[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12386

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: katkellm
1b. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: pwdohio2000
1d. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: carnesbill
1e. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: costrowski75
1f. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: Denise Strother
2b. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: sisterloui

3.1. Re: New to this list
From: carnesbill
3.2. Re: New to this list
From: jennifer_hell
3.3. Re: New to this list
From: Chia

4a. grinder
From: Michelle R

5.1. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: costrowski75
5.2. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill
5.3. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: Michelle Morgan

6a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: Yasuko herron
8b. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Michelle Morgan

11a. Re: I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
From: Michelle Morgan

12. raw feeding diabetes insipidus 4 month old puppy
From: doris liberato

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:

> It's not your easy answer, but I'd still be looking further than "no
more
> bone chewing" for a solution.

Hi Barb,
I know how concerned you are about Kiva, and that it is very
disheartening when you try to go the extra mile and get a raw fed
minimally vaxed dog so they can be extra healthy, and that you love
her tons is coming through loud and clear, but i think that you are
grasping at an answer in a panicked attempt to fix the problem. I wish
i were knowledgeable enough to offer the solution, but unfortunately i
only know enough to say that not allowing her to chew bones again is
not the correct answer. Honestly and truthfully, KathyM

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@...>
wrote:
>
> This girl has had everything done right to her.

> This girl has had no chemicals put in her whatsoever.

Barb,
Stop and think a minute. This girl has NOT had evearything done
right to her. If she had, she wouldn't have this problem today.
You have only had her 5 weeks. The problem she is having takes much
longer than 5 weeks to materialize. She has been chewing something
inappropriate for a long time. She had this problem when you got
her. Turkey necks did not cause this problem. It was either
chewing on a rec bone or a toy or doorjam or chair leg or something
like that. Vaccines didn't cause this nor did lack of vaccines.
This is not a chemical problem. Improper chewing of improper
objects over a long period of time caused it. There are many
thousands of dogs that chew turkey necks, chicken bones, other
turkey bones, pork bones, lamb bones, etc every day and they don't
have this problem.

Grinding her food will not help her. It will hurt her over time.
She needs to eat bones. It is necessary for good dental health.
You are not going to wipe out her problems by grinding.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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1c. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "pwdohio2000" pwdohio2000@yahoo.com pwdohio2000
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:15 pm ((PST))

I am pretty sure she has not been chewing on anything inappropriate
unless it has been very hard bones such as marrow bones, and rib
bones (but I don't think rib bones are all that hard!).

I was told by the breeder that she never needed to crate her as she
was the only one in her home that never got into trouble. I have not
crated her since I got her and when we go away and come back she has
never gotten into anything, and no inappropriate chewing.

I have had one dog (large breed) fracture a tooth on marrows bones,
and another large breed wear her canines down, but this is a first
for me.

I am at a loss as to what has caused this problem, and I just don't
want it to continue. Would also like to get the breath smelling
good!

And really, the chicken backs I have been feeding her, don't really
seem all that hard. She has also gotten chicken legs and made pretty
quick work of them prior to the tooth extraction.

There has to be a reason for this, just wish I could figure it out.

Barb

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@>
> wrote:
> >
> > This girl has had everything done right to her.
>
> > This girl has had no chemicals put in her whatsoever.
>
> Barb,
> Stop and think a minute. This girl has NOT had evearything done
> right to her. If she had, she wouldn't have this problem today.
> You have only had her 5 weeks. The problem she is having takes
much
> longer than 5 weeks to materialize. She has been chewing something
> inappropriate for a long time. She had this problem when you got
> her. Turkey necks did not cause this problem. It was either
> chewing on a rec bone or a toy or doorjam or chair leg or something
> like that. Vaccines didn't cause this nor did lack of vaccines.
> This is not a chemical problem. Improper chewing of improper
> objects over a long period of time caused it. There are many
> thousands of dogs that chew turkey necks, chicken bones, other
> turkey bones, pork bones, lamb bones, etc every day and they don't
> have this problem.
>
> Grinding her food will not help her. It will hurt her over time.
> She needs to eat bones. It is necessary for good dental health.
> You are not going to wipe out her problems by grinding.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (17)
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1d. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@...>
wrote:
>
> I am pretty sure she has not been chewing on
> anything inappropriate
> unless it has been very hard bones such as marrow bones, and rib
> bones (but I don't think rib bones are all that hard!).

