Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12409

There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: Offered Fish
From: Maggie Smith
3b. Re: Offered Fish
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Offered Fish
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: how much bone variety?
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: how much bone variety?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5. Re: blood tests and weigh-ins
From: Michael Moore

6a. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
6b. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: So I decided to switch
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Heather

7a. Re: Picky on which CUTS of meat?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8. small dogs/big parts?
From: marge

Messages
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1a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:38 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> They just need meat no extras?

No, they also need bones and organs. A better way to phrase it is
they need whole animals or animal parts, nothing extra. No fruits,
not veggies, not grains, no nothing else.

> They should get a variety
> but it should be a variety of types of meat not other types
> of foods?

They should get a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals
and no other types of foods. Meat, bones, and organs only.

> I would feed more and get to no kibble at all
> but the holidays have me strapped and the cold has caused me
> to lose litters.

Look around. You should be able to find turkey and chicken pretty
cheap just after Christmas. Other foods might be on sale also. I
assume you don't get your kibble free. Spend that money on real
food.

> My dog (Angel) has caught and eaten
> wild rats and field mice. Can I raise rats to feed her?

Yes, absolutely. Feed her rats and rabbits. She will also need
some other animals some also.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:02 pm ((PST))

"Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
>> 1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood test on
> Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.
*****
If you are accustomed to doing bloodwork, then continue as you would
otherwise do. If you do not do bloodwork, there is no need to start
now. I did not check to see if my dogs' systems were fit: I knew they
could be healthier, thus the switch to raw.

There is nothing about raw feeding that will cause Rosie's system to go
kerplooey; in fact there's nothing in blood work that will identify any
dietary issues at all.

> 2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little mutt,
should
> I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds?
*****
Oh, no question that eyeballing is the way to go. I haven't weighed my
big dogs in years. I just feed them amounts of food and adjust up or
down as needed. The BC got weighed a lot as she was growing since
she's as cute as a button and my husband liked toting her into the
bathroom for a weighing. Kinda hard to tote a big galoot Lab anywhere.

I'm currently feeding her 2.5% or
> so of her body weight, and she's very active. I want to learn how to
be
> in tune as much as possible with her body.
*****
You get in tune by watching her, not the scale. You get in tune by
getting in touch. Pay attention to what she feels like. Pay attention
when she does what she does. Figure out what looks "good" to you and
when you watch her compare her appearance to your ideal.

I think of one the great benefits of raw feeding is learning to "read"
one's dog, physically. Whether it's because of fear or curiosity,
rawfeeders seem to discover all sorts of things about their dogs they
never really noticed before.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
>
> After just a few days on this list, I realize that you veterans
> of the
> raw scene answer the same questions over and over from us newbies.

You noticed that, did you? :) :) :)

> 1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood
> test on Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.

I never do a blood test on mine unless there is a physical reason to
do so. If they look happy, healthy, and energetic with a good build
and shiney coat, I see no reason to fatten the vets pocketbook with
tests that will tell me all is ok anyway.

> 2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little
> mutt, should
> I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds?

Pounds don't matter, looks do. If she is short haired, you should
be able to see her back rib or two without being able to see her
hips or spine. If she is long haired you should be able to tell the
same things by feeling.

> Or would you suggest weighing her regularly?

My dog's get weighed once a year when they go to the vet for
heartworm check. Weighing is just standard proceedure when a dog
goes in there. I don't even have the vet give them a checkup while
they are there for the heartworm test unless I have noticed
something unusual, which is rare.

> I want to learn how to be
> in tune as much as possible with her body.

It just takes a little time. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 7:45:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
amypatriciatracy@gmail.com writes:

1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood test on
Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.

2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little mutt, should
I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds? Or would
you suggest weighing her regularly? I'm currently feeding her 2.5% or
so of her body weight, and she's very active. I want to learn how to be
in tune as much as possible with her body.

Amy,

1. i've been raw feeding for somewhere around 5 years.. and i haven't had any
blood tests done for any of my dogs. Blood tests don't tell you if you're
feeding your dogs correctly, they are for diagnosis of a recognized problem and
nothing more.

2. dogs should be lean, they should have a waist, and their belly should tuck
up where the ribcage ends. And you should be able to feel, but not see her
ribs and hip bones.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST))

My apologies - I swore I read this somewhere in the recent past, as a
trivia question.

Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Maggie Smith" <redkeds@> wrote:>
> > the reason you can not find fresh or uncooked sardines is that
they
> do
> > not exist. i believe it is small mackeral or similar fish that
are
> > caught and then processed/cooked, to become sardines.
> *****
> Say what?
>
> I could see pilchard standing in for sardines (and vice versa);
there
> are a variety of sardine-like fish (or pilchard-like fish) in the
> herring family. But I don't think mackerel is one of them.
>
> The remaning sardine fishing and canning in Monterey Bay sure as
> shootin' fishes for and cans sardines. Really.
>
> Here is a lovely website that should clear things up:
> http://ca-seafood.ucdavis.edu/facts/species.htm
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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3b. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:13 pm ((PST))

"Maggie Smith" <redkeds@...> wrote:>
> My apologies - I swore I read this somewhere in the recent past, as a
> trivia question.
*****
That's okay, no apologies needed. But if you can find the post you
read, please link it. I have no recollection of such a thing.

Which says more about my memory than anything.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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3c. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 2:18:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
redkeds@comcast.net writes:

the reason you can not find fresh or uncooked sardines is that they do
not exist. i believe it is small mackeral or similar fish that are
caught and then processed/cooked, to become sardines.

***i don't know how true this is.. i just finished off the last case of raw
sardines i had in my freezer.. the box said "sardines". so i have to assume
that they are fish all by themselves.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: how much bone variety?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sue" <s406@...> wrote:
>
> He won't work on pork bones, or veal.

If he eats the meat but not the bones don't be concerned. You say
he eats other bones. Not eating bones of a particular animal is NBD.

> So are an assortment of poultry and some
> rabbit and fish bones enough of a variety?

If you are talking about bones, yes definately.

> He eats a good amount of
> boneless pork, venison, and beef heart so meat variety is
> good IMO.

I don't see how you could ask for more.

> I just wonder about necessity of bone variety

Don't worry about it. Go find something else to worry
about. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: how much bone variety?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 3:47:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
s406@dejazzd.com writes:

He won't work on pork bones, or veal. He is quite a fan of poultry
which I am not. He will crunch through rabbit bones, loves chuckars
and chicken, and likes fish. So are an assortment of poultry and some
rabbit and fish bones enough of a variety? He eats a good amount of
boneless pork, venison, and beef heart so meat variety is good IMO. I
just wonder about necessity of bone variety

Sue,

Since he's such a little guy and the fact that bone just isn't a big part of
the overall diet i don't see a problem with him only eating chicken and rabbit
and fish bones.

my old golden is getting more and more sensitive to excess bone.. even a rack
of ribs bothers him these days. the most bone he can have seems to be in a
turkey breast with the ribs but not the breast bone. Anything more than that
and he has an upset tummy for a day or two.

Last week he had a turkey wing drumette with a beef melt and even that was
too much bone. what i'm suggesting is that you add more meat and let the bones
fall where they may. offer them, if he eats them.. ok, if he doesn't.. don't
worry about.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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5. Re: blood tests and weigh-ins
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:30 pm ((PST))

>>1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood test on
Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.<<

Well, I've fed between 7 and 10 dogs raw for over 6 yrs., and the only time I had a blood test run was, umm, well, I haven't! One of my puppies needed to have a couple of retained canine teeth pulled; they wanted to run blood work on her and I declined -- she was six months old at the time, and frankly, it was, IMO, a waste of money.

>>2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little mutt, should
I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds? Or would
you suggest weighing her regularly? I'm currently feeding her 2.5% or
so of her body weight, and she's very active. I want to learn how to be
in tune as much as possible with her body. <<

Amy -- put your hands on her ribcage a couple of times a week, in addition to keeping an eye on her. IMO, you should be able to *easily* feel ribs without pressing (and perhaps even see the last one or two)! I never weigh my dogs, either. If they look good, and are maintaining good weight (by sight and feel rather than by scale), I don't worry about it. My dogs do all sorts of stuff -- demos, obedience, rally, agility, occasionally herding, therapy visits. They are lean and active, too; the only difference is, I've grown quite relaxed about rawfeeding. It's just what I do. You'll get there eventually, too.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign all messages ++++++

I understand the concept of balanced over time and that they will get
all of there needs, however I grew up with a dietitian mom, and a very
strong holistic background. Even though I eat rather well I still take
vitamins and minerals, I don't understand why a dog wouldn't? For me
primal would be like a vitamin. Is this make any sense? I think I will
feel better once their bodies are adjusted and I can feed more than
just plain chicken
>
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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6b. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:47 pm ((PST))

No, Primal wouldn't be compared to a vitamin! There is nothing appropriate
or beneficial in this food other than the meat and there's very little of
that!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (19)
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6c. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
>
> Even though I eat rather well I still take
> vitamins and minerals, I don't understand why a dog wouldn't?

