Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 7, 2007

Sunday, October 7, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12132

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: List on Freecycle
From: girlndocs

2a. What do your shortcut words mean?
From: Meredith
2b. Re: What do your shortcut words mean?
From: Karen Swanay
2c. Re: What do your shortcut words mean?
From: Meredith Soriano
2d. Re: What do your shortcut words mean?
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Incontinence
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: Incontinence
From: Carol Dunster
3c. Re: Incontinence
From: Diane Schneider
3d. Re: Incontinence
From: Giselle
3e. Re: Incontinence
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: black tarry poop
From: Giselle
4b. Re: black tarry poop
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

5a. Re: Pregnant and off feed
From: Giselle

6.1. Re: new to raw
From: Giselle

7a. Please help, Pom is itching!!
From: Ashley Myers
7b. Re: Please help, Pom is itching!!
From: rosey031801

8a. Re: rawfeeding in winter vs summer
From: Giselle
8b. Re: rawfeeding in winter vs summer
From: Shannon Hully
8c. Re: rawfeeding in winter vs summer
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: overweight PWD
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
From: linoleum5017

11. New dog, feeding question
From: raven4519

12a. Re: new puppy-new raw feeder
From: lorikschaff
12b. Re: new puppy-new raw feeder
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Croaker/Other Fish
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mona,

> Some of the meat I had to dispose of because they gave me sausages etc
> too and of course we can't use that, nor could I use the cooked
> poultry scraps or the cold cuts

For this reason I stipulate that I'm looking for raw, unseasoned meat.
It's worked well so far.

Of course, if I did get something I couldn't feed the dog, I bet the
hens would love it :)

Kristin

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. What do your shortcut words mean?
Posted by: "Meredith" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

Can someon please give me the meanings to some things?
What is PM?
and others, I'll writs it all down and never ask again! PROMISE!!

Thanks!
Meredith

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: What do your shortcut words mean?
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

PM? Can you use it in a sentence? PM means a lot of things.
Karen

On 10/7/07, Meredith <mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Can someon please give me the meanings to some things?
> What is PM?
> and others, I'll writs it all down and never ask again! PROMISE!!
>
> Thanks!
> Meredith

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: What do your shortcut words mean?
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:12 pm ((PDT))

I saw one sentence~~~> you can pm me if you want to........?

Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@gmail.com> wrote: PM? Can you use it in a sentence? PM means a lot of things.
Karen

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

Feel Free to join our group in Lake County Florida!!

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/FreeBuySellinLCF/

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2d. Re: What do your shortcut words mean?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Meredith!

PM = private message - the person could be referring to personal
email, but some groups have different types of group communication,
called php bulletin boards, or forums. Most of them have a sort of
private email box for each member on the forum site for private
messages between members, hence PM.
Here is the phpbb.com home website forum;
http://www.phpbb.com/community/

chat acronyms;
http://www.netlingo.com/emailsh.cfm
http://www.sharpened.net/glossary/acronyms.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I saw one sentence~~~> you can pm me if you want to........?
>
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote: PM? Can you use it
in a sentence? PM means a lot of things.
> Karen
>
> On 10/7/07, Meredith <mom2mytwinz@...> wrote:
> > Can someone please give me the meanings to some things?
> > What is PM?
> > and others, I'll write it all down and never ask again! PROMISE!!
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Meredith

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Incontinence
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

No....diet is not responsible for incontinence. Could be many things (spay
incontinence, renal disease, infections) which would require a vet check
with bloodwork and a urinalysis run.

Allergy? I doubt it...but you definitely need to get some variety,
especially red meat, into her diet. A few years feeding nothing but chicken
is not healthy.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Diane Schneider" <dianeschneider1@gmail.com>

> Does anyone know any reason why a raw diet might be responsible for
> incontinence? Before I take my dog to the vet to get this checked out I
> am just wondering if it could be diet related. She has been on a raw
> meat and bone diet for a few years now but I must admit that we have
> just stuck with chicken. I do feed her chicken livers and hearts plus
> fish oil capsules as well. Could this be a chicken allergy or something??

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Incontinence
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:40 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:28:33 -0400, you wrote:

>Does anyone know any reason why a raw diet might be responsible for
>incontinence? Before I take my dog to the vet to get this checked out I
>am just wondering if it could be diet related. She has been on a raw
>meat and bone diet for a few years now but I must admit that we have
>just stuck with chicken.

If she has had the same diet for a few years, why would it suddenly
cause incontinence? I'd be looking for some other reason, possibly a
bladder infection, as the first cause. How old is she? When did the
symptoms first start? What are those symptoms?

On the other hand, I'm sure she'd benefit from some more variety in
terms of the source of her protein, just for general health.
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: Incontinence
Posted by: "Diane Schneider" dianeschneider1@gmail.com schneiderdiane
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:

> Allergy? I doubt it...but you definitely need to get some variety,
> especially red meat, into her diet. A few years feeding nothing but
chicken
> is not healthy.

Thanks. Can you explain to me what exactly is lacking in an all
chicken (no red meat) diet?

Diane

Messages in this topic (7)
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3d. Re: Incontinence
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Diane!
VARIETY!

Do you feed organs, like liver?

This list promotes and supports a raw whole prey model diet.

Some links to help you learn about it;
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

Some chicken is injected with salt solutions or enhanced with
flavorings or seasonings. You should avoid feeding chicken that has
this, to see if it can make a difference in your dog's diet. Chicken
is cheap, easy to obtain and to feed, but its not by any means a
perfect food.

There isn't a perfect food. Optimum nutrition is achieved by feeding a
variety of meatymeat, a little edible bone and a little organ, and by
never being satisfied that the diet you are feeding is good enough.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thanks. Can you explain to me what exactly is lacking in an all
> chicken (no red meat) diet?
>
> Diane

Messages in this topic (7)
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3e. Re: Incontinence
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:57 pm ((PDT))

Meat, fat, nutrients, variety. The natural diet of a carnivore is large
ungulates...red meat and lots of it. Chicken is fine during the transition
from kibble to raw, but as soon as possible, meaty meals and organs from
other sources is always recommended. This is discussed routinely....you've
been around here long enough to know that.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Diane Schneider" <dianeschneider1@gmail.com>
Thanks. Can you explain to me what exactly is lacking in an all
chicken (no red meat) diet?

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: black tarry poop
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

Because, Carol, that's what boneless organs poops look like!

What goes in directly affects what comes out. Just like a very bony meal
will produce white, crumbly 'fossil' poops, boneless organ meals will
produce very dark 'pudding' poops.

If you want to offset a boneless/organ meal or a too bony meal; either feed
the opposite in a meal the same day, or you can try to 'balance' a
boneless/organ meal by feeding some bone with it, or feed more meatymeat or
some organ with a bony meal.

TC
Giselle

<snip>

> Please excuse the graphic nature of this post, but after feeding organ
> meat, what is the reason my dogs' poops are black, tarry, and thick?
> Caren O'Connor
> Nansemond Cavaliers
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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4b. Re: black tarry poop
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

Because that's what a bate of organ meat does to most dogs' poop. :)

If it bothers you, try feeding a small addition of organ meat to the regular
meal every day or 2, instead of a good bit of it at once.

Lynda

In a message dated 10/7/2007 8:03:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "Caren
OConnor" writes:

after feeding organ meat, what is the reason my dogs' poops are black,
tarry, and thick?

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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5a. Re: Pregnant and off feed
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Renate!
She's pregnant. I wouldn't play the 'tough love' game now.

Feed her what she'll eat.

Try quickly seared boneless chicken bits or pork bits for now.

But, anything she'll eat for now is good.

If she still won't eat, after one more time, don't wait, get her to
the vet.

There may be something else going on that not eating is just a symptom
of.

I don't think you can fast tiny dogs the way you can larger ones. Nor
should you fast pregnant ones.

Is she drinking well? Offer her some low sodium chicken broth.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> We are in about the 3rd week of raw. I had introduced some pork ribs in
> addition to the chicken. Suddenly 3 days ago, Bella my shih tzu
bitch who
> is 3 weeks pregnant, stopped eating.
<snip>
She only weighs about 9lbs, so I am quite concerned at this point.
Should I try
> feeding her something else? If so, what? She is quite a prima
dona, so at first I wasn't concerned too much, but this is going on a bit.
>
> --
> Renate
> 'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. Re: new to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jessica!
Welcome to the raw side! ^_^

This list supports and promotes a species appropriate raw whole prey diet.

