[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12385

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: pwdohio2000
1b. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: katkellm
1c. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: pwdohio2000
1d. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: bcoll197
1e. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: Laura Atkinson
1f. Re: Tom Turkey necks - long - dog's history
From: pwdohio2000

2a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: Erika
2b. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: bettathang
2c. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: Ctjb4@aol.com
2d. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: amvilppu

3.1. Re: green tripe
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3.2. Re: green tripe
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: lovinalldogs
4b. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: spricketysprock
4c. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: Yasuko herron
4d. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: Heather

5a. Re: Dinky update/Sandee
From: Cathy
5b. Re: Dinky update/Sandee
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
From: Karen Ditton
6b. Re: Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
From: Chia
6c. Re: Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
From: katkellm
6d. Re: Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: Dinky update/Giselle
From: Cathy

8. How much fish oil?
From: blueberry5297

9a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal?
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
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1a. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "pwdohio2000" pwdohio2000@yahoo.com pwdohio2000
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:11 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

This girl has had everything done right to her. She was weaned on
raw. The breeder has her dam and her granddam all raw fed. She has
been feeding raw for 10 years, RMBs. She does not vaccinate other
than Neopar at 12 weeks and 1 year, that is it.

This girl has had no chemicals put in her whatsoever. She has had two
litters of pups, all healthy.

I am willing to pay commercial prices up to $600.

Barb

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm guessing that you're not pinpointing the source of the
problem. I have
> a boy who had a major molar pulled from the top jaw...on one side.
He
> crunches through bones just fine. The bone loss and gum recession
are a
> health issue, not a diet issue. I'd go so far as to hypothesize
that
> removing whole bones from her diet will cause further damage to her
teeth.
>
> While ground food may be handy for the post-surgery healing,
keeping the
> rest of her teeth and gums healthy with whole food is overall
better for
> her. Was she raw fed before you got her? Does she have a history
of
> getting vaccinations? Either of those two issues could result in
the issues
> that are making themselves known now.
>
> And, for the record, I don't know of a mechanical grinder, short of
the
> commercial ones, that will do turkey necks...for grinding bone you
may have
> to stick with the softer chicken and pork bones.
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm guessing that you're not pinpointing the source of the problem.

Hi Barb,
I think that Laura's post is spot on. There is no way that your vet
has properly diagnosed the cause of your girl's problem, and i am
afraid that the "solution" is actually going to intensify the problem.
You need to find out why her gums are unhealthy and not blame the
natural art of the diet which is chewing bones.

I would also like to point out that Sandee had some smiley faces after
her post, and if you read this list much and saw how much she
unselfishly posts here, you probably wouldn't have made such an ugly
remark about her response. The reason you were asking about a grinder
was initially unclear. Sandee knows soo much stuff about homeopathy
that i am positive her response would have been very informative if
you had given her the chance. KathyM

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "pwdohio2000" pwdohio2000@yahoo.com pwdohio2000
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

This girl has healthy gums in her mouth, other than the gums directly
over the upper molar that was removed, and the other molar on the other
side is also starting down the same path, just not as bad. The rest of
her gums are healthy.

Sandee may have a lot of knowledge, but I don't think that my question
to the list about grinders was handled well at all by either of the
first two posters. I feel that I got rudeness being told that the
grinders are in the dog's mouth. I know that, and I was asking
specifically what electric grinder have people used with success for
Tom necks. Rather than anyone answering directly to that question I
feel like I was slapped in the face by being told an elementary
statement of truth that I already know.

I know this is a high volume list and I was keeping the question short
and sweet and to the point, I didn't feel I needed to explain why I
wanted a commercial grinder.

