[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12402

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
From: Susanne MacLeod

2a. Re: UK chicken/Moral support please!
From: Sarah

3a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: krheintgen
3b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: katkellm
3c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Giselle

4a. OFF TOPIC - freezers
From: Erika
4b. Re: OFF TOPIC - freezers
From: T Smith

5a. Re: blood in stools
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: blood in stools
From: Julie Foster
5c. Re: blood in stools
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: Giselle
6b. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: jesperanueva
6d. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: Giselle

7a. Re: posting
From: Casey Post

8a. Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses requested
From: Angela Mariajo

9. Re: new to raw ... my picky eater
From: paul holt

10a. Re: runny stools
From: carnesbill

11a. Pork?
From: joan
11b. Re: Pork?
From: Andrea
11c. Re: Pork?
From: Giselle

12a. Introducing Myself!
From: Amy T
12b. cat is joining us
From: donna

13a. For liver...try searing....
From: Erin Hartiens-Santiago

Messages
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1. Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:05 am ((PST))

Hi gang...I just got back from out East and I was able to bring 8 wild
rabbits. They are guted and skinned. I also brought 60 oysters I
picked out of the FREEZING ocean for me... :)
So...I can't seem to get a straight answer from anywhere, so perhaps
some of you could shed some light.
How long do I need to freeze for any parasite (tape, and tulamaria)?
Also the bones seem very very sharp. I cut each rabbit in four
pieces; basically a leg and some attached for a meal.
My friend who also took care of Joey and Kate, gave them WAY TOO much
Artic Vigor (seal oil) - a whole bottle. A bottle usually lasts me 2-
3 months. Should I be concerned? Kate's had some runny poo's, but
that's about it.
I also am planning on moving back home and will have access to
musjrat, beaver and moose...any advice?
Thanks a bunch,
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: UK chicken/Moral support please!
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:06 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> I'm sure the fresh, raw chicken in UK stores is just as it should be,
but you will more likely find the frozen chicken parts to have 'added
water'

I've only fed fresh chicken so far, so I'm hoping it was just the fact
he ate it too quickly. Most of the vomiting was after beef heart
(although he'd eaten it no problem for about 4 days prior), then after
some mackerel (this was the first time he'd had fresh, raw fish).

I gve him one lightly scrambled egg today and he's been his usual
self. No vomiting and pooping fine! I'm going to give him some
chicken tomorrow and see how he goes.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Sarah (UK)

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "krheintgen" krheintgen@comcast.net krheintgen
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:
>
> Kathy,
>
> A person who uses the terms "fasting" and "starving"
interchangeably,
> and suggests that there is not much difference between the two,
> clearly knows very little about either.

I believe you have mis-interpreted my emails. I did not, at least I
did not intend to equate fasting and starving. All I said is that one
would not delibrately deprive a dog of food when it was legitimately
hungry just because that sometimes happens to wolves.

Please do not get all worked up. My point is that everytime a dog
does not eat it is not a fast. If you look at the chain of emails
that preceeded mine you will see the context. I am not the only one
with this opinion. Chris, one of the moderators, posted at the start
of the string *** "Far as I know, "fasting" is a philosophical
construct that doesn't apply to dogs."

> You can't make a case against fasting

I am not sure I am trying to "make a case against fasting..." I was
saying that the poster's dog was not fasting when it refused its
breakfast... and there is no reason to "fast" a dog just for the fast
itself. You disagree with me. That is fine. It does not bother
me. Apparently it bothers you if anyone has a different opinion. I
am sorry about that.

> Well, I would suggest that most domestic dogs *are* sick, but that's
> really beside the question.

OK... so....?

The kind of fasting that is typically
> discussed here is maintenance fasting for asymptomatic dogs, where a
> dog is simply not fed for one or two days out of the week, much like
> what you do with your dogs.

I do not maintenance fast my dogs. And I think each of the other
listers responding to the origianl email also said such fasting in
not required....

This discussion we're having here is
> distinct because it's most likely the first time anyone has ever
> suggested or recommended *extended* fasts (4+ days) for the
treatment
> of acute or chronic symptoms in dogs.