Check out these websites;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

And this archived message;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

I'd recommend that you don't concern yourself with planning puppies just
yet, your girl has a lot of growing and maturing yet to do!

I'd suggest that you do a lot of reading of the messages and archives on
this list and printing out information and focus on getting a great raw
feeding plan set up, and start introducing her to it.

TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/7/07, firedestroyer2001 <firedestroyer2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> HI my name is jessica and I am new to raw I have a 12 pound 8 month old
> sheltie and have figured out how much she needs to eat I think? the
> site I went to said feed 60% rmb 35% muscle and 5% organ which means
> she needs 3.4 oz. of rmb 2 oz. muscle and .3 oz organ does that sound
> right should I start by feeding her a cornish hen that has been
> quartered? also I plan on breeding her when she is old enough and I
> find the right stud how do I start the puppies on raw? thanks for your
> help
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (45)
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7a. Please help, Pom is itching!!
Posted by: "Ashley Myers" miragehairsalon@yahoo.com miragehairsalon
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone,
There's such a wealth of info here, I hope someone has a clue as to why my Pom, (3yr) is itching, more than ever. Particularly in her hip area. When she was younger, we had her tested fo allergies Because of itching and vey red skin.It indicated she was allergic to eggs, barley,venison,andyeast, also some grasses,and flies. Could feedng her mainly chicken cause this to worsen? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.We have 3 little dogs, A Pom, Wired haired Dauschund (2) and a yorkie(2). They all love their new raw food diet and seem to be adjusting well except for runny poop. It's been approx. 3 weeks since we started to feed raw.

Also, I had a question about bully sticks, are they ok for a treat? I'm a bit confused on that one, because i believe they are smoked.
Thanks for your help.
Kitty(Mom to 3 sweet kids)

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Please help, Pom is itching!!
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:15 pm ((PDT))

Hello,
First runny poop is usally because of too much boneless meat. Try more
bone. Yes, bully sticks are cooked. I wouldn't do it. And I have
given my dog more fish and the dry skin stops. Some people give fish
oil and that works. Be careful fish can cause diarrhea so maybe the
pills would be better than real fish until the poop gets harder. Good
luck!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: rawfeeding in winter vs summer
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Nancy!
I'm glad your dogs are doing so well on raw!

Just like any change in your dog's environment, like increased activity
level, age, pregnancy, decreased activity level, growth, illness,
maturation, etc. - changes in the weather need to be taken in account when
you feed your dogs.

Performance dogs or dogs who spend a lot of time outside in extremely cold
weather need more food for energy to grow, maintain, repair their bodies and
perform their tasks and play. They need more meatymeat and probably more
fat, as well. They may need to carry more weight to provide an insulating
layer of fat to protect them from the elements.

Each dog is different, so each of them will need varying increases in
amounts of meatymeat, bone, organ, fat, etc.

Only you can look at each dog every day, feel their bodies and judge their
individual needs and tweak their diet as necessary.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/7/07, timbretown <nancy@plateautechcomm.com> wrote:
>
> Hi folks
>
> I'm relatively new to rawfeeding, but my mutts (a border collie / aussie
> mix and a husky /
> beagle mix (I kid you not)) are doing great and loving it... The weather
> has recently cooled
> way down here in northern Arizona (last night was below freezing). My
> doggies spend lots of
> time outdoors and they're way more active now that summer is history.
>
> So I was wondering: Do people on this list feed more during the winter? It
> seems like dogs
> require more calories in the cooler weather... but then again, maybe I'm
> worrying too much.
> BTW, I can't believe how silky and luxurious their fur has gotten.
>
> Nancy R
> Flagstaff, AZ
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: rawfeeding in winter vs summer
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

I would imagine it would depend on the individual dog. If your dogs
spend a lot of time outside, and thus need to use calories to keep warm
(shivering, running around playing, etc) then they will likely need
more calories. If, however, your dogs were like my Greyhound who feels
that the best idea is to hibernate... not so much. ;-)

Shannon H.

> So I was wondering: Do people on this list feed more during the
winter? It seems like dogs
> require more calories in the cooler weather... but then again, maybe
I'm worrying too much.

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: rawfeeding in winter vs summer
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:24 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "timbretown" <nancy@...> wrote:
>
> So I was wondering: Do people on this list feed more during
> the winter?

I live in west Georgia and don't feed my dogs any differently in the
winter than summer. They are much more active in cooler weather but
they tend to get a little chubby in the summer and lose it in the
winter. My advice is just monitor your dog's build and if they start
losing weight, increase the amount fed. Otherwise feed the same.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: overweight PWD
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:11 pm ((PDT))

>You might not want the stomachs, which is tripe, and SMELLS. But it too, is good
>for dogs

I agree! It is not amagical food item but i think,it is goodaddition to menu.

With curiousity of waht tripe really does to dog,I found an article about it on www.greentripe.com, and it was interesting.

If anybody still not reading about tripe articles on the site,you may find it interesting to read.

It said it would give,energy up and skin and coat improvement and,it has enzyme in it to help digest food waht dog eats with tripe,and not only that,tripe has acidphilus?? umm,,
the probiotic agent often found in Yogurt,so, tripe can work like probiotic too.

Probably not as effective as Slippery Elm or probiotic itself but,it said it has it.

The smell made me nausea but,it was worth. my dog likes it and feel great to know i giving her good stuff for body.

yassy

---------------------------------
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:17 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Giselle & Loraine

I think I had been worn down by everyone questioning my rawfeeding
choice. I will go ahead and try Giselle's suggestions first, as
they are less drastic. If there is little improvement, I'll maybe
look into Loraine's ideas, though I have no clue where to find that
stuff. At times like this, I am so grateful to have this rawfeeding
network full of people with experience and non-condemnation!

For the record, no innoculations given with the neutering. Last
week, I had given BoJ several soothing baths, (Mycodex shampoo
with 'pyrethrens,') which helped some, but the itching crept back,
within hours. I actually have diotomaceous earth in my pantry, so I
will give that a try.

Regarding variety/quality of rawmeat, he does get a wide variety,
including lots of smelts, and also plenty of whole prey, thanks to
his bud, Maximus, the cat, who brings him fresh rabbits and
chipmunks. BoJ (the dog) even caught his own bird yesterday! We
have such a bounty that he doesn't always eat it.... but the point
being, he has access to every organ - brains, eyeballs, (and now
beaks,) .... all the gross ones that have those rare, beneficial
qualities. He is stunningly built, like a powerhorse, energetic and
agile. But hairless, sadly. He does not seem to be nervous or
hyper in the least - he plays hard, and sleeps hard. The itches do
wake him up, however, early morning.

I will look into the area treatments, Giselle. Don' know what DAP
is, but maybe it's described in one of your links? I appreciate
everything you suggested, and will do as many as I can.

I will report back!
Lynne & BoJ

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Treat the areas he frequents, if not the entire
> house and yard. D.A.P. Comfort Zone and maybe a Glade diffuser with
> lavender scent can help to calm him, and make him less likely to
scratch.
>

Messages in this topic (21)
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11. New dog, feeding question
Posted by: "raven4519" raven4519@yahoo.com raven4519
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:17 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I recently got a second dog. He is about 3 years old and 85 lbs. He is
a bit heavy, I am trying to trim some weight off of him and am doing
it slowly. So far he has eaten anything I have put in front of him.
(So far he has bad beef, pork, chicken and rabbit)I would eventually
like to get to a gorge and fast schedule with him but really think he
would eat until he exploded.
He was found about 30 lbs underweight on the side of the road. He was
fostered for 5 months so he has had regular meals. He has no feed
aggression issues but is food obsessed.
He is getting about a pound and a half per day (I'm feeding once a day)
now and is loosing weight slowly.
How much do you let your large dogs eat on the gorge days?
I was eyeing a pork picnic roast today for $1.19 per lb.
I can take food from him but he acts like he has done something wrong
when I do or he try's harder to swallow it.
I would like him to he totally full and relaxed for once, but don't
want to hurt him either.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: new puppy-new raw feeder
Posted by: "lorikschaff" lorikschaff@yahoo.com lorikschaff
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:19 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks for your tips, Giselle. I have another question. (I don't know if I am supposed to
start a new subject or who to reply to??)

