Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 22, 2007

Saturday, December 22, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12411

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: mozookpr
1b. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: Michelle Grabert
1d. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: Sandee Lee
1e. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: homesforallpets

2a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: mozookpr
2c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Laura Atkinson
2d. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Yasuko herron
2e. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: pamela993748

3.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
From: Jo

4.1. Re: Newbie Questions
From: carnesbill
4.2. Re: Newbie Questions
From: homesforallpets

5a. Re: hip dysplasia
From: Sandee Lee

6.1. Re: Nature designed diet?
From: carnesbill

7.1. Re: need some advice
From: Laura Atkinson
7.2. Re: need some advice
From: homesforallpets

8a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Jill Coleman

9.1. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
9.2. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cypressbunny
9.3. Re: So I decided to switch/loose stools & big meals
From: Laurie Swanson
9.4. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Yasuko herron

10. To worry or not to worry?
From: tobrlaka

11.1. Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
From: Jerri Buiting
11.2. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
>
> Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
> month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7. A bag of
> chicken breasts costs $9. Turkeys whole are going for $1.25 to $2
> per pound depending on brand but I'll look day after Christmas.
Get
> paid Monday, will look for stuff on sale. For dogs its ok if it
> doesn't have much people shelf live left right??
>
Sometimes you really do get what you pay for. Read the ingredients
on that cheap kibble. Seven bucks a month is probably too much for
what's in it!

I am new to raw feeding, but I AM an experienced "guerilla shopper."
<g>

I don't know where you live in Missouri, but I those prices are
SCARY! I live in NW Missouri, and I got chicken leg quarters
recently for 39 cents/lb., and can get them any time for about 50
cents. This is one time that cheaper is better. Don't pay someone
to skin and bone chicken for your dogs, it is better for them as is.
Quarters with the bone or whole chickens will be much cheaper than
that bag of breasts. Leg QUARTERS (not drumsticks or thighs) seem to
be cheapest of all. Look for pork shoulder. I have gotten it for as
little as 89 cents/lb. The bone is good, too, lots better than the
wreck bones grocers usually sell for dogs. My sheltie is still
chewing on the one from yesterday's lunch. It's not a meal anymore,
but it beats the heck out beef leg bones, which can chip teeth.

I have noticed prices are up this week, with Christmas dinners
looming ahead, but lots of that meat will probably be on sale after
the holidays are over.

I'm still new to this, and since one of my dogs is picky and the
other will eat anything, but gets very poopy when I rush her with new
items, I am holding off on offering "ripe" meat. However, I am very
eager to beg "throwaway" meats from friends (old, freezer-burnt, and
the like) when I feel confident the dogs are ready for them. There
is some good free stuff right there. Many grocers discount meat that
is approaching its human-consumption expiration date. Look late at
night or first thing in the morning to pick off these bargains. I
have gotten perfectly good meat for myself this way, provided I was
going to cook or freeze it that day.

Dogs don't have to have eggs, but those that enjoy them get a brain-
teaser and a snack all at once (and a bit of entertainment for you,
too -- watching a dog with a whole egg in the shell can be lots of
fun!)

You mentioned a cat, too, I believe. Is it also raw-fed? If so,
rats (not babies, but not huge, either) would be ideal whole prey.
If you are not raw-feeding your cat and want to start, be aware that
the transition can be slower than with dogs, and cats should never be
deprived of what they WILL eat to hurry the process.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but bargain-hunting is a passion of mine,
and mixing it with raw-feeding is simply irresistible.

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sorry that is what I meant, all animal nothing else.

Cool. :) :) :)

> So no eggs or milk or anything like that?

Eggs are good food later in the diet. If I remember correctly you
are just starting. You can feed whole eggs in a month or two with
no problem. Milk or other dairy products are never good to feed.

> Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
> month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7.

You've got to be feeding Ol'Roy, the lowest of the low quality dog
foods. You asked the perfect question ... You CAN'T get that much
meat for that price. The reason is that there is almost no meat in
the food you are feeding. Pure economics says so. Dog food
companies don't get real meat for free. The food you are feeding is
90% ground yellow corn, soybean meal, ground wheat, and corn syrup.
See any meat in there? What little meat is in it is road kill stuff
and euthanized pets. Now do you understand why its $7 for 40#?

> I'll look day after Christmas. Get
> paid Monday, will look for stuff on sale. For dogs its ok if it
> doesn't have much people shelf live left right??

Its ok if its weeks past people shelf life. :) :) :)

> Thanks. I am trying to find local folks to buy odds n ends
> off of.

Cool, thats the way to go. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST))

why is Milk or dairy products bad for them? they like Milk..and cottage cheese and yogurt...and such,,it is bad for them? michelle

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sorry that is what I meant, all animal nothing else.

Cool. :) :) :)

> So no eggs or milk or anything like that?

Eggs are good food later in the diet. If I remember correctly you
are just starting. You can feed whole eggs in a month or two with
no problem. Milk or other dairy products are never good to feed.

> Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
> month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7.

> I'll look day after Christmas. Get
> paid Monday, will look for stuff on sale. For dogs its ok if it
> doesn't have much people shelf live left right??

Its ok if its weeks past people shelf life. :) :) :)

> Thanks. I am trying to find local folks to buy odds n ends
> off of.

Cool, thats the way to go. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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1d. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:07 pm ((PST))

Dairy products aren't species appropriate. Once weaned, many dogs become
lactose intolerant. They are high carbohydrate, high sugar...none of which
dogs require and could produce digestive upsets, feed yeasty problems, etc.
If they are nothing more than occasional treats and your dogs don't have any
problems with them, you can feed a little.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Michelle Grabert" <chalienme@yahoo.com>

> why is Milk or dairy products bad for them? they like Milk..and cottage
cheese and yogurt...and such,,it is bad for them?
michelle

Messages in this topic (13)
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1e. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bluegracepwd" <janea@...> wrote:
>
> Wow, you can just imagine the quality, or absence thereof, in a
> product that costs so little.
>

I KNOW, big reason I want to switch to raw. I was feeding Eagle Pack
to my old dog. It was better than the stuff I can get now.

> So the trick is to find suppliers that will give you a good quality
of
> food, without breaking the bank. The person who pays the most for
> food doesn't win some sort of imaginery competition.

If I could have Dairy goats where I am I would I know they have to
kid every year to produce milk, that would give us goat meat. I
could advertise looking for goat meat from dairy goat owners. . . Are
there any good online places I can order from?

Also we happened to go by Walmart (only grocery shop in town that is
reasonable) and a lot of stuff is marked down due to shelf life.
Like Turkey necks, chicken liver, ground chuck,
ground "hamburger". . .Are bone in Beef back ribs ok to offer?

>
> I'm very lucky where I get a range of food delivered to my house.
I
> pay nothing for delivery, and whole goats and sheep cost me $10-$15.
>

Wow, wish I could get some suppliers like that. Course I probably
need a second freezer now huh?

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab

Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

Hi Sheryll,

Yes, it should be 2-3% of her ideal adult weight, so you could probably add
some more food and see if that satisfies the girl! :)

Ribs and poultry are bone heavy and tilapia is pretty lean. Add some more
nice red meat and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@yahoo.com>
I feed her beef back ribs, eggs, tilapia, pork shoulder, turkey butts,
a range of offal, and an occasional cornish game hens. My boyfriend
thinks that I feed a bit more bone then meat but I've recently changed
to feeding her the whole chicken as opposed to chicken parts. For
awhile, she was getting fed ribs and offal alternately, because I
could get a good price on it.

As for her ideal weight, I was feeding her 3% of what she weighs. But
as a puppy I couldn't see feeding her as a 70lb dog. Is that where I
went wrong?

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Maggie Smith" <redkeds@...> wrote:
>
> sorry - eating cat poo and trash are behavioral issues, not hunger
> related.
>
> stick with the 3% - adjust up or down as needed. how does she look?
>

To clarify: you are speaking in terms of expected adult weight,
correct? A puppy receiving that precentage of its CURRENT weight would
be hungry indeed.

Wendy

Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:04 pm ((PST))

Yep, that's where you're off. For puppies, you either feed 10% of their
current weight or 3% of their estimated adult weight. I go with the
estimated adult weight and adjust as needed for each individual. Because
then I don't have to weigh the darn puppy each week! I let my puppies get a
smidge plumper than the adults, 'cause the growth spurts seem to happen over
night and then they're lean again.