Beef ribs can be pretty hard for a small dog. When I said "rec
bones", I meant marrow bones. Also notice that you were writing
your last post as i was writing my last post.

> I was told by the breeder that she never needed to crate her
> as she
> was the only one in her home that never got into trouble.

I still think her problem began at the breeder's place many months
ago.

> I am at a loss as to what has caused this problem, and I
> just don't want it to continue.

Except for what I suggested, I am also at a loss but I am sure it
was not a turkey neck. They just aren't that hard or difficult to
chew.

> Would also like to get the breath smelling good!

Usually bad breath means bacteria ... either in the mouth, throat or
stomach ... most likely in the mouth. There are a few diseases that
can cause bad breath. I think kidney or liver disease will cause it.

> And really, the chicken backs I have been feeding her,
> don't really seem all that hard.

No chicken bones are hard and turkey bones are only a little harder.

> There has to be a reason for this, just wish I could figure it out.

Often when I have a problem I can't figure out, I use the process of
elimination ... can't be this, can't be this, can't be this, has to
be that.

Frankly I just don't see a problem like this cropping up in 5
weeks. It's a long shot but maybe whatever is causing the bad
breath is causing the tooth problem instead of the other way around.

Good luck on finding out what is causing all the problems.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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1e. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:16 pm ((PST))

"pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@...> wrote:
>> If there are any nice people on this list that grind Tom turkey
necks
> with ease, please respond to me privately at
>
> pwdohio2000@...
>
> Thanks for being so nice folks. Shame on you. If I was a newbie,
> you might have chased me off from feeding raw entirely! Guess there
> is no netique on this list!
*****
Sandee is one of the nicest people on this list. She is wise and
funny and experienced. I suggest you pay heed to her concerns and
look at the larger issue that is going on with your dog. It's
unlikely whole--appropriate--bones are the cause of her dental
problems, but it's an easy solution for veterinarians who cannot see
beyond their own biases and fears.

Please watch where you sling those accusations. If there is anyone
who needs a refresher course in list manners, perhaps it is you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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1f. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:27 pm ((PST))

"pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@...> wrote:
> I know that, and I was asking
> specifically what electric grinder have people used with success
for
> Tom necks. Rather than anyone answering directly to that question
I
> feel like I was slapped in the face by being told an elementary
> statement of truth that I already know.
>
> I know this is a high volume list and I was keeping the question
short
> and sweet and to the point, I didn't feel I needed to explain why I
> wanted a commercial grinder.
>
*****
This rawfeeding list does not support or endorse grinders, grinding,
or ground food. You say you know this list, so you should also know
that anytime someone asks about grinding, concerned list members will-
-with considerable kindness--attempt to resolve the issue that
suggests grinding as a solution.

Since this is in fact off topic for this list, I recommend you repost
your question to RawChat, where OT material can be discussed.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (17)
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2a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

The only cons I have seen to raw feeding are that you suddenly realize
that you have less room for human food in your freezer/refrigerator and
the overwhelming amount of energy your dog seems to have. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> Closer to 10,000 members...but no, have not heard of any reliable
reports either here or elsewhere. .

> From: "bettathang" <bettathang@...>
> After doing some intensive reading about the pros and "cons" of
> feeding raw,....

Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bettathang" <bettathang@...>
wrote:
>
> I keep find people advising not to feed raw because of
> stomach/intestine/whatever tears, inappropriate
> nutrition, bacterial infections, and on and on.