I had absolutely NO IDEA that this is what "we" were discussing. The
string you have hi-jacked was started by asking if a dog should be
fasted once a month... no one that I saw was discussing withholding
food for 4 or more days. I have not been and do not intend to
discuss this.

> "A dog that refused one meal is said to be "fasting" I do not agree
> this is true."
>
> The scenario you describe is not what's being discussed here.

Yes, sorry, but that IS what the string was discussing. You are the
one that changed it without letting anyone else know.

> Therapeutic fasting is not determined by whether a dog will choose
to eat if given the opportunity. Fasting for therapeutic purposes is
> unilaterally decided upon and directed by the owner/guardian.
>

I absolutely agree -- that is fasting. I do not do it. I do not think
it is necessary. WE DISAGREE, get over it.

>
> I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to talk more about
fasting.
> It is a tool that has too long been ignored by dog owners, to their
> detriment (the owners and the dogs!).

You are very welcome. I am just sorry that I had no idea what it was
you were talking about. I am also sorry that you jumped all over my
email when I was NOT talking about that. I was clarifying that a dog
who refuses a meal is not fasting. I am glad to see, by your
definiton of fasting, that you do agree with me on that!

Perhaps you should go back to the original post and repsnd to that
person - you might also address each of the other posters who
responded as I did -- fasting is not necessary, going without food
for a day is not fasting. Big meals ar egood and may require not
eating for a day or so afterwards...apparently they are all also
misleading the poor soles on this list and need to be educated as
well.

>
> Well wishes,
> Nora

You too.
Kathy R

Messages in this topic (19)
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3b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:

> But to imply the evidence isn't there is disingenous, and does a
> disservice to the members here who are honestly and earnestly seeking
> truth.

Hi Nora,
Since no one has determined that you are the consummate authority on
raw feeding dogs or fasting them, well at least i haven't, it very
well could be you who are doing a disservice to the members here who
are honestly seeking the truth. Your first post, unless Yahoo search
is wrong, was Nov. 13, 2007. As far as i can tell, you never
introduced yourself which is normal list etiquette. Kathy R has been a
long time fellow raw feeder and contributor and would never be
disingenuous, and i find your personal assault on her character
offensive. So in the interest of being sincere, on your part, would
you please post an intro? If my archive/search results are wrong, i
apologize. In another post, i asked you about what foods you fed your
dog that she suffered and what foods are superior and why. You must
have missed my post because of the high list volume and didn't
respond. I don't mean so sound like a beach, but you kind of just
rode in and declared yourself the new sheriff in town.:) KathyM

Messages in this topic (19)
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3c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:45 pm ((PST))

And wasn't that the point....to get her misguided notions onto the list? In
order to believe that fasting is the cure-all for all the ills of man and
beast, you need to believe that everything is caused by what she terms
"toxemia". And of course it is absurd to think everything is related to
toxins in the blood.

Her website explains a lot.....and of course she'll "coach" you for a nice
hefty fee! :)

Meanwhile we can't get any response to repeated questions about the criteria
used for her high poultry, limited protein, low fat diet. Hmmmm.....

Sandee & the Dane Gang

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krheintgen" <krheintgen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@> wrote:

>This discussion we're having here is
> distinct because it's most likely the first time anyone has ever
> suggested or recommended *extended* fasts (4+ days) for the
treatment
> of acute or chronic symptoms in dogs.

I had absolutely NO IDEA that this is what "we" were discussing. The
string you have hi-jacked was started by asking if a dog should be
fasted once a month... no one that I saw was discussing withholding
food for 4 or more days. I have not been and do not intend to
discuss this.

Messages in this topic (19)
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3d. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:50 pm ((PST))

Nora, I find your posts arrogant, tedious and self serving in the extreme -
not to mention annoying and misdirected.

Surely, it has not escaped the notice of all the raw feeders, newbie and
experienced alike, who went to your website (posted helpfully in your sig)
and found your Yahoo list, and noticed, as I'm sure you did, that the nearly
10,000 members on this list provided you with a much larger target audience
for marketing your business than your own of 500.