Robin, for instance, at 10 months old, is still eating around 1 lb a day.
But she's a trim, active puppy (she went out and did 5 miles this AM with
Daddy and the rest of the team). If I were determined to stick to 3% of her
anticipated adult weight, I'd have a malnourished puppy. Her big brother,
Blaze, who is 2" taller than she is and about 15-20 lbs heavier, eats about
the same amount. If I were stuck on a "chart" I'd either be WAY
underfeeding her or way overfeeding him.

So, go feed your puppy :-)

As for her ideal weight, I was feeding her 3% of what she weighs. But
as a puppy I couldn't see feeding her as a 70lb dog. Is that where I
went wrong?

Sheryll and Sherman

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2d. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:00 pm ((PST))

>She's extremely fond of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry dog.

HI.I do not think that one of hungry dog signe be poop eating.Dog eats poo because poop has some undigested thing I hear. Or leant by mother who eats litters poo to clean the den.Or,dog learn the habit in puppy mill because without eating poo,the den of his or hers akways be dirty. I saw it on Animal planet program that has poop eating black lab.

> Should I increase the amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?

2-3% is just a guideline but are you feeding 3% of estimated ADULT weight??

Some people mistake and feed 3% of current weight for puppy but for puppy,you want to feed % of estimated Adult weight.

It was my feeling you maybe feeding 2-3% of current body weight..

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2e. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "pamela993748" pamduthie@btinternet.com pamela993748
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:14 pm ((PST))

Hi there
I have a 9 month old pup who has been on raw for about 1 month
He did not eat well on kibble - about 25% of what he should have (on
a good day)
As he is a cross I have no idea what his ideal weight is when fully
grown
So when I started up I went for 2% + a wee bit more of his current
weight
He also seemed vv hungry ( so glad to see him eat)
he is fairly lean because of not eating well on his last diet
So I have tried increasing his food but any time I give him extra he
is sick in the night or has runny poo
- if I give him the 2% (ish) he has had no problem with any food I
have given him but upping the food does not seem to work for him

Should I slowly increase the ammount or is there foods that are
higher fat that I should be feeding him (I dont want him fat - we
are going to do agility soon - but I can feel his spine and all his
other bones a bit too easily so I want to put a small amount of meat
on him)

At the moment his staples are chicken wings and legs, lamb and beef
hearts, liver (whatever is cheep) kidneys, tripe, whole small fish
and some turkey, beef, pork and lamb chunks (awaiting the local
delievery where I will be able to get a little more viarity but at
the moment that is all I can get pretty cheep in the supermarket)

Sorry if I am hijacking the question - I thought it was relivent to
the origonal (and I am new so scared to start my own question :o) )

Pam (and Ben)

Messages in this topic (11)
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3.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
Posted by: "Jo" mistielass@yahoo.co.uk mistielass
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:34 am ((PST))

Hi Giselle

> BTW, did you give her the chance to re eat it?

Yes she did re eat it. It cost too much to throw away. LOL

> Just remember, less is more, gradual is better than all at once.

Yes I did get a bit over excided with it all. I will know in future. If
she had been used to it was it the right quantity, or was it still too
much for an experienced dog?

Regards
Jo

Messages in this topic (34)
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4.1. Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Darjeelingirl"
<darjeelingirl@...> wrote:
>

> overwhelmed at the moment about how I'm going to find
> good, affordable raw
> meat (that's not full of antibiotics and hormones, etc.) for
> the pets and
> how to do it all...

I just shop at the grocery store. I order some things in bulk to
save money. Chicken does not have hormones in it. I don't worry
about the other meats anyway.

> I guess my first practical question is: Where do you all buy
> your meat?

Grocery store and from people cleaning out their freezer. I get a
good bit of deer meat like that.

> Can you actually find whole rabbits and such?

You usually get them from a breeder. Look for one in your area.

> Where do I find guidelines
> about how much to feed our dog, being a puppy and all?

Check out my web page listed under my signature below.
A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

> And since our puppy
> is ALWAYS hungry and hunting for food, I need to ask what time
> of day do you feed your dog?

That is entirely your choice. Feeding times just don't matter.
Some people feed on a strict time schedule and some feed at random
times.

> Does he get it all at once or divided up throughout the day?

A puppy will get 3 or 4 meals a day. As he grows up, you can feed 2
tmes a day or once or every other day if you wish. Again, this
choice is entirely yours. It makes no difference in the health or
happiness of your dog.

> In general, who are the most trusted experts in this field?

The ONLY one I trust is Dr. Tom Lonsdale.

> What books should I read?

I highly recommend "Work Wonders", by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can
either get it at amazon.com or dogwise.com or download it in PDF
format from www.rawmeatybones.com.

Just click on the picture of the
book on the first page.

> Why do many rawfeeding places encourage owners to mix the food with
> grains/veggies?

Because all through their lives they have been taught to "eat your
veggies and frits" or you won't be healthy. They can't mentally get
away from that with their carnivores.

> Are there any real, live rawfeeding support groups in MN?

Don't know but you have the internet. Thats all you need. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (31)
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4.2. Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

> I guess my first practical question is: Where do you all buy your
meat?
> Can you actually find whole rabbits and such? The kids and I eat
mostly
> vegan so I am not too familiar with the meat world.
>

Hi! Go to www.arba.net and look for breeders near you. Many rabbit
breeders are in MN and sell to Raw feeders. Good luck!

Kathy in MO
Anngel - Black Lab

Messages in this topic (31)
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5a. Re: hip dysplasia
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

Maradeth,

I agree with Giselle that your diet is far too poultry heavy and bone heavy.
Dogs require red meat and lots of it. And no veggies...they do not consume
the stomach contents (and some veggies can be inflammatory). If you want to
take some weight off, get rid of the carbs and the marrow bones.

I am also wondering about the exercise....1-2 miles per day for a large
breed puppy with hip problems sounds like a bit much. Something like
swimming would be excellent exercise without putting strain on the hips.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "maradethc" <maradethc@yahoo.com>

Luckily, we have a contact at a large local food distributor. The
chicken we feed is mostly backs, but is sold as "parts". It is
mostly bad cuts of backs, but we find legs, wings, necks, etc. We
get it in 40lb lots, usually 4-5 boxes at a time.

In addition to vegetables, the veggie mix we feed contains ground
chicken, as well as organ meat. The organ meat consists of mostly
liver (beef and pork), along with kidneys, spleen, and heart (all
beef and pork). Most of this we find at local hispanic markets. We
also add raw eggs (protein) and yogurt. We don't feed whole
carcasses; the veggies are to simulate stomach contents found in a
whole carcass.

Sometimes we find whole (skinned) lamb or pig heads, we usually get
those when they are available - once or twice a month. They pork and
beef feet on about the same frequency.

We give meaty beef bones 3-4 times a week. They get all the meat
off, get the marrow, but don't consume the bones. Their teeth look
amazing!

Messages in this topic (16)
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6.1. Re: Nature designed diet?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:13 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Bill, I'm feeding variety and generally the right percentages but
> I wonder if I am really approximating fully the nature
> designed meals.

You aren't right this moment. You will be in a month or two. In
the mean time, don't get too concerned about it. Your dogs will do
just fine. :)

> My dogs don't geerally get the benefit of the hide,
> head components,
> and other parts that nature would have provided

Doesn't matter. Think about it. The hide is hair and skin. Hair
is indigestable and passes right through. Skin has no nutrients
that aren't in muscles and bones. It's just skin.

> ... non poultry is
> skinned and poultry has no feathers.

Feathers are not very nutritious either.

> Just makes me wonder if I could
> be missing something.

No, you are not. There are more than enough nutrients in meat,
bones, and organs from a variety of animals. If you are concerned,
the USDA has a web site that list the nutrients in most any piece of
meat you could possibly feed your dog. Check it out. If you find a
needed nutrient missing, let me know. I won't be holding my
breath. :) :) :) The site is:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Be sure to enter the
word "raw" in your search criteria.(raw chicken or raw beef, etc.)

> My barn cats take down little birds all the time. All that
> is left is
> a few feathers and not enough it seems to cover the bird.