My question is this:
My 8 week old GSD who I brought home yesterday, had one "logs" poop last night and then
this morning a smooshy pile, and then twice today brown watery. Should I rush her to the
vet or is she adjusting to a new home and food? She plays and drinks water and doesn't go
in the house. Just when I take her out for her time every hour or so.
Thanks for help.

Lori and Baby Athena

Messages in this topic (4)
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12b. Re: new puppy-new raw feeder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

"lorikschaff" <lorikschaff@...> wrote:
>
> I picked up my 8 week old GSD puppy yesterday. The breeder had
kibble out all the time for
> the pups.
*****
Well shore nuf you don't want to follow that route!

She seems to like the chicken thighs since she's had two so far.
*****
Thighs are a good enough place to start, so it's nice she likes
them. Are you giving them with kibble, have you stopped feeding the
kibble, what's the scoop?

> 1. How often should I put food out for her?
*****
I recommend you feed her three times a day to start in order to
reduce the input per meal. Often times pups cannot digest their
necessary nutrition in two meals. When she's four months or so
(depends on the pup, ultimately) you can move to two meals. At a
year (plus/minus) she'll be ready for one meal a day. Again, the
finetuning of all of this will be determined by you and her.

> 2. Do I need to keep water available in her crate at all times?
*****
This is not an issue that requires raw feeding expertise. It is a
crate training question. Please consider reposting all non-food
questions to rawchat or DogHealth or perhaps to a list dedicated to
GSDs or puppies.

> 3. When should I introduce other meats?
*****
Other than what? Chicken thighs? You should feed more of the
chicken than simply thighs. I recommend you buy a few whole birds
and cut them into parts, then feed the parts in various meals to your
baby. If it's too much trouble to cut up whole birds, buy leg
quarters (or singleton legs and thighs), rib-in breasts, and some
backs. Feed these parts in appropriate amounts until you and the pup
are comfortable with them, then buy a tub of chicken liver plus a
package of mixed hearts and gizzareds (both fed as muscle meat, not
organs) and introduce these to your pupby feeding them in small
quantities with the chicken parts you've already been successful with.

When the body parts and the giblets have been introduced you can move
to a second meat. However long that takes is how long it takes. I
prefer to introduce bits of new meat after a week or so, not as
significant hunks but just to bring in a new flavor. If you'd feel
less stressed sticking with chicken exclusively for a while, go right
ahead, but I suggest it is your pup's progress that should determine
when it's the "right" time to add a second meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Croaker/Other Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

"Brigitte Greenberg" <BrigitteGreen@...> wrote:
>> I'm looking to add a little variety to my dogs' diet. I bought
some Croaker
> with the heads, fins, eyes, etc.., still attached. Is this OK to
feed
*****
If they are safe for you to eat they are safe for your dogs to eat.

They
> also had some reasonably-priced Tilapia and I was wondering about
that, too.
*****
Ditto. Although it seems many dogs do not like Tilapia.

> Aside from salmon, mackeral and the occasional sardine, I haven't
been very
> adventurous when it comes to raw fish in the past.
*****
Unless you are aching for protein variety, there's no particular need
to be adventurous with fish. Feed it if you can find it and your
dogs like it, otherwise, 'tain't no big deal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12131

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: How do you calculate?
From: bluegracepwd
1b. Re: How do you calculate?
From: Loraine Jesse

2a. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
From: woofwoofgrrl
2b. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
From: great_dane_devotee
2c. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: raw food
From: carnesbill
3b. Re: raw food
From: costrowski75
3c. black tarry poop
From: Caren OConnor

4a. Re: Feeding Tripe
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
From: Brandi Bryant

6a. new puppy-new raw feeder
From: lorikschaff
6b. Re: new puppy-new raw feeder
From: Giselle

7a. Re: overweight PWD
From: macluerssen
7b. Re: overweight PWD
From: Giselle

8a. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: tantelin22@aol.com

9a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

10.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

11a. Re: Thanks for the advice... raw on a budget?
From: Giselle

12. Croaker/Other Fish
From: Brigitte Greenberg

13. Pregnant and off feed
From: Renate

14a. Re: List on Freecycle
From: Mona

15a. Incontinence
From: Diane Schneider

16.1. new to raw
From: firedestroyer2001

17. rawfeeding in winter vs summer
From: timbretown

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: How do you calculate?
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

Hi Christina,

ok, I'm not in Melbourne Florida, but I am in Melbourne Australia,
or near abouts!

I've been feeding raw to my animals for a long time, and not once
have I ever measured any ratios of bone to meat etc.

Chicken thighs are great.

So, can I suggest, be a little bit easier on yourself, and relax
with it. That's one of the great things about feeding raw - there
is a lot of leeway involved.

Check out my website and I have a couple of documents you can
download (for free of course), with info that can help you:

http://www.bluegrace.com/resources.html

it will also detail the types of meat that you could possibly feed.

And a pit bull requires no different food types to what I feed my
two toy poodles, my ferrets, and my cats!

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: How do you calculate?
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 3:15 pm ((PDT))

Bill,
You make it all sound so simple, then again feeding raw really is simple.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Get them today!
http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

This is an interesting perspective that I have never heard before.
I would love to see any references!
Thanks!
Christinew

> world.
>
> If you want to go ahead and eat your ogranic food and free ranging
> chickens and pasture raised cattle go ahead. If everyone ate like
> that there would not be nearly enough food for even 10% the people
> in this country today.
>
> Instead of whining and crying about agribusiness committing such
> evils, you should be thanking them for feeding the world.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
Without them millions of people would be starving every day. Without them we
> could not possibly produce nearly the amount of food to feed even
> the people in this country let alone the other hungry poeple in the
> world.

> Instead of whining and crying about agribusiness committing such
> evils, you should be thanking them for feeding the world.

Well said, Bill. This is a point that many forget. Thanks for standing up for what many
believe.

Libby

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

+++Mod Note: please take this discussion to raw chat or private. +++++

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@...> wrote:
>
> This is an interesting perspective that I have never heard before.
> I would love to see any references!

You don't need references, you just need to know how to think and
reason. My brother raises chickens. He has 16 chicken houses. Every
9 weeks he raises from hatchlings to ready for slaughter 50,000
chickens per house. That works out to be around 800.000 chickens
every 9 weeks which totals about 4.5 million chickens/year. This is
one farm among many thousands around the country. How many mom & pop
farms with chickens running around the yard free ranging would it take
to produce the 4.5 million a year that just my brother alone
produces? As you can see, without the factory farms, it would be
impossible to produce nearly enough chickens for world consumption.

Now, think about cattle. How many cows are eaten in a day? I have no
clue but I'm sure the number is staggering. It takes one acre of
pasture feeding a cow for 2 to 3 years to make one cow ready for
slauter. You just can't feed the world like that. There isn't enough
acres.

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: raw food
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kennysgirl7"
<chesneygirl007@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys I forget to add something else about the raw food. I
bought
> some beef marrow bones from the foodstore. Do I just give them to
the
> dogs?

Basically you shouldn't feed beef marrow bones. They are too hard
and can and often do chip or break teeth. They also wear teeth
down. Chewing on a marrow bone is kinda like chewing on sandpaper.
Your dog will get more than enough bone chewing in his regular
diet. No need to add more bone.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: raw food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:41 am ((PDT))

"kennysgirl7" <chesneygirl007@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys I forget to add something else about the raw food. I bought
> some beef marrow bones from the foodstore. Do I just give them to the
> dogs? My husband thought they might be messy and he didnt want the
dogs
> going into the living room with it. Will they eat the marrow and the
> bone and all or should I let them take this out on my deck to eat
this?
*****
What you do is toss them. They are sections of cow legs--weightbearing
bones that supported as much as 2000lb. These can be used as weapons!
They are NOT toys. They are dental accidents waiting to happen, their
sharp edges can slice a dog's gums or lips or cheeks.

Scrape out the marrow, if you want, and feed that; toss the bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. black tarry poop
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 4:08 pm ((PDT))

List members -
Please excuse the graphic nature of this post, but after feeding organ meat, what is the reason my dogs' poops are black, tarry, and thick?
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Feeding Tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >Some people feed tripe to the exclusion of other food. I would not
recommend this.
>
> Hi,Chris.What does this sentence mean??
*****
It means some people consider green tripe the perfect food and feed
only that. I cannot recommend this sort of diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

"Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:
>
> I just went to pick up the expired meat and it really looks BAD.
*****
Compared to what you would feed yourself or compared to what your
dogs can safely eat? Big difference I think.