Meanwhile the nice lady who started this topic and posted the question about
her dog's problems has been mostly forgotten. Not to mention that her thread
was hijacked by you without so much as a 'by your leave'.

Clearly, her use of the term 'fast' was not meant in a provocative way, may
have been partly humorous in her second post and was btw of her real
concern.

Which, I think, was that her dog be well fed, healthy and not go hungry, no
matter if a meal was skipped by the dog's design or by her own intentional
plan or not.

Geraldine's original and subsequent post;
*
fasting question

I understand fasting one day a month is good for dogs, it's also good
for people. How old should the dog be before I start this routine? Is
it ok to give her chicken or beef broth during this time or just water.
My little maltipoo is doing GREAT on RMB!!!

Thanks everyone,
geraldine

* * Re: fasting question*
*
My take-away from all of the input is for me to listen to my dog. I
am truly a food pusher even with humans. I just like to see animals
and people eat; a comfort thing I guess. Anyway, I keep thinking she
has to eat breakfast and dinner. However, unless I offer a fantastic
treat in the morning my little girl is not interested in eating
until much later in the day. I guess she is sort of mini fasting
herself not imposed by me. I will learn to understand and go with
what comes natural for her.

Thanks everyone,
geraldine*

Geraldine, you seem to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff pretty
well! Listening to and learning from our own dogs is a good plan. "Know Thy
Dog" is a great maxim to live by.

TC
Giselle

On Dec 20, 2007 3:45 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> And wasn't that the point....to get her misguided notions onto the list?
> In
> order to believe that fasting is the cure-all for all the ills of man and
> beast, you need to believe that everything is caused by what she terms
> "toxemia". And of course it is absurd to think everything is related to
> toxins in the blood.
>
> Her website explains a lot.....and of course she'll "coach" you for a nice
> hefty fee! :)
>
> Meanwhile we can't get any response to repeated questions about the
> criteria
> used for her high poultry, limited protein, low fat diet. Hmmmm.....
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "krheintgen" <krheintgen@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nora
> Lenz" <nmlenz@> wrote:
>
> >This discussion we're having here is
> > distinct because it's most likely the first time anyone has ever
> > suggested or recommended *extended* fasts (4+ days) for the
> treatment
> > of acute or chronic symptoms in dogs.
>
> I had absolutely NO IDEA that this is what "we" were discussing. The
> string you have hi-jacked was started by asking if a dog should be
> fasted once a month... no one that I saw was discussing withholding
> food for 4 or more days. I have not been and do not intend to
> discuss this.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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4a. OFF TOPIC - freezers
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:30 am ((PST))

If you know someone who is handy you could build a box out of plywood around the freezer (like a trunk of sorts) with a lid. Make the box about 3 -4 inches larger than the freezer and then fill the gap with insulation. Be sure to cut a hole in the back and put in a vent where the motor is so that it can get ventalation and will not overheat. This should help with the electric bill and keep all the elements like rain out of the freezer.

I've thought of building a similar thing in the future for myself so that I can take advantage of herd culls even when my indoor freezer is full! If your patio is in shade for most of the day you should be fine :)

Lots of people just stick these chest freezers out on the back patio and wrap insulation around them or keep them in the garage. I think the insulated box is a much better idea personally ;)

Erika

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Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: OFF TOPIC - freezers
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign and trim messages. This message trimmed by a mod, but we can't sign it for you. ++++++++++++

We have ours outside.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: blood in stools
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:45 am ((PST))

I am still not certain from your description exactly what you are feeding.
What is a complete raw food? How much meat are you feeding? Are the
morning meals mainly meat/fat?

Veggies are not beneficial and could possibly be taking up room in the diet
that should be filled with nice meat. They don't need yogurt or cottage
cheese. Eggs are great, but feed the whole thing.