Have you not noticed that every one of the detractors have never fed
raw in their lives? You will often hear stories of "My wife's
sister's best friend's husband's co-worker's cousin's dog" had a
problem with a bone of some sort. :) :) :)

> I'm just wondering, has anyone ACTUALLY
> had this happen to their dogs?

5 years without a problem with multiple dogs and cats.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:08 pm ((PST))

"bettathang" <bettathang@...> wrote:
> I'm just wondering, has anyone ACTUALLY
> had this happen to their dogs?
*****
Six+ dogs, two cats, seven+ years: no.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:17 pm ((PST))

Hi There,

I started feeding my Labrador a raw meat & bone diet after he
developed "arthritis" at the age of 5. I didnt think "raw" at the
time, I was actually looking at reducing the preservatives and
colourings in his diet but that of course led to this diet.

The family dogs were always given the weekly meaty bone to control
tartar building up on their teeth.

My labs symptoms of joint pain disappeared after a few weeks and so I
researched more into the raw diet.He has thrived on this diet, a
super glossy coat (very good for a golden) slim and full of energy.

The only negatives for me are:

Availability of food. I live in an inner city area, Sheffield in
yorkshire, but by making friends with local butchers I can buy enough
meat and bones for him. This does mean a bit or forward planning and
effort on my part (but well worth it). It also means a good variety
of foods as you take what you can get !

Storage of food: I have bought a small second freezer as i found the
dogs food rapidly filled my own.

Vets comments : my old vet (recently retired) was all for it, we
have a saying here " fit as a butchers dog" My new vet still has to
be convinced but does agree on the bone feeding for keeping teeth in
good condition as long as the bones arent cooked. I have only heard
of problems when the bones have been cooked and have become splintery.

Best wishes
Jane

Messages in this topic (14)
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3.1. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
> #### there is tremendous information @ mercola's site.
> Also, the Weston Price Foundation.

It appears that mercola's site is in the business of selling
supplements. Always be wary of information given by someone who
stands to make money off the decision you make based on what they
say.

The Weston Price Foundation is a bunch of health food fanatics who
seem to put A LOT of reliance on diet supplementation so their
information would hardly be unbiased. I guess I need to sit down
and google the term and take some time to learn more.

> It isn't rocket science to observe that processed crap and
> mass production of meats and dairy is contributing to the
> downfall of proper health.

Processed food, possibly. Mass produced meats, I still have doubts
that there is any harm in them and I know they are a necessary part
of modern life.

> When children are being diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes in
> alarming rates unseen in the past, we need to look at
> poor nutrition.

I think diets that are almost exclusively cheesburgers, pizza and
sweets contribute greatly. Mass produced meats? I don't think so.

> Fresh, natural raw foods are BEST for
> us, and for the pets in our charge.

For pets, I'm convinced. For humans, not yet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (34)
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3.2. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>

> Grains are plant material. If the prey animal was somewhat healthy
> when he died, I think we can assume he had all the nutrients he needed.
>
Here's a new website, in case you don't know that one yet, with some
great info: http://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grassfedbeef/.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (34)
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3.3. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:36 am ((PST))

> Fresh, natural raw foods are BEST for
> us, and for the pets in our charge.

For pets, I'm convinced. For humans, not yet.

### yes, probably best humans eat grains and sugars like commercially
raised dogs.... maybe an odd chicken back too... ;-))

Sheesh...

Chia & Ricco

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4a. grinder
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

I have a hand turn grinder..so no motor to get taxed no matter what Im grinding. I have done tom necks, quartered chickens, etc ...its pretty happy no matter what I "feed" it. Dunno the name tho and its at work..so I will look tomorrow and let you know.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5.1. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:14 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Try the link again. It worked for me even off your post.
*****
Bill, I didn't mean the link to Gerry's message. I meant the link
within Gerry's message: The link to Albertabuffalo.

http://www.albertabuffalo.com/nutrition/grain_and_grass.shtml

This appears to go only to a domain search.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (28)
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5.2. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:31 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Bill, I didn't mean the link to Gerry's message. I meant the link
> within Gerry's message: The link to Albertabuffalo.

