[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12392

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Quick stool question
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Quick stool question
From: SLib700@aol.com
1c. Re: Quick stool question
From: adkjoe17
1d. Re: Quick stool question
From: carnesbill
1e. Re: Quick stool question
From: katkellm

2a. Re: puppy stages
From: Andrea

3a. Re: How much fish oil?
From: Andrea
3b. Re: How much fish oil?
From: geraldinebutterfield

4a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Chia
4b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: m td
4c. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: geraldinebutterfield
4d. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Shirley

5a. Re: reflux problem
From: carnesbill

6a. I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
From: tizianaruff
6b. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
From: bluegracepwd
6c. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
From: costrowski75
6d. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
From: mozookpr

7a. Re: pork shoulder
From: geraldinebutterfield

8a. Re: fasting question
From: geraldinebutterfield

9a. Deer meat = more poop??
From: macluerssen
9b. Re: Deer meat = more poop??
From: bluegracepwd

10.1. Constipation
From: shooflyf
10.2. Re: Constipation
From: bluegracepwd
10.3. Re: Constipation
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Duck anyone?
From: Sonja

Messages
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1a. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:31 am ((PST))

Raw fed dogs require more effort to poo than those fed doom nuggets.
Many people think my dogs are constipated if they watch them poo when
that's just how they do it. If, however you are seeing whitish crumbly
poo coming out when she is straining you need to add more meat to her
meals.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:

> Is it normal for her to take longer pooing when eating raw? thanks!

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "SLib700@aol.com" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:51 am ((PST))

I too was just watching mine poop and was wondering the same thing,I saw
some whitish material in her's-is that normal? Thanks! Annette.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:49 am ((PST))

Andrea wrote:

> Raw fed dogs require more effort to poo than those fed doom nuggets.
> Many people think my dogs are constipated if they watch them poo when
> that's just how they do it.
Andrea

Andrea,
I feel a lot better now thanks!! That makes sense it would take more
effort, thanks for the reassurance.

Joe

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:49 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>
> Is it normal for her to take longer pooing when
> eating raw? thanks!

3-5 minutes is a **L O N G** time to sit like that. Is this an
exaguration? Yes, its normal for raw fed dogs to take a little longer
to poo but not anywhere near that much time.

To Annette: Yes it's normal to see some white fragments in the poo of
newly switched dogs. These are small bone fragments and will stop
happening over time. They are not dangerous. It just takes the dog a
while for it's body to learn to digest real food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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1e. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:50 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>
> Been feeding my 13 week old Siberian whole chickens for about 2 weeks
> now. She seems like she is having trouble pooping.

Hi Joe,
Can i please ask how you know for sure that you aren't giving too much
bone? Two weeks on nothing but whole chickens, unless you are adding
some boneless meat, in which case you can probably delete this post,
really sounds like it could be too much bone. Just a thought, KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: puppy stages
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:32 am ((PST))

> chicken drumsticks, wings, carcasses, necks, turkey necks, lamb liver
> and hearts.

With the exception of hearts I don't see any meat on the menu. I don't
know if it would cause thinning hair around the eyes, but your pup most
definitely needs a whole lot more meat in the diet. Remember, you want
to feed mostly meat with only a little bone and a little organ.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: How much fish oil?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:51 am ((PST))

You might want to check the archives for posts about fish oil dosages,
but here's what I go by:

Get capsules that have at least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA in them. For
maintenance give one capsule for every 20-30lbs of dog per day. For
therapeutic dose give one capsule for every 10lbs of dog per day.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blueberry5297" <blueberry5297@...>
wrote:

> is there a general rule of thumb for how many fish oil capsules
> should be given a day/week by weight of the dog?
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: How much fish oil?
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:14 am ((PST))

The fish oil I use is cold water salmon oil. EPA 160mg, DHA 240mg. She
is only 10 lbs so it sounds like I can give her 1/2 capsule per day. I
know not everyone agrees with suplementing... I just think fish oil is
good for her. My husband is successful at fishing so we have a lot of
fhish but she will have NOTHING to do with any of it.

geraldine

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> You might want to check the archives for posts about fish oil
dosages,
> but here's what I go by:
>
> Get capsules that have at least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA in them.
For
> maintenance give one capsule for every 20-30lbs of dog per day. For
> therapeutic dose give one capsule for every 10lbs of dog per day.
>
> Andrea
>
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:05 am ((PST))

So my reply was "That was rude, uncalled for and vague. Educate
yourself before you attack others for there beliefs in the future."

What would you do? I'm sure I'll probably get other similar replies
since this nut showed up so quick!