Same here. My cats also catch rabbits and squirrels and chipmonks.
Sometimes they eat it all. Sometimes they just kill it and leave
it. Cats are vicious little critters. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (28)
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7.1. Re: need some advice
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

You're feeding her as much as I feed my 23 1/2", 60 lb, top of the standard
intact male Siberian Husky, which is to say...you're feeding her TOO MUCH
food.

Cut her back to about 3/4 of a lb a day, split into however many meals (I'd
go with 2 meals, but if she stays loose, go with 2 meals and a snack) and
see if that doesn't clear things up after a few days.

Siberians are very fuel efficient animals. That's been bred into them for
eons, because of the nomadic lifestyle of their early early ancestors.

My spayed, adult girls, with weights in the 40 lb range (give or take a
couple pounds) get around 1/2 a lb...a couple ounces either way...but never
always up :-) My neutered males, who are all in the 55+ range get around
3/4 of a lb..again, a couple ounces either way, but never always more. My
intact females, who are in the 40 lb range, get the same as the neutered
boys..and the intact male gets over 1lb a day.

On Dec 22, 2007 7:21 AM, adkjoe17 <j2dope17@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have been feeding my 14 week old Siberian husky raw for almost
> almost 3 weeks now. her ideal adult weight is about
> 45lb. I have been feeding her about a pound of food total a day give
> or take a couple ounces. maybe i'm over feeding but it doesn't seem
> like it.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (61)
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7.2. Re: need some advice
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:00 pm ((PST))

> She has pudding poop for the last few days, last night she woke me to
> take her out to poop 4 times.

Is it rank? I mean really foul smelling? Is she changing her eating
habits at all? Any vomiting? I ask because sudden runny stools like
that can be an early indicator of parvo. If caught early it IS
treatable and I have seen dogs recover.

GIANT chance its NOT but I figure best to check right?

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (61)
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8a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Jill Coleman" aquilter16@hotmail.com aquilter16
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:07 pm ((PST))

Hi CG, I see somebody did get back to you with some recommendations - go for it! Yes, she is back to normal, I guess I am a bit anxious to do things right and got ahead of myself!!! I can imagine how anxious you are to get your pup. I am thrilled with my Hannah - 5 months old now. My son has a 2 year old male, then moved out and I missed Diesel more than my son LOL - so had to get another - Great dogs, would love to correspond with you after you get yours - male or female??? If I can lend any advice let me know. Jill and Hannah

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: qigong@bluebottle.comDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:54:27 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe

Hi there,I'm glad you got your dog sorted, I would say stick with the rawfeeding it really is the way to go!I'm getting a Dobermann pup in Feb'08 and was wondering if anyone hadadvice on raw feeding a young pup? If you have any links that may beuseful that would also be appreciated. I have a source of minced greentripe and chicken, I just happened to ask and a reasonably localgreyhound breeder feeds his dogs this way and is willing to sell mesome for my dog. So a new freezer in the sales is in order and get it stocked up forFeb. Looking forward to our new pup!Cheerscg

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Messages in this topic (15)
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9.1. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:07 pm ((PST))

Thank you
I am starting to let go of my crazy worrying. It is hard, I still live
at home and my entire family thinks I am crazy and going to kill my dogs.
I will feed just a chicken thigh/breast meat for a week and see how
they do, they woke me up 3 times last nigh to go outside. But their
gas is virtually gone today and I think it was due to the pigs foot.
If all goes well I will be back in a week to try and introduce more
cow meat into them.

But just to be safe what are the symptoms of a dog with a bone
splintered in their stomach, or a parasite?

Madie

>
> If it makes you feel better you can feed whatever you want. You
> aren't harming your dog. You are not doing him any good either.
> Suppliments just aren't necessary. Very few people here give
> supplements unless its for a known physical problem. Everything is
> contained in the prey animal. Nature designed it that way. If it
> wasn't so, we wouldn't have carnivores.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (28)
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9.2. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
>
> But just to be safe what are the symptoms of a dog with a bone
> splintered in their stomach, or a parasite?

*** Bones splintered in the stomach is the natural result of eating
bone-in meats. Both the stomach and the intestines are extremely
resistant to puncture. So, the primary symptom would be a happy dog
that just got done eating. Stomach acids dissolve bone. Problems with
bone can occur if the dog eats dry-cooked bone, or very dense bones
like beef knuckles or cut up cow femurs that are too hard to chew but
small enough to swallow. In most cases, though, they just come back up
again.

*** Parasites in commercial meats are extremely uncommon. The symptoms
would depend on the parasite in question. Is there a particular one
about which you are worried?

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (28)
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9.3. Re: So I decided to switch/loose stools & big meals
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:28 pm ((PST))

Hi Madie,

I may have missed something in one of the past posts but I saw at one
point I think you said you fed a chicken leg quarter. I just wanted to
mention that if you fed that to a 15# dog, that's a really big meal and
could cause lots of runny poops (especially for a newbie raw dog). You
might want to keep the meals a bit on the smaller side as well as
limiting variety, in the beginning. The pigs' feet are fatty, though,
so that could be the culprit, too.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
> I will feed just a chicken thigh/breast meat for a week and see how
> they do, they woke me up 3 times last nigh to go outside.

Messages in this topic (28)
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9.4. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST))

>if the dog eats dry-cooked bone, or very dense bones like beef knuckles or cut up cow femurs that are too hard to chew but small enough to swallow. In most cases, though, they just come back up again.

Hi.Before switching to rawfeeding,I made mistake;feeding hambone from Christmas Dinner which I thought that would be big Jack pot for her. Then,next day,she pooped golfball-like hard hard poo couple of hours and then,one point of time in the day,her poop went to south;major major diarrhea,and woke us up middle of the night and I had to bath her and crate too...Bad miserable days for her and us.. After the switch and before switch when I started resarching on rawfeeding,I learnt cooked bone was no no and I do not give her any cooked bone anymore..

If dog ate bone and could not digest well enough,you may see bone bits in the poo too while you just switch t o new protin's bone with meat.But it will go away after some times..

yassy

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Messages in this topic (28)
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10. To worry or not to worry?
Posted by: "tobrlaka" tobrlaka@nwi.net tobrlaka
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:14 pm ((PST))

Hi group:
I've been a member for quite a while: I have a 8yo Eskie who has eaten
raw since we got him from rescue, about 6 years ago. He LOVES
anything....he will stand and lick the refrigerator any time of day or
night, hoping, I guess, that magically some new meaty thing will
present itself. He acts like he is always ready to eat. It's almost
sad to not be able to feed him as much as he wants because he tends
towards plump, anyway, and his bum rear leg restricts his exercise, so
definitely a potential to chunkiness. He should weigh about 20-22#,
so he gets about 8oz/day.

We adopted a spaniel mix, maybe 1-2 years old, from the shelter a few
months ago. I've been feeding her raw, as well. She does well with
anything "chicken," although there was some adjustment period, with
her routinely regurgitating the "knuckle" part of drumsticks. She's
past that now, though.

They get some beef, pork, and some turkey, but generally boneless,
(and not very often, due to expense)because she always regurges the
tip of the beef rib (and it sounds like she's bringing up a house when
she does), and I'm afraid pork and turkey bones would be even more
troublesome.

I'd like to take advantage of the anticipated post-holiday sales of
pork and turkeys....but aren't turkey bones just too splintery for 20#
dogs? I never get them pork necks, either, because here, they are
sold in small bony chunks, and again, I'm shy of giving her that size
of bone, figuring she'll do the 12-hour later herking fest, or hurt
herself with a bone that "solid."

I'd like them to get more variety....but I'm shy of the bony parts,
aside from chicken........

I'd appreciate any words of wisdom........thanks already.
Brenda
Jack the Eskie
Sophie the Faux Eskie

Messages in this topic (1)
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11.1. Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
Posted by: "Jerri Buiting" jerribuiting@yahoo.com jerribuiting
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:14 pm ((PST))

Hi~

I decided to start Mocha on the raw food diet and went out and bought a
couple of chickens and an extra package of liver/gizzards since most everyone suggested I start out with chicken. I determined the weight of food to start out as 1.1 pounds, so I put a couple ounces of gizzards and the rest the cut up chicken. She won't
touch it. She took it out of my hand and promptly dropped it on the floor and walked away. I tried feeding it to her by hand for a few minutes and she just got frustrated (so did I)!

I've looked at a few more entries and sites. Some say to start introducing the raw diet with cooked meat and cooking it less and less every day. I'm worried about the bones then -- do I grind them up and cook them with the meat since cooked chicken bones are what is bad?

