[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12391

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Because you all will understand my glee
From: Mary Tinder

2a. Re: ready to throw the towel...
From: ma_petite_gazelle
2b. Re: ready to throw the towel...
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: ready to throw the towel...
From: sisterloui

3a. Re: pork shoulder
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: pork shoulder
From: Erika

4.1. Re: New to this list
From: carnesbill
4.2. Re: New to this list
From: katkellm

5a. Re: fasting question
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: fasting question
From: blue eyed

6a. Deer Meat...So sorry new to all of this?
From: markmdevlin
6b. Re: Deer Meat...So sorry new to all of this?
From: katkellm

7a. Wow people are nutz!
From: redangelbordeaux
7b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: sisterloui
7c. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Yasuko herron
7d. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Cathy

8a. reflux problem
From: jennifer_hell
8b. Re: reflux problem
From: Giselle
8c. Re: reflux problem
From: jennifer_hell

9. puppy stages
From: dario

10a. Re: Duck anyone?
From: Caren OConnor

11. Quick stool question
From: adkjoe17

Messages
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1a. Re: Because you all will understand my glee
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:38 pm ((PST))

Wow! Excellennnnt! How did you manage it?
Mary T
> ... at picking up 120 pounds of chicken leg quarters for $68.00!!

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "ma_petite_gazelle" gaelle6@rogers.com ma_petite_gazelle
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:45 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

thank you Chia and Sonja.

My dog had his usual vaccinations in June (will address this next year
as well), no medications or anything since except for the interceptor
until fall. As I said, I gave him probiotics when I switched him to
raw, but I'm going to run out very soon (a few days) so I guess I'll
stop them right now and just keep giving him chicken until his latest
hot spot has cleared, and then for a little longer after that.
Maybe I was indeed too fast trying to introduce new meats too soon. I
will stick to chicken for a little longer before trying something new
again. At least you guys gave me some hope, so I appreciate your help.

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ma_petite_gazelle" <gaelle6@...>
wrote:
> So he's back to chicken, once more. He's doing fine on it, but
> I know
> he just can't be on chicken only for the rest of his life.

Well, I wouldn't be toooooo upset. Like someone else said, 100%
chicken is better than the best kibble made. Maybe at some later
date you can introduce some other meat source he cah handle and
maybe you never can.

Dr. Lonsdale wrote in his book "Work Wonders", "When I ran a busy
veterinary practice, many of my clients fed almost exclusively
chicken backs and frames -- whether to adult dogs or litters of
puppies -- and their animals showed excellent health."

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:15 pm ((PST))

Just a little bit to add to all the good advice given so far.

I know that this may be veering slightly off topic but along with
dietary advice to combat the effect of the allergies. Have you done a
general product test in your home. You know simple things like trying a
different floor cleaner, furniture polish, or is he chewing certain
grasses or weeds whilst out walking etc ?

Sorry if you have already covered this, and I do hope you get to the
root of the problem soon.

Best wishes
Jane
(sisterloui uk)

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:04 pm ((PST))

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...> wrote:>
> I have not fed ANY pork to my dogs since one of my min pin almost
died of 1 bite of pork chop. It has been many years ago and I no
longer remember the explaination for it but it was almost as if she
was poisioned by it.
*****
"Almost as if" applied to a vague memory from long ago doesn't count
for much except a firmly packed dose of superstition. I think it
would be to your advantage to research what happened to your dog way
back then so you can get on with the present. If your dog did almost
die from trich from a bite of raw pork chop, you can rest assured
that trich has been considered a non-issue in the US for 20 years or
so. And if your dog was made ill by a piece of cooked pork chop,
trich wouldn't have been the culprit at all. If she really had been
poisoned by a bite of pork (this is redolent of Snow White, no?) I
can promise you that that hunk of pork is long, long gone.

I suspect this is a case of an event being linked inappropriately to
another event, much like my old golden associating thunder to
standing under a certain tree.

> But you are telling me it is ok to feed raw pork???
>
> Sherrel (gulp)
*****
Gulp, yes.
And it's a good thang, too, since my local Safeway is selling
shoulder roasts for .69/lb this week! Dogs will be eating some red
meat, you betcha.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (25)
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3b. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:59 pm ((PST))

Gulp, yes.
And it's a good thang, too, since my local Safeway is selling
shoulder roasts for .69/lb this week! Dogs will be eating some red
meat, you betcha.
Chris O

___I just read that special at my Safeway too! I can't wait to make some room in my freezer (just filled it up!) so that I can go and stock up on some pork!