Barb

>
> Hi Barb,
> I think that Laura's post is spot on. There is no way that your vet
> has properly diagnosed the cause of your girl's problem, and i am
> afraid that the "solution" is actually going to intensify the problem.
> You need to find out why her gums are unhealthy and not blame the
> natural art of the diet which is chewing bones.
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "bcoll197" bcoll197@yahoo.com bcoll197
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@...>
wrote:

> Can someone advise on a good grinder that will handle turkey necks
w/o taxing the motor? Thanks!
>
> Barb & Kiva in Southwestern Ohio

~~I have a shih-tzu who is older and has few teeth. No matter how hard
she has tried, she simply cannot handle meat presented in its natural
state. We bought a grinder sold by northerntool.com (part #168620).
We have put chicken quarters and turkey necks through with no
problem. We use the largest grinding plate so the bones are small
enough to get in her mouth, but still large enough that she does some
chewing. Along with this, she gets organs and meat that is cut up
very small.
~~Barb

Messages in this topic (12)
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1e. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:51 pm ((PST))

On a list that you *know* is targeted toward prey model feeding....you have
to wonder that you got those answers? If you've been around a while, you'd
know that a short question like you asked, with no background on the dog at
all is going to get the standard "the best grinder is your dogs' teeth" type
answer. Whether you get warm fuzzies from the answer or not, that's the
answer.

Obviously, if she's got dental problems, she does *not* have healthy gums in
her mouth. Healthy gums do not receed with normal use. Does she have a toy
or something she chews on that could be pushing the gums there? Kinda like
people who brush their teeth too hard end up with their gums receeding?

It's not your easy answer, but I'd still be looking further than "no more
bone chewing" for a solution. And, she's small enough, why not give chicken
wings a try for her bone? They're small, soft and should be pretty easy for
her to get through.

And, it only takes one vaccine for long-term effects to happen...and your
girl has had two.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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1f. Re: Tom Turkey necks - long - dog's history
Posted by: "pwdohio2000" pwdohio2000@yahoo.com pwdohio2000
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

I have not spoken with the vet yet on what he might
have found on extraction. I don't think it was
anything unusual or they would have probably mentioned
it at the time I picked her up. Her blood work was
out of whack, no white cells and they kept saying
something about "anemia", and her platelets were low
in the mid to low 100 range as I recall.

It will be two weeks on Tuesday this week and I am to
take her back for repeat blood work and oral check, at
that time I was planning on speaking with the vet who
did the extraction to see what he might have found
when he got in there - thinking abscess maybe, pus,
infection, or fracture, something/anything. But again,
I would have thought they would have mentioned
anything like that to me. I have been using this vet
for 30 years (as my conventional vet, I also have a
TCM vet practicing on her own and the 2 work together
as they know each other and respect each other). I
also worked for a vet years ago and at one point this
clinic asked me if I wanted to come aboard with them.
So, it is not as if I am the average owner that they
wouldn't bother to tell me this type of stuff.

The breeder is completely holistic and this girl had
never been to a vet prior to her health certificate to
fly here. She did have to get a rabies shot 5 weeks
ago when she flew here (she was clear on the coast
and I am in the midwest), and although that can
certainly have consequences, the bone loss and gum
recession doesn't happen that quickly. This girl has
never had heartworm meds (she is clear as I had her
tested prior to surgery for that), and she has never
been on any flea preps. Just completely holistically
raised other than the Neopar at 12 weeks and 1 yr.

She had no growths that I could detect in her mouth, and the
examining doctor that first looked at her never
mentioned seeing any -- and I know she would have, had
she seen something. She did take a tool and she
measured quite a pocket in her gum where that one tooth was,
the rest of her gums and teeth are healthy, other than the same
one on the opposite side which appears it might be starting
down the same route. We are watching it for now. The
tooth that was extracted was NOT loose, nor are any of
her teeth.

She carries good weight. She was about 1-pound underweight
when she came here as she had just weaned a litter of pups.
She has since gained that extra pound.

I took her to a closer vet (my normal vet is 30
minutes one way) and she ran labs again for me and we
sent them out to Idexx (the previous labs were done
in-house) and everything came back fine this time,
just as Jean Dodds, DVM said she would expect. I had
asked Jean's opinion of the labs and she felt it was
the tooth causing the labs to be off. This vet also
examined her and felt that the rest of her gums were
fine and was puzzled by the bad breath in a raw fed dog.

Her wound is healing well and you cannot see a hole at
all where the tooth was. The sutures are still in
place. Another reason that I believe we are dealing
with a healthy dog, healing is being quick.