"Really brown" is, effectively, rusted meat. If it's old but not
notably smelly, I think feeding is called for without another worry.
If it's ripe, you have decide what your limits are.

I have purchased (or retrieved from the fridge or from a box sitting
out--lonely and forgotten--on a freezer) some pretty ripe meat and
while I did rinse the stuff for my own sanity I did nothing special
to it for the dogs and they were perfectly pleased. Most
importantly, none of them have ever had digestive distress from
aromatic meats.

It truly is up to you. I'd wager many people sell their dogs short
but you have to live with your choices so do what you think is best.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:08 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Chris - I divided it all up among my 4 and so far so good, and it
didn't smell really that bad. :)

Thanks again you are the best! I wish I knew half of what you know! But
I'm learning - thanks to you and the rest of this group!!!

Brandi

On 10/7/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:
> >
> > I just went to pick up the expired meat and it really looks BAD.
> *****
> Compared to what you would feed yourself or compared to what your
> dogs can safely eat? Big difference I think.
>
> "Really brown" is, effectively, rusted meat. If it's old but not
> notably smelly, I think feeding is called for without another worry.
> If it's ripe, you have decide what your limits are.
>
> I have purchased (or retrieved from the fridge or from a box sitting
> out--lonely and forgotten--on a freezer) some pretty ripe meat and
> while I did rinse the stuff for my own sanity I did nothing special
> to it for the dogs and they were perfectly pleased. Most
> importantly, none of them have ever had digestive distress from
> aromatic meats.
>
> It truly is up to you. I'd wager many people sell their dogs short
> but you have to live with your choices so do what you think is best.
> Chris O
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. new puppy-new raw feeder
Posted by: "lorikschaff" lorikschaff@yahoo.com lorikschaff
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 11:07 am ((PDT))

I picked up my 8 week old GSD puppy yesterday. The breeder had kibble out all the time for
the pups. She seems to like the chicken thighs since she's had two so far.
1. How often should I put food out for her?
2. Do I need to keep water available in her crate at all times?
3. When should I introduce other meats?
Thanks for any advice.

Lori and Baby Athena

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: new puppy-new raw feeder
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lori!
Yes! Fresh water that is freely available is important to
healthy pups and dogs. For potty training purposes, you need to take
her out frequently, after eating or drinking, after playing for a few
minutes, whenever you see her sniffing or circling, upon awakening and
just before your bedtime; mostly, about every 30 minutes during the
time when the family is active. When the pup is alone, she should be
crated, or in an ex-pen with a piddle pad to reduce the opportunities
for inappropriate elimination.

Pups this young generally need to eat at least 3 times a day,
sometimes 4 times, temporarily, until about 5-7 mo. - then 2 meals a
day until about 9-12 mo - then 1 meal a day - and once they reach
their full growth, even every other day.

Regular mealtimes are best for a pup, and make potty training easier
to manage. "Free feeding" is a cr*p-in-a-bag concept, and results in
'free pooping', too!

Here's a few links to info that you will find useful to start feeding
raw to your new pup. You might want to print some of it out, or save
the links in a file for future reference;
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://www.bluegrace.com/puppypack.html

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

TC and keep us posted on your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I picked up my 8 week old GSD puppy yesterday. The breeder had
kibble out all the time for
> the pups. She seems to like the chicken thighs since she's had two
so far.
> 1. How often should I put food out for her?
> 2. Do I need to keep water available in her crate at all times?
> 3. When should I introduce other meats?
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Lori and Baby Athena

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: overweight PWD
Posted by: "macluerssen" macluerssen@yahoo.com macluerssen
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:08 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the insight! I'm sure he's not eating worms, as I've
actually tried to point them out to him on a walk and he won't even
sniff them! Although wouldn't that be a great cheap food source!?!
He does get a great walk every day, and plays with his sister the
mutt, maybe I'll try to get him running up and down the stairs some
more!

I'll start skinning his chicken, and add some turkey to the
mix...should be coming down in price pretty soon! And we've got a
half of a cow coming to us soon from a friend's ranch, so we'll have
some fresh beef "extras" to feed him. Is there anything from the
inside of a cow that we should NOT feed the dogs?

Tina

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: overweight PWD
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tina!
I don't recommend that you SKIN the chicken! Skin is good!
Just remove all the visible pieces of fat (yellow and globby) you can
find. The legs usually carry most of it, but the back has some, too.

Don't have him too do much exercise too soon, for too long, or too
strenuously, either! You don't want injuries, which occur more often
in unconditioned dogs, but calorie burning. Fetching a ball, or just
chasing after a frisbee for 10 or 15 minutes, can be great exercise.
Swimming is a good non weight bearing exercise, and one PWDs are
suited for;
http://www.pwdca.org/activities/waterwork/
Teaching him to carry a back pack on a walk or hike or pull a cart on
the side of the road, or on a trail can be enjoyable hobbies and
exercise for you both;
http://www.wolfpacks.com/#Dog_Pack_Selections
http://www.dogworks.com/

Aside from a lot of the bones, pretty much everything else is edible
from a cow for a dog. Cow bones are mostly too dense for a dog to
consume, you want to feed EDIBLE bone, not tooth breakers. You might
not want the stomachs, which is tripe, and SMELLS. But it too, is good
for dogs. Cow legs, with the hide on, can be good chew toys, but you
want to take the bones away, once the dogs strip them. If you have the
freezer space, tell your friends you want everything they don't!

TC
Giselle

> Thanks for the insight! I'm sure he's not eating worms,
<snip>
maybe I'll try to get him running up and down the stairs some
> more!
>
> I'll start skinning his chicken, and add some turkey to the
> mix.
<snip>
And we've got a half of a cow coming to us soon from a friend's ranch,
so we'll have some fresh beef "extras" to feed him. Is there anything
from the inside of a cow that we should NOT feed the dogs?
>
> Tina

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "tantelin22@aol.com" tantelin22@aol.com tantelindar
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/7/2007 5:09:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

_Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor _
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143651;_ylc=X3oDMTJzcTFrcnY0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzc0MjM1MjYE
Z3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDIxMDgwBG1zZ0lkAzE0MzY1MQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMT
kxNzQ4MTYw)

==================
Give him a bath; if the smell goes away, it means he has a nasty stash
somewhere in the yard and you need to scour the yard for it. :) If the bath
doesn't help, I'd suggest a vet visit; changes in metabolic action aren't
necessarily bad but vets go to school for a long time to learn to distinguish
between health and illness.

<======================================== >
Blessed Be with An Honorable Peace!
Tante Lin

Maxine is my Hero! She says:
My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice.
Don't let aging get you down: it's too hard to get back up!
If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You have another chance!
<===>

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.

**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (119)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Thanks for the advice... raw on a budget?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kim!
Here are links to archived messages about cutting up poultry.
There are recommendations for equipment to make the job easier and safer.
Each one has links to pics to help you out;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/140211
message # 140211

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/131635
message # 131635

This two part video is great for showing exactly where to cut on a joint to
use as little effort as necessary;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1423960175334068846&q=cutting+up+chicken&total=47&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8
http://tinyurl.com/28g7p7

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1991087829865577153&q=cutting+up+chicken&total=47&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9
http://tinyurl.com/26gkmv

You might want to print out the text of the messages and save the pics and
vids to a folder on your desktop for easy reference later.

Keep in mind that, depending on your dog's sizes, you might not need to take
the pieces down to their smallest components. With a medium sized dog that
will eat about a pound a meal, a good sized chicken should be cut into
quarters. You don't have to feed *exactly* 1 lb per meal. A little over or
under a pound at a meal will balance out over a week or so. If you note the
weight of the chicken that you are cutting up, you can divide by the number
of pieces you cut it into, to roughly figure out the approximate weight of
each portion. Say, 4 lb chicken / 4 quarters = 1 lb per portion.

Pretty soon you can just judge by what your dog's look and feel like, to
know whether to feed them more or less food at their meals for awhile.