Only you know how much meat/bone you are feeding...should be close to 80%
meat and only 10% bone. If you want to put weight on a dog you either need
to feed more food or more meat and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "juliarna" <juliarna@yahoo.co.uk>

TWO days a complete raw food with meat offal and veges
The rest of the week they get
either tripe beef chicken or lamb. Also twice a week a raw egg yolk.
Twice a week sardines or tuna
Twice a week yoghurt and cottage cheese.
That is the morning meal, on the evening they have chicken carcus or
breat of lamb. Sometimes pigs feet or tails.

Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: blood in stools
Posted by: "Julie Foster" juliarna@yahoo.co.uk juliarna
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

=++Mod note: pls sign and trim messages. This one trimmed for you. +++

Hi Complete raw is a block of either tripe or some other meat. It contains meat offal and veg. The morning meal contain all the other stuff like the yoghurt and cheese and fish. (mainly meat) as mine are mostly big dogs they get between 3/4 lb to a pound of meat. Then the meaty bones of a night. So should I feed 2lb of meat to the lad I am concerned about?
Thanks for your reply and hope this explains more.

Messages in this topic (9)
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5c. Re: blood in stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Julie Foster <juliarna@...> wrote:
>
> So should I feed 2lb of meat to the lad I am concerned about?

Ok Julie,
I don't know what book you read but it completely lead you astray.
Veggies, yogurt, and cheese don't belong in a carnivore's diet.
Forget about the concept of meat and meaty bones. Instead, think of
animal parts.

Now to answer your question. If your dog weighs somewhere between
80 and 120 lbs, 2 lbs might be a good place to start. The 2 lbs
should be meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else. Mostly meat, some
bone, some organs. Exact percentages aren't critical. I suspect
your dog's problem is because his body hasn't adjusted to digesting
real food. This should clear up in a couple more weeks. Some dogs
might take a little longer.

Check out my web page listed below my signiture for more information.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

Hi, Jane!
Its really a "Wait 'n See" and "Know thy Dog" thing. ^_^

Gotts to get some experience under your belts, your dog and you, to find
out. And, it varies - what goes in directly affects what comes out. Bonier
meals tend to be firmer, even whitish and crumbly, while boneless meals tend
to be softer and looser. Fatty meals can result in light colored runny poops
and meals that are heavy on squidgey ick organ and heart can be very dark
and loose or pasty. And, all of it is normal!

Try to feed lots of meat, about 80%, and a little bone, about 10% to avoid
extremes of doggy poo at first. Hold off on feeding organs at all, until you
get through several weeks of successful raw feeding and have introduced a
few different proteins.

Expect that he may have up to several days of no poop after beginning raw
feeding. Raw is so much more digestible and bioavailable, that his body may
take almost all of it into his system and have very little waste to excrete.

TC
Giselle

On Dec 20, 2007 3:18 AM, jesperanueva <jesperanueva@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone!
> I can't even begin to tell you how the topics posted on this site
> has helped me . I have a 12 y/o min. schnauzer and am so worried that
> his age will have an affect on how well he adjusts to the RAW diet. I
> have heard people say that he will be pooping less but is there a
> rough estimate on how often I should expect him to poop? Once a day
> and how many days should I let go by before thinking he is
> constipated? He isn't having a problem at the time but I know poop
> has tell tale signs of health so just wanted to know for early
> detection ^^ =)
>
> Thnx in advance for helping a newb!
> Jane
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

Hi Jane,

It just depends on what you feed, how much you feed, how often you
feed, and your dog's body! My dog who's been raw most of his life gets
fed a variety of things--some bonier, some boneless, some larger meals,
some smaller, etc. So he poops on varying schedules/amounts. He might
go every day or every other day or every few days sometimes. I don't
think he's gone more than 3-4 days without pooping. Then there's the
occasional day when he goes 2 or 3 times. But yes, the volume is less
ever since I cut out veggies. He used to poop out a lot of
indigestible carrots. :-)

My other new dog I just switched 2 days ago hasn't pooped those last 2
days. This is common for newbie dogs and I've given him meals on the
smaller side too, so I'm not concerned. But I may also be feeding a
bit too much bone, so if it continues more than another day or 2, I'll
probably add more meat/reduce bone content.

If your dog isn't straining to poop or pooping really hard stools, I
would think he's probably not constipated.