@@@@ just tell them that you choose to feed your family naturally, AND
your pets, and since kibble doesn't grow on trees, it is obviously not
appropriate for their ultimate health and well being. You could also
nicely mention that your animals deserve the effort, no matter the extra
effort.

People are generally sheep, just following the crowd, not standing up for
themselves and YOU should be VERY proud that YOU are doing the right thing,
NOT the easy thing.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "m td" mtd885@yahoo.com mtd885
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:50 am ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign emails ++++

There's a whole lot of people raising their kids on TV
dinners/McD's/BK etc. You can't possibly expect them
to understand YOUR desire to feed a dog/cat etc a
natural diet when they can't figure out to feed
themselves properly! Heck they told my I was
diabetic. I radically altered my diet. lost 60 lbs and
my blood sugar was 76 yesterday before eating. Now I'm
eating my grandmothers old recipes (no prepared or
packaged foods!!!) I feel Mahvelous. Meanwhile Abby
has taken to her Raw diet with no fuss at all. I
started her on chicken. Now she's had Turkey Pork Beef
Fish, next is lamb...mtd

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Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

Isn¡¦t it mind-blowing!!??!! I sometimes feel like comparing it to
trying to explain to people why humans should eat fresh food instead
of a Big Mac!! It is crazy, I just can¡¦t understand how anyone could
think raw food is bad for an animal ƒ¼ when it¡¦s as natural as you can
get.

How about pointing them to the raw website?

geraldine

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...>
wrote:
>
> >
> Some luney sends me an email that said only "Trying to kill off your
> dogs?"
>
>>
> What would you do? I'm sure I'll probably get other similar replies
> since this nut showed up so quick!
>
> Erika :)
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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4d. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Shirley" ssthunderpony@yahoo.com ssthunderpony
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:14 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok here is a little laugh for you guys...
>
> So I happen to have 7 bags of Natural Balance dog food left over
>
> So my reply was "That was rude, uncalled for and vague. Educate
> yourself before you attack others for there beliefs in the future."
>

>
> Erika :)
>
############# Good girl ! Ya done well. You did post a
little 'nudge' by saying something about your raw feeding decision so
comments to the contrary should be expected. I believe in the 'need
to know' concept in conversation concerning my raw fed dogs.

# # # # My fav reply to someone like that is ...........

~ ~ Your failure to be informed does not make me a wacko. ~anon~

Shirley & the Kitchen Wolves

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: reflux problem
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:49 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell"
<jenniferhell@...> wrote:
>
> What can I give my girl when she has a bout of heartburn?

What has the vet done to determine it is heartburn(reflux)?

> She sometimes has too much acid a few hours after eating (perhaps
> twice a month, sometimes more often).

I don't think there is a such thing as too much acid a few hours
after eating. The dog needs all the acid it can get to digest the
food in its tummy. I think it's possible to have too much acid a
few hours before eating but not after. Thats where the bile vomit
comes from.

> She wants outside then to eat grass, before that she's
> hiccuping and smacking her lips.

Have you tried feeding her when she does this? If in fact there
really is too much acid in the stomach, feeding would take care of
it.

> After half an hour or less, it's over and she goes back to sleep.

I don't have any idea what the problem is but I just don't see too
much acid as the cause. I wish I had some constructive suggestions.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
Posted by: "tizianaruff" queentiz@msn.com tizianaruff
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:50 am ((PST))

I have been feeding my first Weimaraner now 10 month old raw food diet
because of his awful allergies with success since he was 8 months. I
have been following in the background the suggestions given by the
group, he can eat chicken back, chicken quarter or the whole chicken,
turkey neck,the whole turkey, chicken giblets, liver and heart with no
problems. The problem started with my other Weim, now 1 1/2 year old.
I wanted to put her on the same diet. She simply does not like it. I
have been trying for over 1 month. She vomits, she has diarrhea, and
the only thing that she would eat is a little chop meat. Yesterday I
gave the both of them pork shoulder with catastrophic result
especially for the oldest one. Any suggestions? Is there a possibility
that she could just be allergic? I know that all of you will be
laughing, but she is getting skinny and I am getting worry and I think
I saw some blood in her stool this morning and I am just soooo
concern. Should I put her back on her regular store bought Natural
Brand food or continue?
Thank you
Tiziana

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:53 am ((PST))

Hello Tiziana,

well definitely no one is laughing at your situation.

Exactly what are you feeding the dogs? Are you still feeding kibble
amongst this?