I plan on having her labs done again in spring to just
double-check them and, hopefully, have a baseline.

I would think that since she comes in season with
regular timing and gets pregnant
w/o any difficulty (she has had 2 litters) that her
thyroid is probably fine.

My concern is why this is happening and I did question
whether it might be dietary, she has only been fed a
meat and bone diet, no veggies. I am incorporating
some small amount of ground veggies in her diet. I am
adding Grizzly salmon oil. She is getting from
me....beef, lamb, venison, chicken, turkey - trying to
give her a well-rounded diet. The breeder tried pork
once and said her Standards got loose stool, the Minis
did fine, but she quit feeding pork as it was too much
trouble to give to one group and not the other. I have
not fed pork yet.

The breeder herself said she has never seen this in
such a young dog.

Her breath is bad, it was horrendous when I got her! I
have been brushing her teeth and using PetzLife Oral
Care gel on her teeth and they look a lot better. She did
have tartar build up, and it is better than it was when I got her.
Why the bad breath with a raw fed dog is beyond me. She is
on a second course of antibiotics thinking it might
have been infection in the root of that tooth.
If the extra week of antibiotics doesn't seem to help,
I am not sure what our next step is at this point.

She appears perfectly healthy, great coat, no skin
problems, no ear infections, no ear goobers. Oddly,
though, she had full anal glands! Again, odd for a raw fed dog.

Now to your questions Laura -

>>Does she have a toy
> or something she chews on that could be pushing the gums there?
Kinda like
> people who brush their teeth too hard end up with their gums
receeding?

**** She is not really a chewer other than her RMB's. She has
stuffed toys she plays with.

>>she's small enough, why not give chicken
> wings a try for her bone? They're small, soft and should be pretty
easy for her to get through.

**** I have avoided chicken wings and chicken necks with her having
heard that the smaller dogs have a higher incidence of choking on the
smaller pieces because they may not chew and rather try to down them
in one piece. She has been getting a lot of backs, turkey necks, and
some chicken legs intact. She didn't do well with the beef ribs,
maybe because they were harder and the gums/tooth was bothering her.

But, it might be that the harder bones were a problem because that is
exactly where she placed her meaty bones to chew them up. But, why
her and not her dam, granddam, or any of the other Mini's in the
household?

This is the first small dog I have had, prior to this girl's arrival,
I had a Portuguese Water Dog and a Standard Poodle, both of which I
lost this spring (2 months apart/old age in my PWD/bladder cancer in
my young SP).

I knew going into the small breed that teeth would be an issue, I
just didn't expect it on a raw diet and especially so early.

Now with the tooth removal, it worries me whether she can indeed chew
up her bones and manage to not choke. There is no tooth to match up
with on that side for chewing. Obviously the RMBs didn't help to
avoid a tooth problem with her...so, my thinking is grinding might be
the way to go to help save the teeth and prevent possible choking
because she can't manage to chew her bones well enough.

Now, you know the whole story - at least as much as I know.

Barb

Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:13 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hello Ken,

I am fairley new to feeding RAW myself about 2 months in now I think. My dogs are Bordeaux Mastiffs. Not as big as yours but I am feeding 7, lol. I have not yet figured out my average costs as I am feeding them larger meals on the average trying to build them up since they were on the skinny side on kibble diets. I am not sure if you will be able to spend less on the FEEDING with your dogs since you are feeding a baged food at such a cheap price (I was spending $35 for 30# bags of food prior and going through a bag every 4.5 days)

You will save money on dentals and other vet visits I can guarantee you that! I had a recent import who's teeth were so bad when I got her that we were going to have to do a deep cleaning and possible extraction of 3 front teeth, not to mention the dragon breath! That alone would have ran me about $600, today she has white puppy teeth and no bad breath. We also saved her other teeth, which is important when the judge askes to see the bite!

One of my males was struggeling in the show ring and I just took him back in yesterday for the first time since feeding raw and people who knew him were asking where I got my new stud from, lol, they were blown away by his transformation. They he went BOB in both shows!

If you can manage to feed this way you will never look back!