Hope that helps,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jesperanueva" <jesperanueva@...>
wrote:
> I
> have heard people say that he will be pooping less but is there a
> rough estimate on how often I should expect him to poop? Once a day
> and how many days should I let go by before thinking he is
> constipated?

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "jesperanueva" jesperanueva@yahoo.com jesperanueva
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
Thank you so much Giselle!
Your post has really eased the worrywart in me =) I guess in the
end if he's still urinating and continues to thrive with more energy
then it's a good thing even if he is not pooping as much as he used to =)

Thnx tons!

Jane

Messages in this topic (5)
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6d. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:13 pm ((PST))

Smaller, less frequent poops are a GOOD thing - it means that 1) Your dog is
able to utilize more of what he is being fed and 2) You are not wasting $$
feeding stuff that does your dog no good and just comes out the other end,
and causes you more work to clean up!

Winners all 'round!

^_^

TC
Giselle

On Dec 20, 2007 3:13 PM, jesperanueva <jesperanueva@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> Thank you so much Giselle!
> Your post has really eased the worrywart in me =) I guess in the
> end if he's still urinating and continues to thrive with more energy
> then it's a good thing even if he is not pooping as much as he used to =)
>
> Thnx tons!
>
> Jane
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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7a. Re: posting
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

Juliarna,

It's not you, it yahoogroups. Sometimes posts go right through, sometimes
they take time. If you don't see your posting right away, give yahoogroups
a while to get its brain sorted out...

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses requested
Posted by: "Angela Mariajo" angela.mariajo@yahoo.com angela.mariajo
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:17 pm ((PST))

I am going to take a chance and answer this here so others can
benefit, but we can continue offline if you need more information.

I also rawfeed and I have a PBT (about 45 pounds) that had the same
problem Nov last year. We opted to do the ACL surgery, did the
rehab, restricted activities etc. BUT she managed to tear the same
ACL AGAIN.

This time I am giving her liquid glucosamine/chondrotin/msm formula
called LEVEL 5000 (double doses) and her leg is improving. We are
continuing ROM (range of motion) exercises, a good healthy raw diet
and restricted activity.

Unless you plan on doing a TPLO (Tibia plateau leveling ostemotomy)
doing the typical repair (banding I think they call it) MAY NOT WORK.

If we had to do it all over again I would have done a TPLO on Bonnie
since we had another dog (a rottie) that had to have this procedure
done and NEVER had a problem.

You can contact me offline for more information if you like.

Angela.Mariajo@yahoo.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krheintgen" <krheintgen@...>
wrote:
>
> I am looking for someone who has had some experience with a mid-
sized
> dog with a cruciate ligament tear. Private responses are requested
> so as not to clutter the list as this is OT.
>
> My ESS has been limping on a rear leg. I had her to the
chiropractor
> who can feel instability on the knee and thinks it is a partial
tear
> in the ligament. But with the heavy muscling of the dog she says
she
> cannot be sure it is not torn. There was also a lot of adjusting
> needed in the hips and sacrum areas
>
> She is on Ligaplax and Traumeel, restricted activity etc. I will
> take her back to the chiropractor 1/9/08. She is not in terrible
> pain and I have to stop her from going up and down the stairs.
>
> My quandry is surgery or no surgery. She is raw fed and while she
> had puppy vacs I do not routinely vaccinate anymore. If it can be
> avoided, I would prefer no surgery, but will do it if that is what
is
> best.
>
> Vet sites of course tell you without surgery it will never be right
> and there will be dire consequenses. My chiropractor (who is also
a
> vet) says she has had luck with partial tears healing with out
> surgery, but she wants me to know that surgery is an option.
>
> So, has anyone had a dog with a cruciate ligament injury heal well
> without surgery? Anyone had a bad result going without surgery?
>
> Kathy Rheintgen
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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9. Re: new to raw ... my picky eater
Posted by: "paul holt" azpholt@yahoo.com azpholt
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:17 pm ((PST))