Chris,
Yeah, someone else pointed that out to me. Nevermind. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (28)
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5.3. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Michelle Morgan" enzo@whereismichelle.com enzoinub
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
> Yes, OT, but it would also be cool if someone fed some HUMANS free
range vs. feed-lot meats and watched what happened with them...that
is if they were also vaccine free and chlorine/flouride
free...antibiotic free...environmental toxin free....sigh....

Well, there are entire populations of humans that do eat free range
food. Mongolia has virtualy no intensively raised herds, and few
herders bother with vaccines or chemicals. You rarely see a fat
Mongolian outside the capital city, even though people eat a lot of
meat and animal fat. I think the growth hormones thet feed commercial
meats do something odd to whatever eats it. All my dogs have eaten
free range meat since I got them or since they were born. When we
took one dog to Croatia, and he had to eat commercially raised meat,
first he would refuse a lot of things, because of smell or texture I
don't know. After a few months when he began eating normally again,
he gained a fair bit of weight compared to his usual "lean mean"
build and for the first time in his life he had fat over his ribs.
We've been back in Mongolia for a year and a half, and he's back to
lean and mean, never mind that he eats bigger portions here.
Hormones? maybe. I can't be sure because winters there were warmer.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (28)
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6a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kenh83" <kenh83@...> wrote:
>
> I totally understand the benefits of feeding RAW, i'm just unsure
> if I could afford it or not. :(

Ken,
You may be disappointed in cost in the beginning. It takes a few
months to learn how to buy raw food for your dog. I get a lot of
free food for my dogs and I get a lot very cheap by buying in bulk.
It will take some research to learn where to buy in bulk and what
you can get cheaply. After you learn how to buy it will be at least
as cheep as the cheap kibble you are feeding now, probably cheaper.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:19 pm ((PST))

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Giselle
>
> Thanks maybe I will wait until summer so they can enjoy it
outside!! :-)
>
> Sherrel
>
>
>
> Hi, Sherrel!
> It is one of the stinkiest things you can feed your dogs,
*****
Pish tosh.
Green tripe is smelly but the smell does not linger. Green tripe is
not essential but if you can get it before summer, you should surely
feed it before summer. There are worse smells entirely.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:31 pm ((PST))

> I've honed in on a few very good foods that my dog gets on a daily basis -- game hens
or quail, green tripe, and blood (when I can get it).

Hi,Nora.is that it? I mean,dog gets quail or Cornish hen(baby chicken) or tripe or blood daily and sometimes,venison or beef and no more kinds of red meat????

why all those are the only good food to give??Why not other kinds? Whatare the guideline you use to decide waht are good source and what aren't??

Look at this for Cornish hen

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20F3.html

this for Quail

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Cq.html

Look at omega 3:omega6 especially on game hen. if you feed this all the time without not much variety,and heavy on poultry feeding in diet,then, the ratio between the two would be 1:16 roughly(16 being omega6). not much omega3 in the diet so,it is good idea to supplement with fish oil.Especially if you are not feeding fish in diet.andI recognised you don't give Egg???

>organ meats a couple times a month.

Is that it?? If you were not feeding Turkey liver which I found highest vitamin A among livers I have seen, you may may not be lack of Vitamin A in dog diet. If you look at Game hen,half the bird deliver only 181IU and if there were no liver in meal,then,the dog gets only 181IU right??Too little..

Lets say,you feed,Game hen, Tripe one day.Say,you feeding my dog 34lb.