Erika

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Messages in this topic (25)
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4.1. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...>
wrote:
>
> But can someone explain "prey model diet".

Prey Model means feeding either whole carcasses or indiviual animal
parts mimicking whole animals as closely as you can manage. Don't
worry too much about exact replication of a prey animal.

> I am not very good with numbers how do I know 80 - 10 - 10 %
> is acheived?

Don't worry about numbers. We feed animal parts not numbers.
Basically you feed mostly meat, some bone and some organ. Exact
percentages just aren't critical. I seriously doubt if anyone is
feeding exactly 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ.

> But the girls are thinking they can live with real, raw meat.

I'm thinking they can thrive on it. :) :) :)

> We are kidding about it making them aggressive Right?

Yes definately.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (43)
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4.2. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> Prey Model means feeding either whole carcasses or indiviual animal
> parts mimicking whole animals as closely as you can manage. Don't
> worry too much about exact replication of a prey animal.

Hi Sherrel,
When i first started raw feeding, the term Frankenprey was one of my
favorites in helping me to "get" the idea of feeding whole prey. Ya
know, the heart of a cow, the ribs of a pig, the breast of a chicken,
the leg of a turkey, the liver of a lamb ....if you piece enough
pieces together eventually you come up with whole critter. KathyM

Messages in this topic (43)
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5a. Re: fasting question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:32 pm ((PST))

"Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:
>
> Routine fasting is in fact good and healthful for dogs; it replicates
> the unpredictable feeding patterns of wild dogs.
*****
No, unpredictable feeding patterns replicate the unpredictable feeding
patterns of wolves (I prefer to use an appropriate reference, thank
you). A human-imposed fast simply replicates whatever value the human
has placed on fasting.

Given the other limitations you have imposed on your dogs--lack of
variety, lack of dietary fat--it does seem reasonable that you would
also impose upon them the artifice of "fasting". Dogs, wild dogs,
wolves do not fast. When they don't feel like eating, they don't eat.
When they feel like eating but can't, they don't eat. Otherwise, they
eat.

As with your other observations, I am both puzzled and distressed by
the advice you offer. None of it seems natural; rather it seems
strained and unnecessarily dramatic. Nevertheless, I am delighted that
you and your dogs get on so well together. One can hardly ask for more
than that.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: fasting question
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:08 am ((PST))

It depends on the dog, some are suited to it and some, it just dosnt matter. It suits mine as I feel that if he has a fast day once a week that (as long as you add to the other meals) it stops him deciding when/what he needs/wants to eat and it does him no harm. He used to fast himself anyway but this allows me to still control the food and for him to understand that the food is mine and he eats when I give him the food. Not only this but I feel stools remain good for longer than i felt they did prior to introducing the fast day so must help in some way. Someone once told me that they were not designed to eat every single day as they would not always do this in the wild and thats probably why there are so many bouts of loose/soft motions in dogs that are fed everyday. It seems to be true going by my own dog but they are all different.

Basically, 'know your dog' and do what you think will be best suited to them as well as what you feel comfy with.

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Deer Meat...So sorry new to all of this?
Posted by: "markmdevlin" markmdevlin@yahoo.com markmdevlin
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:35 pm ((PST))

I hope I don't offend anybody here. I just can't seem to locate the
info I need, 'but' I know it's here somewhere. So at the risk of
sounding stupid (it's never stopped me before) here goes.
Hubbie brought home a road kill deer. It ran into the side of his car,
and was stunned. He turned his car around to make sure it was O.K. and
it was just getting back up, seemingly just stunned. Unfortunately
another car coming in the opposite direction, failed to heed hubbie's
attempts to 'warn' the driver to slow down. In short he ran the deer
over again. This time it died. So....hubbie put the carcas in the car
and brought it home. He's never skinned/gutted anything before, but he
did it, after phoning a neighbour for advice. Now I know he has to hang
the carcus for 5 days (this was saturday), but what about the things
that are still in the cold garage in a dustbin (head/legs/skin), can
these be fed as well, and how long do they need to be in the freezer,
before they are fed out? I believe he discarded the intestines only.
Jay.