I also have a 40 lb 11month old female shepard/chow mix. Before switching to raw, we tried 3-4 different "high quality" dry dog foods, I boiled eggs for her and gave her little treats of some cooked meats, she turned her nose up at every other thing, every other day, making me worry sick that something was wrong with her. Just prior to switching to raw, we brought another dog into our household, and now, with two dogs, both are happy to show mommy how much they like their food chow(rmb, etc) I do find that Santana, the chow mix, sometimes has a hard time figuring out how to get at the food from her bowl or off the doggie "placemat"(sheet) so, I'll hand it to her and she takes off. Best wishes, Kim

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10a. Re: runny stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cone
<tapenoc4mufflers@...> wrote:
>
> I do not follow a true regiment of 80/10/10. Sometimes they
> get no bone for several days, when stool turns white.

Are you saying the stools are white "out of the chute" or they turn
white a day or two later? If turning white a day or two later, its
no big deal. Don't worry about it. That is pretty common.

> I usually mix a variety together.

Mixing a variety together is not a big deal to dogs. They don't
care. They don't need meals like humans. I suggest for now, you
feed one item a day. That way it will help you determine exactly
what is causing the problem. As long as everything is mixed up, you
have no clue.

I also wouldn't feed ground beef or pork unless you get some at
prices too good to turn down. My dogs get ground deer meat some but
thats about all the ground they get.

> I do feel I may have been feeding too much organ, so will
> cut back.

Just a little glob every week or so is plenty. I would just hand
them a little glob with a meal every so often.

> Too much pork seemed to cause really loose stoolsl, so I add
> just a little to meal.

I suggest you feed a pork roast (not ground) as a meal and see what
happens. You might be surprised.

> My main reason for switching was for their good health. Rocky
> has a constant ear problem, it has been treated with
> antibiotics twice. I hoped raw feeding would clear this up,
> but not to date.

I seriously doubt raw feeding will clear it up BUT if you get it
cleared up completely, I think a raw diet will help it not come back.

> Also he seems to be hunched over a little more than usual, like
> he has a tummy ache.

"Seems to be" tells me you aren't sure. If he has a tummy ache,
there are other ways to tell.

> Is a trip to the vet a must or can I try a remedy you
> may suggest.

Feed him some boney stuff until his stools get firm and try my
suggestions. I think his tummy stuff will clear up. You MIGHT want
to fast him for a day. I'm not convinced it does any good, but it
certainly won't hurt him.

Good luck and keep us posted on progress. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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11a. Pork?
Posted by: "joan" joanlante@yahoo.ca joanlante
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:36 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign messages, otherwise they will be deleted and not make it through moderation. +++++++++++++

Hi...I'm new actually only been a week that one of my dogs is on
RAW...now I know it's ok for turkey and chicken necks..chicken
wings.....beef cubes...hamberger patties ..veggies...eggs with shell a
bit of yogurt.etc etc..but I'm confused about pork as I wanted to give
spareribs...is this a no no and why???

Messages in this topic (18)
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11b. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST))

> I know it's ok for turkey and chicken necks..chicken wings

Well, depending on the size of your dogs necks and wings can be iffy.
They are just about the right size for an adventurous dog to try and
swallow it whole, and that isn't a good thing. They also don't have
much to offer in the meat department, so you shouldn't be feeding
mostly these items.

> beef cubes...hamberger patties

You want your dog to actually rip and tear into their food to get not
only a good workout but also to keep their mouth clean. Cubed and
ground foods don't do that, and again, adventurous dogs can easily try
to inhale these things.

>veggies

Nope, no veggies needed. Dogs are carnivores and don't have any
requirement for vegetation.

> eggs with shell

Yes, whole eggs are not only nutritious but also fun for many dogs.

> a bit of yogurt

Just like the veggies, there is no need for yogurt. The foodstuffs
appropriate for the species are meat bones and organs, the stuff you
would find in a prey animal. Nothing more is needed.

> but I'm confused about pork as I wanted to give spareribs...is this a
> no no and why???