No veggies, no grains, no fruits. Nope, not needed. Here's links to stuff
that can help you figure out what to feed. you might want to print this info
out, too;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts.html
For help getting your cat started, here's a couple links, too;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

rawfedcats.org
TC and keep us posted on your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>

Well I tried my dogs on the raw food last night and boy did they love it.

<snip>
OK tell me how do you guys cut the chicken. Its slides all over the place on
the plate when you try to cut it.

<snip>

Should I give them vegetables with it?

<snip>

The cat was very picky he wouldn't eat the raw meat.

<snip>

Thanks for all your help guys.

Kim Y
Beachwood NJ

>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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12. Croaker/Other Fish
Posted by: "Brigitte Greenberg" BrigitteGreen@msn.com bgreenberg1a
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 4:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi there,

I'm looking to add a little variety to my dogs' diet. I bought some Croaker
with the heads, fins, eyes, etc.., still attached. Is this OK to feed? They
also had some reasonably-priced Tilapia and I was wondering about that, too.
Aside from salmon, mackeral and the occasional sardine, I haven't been very
adventurous when it comes to raw fish in the past. I guess I'm looking for a
little reassurance. :) Please advise, and thank you in advance.

Brigitte Greenberg
http://www.GreenwoodWhippets.com
(301)681-5470 or email: BrigitteGreen@msn.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Pregnant and off feed
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 4:22 pm ((PDT))

We are in about the 3rd week of raw. I had introduced some pork ribs in
addition to the chicken. Suddenly 3 days ago, Bella my shih tzu bitch who
is 3 weeks pregnant, stopped eating. I just kept taking it away and
bringing it back. As far as I know she's eaten nothing except maybe cat poo
in 3 days. I'm getting worried now. In these circumstances should I
persist? I tried sprinkling her chicken with garlic (which she usually
loves) and she still wouldn't eat it. She's been sleeping a lot but that
started a couple of weeks ago and I put it down to the pregnancy. She only
weighs about 9lbs, so I am quite concerned at this point. Should I try
feeding her something else? If so, what? She is quite a prima donna, so
at first I wasn't concerned too much, but this is going on a bit.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:02 pm ((PDT))

I get meat on freecycle and have always been to the person's home to pickup.
I have never had anything bad happen and have met a few really nice people.
I would become suspicious if the person wanted me to meet them somewhere
other than their home or if I didn't like what I saw when I went to their
home to pickup. So far, so good and I've gotten about 3 big black garbage
bags filled with meat in the last few days alone. Some of the meat I had to
dispose of because they gave me sausages etc too and of course we can't use
that, nor could I use the cooked poultry scraps or the cold cuts that were
frozen for obvious reasons, but the rest was chicken, a whole turkey, pork
roasts, beef roasts, ground beef (I can fill kongs with this, yea!). IMHO,
if you have a bad feeling about something, go with your gut instinct.

Mona

"Please consider the following: -strangers can be evil. You just
never know if a stranger has added poison, antifreeze, or other
harmful things to your pet's possible food. Saving dollars is not
worth the life of your pet. Please just wait for really great sales
or find a cheaper, natural alternative to BARF."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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15a. Incontinence
Posted by: "Diane Schneider" dianeschneider1@gmail.com schneiderdiane
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Does anyone know any reason why a raw diet might be responsible for
incontinence? Before I take my dog to the vet to get this checked out I
am just wondering if it could be diet related. She has been on a raw
meat and bone diet for a few years now but I must admit that we have
just stuck with chicken. I do feed her chicken livers and hearts plus
fish oil capsules as well. Could this be a chicken allergy or something??

Further, and this may be off-topic, has anyone had experience with
either drug or hormone treatments for incontinence that would like to
share their experiences? If too off-topic please PM me.

Diane

Messages in this topic (2)
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16.1. new to raw
Posted by: "firedestroyer2001" firedestroyer2001@yahoo.com firedestroyer2001
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

HI my name is jessica and I am new to raw I have a 12 pound 8 month old
sheltie and have figured out how much she needs to eat I think? the
site I went to said feed 60% rmb 35% muscle and 5% organ witch means
she needs 3.4 oz. of rmb 2 oz. muscle and .3 oz organ does that sound
right should I start by feeding her a cornish hen that has been
quartered? also I plan on breeding her when she is old enough and I
find the right stud how do I start the puppies on raw? thanks for your
help

Messages in this topic (44)
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17. rawfeeding in winter vs summer
Posted by: "timbretown" nancy@plateautechcomm.com timbretown
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi folks

I'm relatively new to rawfeeding, but my mutts (a border collie / aussie mix and a husky /
beagle mix (I kid you not)) are doing great and loving it... The weather has recently cooled
way down here in northern Arizona (last night was below freezing). My doggies spend lots of
time outdoors and they're way more active now that summer is history.

So I was wondering: Do people on this list feed more during the winter? It seems like dogs
require more calories in the cooler weather... but then again, maybe I'm worrying too much.
BTW, I can't believe how silky and luxurious their fur has gotten.

Nancy R
Flagstaff, AZ

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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<*> To change settings online go to:

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12130

There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bullies/Kongs (was A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Laurie Swanson

2a. Re: How do you calculate?
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Thanks for the advice... raw on a budget?
From: kennysgirl7

4a. raw food
From: kennysgirl7

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Bullies/Kongs (was A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 4:59 am ((PDT))

I buy the 36" bully sticks for my Boston and they last better.

Also, just another plug for Kongs--stuff them with ground meat and
freeze for further challenge. Keeps my dog busy for 1/2 hr.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: How do you calculate?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:20 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maurwyck" <Maurwyck@...> wrote:
>

> I'm new to the raw scene and I've done a lot of reading
> and question
> asking but I can't figure out how to calculate how much is
> bone how
> much is meat and how much is organ.

Don't worry about exact percentages. If you feed 35% bone, its no
big deal. Just feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. At
this point feed chicken parts and you will be ok. Slowly, over
time, add other animal parts to the diet. Nothing is exact. No two
people feed exactly the same. It is very difficult to get it wrong.

> If I do that the would increasing the chicken thighs give him
> too much bone?

No, not even close. I would use larger parts than thighs though.
He could probably handle leg quarters or bone in breasts or backs
very well at his size. Just stick with chicken parts for a couple
of weeks.

> I don't want to mess it up to the point I'm causing problems.

You won't. The worst problem you can cause is diarrhea and he will
get over that in a day or two.

> If there's anyone in Melbourne, Fl I would love some
> one that could show me, because I can't figure it out reading
> and I
> want to do this with confidence instead of second guessing myself
> constantly.

The problem is, you can get 3 people to help you and all 3 would
tell you something different. Everyone feeds differently. There is
no carved in stone way to feed a dog a raw diet. Feed a variety of
animal parts from a variety of animals is the key. You want to
work up to that variety very slowly. It should take a couple of
months to get a real variety into his diet.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://wwww.rawmeatybones.com

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Thanks for the advice... raw on a budget?
Posted by: "kennysgirl7" chesneygirl007@aol.com kennysgirl7
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:44 am ((PDT))

Hello

I have a question about raw food for everyone. Well I tried my dogs
on the raw food last night and boy did they love it. I thought they
might not. So we cut it in little pieces and smashed the bones up as
my husband was nervous about giving them a bone right off the bat.
Ok tell me how do you guys cut the chicken. Its slides all over the
place on the plate when you try to cut it. Maybe I should put it on a
cutting board and cut it. But its so bloody. How do I know how much
to give them. I know for my dog size its 1 lb each but how do I know
how much that would be. Should I give them vegetables with it? I'm so
overwelmed I just dont know what I should start with first. The cat
was very picky he wouldnt eat the raw meat I'm going to try him on a
little chicken tonight see if maybe he might like the chicken
instead. Thanks for all your help guys.

Kim Y
Beachwood NJ

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi!
> You forgot to tell us your name.
>
> Have you seen Lis' List?
> Its a great compilation of ways to find free or cheap meat;
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618
> Post #139618
>
> You can use your local chapters of; http://sfbay.craigslist.org/

>
> http://www.freecycle.org/

> to find free or cheap freezers to keep the meat you find in, too.
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
> > Thank you for the advice... keep it coming. I just moved to a
new town
> > and am going to seek out a good butcher. Also going to add some
> > different protein sources. They do get organ meat occasionally,
but
> > probably not often enough. My biggest concern is trying to feed
a good
> > healthful raw diet without breaking the bank. Any advice on how
to
> > feed raw on a budget?
> >
> > Thanks!
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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4a. raw food
Posted by: "kennysgirl7" chesneygirl007@aol.com kennysgirl7
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:44 am ((PDT))

Hey guys I forget to add something else about the raw food. I bought
some beef marrow bones from the foodstore. Do I just give them to the
dogs? My husband thought they might be messy and he didnt want the dogs
going into the living room with it. Will they eat the marrow and the
bone and all or should I let them take this out on my deck to eat this?