Most of what I read indicates that dogs LOVE the raw food--of course, why could I have it easy? Any ideas out there?

Thanks~

Jerri & Mocha
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Messages in this topic (28)
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11.2. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:23 pm ((PST))

Jerri,

Just put it in a bag in warm water. What part did you give her? You can
slice into the meat in several spots to give her a starting point...even
smash some Parmesan down into the slices. Chicken is really bland compared
to kibble so you just need to "spice it up" a bit. And if you have any
kibble in the house, get it out there! :))

You could quickly sear the outside but you don't want to cook the chicken
and certainly not bone!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jerri Buiting" <jerribuiting@yahoo.com>
> I decided to start Mocha on the raw food diet and went out and bought a
> couple of chickens and an extra package of liver/gizzards since most
everyone suggested I start out with chicken. I determined the weight of food
to start out as 1.1 pounds, so I put a couple ounces of gizzards and the
rest the cut up chicken. She won't
> touch it. She took it out of my hand and promptly dropped it on the floor
and walked away. I tried feeding it to her by hand for a few minutes and
she just got frustrated (so did I)!

Messages in this topic (28)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12410

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: MORGAN LEWIS

2.1. need some advice
From: adkjoe17
2.2. Re: need some advice
From: costrowski75
2.3. Re: need some advice
From: katkellm

3a. starving into submission?
From: logbreath2000
3b. Re: starving into submission?
From: katkellm
3c. Re: starving into submission?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: So I decided to switch
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: homesforallpets
5b. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: homesforallpets
5c. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: bluegracepwd

6a. Re: small dogs/big parts?
From: katkellm

7.1. Newbie Questions
From: Darjeelingirl

8a. Nature designed diet?
From: Mary Tinder

9a. Re: hip dysplasia
From: maradethc

10a. Re: Offered Fish
From: Heather
10b. Re: Offered Fish
From: bluegracepwd

11.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
From: Jo
11.2. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
From: Giselle

12a. HUNGRY DOG
From: ohyeachampion
12b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Maggie Smith
12d. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: bluegracepwd
12e. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: ohyeachampion
12f. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: bluegracepwd

Messages
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1a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

I like Bill's answer. The reason most of us went to RAW to to give our 4 legged friends a better life, Quit worrying about the diet, give your pet a good variety - meat, bone and organ. Nothing fancy is necessary, "wolves don't go to Walmart or a local Deli". For the past 3 1/2 years I have been feeding RAW; chicken, pork, turkey and beef - all the hearts I can get my hands on (their favorite). During that period they have had 3 annual physicals, OFA X rays, thyroid and Cardiac test (also for OFA), they passed all with flying colors, and their teeth were clean (something that the elder dog had always had problems with). During this same period of time, we have not had to worry about Kibble Recalls (including the Brand that the oldest had been fed); no vacines, and happy energetic dogs.

So I ask each of you this Holiday Season - Worry less and enjoy more. Merry Christmas
Morgan and his Angels

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
>
> After just a few days on this list, I realize that you veterans
> of the
> raw scene answer the same questions over and over from us newbies.

You noticed that, did you? :) :) :)

> 1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood
> test on Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.

I never do a blood test on mine unless there is a physical reason to
do so. If they look happy, healthy, and energetic with a good build
and shiney coat, I see no reason to fatten the vets pocketbook with
tests that will tell me all is ok anyway.

> 2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little
> mutt, should
> I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds?

Pounds don't matter, looks do. If she is short haired, you should
be able to see her back rib or two without being able to see her
hips or spine. If she is long haired you should be able to tell the
same things by feeling.

> Or would you suggest weighing her regularly?

My dog's get weighed once a year when they go to the vet for
heartworm check. Weighing is just standard proceedure when a dog
goes in there. I don't even have the vet give them a checkup while
they are there for the heartworm test unless I have noticed
something unusual, which is rare.

> I want to learn how to be
> in tune as much as possible with her body.

It just takes a little time. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2.1. need some advice
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

I have been feeding my 14 week old Siberian husky raw for almost
almost 3 weeks now. She has been eating mainly whole chickens and I
have given her a little lamb and sardines twice so far. I'm going
slow. her poop was starting to become normal until the past few days.
She has pudding poop for the last few days, last night she woke me to
take her out to poop 4 times. 11pm, 3am, 7am, and she pooped again at
930am. They were all VERY loose, pretty much just dripping out of her
butt. Before I make an expensive trip to my non-understanding vet, can
someone give me some advice? I have not changed the type of chicken I
have been giving her or anything. I'm not one to worry either, the
loose stool doesn't bother me because she always does it outside so It
doesn't really worry me. Can someone tell me some sure signs that the
dog could have worms or parasites? her ideal adult weight is about
45lb. I have been feeding her about a pound of food total a day give
or take a couple ounces. maybe i'm over feeding but it doesn't seem
like it. For her to have to poop that many times in the night just
seems wrong. I can't find any holistic vets anywhere in my area so I
hate taking her to the vet unless it is absolutely necessary, sorry
for the long post but I need some advice, thanks!!

Joe

Messages in this topic (59)
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2.2. Re: need some advice
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>> She has pudding poop for the last few days, last night she woke me to
> take her out to poop 4 times. 11pm, 3am, 7am, and she pooped again at
> 930am. They were all VERY loose, pretty much just dripping out of her
> butt. Before I make an expensive trip to my non-understanding vet, can
> someone give me some advice?
*****
Regardless of how appropriate the amount seems to be, you might well be
feeding too much. And certainly the easiest change to make is to cut
back. So cut back. Skip a meal or a day. Then reduce amounts, limit
her to one meat she's previously been successful on, pull the skin,
pluck the fat, make sure she's getting adequate bone. And feed
smaller, multiple meals (reduced amount, increased meals to feed it in).

Also think back to stuff she might have gotten into--standing water,
other-species poop, garbage, fatty table scraps?

If she's acting okay just pooping badly, I'd wait simplify and wait it
out; but if she's out of sorts and certainly if she's showing
discomfort you should consider a vet. Don't worry about the holistic
issue, many holistic vets are neither keen on or up to speed on raw
diets. Go to a vet you trust. You can tell the truth or lie about how
she got herself into a lot of raw meat, your choice. If you think "raw
diet" will skew objectivity, by all means lie.

Good luck and let us know what happens.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (59)
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2.3. Re: need some advice
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:21 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
She has been eating mainly whole chickens and I
> have given her a little lamb and sardines twice so far.

Hi Joe,
Another thing to consider is that you might have introduced the new
proteins in a not so digestive friendly way. If you rule out health
issues and get her firmed up again on chicken, you might want to try
just adding a small bit of one new protein to her chicken. Feed a
little more of the new meat while gradually decreasing the old meat.
Little bites of this and that could be the problem. Sardines are
probably not a good new protein choice for now. KathyM

Messages in this topic (59)
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3a. starving into submission?
Posted by: "logbreath2000" elisabethlasser@sbcglobal.net logbreath2000
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

70 lb dog Charlie has been on raw for almost 3 month. I estimate about 1.7lb of food per
day - sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes he skips a meal.

I feed him twice a day: bone and meat in the morning, meat only in the evening. His poop
reflects what he has eaten: concrete- like when he had bone (he strains), soft/runny, when
he had a meat meal or liver added.
Only a few times is he normal in between.
The new thing is that he sometimes only poops once a day.
What can I do to get his poop to be of normal consistency? Is it because he doesn't eat
much verity?
He's only been getting lamb , beef and the bones and the livers thereof- because he eats
this with relish and no fuss. In the last 2 days I have started to add small amounts of pork,
which he ate to begin with.
Yesterday he ate a thick slice of beef shank, cleaned out the marrow, left the bone but left
the pork also.
My aim is for him to eat all meats; especially meat that is reasonably cheap and easy to
come by in Los Angeles.
The problem is that he doesn't like any poultry - feeding him chicken is stressful for me:
he leaves it, walks away - I take it up, give it to him for his next meal - he refuses it, and
so on.
By the time it's been in and out of the fridge for 2 days, the fridge starts to stink of ripe
chicken.
Q: Should I take the hard route and feed him nothing but chicken until he learns to love it?
( he does love it when I cook it)
Once or twice I have starved him into submission - I almost had a nervous breakdown. He
was fine.
When the chicken stinks to high heaven, I give in and cook it a bit - I'm fed up with
wasting food -he eats it - and has diarrhoea. Same with turkey.
This is a dog that is food possessive;
when I `borrow' another dog to come in at mealtimes he inhales his food -whatever it is -
with the speed of lightening- lest the other dog should get any ideas about having his
food. I used to have to borrow dogs when he was on Panacur (liquid) for a week 6 month
ago and didn't want to eat his food trenched in medicine. Worked like a charm.
But let's face it, this is far too much fuss: this dog eats better than I do, more
consideration is given to HIS well being than mine - that I am writing this long post speaks
volumes.....