Ah, pork is a yes yes in my book. It's a good cheap red meat. A whole
slab of ribs is good, as is a pork shoulder roast and any other large
part you can get. No reason to fear pork!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (18)
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11c. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Joan!
Umm, its NOT OK to feed veggies and yogurt. This is not part of
a species appropriate whole prey diet.

And, feeding necks of any kind and wings really depends on the size of your
dog, and shouldn't make up the main part of any dog's diet.

Also, while beef cubes and ground beef may be temptingly cheap at times -
they too, shouldn't be fed in preference to large whole critter parts in a
variety of protein sources.

Similar to feeding Doom Nuggets (tm Carrie), just because a dog can live on
them, doesn't mean that they are optimal nourishment for our dogs. They are
just a small part of the whole raw whole prey picture.

As for pork, this is a great protein! Spareribs, depending on your dog, his
size and crunching capacity, may be alright. But, they are only one small
park of a pig, and are not the meatiest part!
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts_photos/pork.pdf

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 20, 2007 3:30 PM, joan <joanlante@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> +++Mod note: pls sign messages, otherwise they will be deleted and not
> make it through moderation. +++++++++++++
>
> Hi...I'm new actually only been a week that one of my dogs is on
> RAW...now I know it's ok for turkey and chicken necks..chicken
> wings.....beef cubes...hamburger patties ..veggies...eggs with shell a
> bit of yogurt.etc etc..but I'm confused about pork as I wanted to give
> spareribs...is this a no no and why???
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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12a. Introducing Myself!
Posted by: "Amy T" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:37 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,
I sent out a post yesterday on my "picky eater," but I did not
introduce myself. I am Amy, and my pooch's name is Rosie. She's a 1
year-old chow /shepherd mix, about 40 lbs ... and an absolute doll,
though very much an "inner circle girl." We switched to Solid Gold Wolf
Cub from Nutro after the recalls here in the U.S., and then to raw
about three weeks ago. We live in the city of Chicago, and frequent the
dog beach here year round. Mmmm... that's about it. Rosie is doing very
well on the diet. She has a stomach of steel, so far, and we've taken
advantage of some of the ethnic grocery stores and purchased a variety
of meats and organs. As a vegetarian, I find the chicken feet the
creepiest of all! BTW, we found this link through Dogster.com!
Amy

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. cat is joining us
Posted by: "donna" heartathome@att.net jubileeberry
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

hello i am donna from alabama.. i have a 6 week old neapolitan
mastiff that i just got and started on chicken..she is quite enjoying
her meals, I have a 2 year old cat who is determined to share the
raw goodies and sits and watches the puppy eating and awaits her time
to pounce and steal her bone.. so i guess she is telling me she
wants a raw diet :)
to update...for a week i have been giving chicken legs... she is
doing great. I have put her in a crate to eat so I know where she is
at while eating and when done as she is not of course house trained
yet ...

--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite

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13a. For liver...try searing....
Posted by: "Erin Hartiens-Santiago" erinhart75@yahoo.com erinhart75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:06 pm ((PST))

My two of my four dogs refuse liver and kidney. I think something
with the texture is offensive to them. I tried mixing with egg...they
just licked the egg off. Mixing with other meats....they ate around
it. Even my cat was offended by the kidney (it smells pretty bad!). I
finally tried searing lightly (just enough to brown outside - about
15-20 seconds in a hot pan with a touch of oil) and they REALLY loved
it. Maybe it's psychological....They've trained me to give them
gourmet liver treats! haha

I also only feed the organ meats once a week (since it takes a little
more time to "cook" the meat) - plus they get such a small percentage
of that in their total diet, I can give them a bigger portion all at
once.

Good luck -
Cheers!
Erin Santiago and crew
(Sissy, Jake, Murray, Ollie and Maya)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >There is less and less interest in liver lately
>
> Hi. I think that force feeding is not something Il ike to do to my
dog.I rather like my dog eats it with open paws.did you try many
tricks to feed it??such as....
>
> 1>Quick sear
> 2>serve freeze
> 3> Mix with raw Egg
> 4>Mix with Tripe
> 5> Flavoring the liver with garlic or fish oil
>
> etc??
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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