frustrated that he cant eat it.

I think you are trying too hard. You are getting both yourself and
the dog upset. Back off and let him figure it out. It may take a
few meals but he wlll get it. Put his food down and get away from
him. Stay close enought to keep an eye on him but don't say
anything or bother him in any way. He will figure it out. Have
patience and give him time. Don't hold his food. Don't do anything
but stay out of his way. He will be downing a chicken quarter in
about 5 minutes in no time then you will be posting about him
gobbling his food too fast and not chewing properly. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Dog doesnt seem to know how to eat raw!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:37 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/15/2007 7:36:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cassiusclay84@yahoo.com writes:

Questions: Is 1.25 lbs too much for him at once? Should I give him
smaller portions? I really dont want to feed him twice a day,

Ali,

take a deep breath.. relax. a chicken quarter is fine for a meal. exact
weights aren't important. if he's "supposed" to get 1 lb per day then if the leg
quarter is more than 1/2 lb or less than 1.5 lbs then you're feeding him
enough.

In the beginning it's probably better to stick to the lighter side. But it's
really no big deal, he MIGHT have looser stools, but probably not.

As far as the holding it down to eat.. some dogs never do that. i have dogs
that would rather die than have their food touch their pristine paws.. and i
have dogs that stand on their food and rip away.. it's an individual thing.
And holding the food for your dog is counter productive, so is cajoling and
fussing trying to get him to eat.

What you want to do is put the food down for him where you want him to eat.
If he is working on it and trying to figure it out, let him.. don't interfere.
IF he licks it and walks away, pick it up and put it away till his next
regular meal time (yes this means the following day if you want to feed once a
day).

There is no reason to feed a normal healthy adult dog more than once a day.
And lots of us feed our dogs even less often than that.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:22 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rocketblasther" <jforbes05@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm curious about pork shoulders, are the bones in a pork
> shoulder OK for my GSD dog to consume.

Yes

> Would she be able to eat the whole thing?

Probably so.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (18)
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2b. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:44 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:20:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jforbes05@sbcglobal.net writes:

I'm curious about pork shoulders, are the bones in a pork shoulder OK
for my GSD dog to consume. Would she be able to eat the whole thing?

Jim and Sara,

Yep and Yep.. pork on and off the bone is a favorite meal here.. in fact, we
just did pork picnic roasts yesterday.

We cut one in 4 pieces and the other in 5 pieces. the first one we cut 3 BIG
hunks of meat off and fed the hunk with the bone still in it to Merlin (great
dane pup). And the other picnic roast bone portion went to Michiko (akita
pup). The rest of the dogs had big hunky boneless pork hunks, some with skin,
some without.

Tonight will be chicken leg quarters.. i've gone back to feeding every day
again for awhile, the dogs are hungrier now that things are cooling off. And
the akitas were getting skinnier..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (18)
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2c. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:57 am ((PDT))

My Whippets and Border Collie LOVE pork shoulder - including the bone.
It takes them a while to get through it, but they thoroughly enjoy it!
I'm sure your GSD will have a blast!

Christine
rocketblasther wrote:
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm curious about pork shoulders, are the bones in a pork shoulder OK
> for my GSD dog to consume. Would she be able to eat the whole thing?
>
> Thanks,
> Jim & Sara
>

Messages in this topic (18)
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3a. Re: Puppy with the runs
Posted by: "Ido Ben" kaawazuri@yahoo.com kaawazuri
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:23 am ((PDT))

I have same type of problem, 3 german spitz pups, 4.5 weeks, as teets started the mum getting problem in feeding. We are adding "bitch milk" and want to start with raw feeding.
How to?

moemahood@aol.com wrote:
Why don't you do one meal of chicken necks?? and the other of just meat.

?Maureen

My 2-lb pom pup (15 weeks) is not capable with her puppy teeth to eat
enough bone to offset her meat meals and consequently has such very
loose stools that she cannot hold long enough to get outside. It is
hindering potty training and, well, just plain messy. I even have bone
leftover with chicken wings.

Any suggestions for firming up her stools until she masters the art of
the bone?

Thanks
Monica in IL

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maurwyck" <Maurwyck@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what this is and should I be worried?