Happy Xmas to you all
Elisabeth & LogBreath (Charlie)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: starving into submission?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "logbreath2000"
<elisabethlasser@...> wrote:
> 70 lb dog Charlie has been on raw for almost 3 month. I estimate
about 1.7lb of food per
> day - sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes he skips a meal.
> I feed him twice a day:

Hi Elisabeth,
I'm with you on wasting food. So with that in mind, the first thing i
think you need to do to get Charlie eating better is to drop down to
one meal a day. Bigger pieces seem to make eating more fun for my
dogs, not to mention challenging and a better dental cleaning. I also
think that one meal will help regulate his stools.

Charlie doesn't have to love chicken, but because of cost, i wouldn't
let him refuse it. I would feed a couple of days worth of "what
Charlie loves" meals and then offer chicken. Don't fuss or hover or
cajole him to eat. Present the food, wait 10 min and if he doesn't
eat it, return it to the fridge. No treats, no sadness, and nothing
to eat til the next day. Repeat until he eats. I think Charlie is
way smart and knows his mom loves him and will do what ever it takes
to make him happy. Time to do something to make Mom happy. If you
think the chicken is bad after a few days, it probably really isn't,
but if its bad to you its bad, put it in the freezer in between
presentations. It will still be good to feed and won't smell to you.
Its time that Charlie appreciated the hard work that the hunter,
that's you, put into getting food for him. Its time you gave yourself
a break and recognized what a good job you are doing with your dog. I
love the fact you love your dog so much. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: starving into submission?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "logbreath2000"
<elisabethlasser@...> wrote:
>
> The new thing is that he sometimes only poops once a day.

Don't worry that he only poops once a day. Thats a good thing and
not uncommon for raw fed dogs.

> What can I do to get his poop to be of normal consistency? Is
> it because he doesn't eat much verity?

I think that is probably a contributing factor. He is getting rich
meat and intermittent bones.

> My aim is for him to eat all meats; especially meat that
> is reasonably cheap and easy to come by in Los Angeles.

That would be chicken and turkey.

> By the time it's been in and out of the fridge for 2 days,
> the fridge starts to stink of ripe chicken.

Possibly you are leaving it out too long. Chicken should last 4 or
5 days in the fridge. Leave it out 10 minutes and take it back up.
It won't have time to cool down very much in that amount of time.

> Q: Should I take the hard route and feed him nothing but
> chicken until he learns to love it?

Thats what I would do. I wouldn't care if he loves it or not. I do
care that he eats it.

> Once or twice I have starved him into submission

No you haven't. You offered him food and he refused it. It was his
choice not to eat. Don't blame yourself for his decisions. Don't
get upset when he doesn't eat. That only encourages him to hold out
longer. He can feel you getting ready to cave. Don't feel sorry
for him. The food is there for him to eat if he wants to eat.

> But let's face it, this is far too much fuss: this dog eats
> better than I do, more consideration is given to HIS well
> being than mine - that I am writing this long post speaks
> volumes.....

Everything you said in the previous paragraph were decisions you
made yourself. Make different decisions. It's amazing sometimes
how people make the same decisions over and over and expect
different outcomes. You have to make a different decision to get a
different outcome. Decide that it's your responsibility to
determine the dog's diet and he has no input. You will decide what
he eats and when. You decide on feeding practices that make life
easy for you. He is a dog. He can adjust. One of you has to
adjust. It's better if its him.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:07 am ((PST))

"cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...> wrote:
>I grew up with a dietitian mom, and a very
> strong holistic background.
*****
Dietitians are well rewarded for creating nutrition where none or
little would naturally exist but feeding a species appropriate diet
doesn't need to be made nutritious, it IS nutritious. How best to feed
grain to a wolf? This would indeed need a dietitian, and yes, the
dogfood industry is very reliant on dietitians to make silk purses out
of sows' ears. How best to feed meat to a wolf? Use the guidelines
provided by Ma Nature.

Holistic practices may fall short when addressing the physiological
needs of animals other than human. Often (which isn't to say always)
even an astute holistic practitioner will attempt apply to other
species the "rules" that best serve humans. A holistic dog should be
regarded first as a dog, not a human; after which appropriate measures
can be taken.

Even though I eat rather well I still take
> vitamins and minerals, I don't understand why a dog wouldn't?
*****
It depends on what you eat rather well. If you stick to grassfed
meats, free ranging poultry, wild game, organically grown leafy greens
and include little grain (and only whole grains) in your diet and you
use raw dairy products, then you probably don't need supplemental
vitamins and minerals. If you feed yourself according to how the
goverment wants you to eat (the human equivalent of the AAFCO dogfood
standards), yes, it makes sense that--although you are eating "well"--
you would not necessarily be eating "right" for your species, and
supplements would not be superfluous.

I think the basics are simple: the closer an animal eats to its species
appropriate diet, the fewer dietiary supplements the animal needs.
Every species has its own appropriate diet. The further the diet is
from species appropriate, the more important supplements become.

Yes, if you intend to feed your dogs a significantly inappropriate diet
(hmm, like commercial dogfood) then yes, supplements either at the
manufacturing level or at the time of ingestion might well be
recommended.

For our dogs, it's easier to feed an appropriate diet than it is to
figure out how to support an inappropriate diet.

For me
> primal would be like a vitamin. Is this make any sense?
*****
It makes sense that you have been taught to think this way. It doesn't
make sense to ascribe to Primal virtue where none exists. All Primal
can do is hope to emulate that which Ma Nature provides free or charge
in species appropriate food.

Certainly it would be more cost effective, if one feeds a profoundly
limited menu, to supplement with a doggie multi-vitamin. It would
offer peace of mind and no more artifice than pre-fab food does, and
would save money to use in upgrading the menu. But the most honestly
holistic way of feeding a dog to take the lead from Ma Nature.

I think I will
> feel better once their bodies are adjusted and I can feed more than
> just plain chicken
*****
Absolutely. The sooner you can get a variety of high quality
ingredients into them, the more confident you can be that everything
is "in there." However, an introductory menu of chicken ala chicken is
only a blip on the screen. It will not throw your dogs into a
nutritional abyss. Feeding Primal during this slight hiatus may make
you feel better and isn't going to hurt anything but your pocketbook,
but it's not required.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
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5a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

>
> If you do end up doing this, definitely look for good size
breeders. I'm sure you know this part as a rabbit breeder, but I'll
mention it in case anyone else is considering it - please consider
that rats are intelligent creatures and deserve a good quality of
life. This includes avoiding overbreeding your mommas.

I breed each of my brood does (rabbits) 3 to 4 times a year.
Commercial outfits aim for 8 to 10 times a year, so over breeding is
not an issue. The breeders for both species are to be treated with
the same love and respect as Angel (the dog) the kits (or pups) would
be raised with the same consideration and at processing age I would
choose future breeders and the rest go to the freezer. Thank you for
your concern!

Lastly, consider that rats often have very large litters - more than
you may care to feed. So look for other folks in your area that may
be interested (other canine or feline RAW feeders, reptile owners, or
even those that may be looking for pets).
>
The large litters are a good reason for my thoughts on rats. More in
less time if I keep only high birth rated mothers and high production
fathers. I would only breed to meet needs of my family. So with the
rats each female would see 3 to 5 litters, IF that, each year.

I also joined a group for suppliers so as to sell or trade to give
Angel variety for less fuss than having to pay the store rates. I
swear, where I am we are paying more than those up in the city. Its
strange because we are in the heart of farming area. I found a
processor near us, I'm going to call and ask if they might sell
anything they would normally throw away. If they won't they might
know a place to call.