- Jane

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:33 am ((PST))

"tizianaruff" <queentiz@...> wrote:
The problem started with my other Weim, now 1 1/2 year old.
> I wanted to put her on the same diet. She simply does not like it. I
> have been trying for over 1 month. She vomits, she has diarrhea, and
> the only thing that she would eat is a little chop meat.
*****
First off, a month is not a long time. It often takes considerably
longer to find the best food for a dog.

Secondly, I recommend you get rid of ALL the variety you have been
giving this Weim, and start from scratch with skinless chicken breast,
and offer multiple small meals. Heck, you could even go so far as to
take Bill Carnes' advice and feed nothing but chicken backs if you need
to, although personally I feel that's more extreme than necessary.
Certainly though three meals a day, two of which are chicken backs may
be what the girl needs to stablize.

If after you've retreated to a single food source the girl continues to
vomit you may have to try a new protein. I assume she has no digestive
problems on kibble, yes? That this reaction is solely related to raw
food?

If a food continually upsets a dog, the food will be rejected. If
chopped beef is all that stays put, then of course she'll prefer it. I
don't think dogs are masochists. You might try chop beef fed with
chicken backs. Meat she tolerates, plus easy-to-eat bone. You never
know.

I doubt she is allergic to all meat proteins. I doubt she's allergic
to any meat proteins, but she may need to be eeaaasssseeed into a
workable raw diet. Definintely throwing her into the kitchen sink is
not working.

Yesterday I
> gave the both of them pork shoulder with catastrophic result
> especially for the oldest one.
*****
Too much food, too much fat--too soon. Back way off to the last
successful food the more experienced dog ate and feed that til the dog
is normal. And don't feed the 1-1/2 year old ANY pork til you have
established as solid base to work from. Pork shoulder is a fine big
food to offer but you have offer it within the context of what the dog
is accustomed to and ready for.

It seems clear that neither of your dogs were ready for a lot of fatty,
novel protein. Put the idea on ice for now; try again later. You got
lots o' time.

> I know that all of you will be
> laughing, but she is getting skinny and I am getting worry and I think
> I saw some blood in her stool this morning
*****
The blood is an indication that her colon is irritated. This should
come as no surprise, given what she's been though. You can offer her
some Slippery Elm powder dry (sprinkled over some chop meat) or mix it
into some low sodium chicken broth. Beyond that, the girl's system
needs a rest. This would be one of those times when skipping a meal or
two (some people refer to this as "fasting") would be useful.

We are NOT laughing. I think most of us--newcomers and more
experienced raw feeders alike--have been where you are and have
struggled for solutions. Patience and simplicity are two great tools.

Also. Do not ignore the value of good diagnostics. If you cannot
stablize the girl after considerable and creative effort, you may be
dealing with issues than diet adjustments alone cannot remedy. Talk to
your vet. See your vet. Don't let either of you get sidetracked by
raw, the focus should be the girl's insides.

Chin up, good luck and keep us in the loop, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tizianaruff" <queentiz@...> wrote:
>
She vomits, she has diarrhea, and
> the only thing that she would eat is a little chop meat.

I am by no means an expert, but I would take that dog to a vet if she
is getting too thin. Could be there is something going on with her
besides just a change in diet. A healthy dog will not starve itself
when food is available.

Wishing you well with your kids,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@> wrote:>
My 10 lb little girl eats raw pork every week... she loves it. She
also had ox tail and loves that too. Today will be the first beef
tongue. Funny, the only way I have been able to get her to eat liver
is either drying it (messy) or freezing chunks. However, a friend
gave me several packages of liver from her cows and she loves this
just the way it is without any fuss. Something to be said for home
grown.

I would try pork again if I were you.

geraldine

> > I have not fed ANY pork to my dogs since one of my min pin
almost
> died of 1 bite of pork chop. It has been many years ago and I no
> longer remember the explaination for it but it was almost as if
she
> was poisioned by it.
> *****
>
> > But you are telling me it is ok to feed raw pork???
> >
> > Sherrel (gulp)
> *****
> Gulp, yes.
> And it's a good thang, too, since my local Safeway is selling
> shoulder roasts for .69/lb this week! Dogs will be eating some
red
> meat, you betcha.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (26)
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8a. Re: fasting question
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

My take-away from all of the input is for me to listen to my dog. I
am truly a food pusher even with humans. I just like to see animals
and people eat… a comfort thing I guess. Anyway, I keep thinking she
has to eat breakfast and dinner. However, unless I offer a fantastic
treat in the morning my little girl is not interested in eating
until much later in the day. I guess she is sort of mini fasting
herself… not imposed by me. I will learn to understand and go with
what comes natural for her.