Kim Y
Beachwood NJ

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12129

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond

2a. Feeding raw egg (was: A Report)
From: annemariekruit

3a. Re: First Week
From: rlayt

4. ADMIN:Signing and Trimming
From: GWB

5a. Re: Feeding Tripe
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: there's no denying the evidence! I t really works!!
From: Giselle

7a. Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: annartisan
7b. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
7c. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: carnesbill
7d. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: Giselle

8a. {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
From: Brandi Bryant
8b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Kathie Middlemiss

10. group removal request
From: mary

11a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Meredith Soriano
11b. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
From: carnesbill

13a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
From: linoleum5017
13b. Re: Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Questio
From: Loraine Jesse
13c. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
From: Giselle

14a. How do you calculate?
From: maurwyck
14b. Re: How do you calculate?
From: Brandi Bryant

15a. overweight PWD
From: macluerssen
15b. Re: overweight PWD
From: Carol Dunster
15c. Re: overweight PWD
From: Giselle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the reply my back spasms have eased up a bit today but got 283 emails to get through so who knows after that.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 October, 2007 10:09:46 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, Gail Edmond <windybond1@ ...> wrote:
>
> thanks for the reply i think you are probably right it is me at fault.

Hi Gail,
I really didn't mean it was your fault in a bad way. Actually, its a
compliment that you love your dogs so much that you are worried about
their health and are getting back spasms sitting over you computer
trying to learn about raw feeding. I was lucky when i started feeding
raw, my 3 dogs took to it instantly. I didn't have to use the tough
love approach, so i can only imagine how hard it is to pick up their
food and know they didn't eat. In the same token, when my son was
young, he's 18 now, he became an Oreo cookie and Lucky Charm cereal
connoisseur. When i had to finally tell him no junk food allowed, it
was hard on me because he did the 3year old tantrum thing. I was able
to stay the course because i knew i was right. So, what i'm trying to
say is that by staying strong, you are doing the best thing for your
dogs. It seems hard to you because you probably aren't for sure, as
in 100% sure, that you are doing the right thing, but i can tell you
that from my experience with my dogs, raw feeding is the best thing
that i ever did for them. Honest. How is it going today? KathyM who
is positive that no one on this list thinks that you are stupid
because "Everyone who got where he is, started where he was."

___________________________________________________________
Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (39)
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2a. Feeding raw egg (was: A Report)
Posted by: "annemariekruit" annemariekruit@yahoo.ca annemariekruit
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 8:08 am ((PDT))

This works for me: I put an egg down on the patio for each dog, whole
and intact. The shep/lab mix bites it and eats the whole thing. The
sheltie gently picks it up and sets it down on the grass. She bites it
until there's crack in it, then licks what comes out. Eventually she
gets the whole thing cleaned out, but doesn't like to eat the shell.
The shep/lab cleans it up then. Anne-Marie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> When you crack the egg in half you can just put the eggshell down
along

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: First Week
Posted by: "rlayt" rlayt@bresnan.net rlayt
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 8:08 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the advice!

Robin L.
Helena MT

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. ADMIN:Signing and Trimming
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika@comcast.net kioqua
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

Several mails have been deleted over the last couple of days because
they were either unsigned, untrimmed or both. The moderators simply do
not have time to baby sit adults. BOTH are required for ALL members of
this list and all the other lists we moderate. If "you" can't be
bothered to sign your name or trim the mail "you" are responding to,
we don't have the time to do it for you.

Both are easy and simple to do.

questions or comment-

rawfeeding-owner@yahoogroups.com

Gerry Brierley-mod dude

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Feeding Tripe
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

>Some people feed tripe to the exclusion of other food. I would not recommend this.

Hi,Chris.What does this sentence mean??

I am feeding meat,bone,organ,plus little bit of Tripe. Is this ok? I rotate between Tripe and Egg.

thanks,

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: there's no denying the evidence! I t really works!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Marisa!
Ah, emergency hospitalizations are the PITS, whether it
happens to you, or your dogs. Last thing you needed then was to be
worrying about your dogs.

If it had happened to me, I would have played the "Oh, poor me, this
terrible thing is happening to me! Poor dogs, I can't take care of
them properly, I'm soooo worried about them." card, and gotten his
utter compliance through sympathy. *VBG

NEVER underestimate the power of whining! ^_^

TC
Giselle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marisa" <mrsdog_lover@...> wrote:

> Yes Giselle, you are perfectly right!!
> I will do from now on, the problem was that in this occasion, it was
> an EMERGENCY ADMISSION in the hospital, and I didn't have time to buy
> other food and make the portions to facilitate my hubby, but I did
> show him my dogs TEETH, and he had the same face of DISGUST as
> before!!!...HA-HA.HA!!!
>
> marisa

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "annartisan" annartisan@yahoo.com annartisan
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

We've been feeding our now-5-month-old puppy a raw diet for about a
month now. We started with chicken quarters and noticed within a few
days time that the familiar "doggie odor" completely disappeared and
he smelled fresh as a daisy. After a week or so of chicken (and
occasional ground turkey), we added venison to his diet. Roughly ten
days or so later, his coat developed a strong odor. My daughter
calls it a "fishy" smell, but my husband and I both think it smells
like raw chicken. It's really strong... you can smell it on him when
you're standing over him and he's lying on the floor.

I did a search on coat smells here and ran across one person last
December who posted that his/her dog's breath smelled fishy after
eating venison, but in our puppy's case it's definitely not the
breath... I've stuck my nose right in his mouth and sniffed and
there's no odor at all. My husband thought it might be because he's
playing with/rolling around with his raw chicken, but I watch him eat
and that's definitely not happening. (Also, his entire coat has this
smell, not just around his mouth or neck.)

I'm posting this in the hope that someone here can offer a possible
reason for this odor and how we might get rid of it. I'd hate to have
to stop feeding the venison as he absolutely loves it and we have
about 70 pounds of it in the freezer!

Thanks for any help anyone can offer -

AnnA

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:31 pm ((PDT))

Mine eat venison and don't have any weird smell. Are you sure there isn't any chicken in the backyard, somewhere that he has stashed away somewhere, like a private place, and he's going to it, and rolling in it? I've heard of animals smelling like the food they eat, and my dane sometimes does, but he has really rolly skin under his lips; we have to keep it clean after feedings. So he smells like whatever we are feeding him at the time.
But if you are feeding venison, he shouldn't smell like chicken:) Venison has a really ripe smell, I know, I've skinned my own, and my dogs won't eat it fresh, only frozen. (smells less then) So maybe check out the yard, for hiding spots. And does it have large loose lips, that food juices can get stuck in, like mine, then that could be a problem too:)? Just a couple of thoughts, hope you work it out, nobody likes a stinky dog, but at least he smells like dinner:)
Jeni

----- Original Message ----
From: annartisan <annartisan@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2007 2:00:15 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Coat has strong, disagreeable odor

We've been feeding our now-5-month- old puppy a raw diet for about a
month now. We started with chicken quarters and noticed within a few
days time that the familiar "doggie odor" completely disappeared and
he smelled fresh as a daisy. After a week or so of chicken (and
occasional ground turkey), we added venison to his diet. Roughly ten
days or so later, his coat developed a strong odor. My daughter
calls it a "fishy" smell, but my husband and I both think it smells
like raw chicken. It's really strong... you can smell it on him when
you're standing over him and he's lying on the floor.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer -

AnnA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
I'm also thinking he has found something to roll in. Check him close
and see if the smell is coming from either the side of his face, his
neck or his shoulers. If so, he's definately rolling. :) :) :)

Mine eat venison with no odors.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:42 am ((PDT))

Hi, Anna!
If you're not giving the pup any supps or no one is slipping
him other foods as treats, it may just be his body's reaction to an
all venison diet.