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab
and two cats

Messages in this topic (8)
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5b. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:46 am ((PST))

>
> No, they also need bones and organs. A better way to phrase it is
> they need whole animals or animal parts, nothing extra. No fruits,
> not veggies, not grains, no nothing else.

I'm sorry that is what I meant, all animal nothing else.

> They should get a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals
> and no other types of foods. Meat, bones, and organs only.

So no eggs or milk or anything like that?

> Look around. You should be able to find turkey and chicken pretty
> cheap just after Christmas. Other foods might be on sale also. I
> assume you don't get your kibble free. Spend that money on real
> food.

Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7. A bag of
chicken breasts costs $9. Turkeys whole are going for $1.25 to $2
per pound depending on brand but I'll look day after Christmas. Get
paid Monday, will look for stuff on sale. For dogs its ok if it
doesn't have much people shelf live left right??

> Yes, absolutely. Feed her rats and rabbits. She will also need
> some other animals some also.

Thanks. I am trying to find local folks to buy odds n ends off of.
It is hunting season and all. I also have a freind who fishes a
LOT. I bet if I bought him bait he'd catch her some. Fish is ok
isn't it? How about Carp? He can get Carp VERY easily. And blue gil
and sunfish.

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab

Messages in this topic (8)
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5c. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

Wow, you can just imagine the quality, or absence thereof, in a
product that costs so little.

A product like that could only be produced at that cost if it
contained a large amount of grain.

And when you feed grain, you'll increase the likelihood of a range of
illnesses, plus a shortened lifespan, plus a decreased quality of life
for your dog. You'd need to get teeth cleaned every year, plus the
costs of vet bills that result because of an inappropriate diet.

So the trick is to find suppliers that will give you a good quality of
food, without breaking the bank. The person who pays the most for
food doesn't win some sort of imaginery competition.

I'm very lucky where I get a range of food delivered to my house. I
pay nothing for delivery, and whole goats and sheep cost me $10-$15.

I used to feed a lot of chicken. I've now moved away from that, and
the primary food source for my dogs, cats, and ferrets now is sheep.

Check out some pictures here: http://www.bluegrace.com/rawpwd.html

Good luck with it, and let us know how you go and how we can help.

cheers

Jane

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote (snipped):

>
> Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
> month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7.

Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Re: small dogs/big parts?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...>
wrote:
> Anyway....question...I read about people feeding RMB like pork
> shoulder, and roasts with bone in. My guys are 20# and so these pcs
> are too big.

Hi Marge,
There are several things you can do. You can, for math ease, buy 2
four pound bone in pork roasts. Decide that four pounds should be
about 16 meals and cut into appropriate size pieces, the last one
being the bone still covered in meat. You can freeze the meat and
then feed a solo boneless meal and then alternate with a chicken back
-yes the bone does count in the amount fed- what ever works for
successful stool control for your dogs. One of the meals will turn
out to be that nice pork bone covered in meat. OR, you could just
give each dog a four pound roast, eyeball when they have eaten the
correct amount and just put the roast back in the fridge for another
day. Again, eventually, you'll get to feed that nice meaty pork bone.

As far as really big, say heads, goes, another choice you can make a
ways down the raw feeding road, is to put that big piece of meat down,
make some coffee, and watch your dogs eat until they are full. Decide
how much they ate, how many days worth of food that should be, and
food nothing except maybe a snack meal for that many days. When i
offer a head, i determine how many days worth of food it is and leave
it sit outside-think Illinois winter- and that is all they eat for 5
days. If they finish it 2 days or 4, its up to them. KahyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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7.1. Newbie Questions
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

Hello,

My name is Patsy and I live in MN with a new beagle puppy (4mos, 13lbs), 2
cats, and 3 kids. I'm brand new to this but very committed - but a little
overwhelmed at the moment about how I'm going to find good, affordable raw
meat (that's not full of antibiotics and hormones, etc.) for the pets and
how to do it all... I've been researching the internet about all of this
for the last week or so. There's a lot of conflicting information out
there!

I guess my first practical question is: Where do you all buy your meat?
Can you actually find whole rabbits and such? The kids and I eat mostly
vegan so I am not too familiar with the meat world.

One note of encouragement was Heather's post where she said

That's ALL? If it's really only that much a day, I can see where this would
be about the same if not cheaper than dog food. Where do I find guidelines
about how much to feed our dog, being a puppy and all? And since our puppy
is ALWAYS hungry and hunting for food, I need to ask what time of day do you
feed your dog? Does he get it all at once or divided up throughout the day?

In general, who are the most trusted experts in this field? What books
should I read?

Why do many rawfeeding places encourage owners to mix the food with
grains/veggies? Is that still part of the pet food industry's influence?

Are there any real, live rawfeeding support groups in MN?

Those are my questions. for now :-) Thanks for your help.

Patsy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (29)
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8a. Nature designed diet?
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

Very few people here give
> supplements unless its for a known physical problem. Everything is
> contained in the prey animal. Nature designed it that way. If it
> wasn't so, we wouldn't have carnivores.
>
> Bill Carnes

Bill, I'm feeding variety and generally the right percentages but I
wonder if I am really approximating fully the nature designed meals.
My dogs don't geerally get the benefit of the hide, head components,
and other parts that nature would have provided... non poultry is
skinned and poultry has no feathers. Just makes me wonder if I could
be missing something.

My barn cats take down little birds all the time. All that is left is
a few feathers and not enough it seems to cover the bird.

Mary T

Messages in this topic (21)
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9a. Re: hip dysplasia
Posted by: "maradethc" maradethc@yahoo.com maradethc
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:38 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:TRIM YOUR MAILS FROM NOW ON PLEASE. THIS WAS TRIMMED FOR YOU.

Hi Giselle!

Thanks for the information. A little more info on our diet -

Sometimes we find whole (skinned) lamb or pig heads, we usually get
those when they are available - once or twice a month. They pork and
beef feet on about the same frequency.

We give meaty beef bones 3-4 times a week. They get all the meat
off, get the marrow, but don't consume the bones. Their teeth look
amazing!

We have given green tripe, green tripe/organ mix, as well as trachea
and gullet. This is only once every few months, though.

Our vet has started Daisy out with an anti-inflammatory. He wants to
see how she does on that for a week or so. He said we also have
options of pain killers (only if needed), adding glucosamine
supplements, therapy, or even surgery if we want to go down that
road. His immediate recommendation though is to not make multiple
changes at once - see how she does on the anti-inflammatory before
trying anything else rather than taking a shot-gun approach and not
knowing which change was beneficial. He also recommended that she
drop a little weight - she's not heavy for her size, but he said
dropping about 10% body weight could make a huge difference.

We do have a treadmill, but haven't had any luck getting her on! She
does get a 1-2 mile walk daily.

Thanks again - we'll let you know what happens.

Mike and Maradeth (Daisy, Jasmine, Scrappy, and Rocko!)

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

> In a message dated 12/21/2007 2:18:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> redkeds@... writes:
>
> the reason you can not find fresh or uncooked sardines is that they
do
> not exist. i believe it is small mackeral or similar fish that are
> caught and then processed/cooked, to become sardines.

Mackeral and sardines, herring and anchovies are all different. The
latter 3 are related, but they are not the same as mackeral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_jack_mackerel

Heather

Messages in this topic (15)
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10b. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:00 am ((PST))

Hey Maggie,

nope they definitely exist. Sardines are considered a delicacy and a
specialty dish in many parts of the world. In Fremantle, Western
Australia they are cooked up as a special dish. In Portugal,
particularly the Algarve, sardines are a specialty.

Where I live in Melbourne, Australia, I buy them for about $5 a kilo -
fresh and raw, and they are particularly a great food for puppies at 5
weeks of age.

I can also get mackeral - a completely different fish again.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (15)
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11.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
Posted by: "Jo" mistielass@yahoo.co.uk mistielass
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

Thanks for all your replies. I think I got a little over ambitious this
evening. My dogs have been having tinned sardines in oil as part of
their regular diet but I saw some fresh ones at the fish market today
and thought it would be a loverly change for them. I didn't do anything
with them, just gave them whole with guts, head,eyes ect. I was either
wrong or I gave my aussie to many. My westies had 1 each and my aussie
had 3 which came to about 200g. she ate them very carfully, not
bolting, I don't think she quite knew what to do with them. But about 5
mins after she threw the lot back up. What went wrong?

