[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12380

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
1c. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: m td
1d. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee
1e. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: Denise Strother
1f. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: cypressbunny
1g. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill
1h. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill
1i. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
From: jennifer_hell

2.1. green tripe
From: Ivette Casiano
2.2. green tripe
From: cypressbunny
2.3. Re: green tripe
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: wish me luck
From: Denise Strother
3b. Re: wish me luck
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: wish me luck
From: donna

4a. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: Nora Lenz
4b. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: marge
5b. Re: meaty meat meals
From: Jamie Dolan

6a. Re: certain meats cause panting
From: linoleum5017

7a. Re: I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
From: Morledzep@aol.com
7b. Re: I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. Re: Ever actually seen a case of Feline Ca deficiency from a bone de
From: linoleum5017

9a. Re: chicken liver
From: linoleum5017

Messages
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1a. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:29 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> I suspect very little difference could be detected.
*****
Somewhere in the dim past, it was Gerry I think who stumbled upon an
article the compared grassfed bison (I think? Perhaps it was a broader
study) to feedlot bison and the only significant difference was the
amount of omega 3 fatty acids/the ratio of Omea 6 to Omega 3. The vits
and mins were marginally different.

That was at least two computer crashes ago and a number of list host
changes so all that appears to remain is my memory of the text, and we
all know how stellar my memory is. So from a "who sez?" perspective
this ain't much. But I do recall discussions about same.

I believe it's pretty hard to deny the reality of the lower levels of
O3 in factory foods; what to make of it though is clearly a topic that
never quits.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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1b. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:42 pm ((PST))

Re: <<<I suspect very little difference could be detected. It would be cool
if someone fed two identical dogs free range vs. regular grocery store
meat. Don't think it's gonna happen.>>>

Yes, OT, but it would also be cool if someone fed some HUMANS free range vs.
feed-lot meats and watched what happened with them...that is if they were
also vaccine free and chlorine/flouride free...antibiotic free...environmental
toxin free....sigh....

It's a long road back to whole food.

Carol

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Messages in this topic (17)
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1c. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "m td" mtd885@yahoo.com mtd885
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:21 pm ((PST))

It's a long road back to whole food.
--- Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

Yup but it all begins with the first step...mtd

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Messages in this topic (17)
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1d. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:21 pm ((PST))

Hey Chris,

Here's the message you are referring to.......

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/67499

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "costrowski75" <Chriso75@AOL.COM>

Somewhere in the dim past, it was Gerry I think who stumbled upon an
article the compared grassfed bison (I think? Perhaps it was a broader
study) to feedlot bison and the only significant difference was the
amount of omega 3 fatty acids/the ratio of Omea 6 to Omega 3. The vits
and mins were marginally different.

Messages in this topic (17)
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1e. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:21 pm ((PST))

You're so right! A long and winding road that leads us back to whole
foods. Heeey.... isn't that a Beatles song? Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
> It's a long road back to whole food.
> Carol

Messages in this topic (17)
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1f. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "robtkatz" <robtkatz@...> wrote:
>
> You read more than I wrote. I just asked if there would be a
> difference, possibly significant, if one uses range free grass fed
> meats. The gist of my article was a question, not a statement.

*** I think there is a difference, but even if the difference is slight
and/or difficult to measure, there is a tremendous difference in the
health and happiness of animals raised in confinement systems vs. free
range/grass fed. Does that mean if you cannot afford humanely reared
organic meats you should just forget about raw? Of course not. But crap-
fed subsidized confinement-reared big business meat production is going
to come back and bite our behinds sooner or later. I prefer later.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (17)
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1g. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:
>
> But crap-
> fed subsidized confinement-reared big business meat production
> is going
> to come back and bite our behinds sooner or later. I prefer later.

World demand for food makes these big business meat production
companies necessary. They are raising millions and millions of
cattle and trillions of chickens and guess what? They are every one
getting eatten. Without them many many people would starve to
death. Small farmers just can't feed today's world. Sooo ... lack
of big business meat production is what will bite our behinds.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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1h. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Yes, OT, but it would also be cool if someone fed some HUMANS
> free range vs.
> feed-lot meats and watched what happened with them...that is
> if they were
> also vaccine free and chlorine/flouride free...
>antibiotic free...environmental
> toxin free....sigh....