Thanks everyone,
geraldine

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@> wrote:
> >
> > Routine fasting is in fact good and healthful for dogs; it
replicates
> > the unpredictable feeding patterns of wild dogs.
> *****
> No, unpredictable feeding patterns replicate the unpredictable
feeding
> patterns of wolves (I prefer to use an appropriate reference,
thank
> you). A human-imposed fast simply replicates whatever value the
human
> has placed on fasting.
>
> Given the other limitations you have imposed on your dogs--lack of
> variety, lack of dietary fat--it does seem reasonable that you
would
> also impose upon them the artifice of "fasting". Dogs, wild dogs,
> wolves do not fast. When they don't feel like eating, they don't
eat.
> When they feel like eating but can't, they don't eat. Otherwise,
they
> eat.
>
> As with your other observations, I am both puzzled and distressed
by
> the advice you offer. None of it seems natural; rather it seems
> strained and unnecessarily dramatic. Nevertheless, I am delighted
that
> you and your dogs get on so well together. One can hardly ask for
more
> than that.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Deer meat = more poop??
Posted by: "macluerssen" macluerssen@yahoo.com macluerssen
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:06 am ((PST))

Hi all! We were lucky enough to have a hunter friend share his buck
with us...TONS of deer bones and a good amount of meat, too! Our 2
dogs have been feasting on (frozen) deer for a few days. One of the
dogs (the one who gets more food) has started pooping a LOT more.
She'll wake us up in the middle of the night to go out, and she TRIPLE-
bagged us on one 20-minute walk last week! The poop all seems
healthy, not runny or anything. I'm just wondering if anybody else
has had this experience, or what might cause this "over-abundance"?
The other dog doesn't seem to have changed his bowel habits much, if
at all.

Weird?

Thanks,
Tina

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Deer meat = more poop??
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:23 am ((PST))

Hi Tina,

what goes in must come out. The dog has just eaten a lot and this now
needs to leave the system.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (2)
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10.1. Constipation
Posted by: "shooflyf" shooflyf@yahoo.com shooflyf
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:15 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign emails ++++

Hi -

Sorry if this has been covered a bunch of times but i'm not finding
what i want in searching old posts. I have a border collie that's
having a lot of problems with constipation. Once she even had to have
"help" (gloved finger) because she was so backed up. That was the
first time this happened and i attributed it to too much bone - she'd
had a pork neck bone and i messed up and gave it too close timewise to
some kibble (this was when i was first switching over to raw and
wasn't quite all the way there). I switched her completely over and
have really restricted the amount of bone with her, enough so that i
actually worry that's she's not getting enough calcium. The second
time, there really was no good explanation for it. She was on 100%
raw, not much bone, higher fat beef and pork, 10% organ meat. This
weekend she was constipated again, after a meal of a small amount of
Evo soaked in a lot of water, mixed with ground organ meat/high fat
beef mixture. None of these resulted in chalky white poop, just
really hard and dry.

Can anyone offer suggestions or ideas? I need to increase this dog's
food as well, she's a little thin.

Messages in this topic (52)
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10.2. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:17 am ((PST))

Hold on a minute - what the heck is Evo? Isn't this a commercial food
product? This has absolutely no part in an appropriate raw diet.

Why are you feeding ground food?

I think the issues you're seeing and very easily explained.

- Jane

Messages in this topic (52)
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10.3. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:53 am ((PST))

"shooflyf" <shooflyf@...> wrote:>>
> Can anyone offer suggestions or ideas? I need to increase this dog's
> food as well, she's a little thin.
*****
Stop feeding the EVO. Even brands as foofoo as EVO contain binders to
firm up stools. Besides which, the raw menu doesn't include kibble.

Second, don't worry about her dietary bone. She can go days without
bone (weeks even). Continue to feed her fatty meats and make sure you
are including "rich" meats like heart and liver. Lube those tubes. A
fattier diet will also add weight, as will feeding more food in
general.

Encourage her to drink water.

Make sure she's getting enough exercise (yes, with a BC this is often
hard to do).

If she's on meds, check to see if constipation is a side effect. When
I was giving one of my dogs Tramadol for dental problems, she was
terribly constipated til I adjusted her dosage.

And of course, are you perhaps expecting the same sort of regularity
that kibble provides? Is this her discomfort we're addressing, or
yours?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (52)
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11a. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

I'm in So Cal and I get the same duck for .79 a pound through our buying group. The difference is that these ducks are generally stewing ducks.....not very tender and a bit older than the roasting ducks that fetch a higher dollar amount. As far as i can tell, the dogs don't care. :-)

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (7)
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