Put him back on chicken for a week or two, give him a bath in a gentle
oatmeal or pure castile shampoo, and see if that makes a difference in
his body odor.

If it does, then you'll know. You might need to add chicken back into
his diet, and/or introduce other proteins regularly, to dilute the
effect of the venison.

In what form are you feeding the venison? What kind of parts? With
bones? What about organs? Is he getting his 3-5% liver?

Is there any change in his coat? Texture? Oily, greasy? Dandruffy,
flaky skin?

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
we added venison to his diet. Roughly ten
> days or so later, his coat developed a strong odor. My daughter
> calls it a "fishy" smell, but my husband and I both think it smells
> like raw chicken. It's really strong... you can smell it on him when
> you're standing over him and he's lying on the floor.
<snip>
> I'm posting this in the hope that someone here can offer a possible
> reason for this odor and how we might get rid of it. I'd hate to have
> to stop feeding the venison as he absolutely loves it and we have
> about 70 pounds of it in the freezer!
>
> Thanks for any help anyone can offer -
>
> AnnA
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

I just went to pick up the expired meat and it really looks BAD. On the
package - it says what it is and then it says something in spanish but it
does say that's it's been inspected by...the meat what I can see of it is
really brown - is it still alright to fee?
Thanks

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Expired meat looks iffy!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> I just went to pick up the expired meat and it really looks BAD.

I have fed some meat so raunchy that we had to deoderize the
kitchen. :) :) :) It's probably ok to feed. Dogs are good at
handling rotton meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:31 pm ((PDT))

costrowski75 wrote:

Do you mean real pups as in youngsters or are you using the term
affectionately?

I mean real pups. Both are about 14 weeks old.

One is a female lab/shepherd mix female at about 20 pounds. (She's a
rescue, her age is an estimate at best).
One is a male Labrador retriever at about 30 pounds.

I've seen the knuckles and the neck bones. I was mainly looking for
something to scatter around inside where they like to nap.

I've gotten them pigs feet, which they like to hide in the yard until
they're really mud encrusted and generally gross looking. And as I said
they *just* finished off a shoulder after a three day rampage with it.
I have two others in the freezer. They typically get chicken quarters
or halves. The only real "easy" meat I've given them are chunks of beef
heart (I can't find it whole around here though I have a line in on a
Spanish grocery which may carry them) and lamb pieces labeled as 'stew
meat' though they're cut in thick steak and rib sized chunks. No one
seems to buy them at the grocery so I very often get them with a
'manager's special' coupon of $1-2 off.

I also have a woman giving me a lot of 2 year old (always kept in deep
freeze) venison, hopefully there will be some roasts in there and it
won't be all ground.

Kathie

Messages in this topic (8)
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10. group removal request
Posted by: "mary" maryndug2@sbcglobal.net douglas_witter
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:31 pm ((PDT))

Thanks , please remove me from this group and I wish you all and the
dogs the very best .
Mary

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:31 pm ((PDT))

WOW!!!!! The language!! LOL ok

YQW=your quite welcome?
TC= take care?

did I get it right? =]

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Meredith!
YQW!
TC
Giselle

> That was very helpful...Thank you so much!!

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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11b. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT))

You sure did! ^_^

Giselle

> WOW!!!!! The language!! LOL ok
>
> YQW = you're quite welcome?
> TC = take care?
>
> did I get it right? =]
>
> "The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they
regard animals"
>
> Meredith

Messages in this topic (10)
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12a. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
>
> I sympathize entirely with those who are concerned or
>conflicted about
> supporting the commercial meat industry by buying meat for
> their dogs.
>

By far, most everyone on this list is younger than I am. I can
remember the days that small family farms could feed the world.
That is no longer the case today. I remember a book from the late
1960's or early 1970's called "The Population Bomb". In the book
statistics showed that by the mid to late to mid 1990's it would be
impossible for the earth to produce enough food to feed the human
population and that world wars would be fought over food.

Obviously that didn't happen and there is no evidence that it will
happen in the foreseeble future. For that you can thank the huge
factory farms. The orginazations you call the evil agribuisness is
responsible for millions of people not starving today.

The reason they did this is that there was little government
inteference and the ability to profit from their successes. Either
would have eliminated the very businesses that are feeding the
world. These companies are in business to make a profit. They are
not charities.

I really get tired of hearing people whine and cry about how the big
evil greedy agribusinesses are ruining the world. Without them
millions of people would be starving every day. Without them we
could not possibly produce nearly the amount of food to feed even
the people in this country let alone the other hungry poeple in the
world.

If you want to go ahead and eat your ogranic food and free ranging
chickens and pasture raised cattle go ahead. If everyone ate like
that there would not be nearly enough food for even 10% the people
in this country today.

Instead of whining and crying about agribusiness committing such
evils, you should be thanking them for feeding the world.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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13a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 8:42 pm ((PDT))

Chris,

My dog has had a terrible reaction such that he has scratched all the
fur from his back end, and also under his arm pits ever since he was
neutered 7 weeks ago. I finally took him to a new vet (homeopathic)
the other day, and her first question was, 'What are you feeding him?'

I hoped to have a vet that was supportive, but still I was
cautious. "Meat," I said.

"So you rawfeed?" she asked. "Also organs, skin, fat, bones..." I
shot back. (This is when I wish I had lied and said 'kibble,' so she
would actually look to find the real reason for the fur loss.)

To no avail. "Aha, that's your problem," she stated. "Not enough
nutrition." She began to try to sell me vitamins, supplements, ad
nauseum.

I told her that the raw diet was more than outstanding all my dog's
life, and that he had unbelieveably great fur up until the time he was
neutered. Was it not more reasonable to consider the fur-loss related
to his neutering experience?

Her reply was that it may be simply an allergy to fleas..... ok.....
so she gave me flea medicine. Several days later, (now,) and he is
less itchy, but has continued fresh lesions, etc. from I don't know
what.

I have no intention of returning to this vet.... but now I am running
out of potential veterinarians..... the neutering one is out, the
blaming-the-rawdiet one is out... where do I go for help? My dog is
still in fur-distress. His once luscious fur is now pasty,
diminished, and a point of contention.

I defend the rawdiet, but even my 'friends,' now say things
like, "Well, now that he's low on testosterone, the rawdiet cannot be
sufficient....give him vitamins, give him vegetables, give him
kibble!"

Please send me some encouragement.

Thank you,
Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
; you'll be told that
> through the wolf's interaction with man, it has come to need carbos
and
> vegetation. >

Messages in this topic (20)
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13b. Re: Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Questio
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:01 pm ((PDT))

He could be reacting/allergic to one of the proteins (meat) or, is it possible that he picked up some sort of mange/mite or, what not from the veternarian clinic when he was having the surgery? You might want to consider thyroid too?
If he was mine I would try spraying him with collidial silver and give him some internally as well as giving him salmon oil, vite e, vite c, some kelp and a wee bit of garlic. Oh and a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to the water. JMHO
Lorainewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

_________________________________________________________________
Are you ready for Windows Live Messenger Beta 8.5 ? Get the latest for free today!
http://entertainment.sympatico.msn.ca/WindowsLiveMessenger

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Messages in this topic (20)
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13c. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:22 am ((PDT))

Hi, Lynne!
It could be a reaction to fleas, or mites, or a tick bite.
Sensitive dogs can itch for a looong time after just one bite, and it
can become a vicious Catch 22 situation - he scratches and bites
because he itches, and he itches because he scratches and bites.

Since he's had surgery recently, (and inoculations?) his immune system
may have taken a hit, and his resistance to environmental attacks
weaker than usual.

An overgrowth of mites is not an unreasonable supposition. If his
immune system is not working as well as it had been, the mites that
live on all dog's skin can take advantage and overpopulate.

I'd recommend that you look to his diet and refocus your efforts on
obtaining more quality and variety of protein, organs and body parts
or even whole prey to your feeding plan, to boost the variety of
nutrients he can derive from his food and provide even more nutrients
to support his immune system through this assault.