Roughly 1oz organ 9oz bone and meat.

look at this

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00021Customqq0Recipe-0EW10F3-00P20uB.html

see,even added tripe,you are feeding too much Omega6. and too little Vitamin A.
too little Vitamin E...

if you feed Beef and game hen andchicken liver to my dog...one day will be like this

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00021Customqq0Recipe-08410F3-01c20qH-01c10Ak.html

Vitamin A-wise,it is good.If you feed poultry with red meat,I think omega problem is fine but if red meat was not present most of the time,then,I think better to supplement with fish oil.

dog needs 100IU to200IU vitamin A daily per kg body weight and mine needs about 1600-3200IU daily.

if my dog gets your feeding one week for example,mine would get too little vitamin A. she gets roughly 3day worth Vitamin A only.Even if I count with minimum IU.

It is different story if you fed Turkey liver which is high in Vitamin A but since I did not see Turkey in menu so,I am guessing you are not feeding Turkey liver.

> Supplements are not utilizable by the body

It depends what you are giving. Flax seed oil ,which I sometimes see in posts are plant based and dog cannot change its form to be able to uterize in body. and if someone was giving Cod LIver oil,then,maybe too much Vitamin A in diet.

It is not good to give supplement with the thought as Sandee says"Just in case",but also,bad idea if you know that if your dog diet did not deliver enough something andyou did not supplement it like fish oil in your case since I did not see fish,I did not see Egg,and looks like quite heavy diet in poultry..and very limited;limited nutrient from food.And it sounded likered meat is fed only occasionary..and mostly poultry.

If you feed mostly red meat andsome fish andsome poultry,you may may not be giving good amount of Omega3 and good amount of Vitamin A though.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (15)
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8b. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:48 pm ((PST))

"Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:
> The fact remains, the sickest raw-fed dogs I know are the ones that
> are heavily supplemented.
*****
So are they sick because they are supplemented or supplemented
because they are sick?

Supplements do not fill in nutritional
> gaps, despite their ill-gotten reputation to the contrary, and there
> is no dog that needs supplements.
*****
I think you are preaching to the choir here. I do not defend
supplements for general nutritional support--I have never been a fan
of belt and suspenders supplementing; I support them when they are
needed for specific health issues. I am confident that menu
revisions and tweaks are able to address all nutritional issues.

> Chris wrote: "A person can't know what food works and what doesn't
> until a comparison is made."
>
> This is not correct. There is enough known about the true needs of
> dogs that it is not necessary for us to experiment on our dogs.
There
> are lots of different foods that are suitable for feeding to dogs
but
> among these some are better than others and that information does
not
> vary significantly from one dog to another.
*****
Nonsense. Within the realm of raw feeding there are a jillion ways
to interpret "meat" and "bone" and "organs". For every dog that is
fed raw, there is the most effective way to deliver that food to that
dog. I fear you have not read much of this list if you believe there
is no need to "experiment". Tweaking the diet is in fact all about
experimenting.

You say you determined over time that such and such and so and so
were the best foods for your dogs. What? Did you just sit there and
think it through? Or did you find over time--by "experimenting"--
that your current menu works best? I doubt you just guessed. I am
quite astonished, frankly, that you feel there is no need to fine
tune each dog's raw diet. If indeed you are so naive (or arrogant)
to believe that one size its all, I would not want you feeding my
dogs.

There are some standard
> criteria by which we can judge foods to determine whether they're
> suitable, and I was lacking that information when I first started
> feeding raw.
*****
Bosh. Use whatever justification you choose, but what you did was
experiment. That's not a bad thing. It's good to find what works
best for one's dog. You "fed around" til you identified what you
believe is best for your dog. Are you suggesting now that no one
else has the right or the obligation to do the same for their dogs?
Are you suggesting somehow that the menu you have settled on (one
that I am not comfortable with) is the one all subsequent newcomers
should feed?