Kind regards
Jo
sorry for the odd questions I am too new at this, I'm frightening
myself LOL.

Messages in this topic (33)
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11.2. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:15 am ((PST))

Hi, Jo!
NP, just too much new food at once!

When you feed sardines again to the Aussie, just toss one (or a half) in
with a well tolerated protein, that will get her acclimated, and ease the
introduction.

BTW, did you give her the chance to re eat it?

Just remember, less is more, gradual is better than all at once.

TC
Giselle

> I think I got a little over ambitious this
> evening. My dogs have been having tinned sardines in oil as part of
> their regular diet but I saw some fresh ones at the fish market today
> and thought it would be a loverly change for them. I didn't do anything
> with them, just gave them whole with guts, head,eyes ect. I was either
> wrong or I gave my aussie to many. My westies had 1 each and my aussie
> had 3 which came to about 200g. she ate them very carefully, not
> bolting, I don't think she quite knew what to do with them. But about 5
> mins after she threw the lot back up. What went wrong?
>
> Kind regards
> Jo
> sorry for the odd questions I am too new at this, I'm frightening
> myself LOL.
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (33)
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12a. HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "ohyeachampion" ohyeachampion@yahoo.com ohyeachampion
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++++

Hi all.
I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got her
(2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?
Thanks for the help and Happy Holidays!

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:59 am ((PST))

What exactly are you feeding...and is the amount 3% of her ideal adult
weight?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@yahoo.com>
I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got her
(2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?

Messages in this topic (6)
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12c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

sorry - eating cat poo and trash are behavioral issues, not hunger
related.

stick with the 3% - adjust up or down as needed. how does she look?

Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@...>
wrote:
>
> ++++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++++
>
> Hi all.
> I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got her
> (2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
> encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
> found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
> divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
> of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
> dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
> amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?
> Thanks for the help and Happy Holidays!
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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12d. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

Ah... sorry Maggie, eating cat poo and trash are actually related to
diet.

In my trash there are numerous goodies that the dogs and cats want.
Take left over roast chicken. They think that's fantastic.

Cats are often fed commercial food, and their stools are often very
attractive to dogs.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (6)
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12e. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "ohyeachampion" ohyeachampion@yahoo.com ohyeachampion
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:17 am ((PST))

Sandee & Dane Gang,
I feed her beef back ribs, eggs, tilapia, pork shoulder, turkey butts,
a range of offal, and an occasional cornish game hens. My boyfriend
thinks that I feed a bit more bone then meat but I've recently changed
to feeding her the whole chicken as opposed to chicken parts. For
awhile, she was getting fed ribs and offal alternately, because I
could get a good price on it.

As for her ideal weight, I was feeding her 3% of what she weighs. But
as a puppy I couldn't see feeding her as a 70lb dog. Is that where I
went wrong?

Sheryll and Sherman

- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> What exactly are you feeding...and is the amount 3% of her ideal
adult weight?

Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@...>
I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got
her (2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?

Messages in this topic (6)
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12f. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:22 am ((PST))

hi Sheryll,

one reason I don't give people percentages for what to feed is
because they so often get it wrong. And to be frank, I've never
seen a wolf with a calculator trying to work out how much to eat on
any given day.

If you are going to go by percentages, it's 3% of expected adult
weight, not 3% of puppy weight. There is a vast difference in
quantity. No wonder she's always hungry.

I give my puppies what ever they will eat. I have never had a pup
over eat on the raw diet. Yesterday, for example, my dogs got a
foal to eat. (The foal hadn't made it through the birthing process
sucessfully.) Anything left over from their meal gets given to the
older dogs. I have absolutely no idea how much each pup is eating,
and have no intention of finding out. I keep an eye on their
condition, and the only one who gets more attention is the small
runt who gets to eat without the competitive siblings. But yet
again, I have never measured his food.

I start to moderate the diet more when they are around 12 months of
age only.

It is amazing how much pups will eat as they are growing and I often
find pups able to consume as much or more than an adult dog will eat.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (6)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12409

There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: Offered Fish
From: Maggie Smith
3b. Re: Offered Fish
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Offered Fish
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: how much bone variety?
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: how much bone variety?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5. Re: blood tests and weigh-ins
From: Michael Moore

6a. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
6b. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: So I decided to switch
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Heather

7a. Re: Picky on which CUTS of meat?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8. small dogs/big parts?
From: marge

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:38 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> They just need meat no extras?

No, they also need bones and organs. A better way to phrase it is
they need whole animals or animal parts, nothing extra. No fruits,
not veggies, not grains, no nothing else.

> They should get a variety
> but it should be a variety of types of meat not other types
> of foods?

They should get a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals
and no other types of foods. Meat, bones, and organs only.

> I would feed more and get to no kibble at all
> but the holidays have me strapped and the cold has caused me
> to lose litters.

Look around. You should be able to find turkey and chicken pretty
cheap just after Christmas. Other foods might be on sale also. I
assume you don't get your kibble free. Spend that money on real
food.

> My dog (Angel) has caught and eaten
> wild rats and field mice. Can I raise rats to feed her?

Yes, absolutely. Feed her rats and rabbits. She will also need
some other animals some also.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:02 pm ((PST))

"Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
>> 1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood test on
> Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.
*****
If you are accustomed to doing bloodwork, then continue as you would
otherwise do. If you do not do bloodwork, there is no need to start
now. I did not check to see if my dogs' systems were fit: I knew they
could be healthier, thus the switch to raw.

There is nothing about raw feeding that will cause Rosie's system to go
kerplooey; in fact there's nothing in blood work that will identify any
dietary issues at all.

> 2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little mutt,
should
> I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds?
*****
Oh, no question that eyeballing is the way to go. I haven't weighed my
big dogs in years. I just feed them amounts of food and adjust up or
down as needed. The BC got weighed a lot as she was growing since
she's as cute as a button and my husband liked toting her into the
bathroom for a weighing. Kinda hard to tote a big galoot Lab anywhere.

I'm currently feeding her 2.5% or
> so of her body weight, and she's very active. I want to learn how to
be
> in tune as much as possible with her body.
*****
You get in tune by watching her, not the scale. You get in tune by
getting in touch. Pay attention to what she feels like. Pay attention
when she does what she does. Figure out what looks "good" to you and
when you watch her compare her appearance to your ideal.

I think of one the great benefits of raw feeding is learning to "read"
one's dog, physically. Whether it's because of fear or curiosity,
rawfeeders seem to discover all sorts of things about their dogs they
never really noticed before.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
>
> After just a few days on this list, I realize that you veterans
> of the
> raw scene answer the same questions over and over from us newbies.

You noticed that, did you? :) :) :)

> 1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood
> test on Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.

> 2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little
> mutt, should
> I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds?

> Or would you suggest weighing her regularly?

> I want to learn how to be
> in tune as much as possible with her body.

It just takes a little time. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 7:45:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
amypatriciatracy@gmail.com writes:

1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood test on
Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.

2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little mutt, should
I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds? Or would
you suggest weighing her regularly? I'm currently feeding her 2.5% or
so of her body weight, and she's very active. I want to learn how to be
in tune as much as possible with her body.

Amy,

1. i've been raw feeding for somewhere around 5 years.. and i haven't had any
blood tests done for any of my dogs. Blood tests don't tell you if you're
feeding your dogs correctly, they are for diagnosis of a recognized problem and
nothing more.

2. dogs should be lean, they should have a waist, and their belly should tuck
up where the ribcage ends. And you should be able to feel, but not see her
ribs and hip bones.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST))

My apologies - I swore I read this somewhere in the recent past, as a
trivia question.

Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Maggie Smith" <redkeds@> wrote:>
> > the reason you can not find fresh or uncooked sardines is that
they
> do
> > not exist. i believe it is small mackeral or similar fish that
are
> > caught and then processed/cooked, to become sardines.
> *****
> Say what?
>
> I could see pilchard standing in for sardines (and vice versa);
there
> are a variety of sardine-like fish (or pilchard-like fish) in the
> herring family. But I don't think mackerel is one of them.
>
> The remaning sardine fishing and canning in Monterey Bay sure as
> shootin' fishes for and cans sardines. Really.
>
> Here is a lovely website that should clear things up:
> http://ca-seafood.ucdavis.edu/facts/species.htm
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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3b. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:13 pm ((PST))

"Maggie Smith" <redkeds@...> wrote:>
> My apologies - I swore I read this somewhere in the recent past, as a
> trivia question.
*****
That's okay, no apologies needed. But if you can find the post you
read, please link it. I have no recollection of such a thing.