You can see that anytime you want to and it's not all that
difficult. Just take a tour of Africa or India.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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1i. Re: Free Range Raw Feeding
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
..
>
> You can see that anytime you want to and it's not all that
> difficult. Just take a tour of Africa or India.
>
I've been there, and at least in India I've seen no "environmental
toxin free".
On the other point- people eat far too much meat and ingest far too
much Omega-6. There is no known benefit in this. And on top of that a
huge part goes to waste.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (17)
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2.1. green tripe
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:37 pm ((PST))

What is belly tripe? I saw it frozen in a Caribean wholesale meat market and it wasn't the bleached white stuff. Is that like green tripe or is green tripe really green?

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (93)
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2.2. green tripe
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:44 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> What is belly tripe? I saw it frozen in a Caribean wholesale meat
market and it wasn't the bleached white stuff. Is that like green tripe
or is green tripe really green?

*** Green tripe is usually brownish/tan. Semi greenish if the animal
was eating fresh grass. You'd have to ask them about whether or not it
was bleached or boiled. Usually belly tripe is the stomach from a
ruminant, and in general it isn't legal to sell it without bleaching
first. It is possible that an exception was made for a traditional
ethnic market, or that they were selling a product without complying
with regulations.

Carrie

Messages in this topic (93)
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2.3. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:17 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/15/2007 5:37:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ivettecasiano@yahoo.com writes:

What is belly tripe? I saw it frozen in a Caribean wholesale meat market and
it wasn't the bleached white stuff. Is that like green tripe or is green tripe
really green?

Ivette,

if you're in the USA and the store sells food for human consumption it is NOT
green tripe. it's that simple.

it may be a different type of tripe than what you find in mainstream grocery
stores, but it is still cleaned beyond recognition and probably has no
nutritional value as wolf chow.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (93)
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3a. Re: wish me luck
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:42 pm ((PST))

Hi donna,
You might do better to start with bone in breasts or thighs, the wings
are more bone - less meat and harder for a pup to start with. Denise
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, donna <heartathome@...> wrote:
I got my 7 week old neo mastiff today.. of course the breeder
recommended IAMS...LOL i just smiled. SO i bought chicken wings and
pigs feet today and chicken livers and put them all in the freezer
except for some wings for the next few days... We shall see tomorrow
how she does. :)
--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: wish me luck
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:50 pm ((PST))

donna <heartathome@...> wrote:>
> I got my 7 week old neo mastiff today.. of course the breeder
> recommended IAMS...LOL
> i just smiled.
> SO i bought chicken wings and pigs feet today and chicken livers
and
> put them all in the freezer except for some wings for the next few
> days...
*****
Chicken wings by their poor poor pitiful lonesome are both too small
and too bony for your pup. They were too small and too bony for my
border collie at seven weeks! I recommend you feed them with extra
meat or rotate them with boneless meals and then when they're gone,
don't reorder.

And pig's feet are not meaty enough though they do offer plenty of
fat. I think you should save them for later. Of course, unless you
bought whole, unsliced pig's feet, later will be too late because
they will be too small for the pup.

Chicken livers right now are a bit ambitious, I'm afraid. They're
NEVER needed in large volume, and for a newbie baby dog they are best
fed later or in teensy weensy bits. Divvy the livers into baggies
you can freeze and feed through gradually.

Then go buy yourself some whole chickens that you can whack apart as
needed; at least get some rib-in chicken breasts that you should be
able to feed right now. And get some boneless meat: beef heart is
good, so is pork.