Erika

kenh83 <kenh83@yahoo.com> wrote:
About 2 weeks ago or so, I found a website forum dedicated to
Mastiff's and their owners.. someone mentioned he RAW fed and thought
it was great.

I have been doing alot of reading on this list, along with the common
links that come up on this list about raw feeding, raw feeding faqs,
raw feeding myths, etc.. I'm far from an expert in any way, shape or
form.. more like far from rookie! Anyway, onto the real reason i'm here..

I have two Old English Mastiff's, one is going to be 15 months old
soon, the other will be 5 months soon. They both eat the same dog
food, commercial dry food: Diamond 60+ -- I've choosen this mainly
because the "Great Lakes Mastiff Rescue" volunteers at a Pet Expo
locally suggested it to me. I actually call one of those volunteers
when I have questions regarding my mastiffs.

My question is, will RAW feeding be cheaper than commercial food. A
lot of the sites out there and ones that are posted on this list
frequently say that it is, however I do not see how that is possible.
A bag big of Diamond 60+ lasts me about 2-2.5 weeks, and it costs
about $20 with tax. This feeds two dogs. THEY ARE FREELY FED I should
add. They eat when they want. Everyone I talk to on the mastiff site I
goto says they look healthy (structure/build) according to what they eat.

Mainly what I'm looking for here is someone who has fed RAW to a
MASTIFF for a while and what it comes out to be monthly as a cost?

I totally understand the benefits of feeding RAW, i'm just unsure if I
could afford it or not. :(

I hope I am asking the right questions here and I am sorry if I
digress, its a bad habit.

Thanks,

Ken

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "bettathang" bettathang@yahoo.com bettathang
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:14 pm ((PST))

I haven't fed raw to a mastiff, but I have been feeding raw to a
labrador with a VERY high metabolism. He was on Canidae before
switching and had to be fed about 6 cups daily. We are currently
feeding him 3% of his body weight (he is 65 lbs) and it is MUCH
cheaper for us. We can find whole chickens for 80 cents a pound,
whole fish for $1/lb, and livers and kidneys for 83 cents/lb.
Furthermore, we have to feed him a lot less on this diet. Canidae was
about $10/lb. Good luck, its amazing to see the change it starts to
make in your dog!
-Heidi
(Gaston and George)

> My question is, will RAW feeding be cheaper than commercial food. A
> lot of the sites out there and ones that are posted on this list
> frequently say that it is, however I do not see how that is possible.
> A bag big of Diamond 60+ lasts me about 2-2.5 weeks, and it costs
> about $20 with tax. This feeds two dogs. THEY ARE FREELY FED I should
> add. They eat when they want. Everyone I talk to on the mastiff site
I
> goto says they look healthy (structure/build) according to what they
eat.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "Ctjb4@aol.com" Ctjb4@aol.com ctjb4
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

I have mastiffs also. My Mastiffs are raw feed. I can honestly say it is
much cheaper for me to raw feed my mastiffs than it is to feed them kibble. I
have a male who just turned 2 years old, a 3 year old female and a 18 month old
female.

Also, most Mastiff breeders feel they should not be free feed. I agree it is
better not to be free feeding. First let me say the food you are currently
feeding isn't really considered high quality food. I also surprised that the
bag of food is lasting you so long. Must not be big eaters or something.

I also have a litter of mastiff puppies here. Yes, they are currently on
kibble and I am fixing to put my keeper puppies on raw and the remainder will
stay on kibble. As most of the new homes will not feed raw and my experience is
that they have trouble adjusting from raw to kibble (I know others that have
had no problems weaning puppies to raw and then new homes switching them to
kibble). We all have to do what we feel is best for our own dogs. I have 5
puppies each eating approximately 5-6 cups a day. (so that is 25-30 cups of
food a day total). I am going through 2-3 bags (on average from my counting
there is about 80 cups of food per 40 pound bag it does vary some between the
different brands and size of kibble but on average.) a week with just this five
babies. I figured it is on average $80-$120 a week. - 40 pound bag with tax
costs close to $40.