Which says more about my memory than anything.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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3c. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 2:18:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
redkeds@comcast.net writes:

the reason you can not find fresh or uncooked sardines is that they do
not exist. i believe it is small mackeral or similar fish that are
caught and then processed/cooked, to become sardines.

***i don't know how true this is.. i just finished off the last case of raw
sardines i had in my freezer.. the box said "sardines". so i have to assume
that they are fish all by themselves.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: how much bone variety?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sue" <s406@...> wrote:
>
> He won't work on pork bones, or veal.

If he eats the meat but not the bones don't be concerned. You say
he eats other bones. Not eating bones of a particular animal is NBD.

> So are an assortment of poultry and some
> rabbit and fish bones enough of a variety?

If you are talking about bones, yes definately.

> He eats a good amount of
> boneless pork, venison, and beef heart so meat variety is
> good IMO.

I don't see how you could ask for more.

> I just wonder about necessity of bone variety

Don't worry about it. Go find something else to worry
about. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: how much bone variety?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 3:47:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
s406@dejazzd.com writes:

He won't work on pork bones, or veal. He is quite a fan of poultry
which I am not. He will crunch through rabbit bones, loves chuckars
and chicken, and likes fish. So are an assortment of poultry and some
rabbit and fish bones enough of a variety? He eats a good amount of
boneless pork, venison, and beef heart so meat variety is good IMO. I
just wonder about necessity of bone variety

Sue,

Since he's such a little guy and the fact that bone just isn't a big part of
the overall diet i don't see a problem with him only eating chicken and rabbit
and fish bones.

my old golden is getting more and more sensitive to excess bone.. even a rack
of ribs bothers him these days. the most bone he can have seems to be in a
turkey breast with the ribs but not the breast bone. Anything more than that
and he has an upset tummy for a day or two.

Last week he had a turkey wing drumette with a beef melt and even that was
too much bone. what i'm suggesting is that you add more meat and let the bones
fall where they may. offer them, if he eats them.. ok, if he doesn't.. don't
worry about.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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Messages in this topic (4)
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5. Re: blood tests and weigh-ins
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:30 pm ((PST))

>>1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood test on
Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.<<

Well, I've fed between 7 and 10 dogs raw for over 6 yrs., and the only time I had a blood test run was, umm, well, I haven't! One of my puppies needed to have a couple of retained canine teeth pulled; they wanted to run blood work on her and I declined -- she was six months old at the time, and frankly, it was, IMO, a waste of money.

>>2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little mutt, should
I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds? Or would
you suggest weighing her regularly? I'm currently feeding her 2.5% or
so of her body weight, and she's very active. I want to learn how to be
in tune as much as possible with her body. <<

Amy -- put your hands on her ribcage a couple of times a week, in addition to keeping an eye on her. IMO, you should be able to *easily* feel ribs without pressing (and perhaps even see the last one or two)! I never weigh my dogs, either. If they look good, and are maintaining good weight (by sight and feel rather than by scale), I don't worry about it. My dogs do all sorts of stuff -- demos, obedience, rally, agility, occasionally herding, therapy visits. They are lean and active, too; the only difference is, I've grown quite relaxed about rawfeeding. It's just what I do. You'll get there eventually, too.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign all messages ++++++

I understand the concept of balanced over time and that they will get
all of there needs, however I grew up with a dietitian mom, and a very
strong holistic background. Even though I eat rather well I still take
vitamins and minerals, I don't understand why a dog wouldn't? For me
primal would be like a vitamin. Is this make any sense? I think I will
feel better once their bodies are adjusted and I can feed more than
just plain chicken
>
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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6b. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:47 pm ((PST))

No, Primal wouldn't be compared to a vitamin! There is nothing appropriate
or beneficial in this food other than the meat and there's very little of
that!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (19)
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6c. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
>
> Even though I eat rather well I still take
> vitamins and minerals, I don't understand why a dog wouldn't?

Once you understand that a carnivore is a meat eater and
nutritionally needs nothing more than meat, bones, and organs. If
he needs plant material, he becomes an omnivore which he isn't. :)
Millions of years of evolution have taught us that carnivores need
nothing more than the carcasses of prey animals they catch and kill.

> For me primal would be like a vitamin. Is this make any sense?

It makes sense only if you know that there is a nutrient that he is
missing from his regular diet. Taking vitamins "just in case" is
doing nothing more than creating expensive pee.

> I think I will feel better once their bodies are adjusted and
> I can feed more than just plain chicken

I'm sure you will but remember that it's not necessary to get every
single nutrient in existence every day. You can go weeks or months
without taking in most nutrients with no adverse effects. There is
every nutrient in chickens that there is in any other animal, just
in different amounts. Some animals have more protein, some more fat,
some more EFAs, some more of one nutrient or another. Thats why we
feed variety. All animals contain all the nutrients, just in
different amounts.

If it makes you feel better you can feed whatever you want. You
aren't harming your dog. You are not doing him any good either.
Suppliments just aren't necessary. Very few people here give
supplements unless its for a known physical problem. Everything is
contained in the prey animal. Nature designed it that way. If it
wasn't so, we wouldn't have carnivores.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (19)
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6d. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:11 am ((PST))

> So now I don't know what to do, I know they need about 8-9 ounces a
> day. But I am really worried. They are so active, I worry they won't
> get proper nutrition or that they will get contaminated meat, some of
> it was a little brown and smelled a little off. Can that hurt them.
> What would a sample day of food be, they weigh 15 lbs each.

Even at 3% of their body weight, your dogs only need 7 oz of meat a
day.. I think you are feeding way too much. My 20 lb beagle only eats
8 oz per day but in the winter when he's less active I'll cut out 4 oz
a few times a week to keep his weight down. Overfeeding will cause
weight gain pretty fast on a raw diet. It took mine 4 days to lose his
waistline when I was overfeeding by 3-4 oz. And about
the "contaminated meat", my dog ate a chicken I forgot about in the
fridge for a week. It smelled awful, the meat was discolored but it
wasn't rotting enough for me to throw it out so I cut it up, froze it
and he ate it no problem. Bacteria is not a concern for dogs as it is
for people. I believe I read somewhere once that a dog's stomach pH is
0-1 and bacteria cannot survive in anything less than 1.5.

Heather

Messages in this topic (19)
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7a. Re: Picky on which CUTS of meat?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 3:12:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Adam.C.Firestone@saic.com writes:

To date, we've fed raw chicken drumsticks, pork ribs, raw chicken thighs, and
today raw chicken leg quarters.

Adam,

sounds like your Sabot wants more meat. As he should, looks like so far your
dogs' diet is very heavy on bone and far too light on meat. Remember you're
looking for MEAT on an edible bone, not BONE with some meat on it.

Think whole chickens, and pork legs or picnic roasts, or whole pork loin, or
beef brisket (boneless)..

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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8. small dogs/big parts?
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

Hi there everyone,

I am going on the end of week two of raw feeding my two mini
poo's..things are going well....sticking with chicken still but
slowly adding more meaty pcs and will try a little pork today. The
chicken backs definitely help keep stools firm but the guys are
beginning to tolerate the increase in meat. My one guy is actually
gaining a little weight for the first time since we rescued him in
7/06. He has been pretty unhealthy for long time. He is interested
in food..new behavior and now joins his buddy in hanging out before
meal time. I used to have to literally coax him to his food before.

Anyway....question...I read about people feeding RMB like pork
shoulder, and roasts with bone in. My guys are 20# and so these pcs
are too big. I wonder what others with the smaller breeds do to get
the big time RMB's into their dogs. I have no doubt they can handle
the bone but the amount of overall meat seems much. I also see
people talking about heads of various animals and I have the same
question. I am still on chicken but looking for ideas for when I
begin more variety. Even some of the chicken backs seem large for
them...10 ounces.. I am trying to keep their daily intake to about 4-
6 ounces. Does a backs weight really count toward that since it is
mostly bone. I find I am giving more meat with them now...and I know
I am feeding more than 4-6 ounces on certain days. I am not too
worried about this as I can cut back if they gain too much. I am
just curious how others with smaller breeds manage some of these
things.

Thanks for the feedback.

marge M

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