I definitely don't
> recommend the "try it and see" approach to raw feeding.
*****
This is profoundly selfish. You are feeding a limited, low fat diet
to animals for which the "food pyramid" is protein and fat. I think
your choices are inappropriate. I would urge others without question
to explore other avenues than those you follow. If broadening one's
horizon beyond a certain recommendation is a "try and see" approach,
I say "bring it on."
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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9a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:03 pm ((PST))

"Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> A house sitter will be feeding and caring for our group over the
> holiday. I'm figuring chicken is about the safest meal?
*****
Yes, stick with what you have seen to be successful. Also consider
feeding the dogs less than they're accustomed to.

> > I've heard on this list about pumpkin but not sure how to
deliver.
*****
Don't. Pumpkin is artifice, the same artifice as beef pulp and
tomato pomace and bran and various other plant fibers used by the
dogfood industry. Pumpkin stops up the dog's natural response to
digestive upset. For a human to decide because of comfort level that
the irritant should stay inside the dog is hubris. If "it" needs to
come out, let it come out. And then learn from the experience,
adjust the diet, adjust the amount, adjust the timing--adjust what
needs to be adjusted.

The healthiest way to deal with loose stools is to back off, don't
feed a meal or two. If you need to soothe the intestines you can use
Slippery Elm powder.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Michelle Morgan" enzo@whereismichelle.com enzoinub
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:35 am ((PST))

Ahem. Pot, kettle, black! I still have sticky on my old laptop, and
I'm pretty sure the coffee on the main keyboard board was from you,
and the orange Fanta all over the screen is thanks to Chris O.

But yeah, in general I agree that raw feeding does make dog
caretakers more aggressive. People fighting over RMBs in the
supermarket, arguing with spouses about whether or not its cool to
keep green tripe in the family fridge, and contemplating teaching
their dogs to catch their own meals every time a pesky door to door
marketer comes around. Or girl scout. In my neighborhood, certain
sects of strident, gate-banging religous missionaries are considered
whole prey, but they tend to be white meat and I'm not much of a fan -
seems like they would be very low in Omega 3s.

Michelle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:

> Ok, that's IT. I'm going to have to insist on the courtesy of an
FDA
> (Food and Drink Alert) on some of these posts! <grin>
> Now get over here and clean my keyboard....ooops, never mind,
Frosty did it.

Messages in this topic (13)
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11a. Re: I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
Posted by: "Michelle Morgan" enzo@whereismichelle.com enzoinub
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:18 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
> It is SEVERELY freezer burned, and I don't know if that effects the
> nutritional value, or edibility (is that a word? LOL) for the
dogs/cats.

Nyah, freezer burn affects the texture and the water content, but not
the 'edibility' or the even much of the nutritional value. Some
volatile vitamins may have wafted off the surface, but still a great
deal! I'd re-post with the message FREE ORGANIC RAW OREGON in the
header and see what happens :-)

Michelle

Messages in this topic (4)
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12. raw feeding diabetes insipidus 4 month old puppy
Posted by: "doris liberato" halelehua001@yahoo.com halelehua001
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

aloha all, i am 1 month into raw feeding 1 of my basenji ladies and 1
day raw feeding the 2 puppies from her last litter that i kept. just
joined the diabetes_insipidus_dog Group and have been researching
their archives. however, since the membership of this Group
(rawfeeding) is so much larger i would like to know if anyone out
there has any advice for me on this subject. my vet hasn't determined
whether he has ndi or cdi - she left me comatose after telling me that
she had to test him on some medicated drops that cost $300.00 a
bottle, but i would have to purchase the medication for her to test
him. i couldn't believe my ears when she told me this (was so blown
away i can't even remember the name of medication!) his mama is doing
so beautifully on the rawfeeding i thought maybe between that and of
course monitoring his water intake we could hold off on meds for
awhile and see how he does. i hope this is not too far off the
subject for this group as i really need input from anyone who has this
problem. mahalo nui, dody

Messages in this topic (1)
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