Now for my raw feed Mastiffs who all eat very different amounts. I have
NEVER spent more than $50 a week on their food most weeks it is around $35. A few
weeks or lets say months I feed for free as we have a family full of
hunters. I know I raw feed different amounts of meat, bone, organs than many others
do, but I have learned what works best with my dogs and go with it. I
couldn't ask for healthier happier dogs.

Good luck
Melisa

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

> My question is, will RAW feeding be cheaper than commercial food. A
> lot of the sites out there and ones that are posted on this list
> frequently say that it is, however I do not see how that is possible.
> A bag big of Diamond 60+ lasts me about 2-2.5 weeks, and it costs
> about $20 with tax. This feeds two dogs. THEY ARE FREELY FED I should
> add. They eat when they want. Everyone I talk to on the mastiff site I
> goto says they look healthy (structure/build) according to what they eat.
>
> Mainly what I'm looking for here is someone who has fed RAW to a
> MASTIFF for a while and what it comes out to be monthly as a cost?
>
> I totally understand the benefits of feeding RAW, i'm just unsure if I
> could afford it or not. :(
>
Hi Ken-

You will be feeding roughly two to three percent of your dogs' ideal adult body weight a
day, so that should help you estimate your cost based on what you are paying per pound
for meat. It can also fluctuate depending on their activity level. My I have never bought
kibble for my pup, so I am not sure how it compares (she is a six-month-old Boxer) to
feeding raw cost wise, but I think you can feed raw on a budget you just have to be
creative and a bargain shopper. I would read through some of the archives. A while back,
someone posted a form letter to post on freecycle requesting freezer burned meat or
scraps from hunters. I used the letter and posted it on Craigslist and got a whole freezer
full of meat: buffalo, deer, pork, beef! And this hunter/butcher is continuing to supply me
with his scraps when he slaughters after a hunt. I also never thought I would be reading
the weekly supermarket ads looking for deals on meat, but I do and stock up when there is
a great deal. Although, when I ran into a colleague at the supermarket when I had a cart
overflowing with meat and nothing else it was slightly embarrassing. But my pup was
happy. Feeding raw on a budget can be done, but it may take some time to find the best
places to get your meat. Where are you located? Perhaps other feeders can recommend
some places. Raw feeding is the way to go and as others on this list will also tell you, over
the life span of your dog you will save on vet bills because your dogs will be healthy! We
just came from our pup's check up and she is the picture of health!

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (5)
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3.1. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:15 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/16/2007 5:54:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

So,I saw thesite and it says the spleen color is white and purple so,the
white Jellybean-like thing is actually one part of Spleen,do you think???It is ok
to give??

yassy,

i don't know what white jellybean thing you're talking about. a spleen is
usually long with a thin skin on it and under the skin is some kind of tissue
that feels like jelly and is colored like blood.. and it SMELLS, and it smells
worse the warmer it gets..

Catherine R.

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3.2. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

>it SMELLS, and it smells worse the warmer it gets..

Yea,I see what you mean. The tripe i got was from Hare today in PA,and it is ground tripe with Spleen. The smell made me notious but, the worse smell could have been from spleen rather than tripe,I wonder..

since I did not try to push the white Jelly-bean like,I am not sure if it was hard object or not.
I did not havecourage to try.. I already was overwhelmed visually by tripe...

I just found it when I was making Tripe balls....

Since I wanted to give it as side dish rather than main dish,I made it like little meatball and bagged them,so that I can pull out without I go through freeze-refreeze-freeze-refreeze with some worse smell every time I pick up what I want.THat way,first time to prep is real smelly and painful job,but later,since I don't open up the big piece and slice or scoup or whatever with smelling things,and I do not need to mess with spoon or knife,and rather I just dump the couple of balls onto mat,without smelling,so,I did. Of course,I protected my hands but it working good.

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (96)
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4a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "lovinalldogs" birdgirl@hvc.rr.com lovinalldogs
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:16 pm ((PST))

Hi Heidi

I just noticed that last Friday made it one entire year since I
switched to a raw diet for my dogs. They are so healthy, beautiful
coats, sweet breath, clean teeth and an incredible zest for life. It
was a big jump for me, as my vet - whom I been using for almost 30
years - tried to discourage me. It became clear that vets need our
business, sick dogs, sick cats and people who believe that kibble
crap is what is best.