Once you understand that a carnivore is a meat eater and
nutritionally needs nothing more than meat, bones, and organs. If
he needs plant material, he becomes an omnivore which he isn't. :)
Millions of years of evolution have taught us that carnivores need
nothing more than the carcasses of prey animals they catch and kill.

> For me primal would be like a vitamin. Is this make any sense?

It makes sense only if you know that there is a nutrient that he is
missing from his regular diet. Taking vitamins "just in case" is
doing nothing more than creating expensive pee.

> I think I will feel better once their bodies are adjusted and
> I can feed more than just plain chicken

I'm sure you will but remember that it's not necessary to get every
single nutrient in existence every day. You can go weeks or months
without taking in most nutrients with no adverse effects. There is
every nutrient in chickens that there is in any other animal, just
in different amounts. Some animals have more protein, some more fat,
some more EFAs, some more of one nutrient or another. Thats why we
feed variety. All animals contain all the nutrients, just in
different amounts.

If it makes you feel better you can feed whatever you want. You
aren't harming your dog. You are not doing him any good either.
Suppliments just aren't necessary. Very few people here give
supplements unless its for a known physical problem. Everything is
contained in the prey animal. Nature designed it that way. If it
wasn't so, we wouldn't have carnivores.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (19)
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6d. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:11 am ((PST))

> So now I don't know what to do, I know they need about 8-9 ounces a
> day. But I am really worried. They are so active, I worry they won't
> get proper nutrition or that they will get contaminated meat, some of
> it was a little brown and smelled a little off. Can that hurt them.
> What would a sample day of food be, they weigh 15 lbs each.

Even at 3% of their body weight, your dogs only need 7 oz of meat a
day.. I think you are feeding way too much. My 20 lb beagle only eats
8 oz per day but in the winter when he's less active I'll cut out 4 oz
a few times a week to keep his weight down. Overfeeding will cause
weight gain pretty fast on a raw diet. It took mine 4 days to lose his
waistline when I was overfeeding by 3-4 oz. And about
the "contaminated meat", my dog ate a chicken I forgot about in the
fridge for a week. It smelled awful, the meat was discolored but it
wasn't rotting enough for me to throw it out so I cut it up, froze it
and he ate it no problem. Bacteria is not a concern for dogs as it is
for people. I believe I read somewhere once that a dog's stomach pH is
0-1 and bacteria cannot survive in anything less than 1.5.

Heather

Messages in this topic (19)
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7a. Re: Picky on which CUTS of meat?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/21/2007 3:12:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Adam.C.Firestone@saic.com writes:

To date, we've fed raw chicken drumsticks, pork ribs, raw chicken thighs, and
today raw chicken leg quarters.

Adam,

sounds like your Sabot wants more meat. As he should, looks like so far your
dogs' diet is very heavy on bone and far too light on meat. Remember you're
looking for MEAT on an edible bone, not BONE with some meat on it.

Think whole chickens, and pork legs or picnic roasts, or whole pork loin, or
beef brisket (boneless)..

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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Messages in this topic (13)
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8. small dogs/big parts?
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

Hi there everyone,

I am going on the end of week two of raw feeding my two mini
poo's..things are going well....sticking with chicken still but
slowly adding more meaty pcs and will try a little pork today. The
chicken backs definitely help keep stools firm but the guys are
beginning to tolerate the increase in meat. My one guy is actually
gaining a little weight for the first time since we rescued him in
7/06. He has been pretty unhealthy for long time. He is interested
in food..new behavior and now joins his buddy in hanging out before
meal time. I used to have to literally coax him to his food before.

Anyway....question...I read about people feeding RMB like pork
shoulder, and roasts with bone in. My guys are 20# and so these pcs
are too big. I wonder what others with the smaller breeds do to get
the big time RMB's into their dogs. I have no doubt they can handle
the bone but the amount of overall meat seems much. I also see
people talking about heads of various animals and I have the same
question. I am still on chicken but looking for ideas for when I
begin more variety. Even some of the chicken backs seem large for
them...10 ounces.. I am trying to keep their daily intake to about 4-
6 ounces. Does a backs weight really count toward that since it is
mostly bone. I find I am giving more meat with them now...and I know
I am feeding more than 4-6 ounces on certain days. I am not too
worried about this as I can cut back if they gain too much. I am
just curious how others with smaller breeds manage some of these
things.

Thanks for the feedback.

marge M

Messages in this topic (1)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Saturday, December 22, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12409

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