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Deer Meat...So sorry new to all of this?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
...., but what about the things
> that are still in the cold garage in a dustbin (head/legs/skin), can
> these be fed as well, and how long do they need to be in the freezer,
> before they are fed out?

Hi Jay,
Yes, as in a big yes, they can be fed. My dogs love deer heads. Now
that it is hunting season in Illinois they have been dining
exclusively on deer parts. You didn't mention, or if you did i don't
recall, the size of your dogs, but yes you can feed the legs. Lower
legs with the hoof attached are completely edible for my dogs, but i
have largish-aussie, lab, jindo dogs. With any bone that you have
from the deer,regardless of your dog's size, offer it to your dog and
let them strip the meat,sinew... off of them. If you see that it
progresses to the point that they are gnawing on a bare naked bone,
just remove it. I feed deer stuff right away, but if you are worried
about parasites, you can freeze for a week or 2 first. KathyM

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7a. Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:49 pm ((PST))

Ok here is a little laugh for you guys...

So I happen to have 7 bags of Natural Balance dog food left over
along with canned and food rolls from when I made the switch. It's a
pretty good dog food as far as kibble goes and quite expensive for
people to purchase around here. I thought I was doing a good thing by
offering it on craigslist at a good price for someone who may need it.

So I mentioned in my post that the only reason I am selling it is
because I switched to feeding my dogs a RAW diet and that the dog
food was not a part of the recall etc.

Some luney sends me an email that said only "Trying to kill off your
dogs?"

What nerve this person has! Obviously has no life of his own to do
such a thing in the middle of the night to boot, lol!

So my reply was "That was rude, uncalled for and vague. Educate
yourself before you attack others for there beliefs in the future."

What would you do? I'm sure I'll probably get other similar replies
since this nut showed up so quick!

Erika :)

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7b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:07 pm ((PST))

Hi Erika,

I have not had so dramatic a statement made to me but my family
certainly did give me some very odd looks at first but at least held
their tongue and watched the health of my Lab carefully. Very happy to
say after a few weeks the comments were all positive or at the very
least inquisitive and fact finding for their own dogs.

I have only had one "stranger" comment and I just replied with "oh how
much sugar and colourings do you reccommend I add to a diet" funnily i
didnt get a reply.(GRIN)

best wishes
Jane

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7c. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:07 pm ((PST))

>I thought I was doing a good thing by offering it on craigslist at a good price for someone who may need it.

I too had unopned kibble in our closet that came to home after switching to raw(it was back-ordered month ago before switch:-<)

So, I was going to donate to shelter but,since my sister in law in Indiana wanted to get it sincethey have 2 husky pup and go through quickly,I am still keeping it.

If you ever did not get any reply from people on that list,you can always donate things to shelters.They maybe need basic dog supplies a lot andit would be a good help.

My kibble was also not cheap but, I have no use so,decided to give away.

I will bring it to IN with us.

Well,I think many people thinks bone isdangerous because they do not know anything in depth as much as rawfeeders so, I do not get surprised to get such a reply.

When I was on breed list, 99% people was saying I am not doing good on diet and dangerous. I think I may have been the only one who feed raw. Everyone suggested to put my dog on rawwhich they think is complete balanced... well...

I think that people whi feed raw tend to read more about feeding and lean a lot and people who don't just don't read much so,lacking info on feeding part andstay with old belief.

My sisters in law are as you can tell,feeding kibble.They know I feed raw and,I sent palette eating goat meat and palette eating cow hooves along with christmas card and i can imagine they maybe wowed looking at meat sizeandher head size,lol.