I fear your enthusiasm will back fire both figurately and literally.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: wish me luck
Posted by: "donna" heartathome@att.net jubileeberry
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:22 pm ((PST))

*** Mod Note: please trim and sign your posts!!! ***

hey..thanks..will do :) she was hungry when she got here so i gave
her some fish... :)

>Hi donna,
>You might do better to start with bone in breasts or thighs, the wings
>are more bone - less meat and harder for a pup to start with. Denise
>--- In
><mailto:rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com,
>donna <heartathome@...> wrote:
>I got my 7 week old neo mastiff today.. of course the breeder
>recommended IAMS...LOL i just smiled. SO i bought chicken wings and
>pigs feet today and chicken livers and put them all in the freezer
>except for some wings for the next few days... We shall see tomorrow
>how she does. :)
>--
>Namaste,
>donna
>)O(
>Uppity Women Unite
>
>

--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "Nora Lenz" nmlenz@speakeasy.net rawnora
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:22 pm ((PST))

I agree with Bill about supplementing, in fact I would go so far as to
say that it holds back many a dog from experiencing the highest levels
of health. I have never supplemented my dog's diet and in fact do not
even follow the advice that is often offered in place of
supplementing -- to feed a 'wide variety' of foods. I've honed in on
a few very good foods that my dog gets on a daily basis -- game hens
or quail, green tripe, and blood (when I can get it). In addition to
that, he gets a little steak or venison scrap now and then and organ
meats a couple times a month. I feed him a little fruit if he seems
interested when I'm eating it.

He still keeps up with me on 2 hour hikes and is as healthy as he can
be, and he's almost 16 years old. All of the sick raw fed dogs I've
ever known were given supplements. Supplements are not utilizable by
the body and only overburden the eliminative system. Dogs are
digestively versatile and resilient and can handle some garbage but
all the good that a raw diet can do can easily be undone by the
administering of herbs, remedies, oils, supplements and other
indigestible and unnecessary substances. Jmho. :)

Thank you for the raw feeding 101 article, Bill, well done.
Best wishes,
Nora

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:40 pm ((PST))

I have never known this list to recommend " herbs, remedies, oils,
supplements and other indigestible and unnecessary substances".

On the other hand, a species appropriate diet is recommended....mostly red
meat, a little edible bone and appropriate organs. I don't see how a diet
based on game hens, quail, tripe and blood fulfill that requirement? There
is no doubt what carnivores eat...and that's not it!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@speakeasy.net>

I agree with Bill about supplementing, in fact I would go so far as to
say that it holds back many a dog from experiencing the highest levels
of health. I have never supplemented my dog's diet and in fact do not
even follow the advice that is often offered in place of
supplementing -- to feed a 'wide variety' of foods. I've honed in on
a few very good foods that my dog gets on a daily basis -- game hens
or quail, green tripe, and blood (when I can get it). In addition to
that, he gets a little steak or venison scrap now and then and organ
meats a couple times a month. I feed him a little fruit if he seems
interested when I'm eating it.

He still keeps up with me on 2 hour hikes and is as healthy as he can
be, and he's almost 16 years old. All of the sick raw fed dogs I've
ever known were given supplements. Supplements are not utilizable by
the body and only overburden the eliminative system. Dogs are
digestively versatile and resilient and can handle some garbage but
all the good that a raw diet can do can easily be undone by the
administering of herbs, remedies, oils, supplements and other
indigestible and unnecessary substances. Jmho. :)

Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:13 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> I have never known this list to recommend " herbs, remedies, oils,
> supplements and other indigestible and unnecessary substances".