Sounds pretty normal for a newly switched dog. You will soon become
accustomed to what his poo will look like. It's looks will depend on
what it's made from. Sometimes it will be softer, sometimes harder,
sometimes more moisture, sometimes drier, etc. Since he will be
eating different foods, it will always look different depending on
what he ate last.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5. New: need advice
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:50 am ((PDT))

Hi All,
I'm new to this group and new again to raw feeding. My 4 year old GSD was on raw for his
first two years. However, he seemed to have a food allergy of sorts (never diagnosed). For
those first 2 years he would vomit yellow bile 3 or more times a week and was pretty itchy.
He was on a Bravo Blend most of that time but not all. WIth frusteration I started switching
his diet, first eliminating beef, then chicken to no avail. Finally I took him completely off
poultry. Finding alternative foods was tough for me so I went to the best dry foods I could
find. He has remained somewhat itchy consistently, though the vomitting stopped when the
poultry stopped. Recently he's been on Timberwolf Organics dry fish formula and his itching
is at its least, but still not gone. The climate it really dry, but my lab isn't itchy like he is. So
i've been looking into doing raw again. He has elbow dysplasia and a partially torn ACL so I
want him to have the best diet to support his structural issues. I'm just not sure how to go
about it. I really dont want to give him any poultry again when he was so miserable. I did
offer him a mackeral today and he ate it with relish, so that was promising. How do I create
balance? I'm really hesitant so I'd appreciate any advice.
Thanks,
Tammy C

Messages in this topic (1)
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6. no poop since Saturday
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:56 am ((PDT))

Ok, getting nervous here. Nothing's come out the back end since Saturday
morning (it's now Tuesday morning). No signs of distress, bloat, swelling,
pain, and appetite is good, drinking normal. Yesterday had one brief bout of
gagging-like sounds for a few seconds. Couldn't tell if he was coughing or
about to vomit but it passed quickly and nothing since.

Gums look good. Eyes bright. He ate mostly meat over the weekend...no
bones...because he was with a friend. Could be stress of being away? But that
never happened before since he's familiar with the person and the place and
has stayed there many times before.

Anyone have suggestions/ideas?

Carol

p.s. This is the guy who swallowed the avocado pit a few weeks ago. It's
been coming out bit by bit. Could THAT be the problem three weeks later?

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Messages in this topic (1)
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7.1. Re: Fish was Re: Shopping for raw and the benefits to owners
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:56 am ((PDT))

Where do people find affordable fish? All the fish I've seen are over
$5/lb....

Thanks!
Christine

linoleum5017 wrote:
>
>
> Loraine,
>
> You have ME rolling on the floor, laughing! I have to say that my
> dog loves smelts -- in fact it's the only fish he will reliably
> eat. Don't think he's heard that he may have 'smelt' like 10 old
> ladies, ha!
>
> Keep trying different fishes, b/c they are that good for your
> dog.... though they don't have to be smelt.
>
> Enjoy!
> Lynne

Messages in this topic (78)
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8. I just joined
Posted by: "barbarakaslow" barbarakaslow@yahoo.com barbarakaslow
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:56 am ((PDT))

Hi everybody,
I just joined, and I have two Bchon Firses 15, & 8 yr males
who eat the raw diet as well as yogurt, veggies and fruit.
I was wondering about the Missing Link, Wellness supplement
and the flax seed and Cod Liver oils. I have been using those
as well for years now and haven't had a problem, does anyone
else? I just read something online about how they are unnecesary.
Thanks a lot,
Barbara

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: feeding raw and aggression
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:56 am ((PDT))

****I have yorkies and have been feeding raw for about 5 months. I have
one male and one female who have become aggressive to others of their
own sex.

Well you probably had a dominance issue before feeding raw and now that
they have something worth being dominante over they exhibit the
behavior.

Are they aggressive at meal time? If so I would make the aggressor eat
last, have him/her watch the others eat to establish that they are not
in control of the food. Also, up their obedience training -- you will
need to establish yourself as the leader so that they do not think they
can take over.

Maureen

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Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Re: older GSD losing fur
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:56 am ((PDT))

I would get a full blood panel done including thyroid. This could be a
symptom of something serious.