They don't ask anything yet but since I feed raw at my mother in law house so,hopefully,they see me feeding and get interest in feeding it. and learn the better healthier diet plan.But I can't force her to switch.I just hope they would some day.

to the person who tells you rawfeeding is dangerous,I think that no matter what you say,they don't change their belief and no improvement in conversation so,I just say nothing and forget about it would be better.

yassy

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7d. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:32 am ((PST))

I fed the natural balance before i switched. My dogs did well but it was getting harder to find in my area. As i had been researching about raw I to made the switch....but I was completely out.
Ignorance is everywhere so I normally smile & walk away...but I love your responce!
Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

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8a. reflux problem
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:51 am ((PST))

What can I give my girl when she has a bout of heartburn?
I have kept a journal, and cannot link it to anything- it just happens
(and did, when she was still on k*bble).
She sometimes has too much acid a few hours after eating (perhaps
twice a month, sometimes more often).
She wants outside then to eat grass, before that she's hiccuping and
smacking her lips.
After half an hour or less, it's over and she goes back to sleep. But
as that often happens in the late evening, when we're already in bed,
I'd like to give her something to help her, without her having to go out.
We have something here called "healing earth", which helps humans with
heartburn. Could I give her that? Slippery elm bark doesn't help.

Jennifer

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8b. Re: reflux problem
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:08 am ((PST))

Hi, Jennifer!
I hate to say this, but are you SURE its heartburn from
reflux and not pancreatitis?

It may be something else entirely, too, but if this were my dog, having had
a dog with pancreatitis, I'd get some diagnostic tests done asap.

If it is pancreatitis, very low fat and small, but frequent meals help.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 18, 2007 4:01 AM, jennifer_hell <jenniferhell@web.de> wrote:

> What can I give my girl when she has a bout of heartburn?
> I have kept a journal, and cannot link it to anything- it just happens
> (and did, when she was still on k*bble).
> She sometimes has too much acid a few hours after eating (perhaps
> twice a month, sometimes more often).
> She wants outside then to eat grass, before that she's hiccuping and
> smacking her lips.
> After half an hour or less, it's over and she goes back to sleep. But
> as that often happens in the late evening, when we're already in bed,
> I'd like to give her something to help her, without her having to go out.
> We have something here called "healing earth", which helps humans with
> heartburn. Could I give her that? Slippery elm bark doesn't help.
>
> Jennifer
>

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8c. Re: reflux problem
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:08 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jennifer!
> I hate to say this, but are you SURE its heartburn from
> reflux and not pancreatitis?
>
Heya Giselle,
yes, I'm quite sure about that. When I posted about this for the first
time,and you asked me this, I had the vet do some kind of blood tests
and checked her through, and she was fine all around (and my vet has a
positive attitude towards raw feeding, yay!!). It's really just a
heartburn problem. She has no idea either what might be causing it.
Smaller meals throughout the day don't seem to change anything, plus
she's not hungry during the day. She gets breakfast now though, just
in case... At first I suspected beef to cause it, but 12h later? Hmmm...
So, what could I give her when she has a bout? I don't want to put her
on some kind of meds as a preventative, because sometimes she only has
it for ten minutes one time in a month, so I'd think that would be
over the top.

Jennifer with Mandy

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9. puppy stages
Posted by: "dario" nanterossi@yahoo.co.uk nanterossi
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:52 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++++++

I have Little staff pupp who is 4 months old. His hair is thining a little around the eyes,
ears and fore quarters. Been feeding him raw for about 6 weeks - chicken drumsticks,
wings, carcasses, necks, turkey necks, lamb liver and hearts. Could I be missing some
minerals within the raw diet to help with his immune system?

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10a. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:32 am ((PST))

I also feed duck. All of my Cavaliers LOVE it! Can't remember the price per pound that I pay but it's an indulgance as the cost is much higher than the meals I usually feed. And, Heather, like you, mine have no problems with the duck skin.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Heather <newbeginnings06@gmail.com> wrote:
I get duck from Walmart for $1.39/lb I think it is. My dog has no
problems with skin either. He's tummy is so tough he eats whole meals
of organ once a week and no diarrhea but give him grains and he's a
sick dog. Both Amos and my kitty, Waverli LOVE duck. I have to make
sure I keep it on hand from now on.

Heather

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11. Quick stool question
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:08 am ((PST))

Been feeding my 13 week old Siberian whole chickens for about 2 weeks
now. She seems like she is having trouble pooping. Sometimes it
comes out solid sometimes loose. She seems like she is taking a long
time to poop though, she sits in her stance for about 3-5 minutes. I
know for shore I'm not giving her too much bone so I don't see why she
would be constipated. Is it normal for her to take longer pooing when
eating raw? thanks!

Joe

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