I've seen all of the above recommended many times over the years.
I've seen fish body oil, glucosamine, Chondroiten(sp), slippery elm,
yogurt, probiotics, countless homeopathic "remedies", vitamins C, D,
and E and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my
head.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Dolan" <jamiedolan@...>
wrote:
>
> > small enough. When it is small enough it sure doesn't seem like
much
> > food. Are the whole fryers smaller than the individual parts I
have
> > been buying? I definitely need a small kitchen scale until I can
> > eyeball it.
>
> Marge;
>
> How small are your dogs? I will give my 19 pound boy a 1 pound
meal.
> That is a bit on the large size for him, but manageable. However,
if
> your doing 2 meals a day, then you do have to cut that about in
half,
> 8 to 10 ounces.
>
> I have 2 problems with buying pieces of meat instead of whole
animals / birds.
>
> If you buy and feed whole birds, then you know the dogs are more or
> less getting an appoiate amount of meat to bird ratio. Although, a
> whole bird may still have a bit more bone than they do need. What I
> see happen is that people tend to fall into this pattern of buying
> necks, wings, backs, and they end up feeding way too much bone to
> there dogs. So if you can feed these items with enough meaty meat,
> then you are ok from that standpoint.
>
> The other thing I have a problem with is that when you get pieces
that
> are too small, it makes it more likely that they will choke on
stuff.
> It is extremely hard for a dog to choke on pieces of meat and bone
> that are attacked to the rest of a bird.
>
> One option is to give them whole birds or larger pieces of birds,
and
> then just take it away when they eat about the desired amount. I
know
> that can sometimes be an issue with some dogs where it can be
> difficult to take away the meat.
>
> If you use smaller pieces of meat, then just do be careful that they
> do not choke on them.
>
> >
> > I do need to say that even in the three days my dog's breath is
so much
> > better! Pepper has severe allergy to something..always scratching
self
> > bloddy on chin and neck. His coat is dull and unhealthy, eyes
always
> > need goop cleaned out and he has chronic ear infections that need
> > constant managing. I am praying this diet helps with some of
this, he
> > is miserable and has been since we rescued them in 2006.
> >
>
> It may take some time, but a high quality diet will help them and is
> one of the best things you can do for them.
>
> > Thanks to all for the great support. I read the archives
regularly but
> > it is great to have the live support too.
>
> Your welcome.
>
> Let me know the weight of your dogs and I'll try to make some more
> suggestions to help you out.
>
> Good Luck!!!
>
> Jamie
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:13 pm ((PST))

Marge,

Somehow your message got cut off / deleted before you sent it and
there was nothing you wrote included in this reply. Please try to
send your reply again.

Thanks,

Jamie

Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. Re: certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:01 pm ((PST))

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@>
> wrote:
> >
> > My dog has the same reaction, only it is to goat! It's not
> > something
> > that can be fed in small portions, as a leg is a leg, a shoulder a
> > shoulder.
>
> Two words: meat cleaver.

> Brandon Van Every
>*************
Brandon,

I love the reply, thanks! I think I'll ask for a meat cleaver for
Christmas. But not goat.

lol,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:13 pm ((PST))

I'll be there with bells on and a big pickup truck.. just say when and where.

Catherine
(623) 695-2133

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Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:17 pm ((PST))

damn.. i didn't see that you're in OR.. nevermind


i knew it was too good to be true.. lol.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Ever actually seen a case of Feline Ca deficiency from a bone de
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:17 pm ((PST))

Nikol,

There are plenty of folks who order from RodentPro, which offers
bones/prey the size a cat might find on his own outside. Birds may
not offer much bone, but rodents sure do. My cat catches things
outside and eats them, so I don't worry. He also loves chicken wing
bones. I've heard others praise cornish game hens, (which are really
just small chickens,) but they're too expensive for my budget. Try
ordering from RodentPro online!

Lynne

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tiffany.contempopainting"
<tiffcurran@...> wrote:
>> So I tried Rocco on chicken liver today. He wanted no part of it.

****I wrote in with this same reaction from my dog several months
ago! Take heart, because my dog & cat now LOVE liver. How did that
happen? I tried some peoples' suggestions until I found the one that
worked. For me, we seared the liver for a few seconds, and the
texture changed enough to be acceptable to my pets. After a while, I
didn't need to sear it any more. Now it's the first thing they
eat : )

>>he likes chicken hearts so could that replace the liver or is it
different? Not quite sure what muscle is.

******Liver and kidneys are organ meat; heart and gizzards are 'meat,'
but heart is especially rich, so go a little at a time with it until
you get a sense of the bowel reaction.

>>>How much liver for a 27 lb guy. Sorry guys. Ill get it eventually.

**** 5% of the total diet should be organs, according to this list's
recommendations. Doesn't have to be every day, but maybe balance it
out by the end of a week.

HTH,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (12)
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