You can bathe him in a soothing non allergenic, additive free oatmeal
or pure castile shampoo when he's itchy. I wouldn't put a bunch of
stuff on him to try to quell the itching, maybe dust him lightly with
diatomaceous earth. Treat the areas he frequents, if not the entire
house and yard. D.A.P. Comfort Zone and maybe a Glade diffuser with
lavender scent can help to calm him, and make him less likely to scratch.
http://www.herbspro.com/61311/PureCastileLiquidSoap.htm
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html
http://www.amazon.com/Farnam-Comfort-Zone-Plug-Dogs/dp/B0002AB9FI
http://www.glade.com/fragrance-oils/

You could even add Salmon or Fish Body oil to his diet, to boost the
Omega 3s. Make sure there's no additives, such as soy or Omega 6s, or
plant oils or flavorings.

http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

btw, it can take months for testosterone to flush from a dog's system.

> My dog has had a terrible reaction such that he has scratched all the
> fur from his back end, and also under his arm pits ever since he was
> neutered 7 weeks ago.
<snip>
where do I go for help? My dog is
> still in fur-distress. His once luscious fur is now pasty,
> diminished, and a point of contention.
>
> I defend the raw diet, but even my 'friends,' now say things
> like, "Well, now that he's low on testosterone, the raw diet cannot be
> sufficient....give him vitamins, give him vegetables, give him
> kibble!"
>
> Please send me some encouragement.
>
> Thank you,
> Lynne

Messages in this topic (20)
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14a. How do you calculate?
Posted by: "maurwyck" Maurwyck@hotmail.com maurwyck
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:01 pm ((PDT))

Hello-
I'm new to the raw scene and I've done a lot of reading and question
asking but I can't figure out how to calculate how much is bone how
much is meat and how much is organ. I know you use a certain percentage
of bone in the diets weekly but how do you determine if you're giving
that percentage? I've started my pit pup who weighs 25lbs on chicken
thighs and I give two a day mixed with kibble thinking this would ease
the process but reading some of the posts I see I should just stop the
kibble. If I do that the would increasing the chicken thighs give him
too much bone? And what type of meats/bone would be appropriet for his
form and mouth. I don't want to mess it up to the point I'm causing
problems. (I know there's not an exact science) But for some reason I
just can't get it. If there's anyone in Melbourne, Fl I would love some
one that could show me, because I can't figure it out reading and I
want to do this with confidence instead of second guessing myself
constantly. thank you for all the help
Christina and Drake
Maurwyck@hotmail.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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14b. Re: How do you calculate?
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:47 am ((PDT))

>>>>I'm new to the raw scene and I've done a lot of reading and question
asking but I can't figure out how to calculate how much is bone how
much is meat and how much is organ. I know you use a certain percentage
of bone in the diets weekly but how do you determine if you're giving
that percentage? I've started my pit pup who weighs 25lbs on chicken
thighs and I give two a day mixed with kibble thinking this would ease
the process but reading some of the posts I see I should just stop the
kibble. If I do that the would increasing the chicken thighs give him
too much bone? And what type of meats/bone would be appropriet for his
form and mouth.<<<<

Welcome! Ok you want to do 2 - 3 % of your dogs ESTIMATED adult weight.

You want to feed 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ. A good way to tell if
you're doing the right percentages is that if you give too much bone you're
dog will become constipated, if you give too much organ your dog will get
diaherra. Your feeding chicken thighs and kibble (opps sorry guys k***le)
DROP the crap in the bag donate to your local animals rescue or animal
pound. Go buy yourself some whole chickens cut them up and give them to
your dog. 25lb puppy I would give thigh and chicken breast in the morning
and give like a leg quarter and wing for dinner. There's nothing wrong with
mixing it up and experimenting. Take it slow, after a week or two add
another protein like turkey or pork! Then maybe start out with a tiny
sliver of organ, liver is better.

For a puppy you feed twice a day some even say to feed 3 times a day. If
your puppy gets to "fluffy" back off of the amount, and if your puppy gets
to skinny up the amount. Right now since your just starting out just
concentrate on just chicken, don't worry too much about the organs. I think
some of your whole chicken come with the organs. (am I right guys?)

And don't be afraid to ask questions! These guys on here are great -

Hang in there you'll get it and your dog will thank you for it!!

Brandi

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok

Messages in this topic (2)
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15a. overweight PWD
Posted by: "macluerssen" macluerssen@yahoo.com macluerssen
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:01 pm ((PDT))

My PWD has been on raw food for almost a year, and we're very happy
with the diet. I also have a "pound puppy" mix. The PWD is 6 years
old, and although I have trimmed his daily meal to just about 1
pound/day, he doesn't seem to be losing any weight. He is currently
about 64 lbs., and should be around 60. We were initially feeding him
1.5#, then trimmed it back to 1.25#, and finally we've been feeding
about 1# for the past 2 months. He lost a couple of pounds, but I
would've expected much more than this. The mixed breed is 3 years
old, also just about 60 lbs. and looks very trim. We feed her
1.5#/day, and she has been holding this weight. We're currently
feeding almost exclusively chicken (we buy whole and cut ourselves)
and occasionally fish, if I can find it cheap enough. We feed frozen
solid so that the dogs don't gulp their food in one minute! The PWD
has always been a bit of a food hound, the kind that'll steal food off
your plate if you leave it in reach. Should I be concerned, or should
I cut back his food amount even more?

Thanks,
Tina

Messages in this topic (3)
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15b. Re: overweight PWD
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:47 am ((PDT))

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 05:41:52 -0000, you wrote:

>The PWD
>has always been a bit of a food hound, the kind that'll steal food off
>your plate if you leave it in reach. Should I be concerned, or should
>I cut back his food amount even more?

Well... this may or may not be applicable, but we had a Silky Terrier
once that we were trying to condition for the show ring. She was
constantly way fat and growing a wonderful coat. My friend cut her
food back and cut it back some more. She cleaned the yard so the dog
didn't eat poop... finally one night she found out what the dog was
eating.

She lives in wet country and, at night, these huge earthworms would
come up out of the wet soil and her dog was gorging on them! Turns
out, she checked into it, they are highly nutritious, high protein and
fat. Certainly her dog grew the most gorgeous coat eating them. How's
that for raw food?

I thought I'd mention it in case you, or anyone else with an
unexplained fat dog, lives in wet country. It's one more thing to
consider. Also it may be a great source of raw food for some? I'm sure
you can grow them - these were the great big night crawlers.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (3)
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15c. Re: overweight PWD
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:09 am ((PDT))

Hi, Tina!
First of all, I'd be sure he really needs to lose the 4
pounds. Some dogs, left to their own devices, will carry a little more
or less, weight than we'd consider ideal for them, but they're fine at
it. Don't try to make him toe an imaginary line in the sand, just
'cause the breed standard, his breeder, or 'the experts', or
'everybody' says he *should* weigh less. Every dog is unique.

If he *really* needs to lose the 4 pounds, then, I'd increase his
activity level. Not justs walks, but running and jumping and chasing
balls. Don't let him do anything too extreme and increase the level,
intensity and duration of his activity gradually.

Some dogs systems are more efficient than other's; they're what are
called 'easy keepers'. This efficiency can make it more difficult to
reduce their weight when needed.
2% of his estimated ideal adult body weight @ 60 lbs is; 19.2
or 1 lb 3 oz
3% of his EIABW @ 60 lbs is; 28.8 or 1 lb 13 oz.

2% of his EIABW @ 64 lbs is; 20.48 or 1 lb 4 1/2 oz
3% of his EIABW @ 64 lbs is; 30.72 or 1 lb 14 3/4 oz

You are now feeding little more than 1 % of his EIABW.

You could add some leaner meats to his diet; rabbit, venison, even
turkey isn't as fatty as chicken. Beef heart is a great lean
meatymeat. You could trim visible fat from any chicken you feed.

If he still doesn't lose any weight, consider having a full panel
thyroid check done; inability to lose weight, even on a restricted
diet and unusual hunger can be signs of hypothyroidism. Have your vet
send it to Dr Jean Dodds, she will make a specialized evaluation and
diagnostic report, given the findings;
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/diagnostic_testing.htm

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My PWD has been on raw food for almost a year, and we're very happy
> with the diet. I also have a "pound puppy" mix. The PWD is 6 years
> old, and although I have trimmed his daily meal to just about 1
> pound/day, he doesn't seem to be losing any weight. He is currently
> about 64 lbs., and should be around 60.
<snip>
The PWD
> has always been a bit of a food hound, the kind that'll steal food off
> your plate if you leave it in reach. Should I be concerned, or should
> I cut back his food amount even more?
>
> Thanks,
> Tina
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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