Try to remember, accidents can and do happen. I'm always around
watching when I feed. One dog almost inhales his food, the other
works at it....seeming to enjoy it far more that way. If you educate
yourself on how dogs/wolves digest their food, it becomes clear that
raw feeding is the very best you can offer. A balanced raw diet
supplies everything necessary.

It IS hard to make the plunge, but you'll be amazed how healthy your
dogs will be.

Hang in there......It really is the only way to go!

Marjory

Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

My dog has been on raw for 10 months with no problems. I was most
worried about bacteria/parasites too but he hasn't had a single problem
with it. He is also 11 years old and I switched him cold turkey. I was
so nervous at first but now I would never think of going back to kibble.

The only problem I can think of was vomiting in the beginning, probably
because his stomach was used to always being full of nasty kibble, and
I also fed him less to lose weight. But it was never anything serious,
sometimes just a little bile or if he ate too much bone he'd throw it
back up. He didn't have any diarrhea at first which really surprised me
because whenever we switched his kibble he'd have cannon butt. I
recently got his blood tested and the vet was very impressed for his
age, she said everything looked "beautiful" and "perfect."

There is really nothing to fear, especially not bacteria, that question
comes up a lot in this group and people always answer that they've
never had a problem. Some people deliberately leave food out for their
dogs to pick at later when it's warm and nasty!! The only thing I would
suggest is to feed the BIGGEST chunks possible to minimize
choking/impactions, especially if you have a gulper. I used to cut up
chicken but now I just feed it whole, or give him a whole duck, or pork
shoulder, etc. Choking is rare but if you feed big chunks there's no
worry.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (10)
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4c. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

>I'm always around watching when I feed.

Me too!! It is good idea to observe and learn the eating habit of own dog too and feel good about ourself to know we are giving best diet we can give for dogs health and enjoy how they eat not just being there for safety.

yassy

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4d. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

The only incidence I've ever had with raw is when my cat eats it too
fast and regurgitates it up because she swallowed instead of chewed.
I've never had any bacteria, choking or problems with bones
perforating the stomach/intestines and I've fed my dog raw for over
a year.

I can sure understand about the vet thing though. My vet teeters on
the harassment line and even lectures my MOTHER about raw feeding
because she thinks she raw feeds her dogs too when she doesn't.
Everytime Amos goes in for vomitting, diarrhea, the whipworm
infestation, it's always pinpointd to the diet. Yea right. Never
mind that he picked up worms from a kibble fed dog at the dog park,
or that his diarrhea/vomitting is from getting into kibble with rice
in it, or his hot spot was from the ingestion of high protein kibble
cat food. Hmm.. the only problems he's ever had seem to be from
kibble (not to mention his horrid allergies that are 100% controlled
by a raw diet). Don't let your vet intimidate you. I just nod and
smile when my vet tells me I'm killing my dog because she'll NEVER
learn anything with such a closed mind. I was even told to put my
dog on SD sensitive stomach when I told the vet of his GRAIN
sensitivities that cause him to vomit and itch. I will be taking
both my dog and cat to a holistic vet an hour away from now on. I
suggest trying to find a vet that is pro-raw to avoid misdiagnosis
and friction between you two.

Heather

Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: Dinky update/Sandee
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

I took what I had to vet & we did a comparison .....he said to continue untill we got results as it was same as what they have. I checked out the links and plan to order a different this week. He did say I should be using a teas. a day and other vet had said no more than 1/8 teas. per day. She dont like it and when I add it to her meat she refuses to eat it....I have same in a paste formula so have been using that. If she has mackeral or tuna I can hide it.
She really has come far these past few weeks.
Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

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Messages in this topic (12)
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5b. Re: Dinky update/Sandee
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:03 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

I am so glad she is doing better! But what you had (Dogzyme) was a
probiotic, not a digestive enzyme, and would not have any benefit in
digestion of meat and fat.

You might want to think about having something on hand in case she goes
into another one of her "episodes". Better to be safe than sorry!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

> I took what I had to vet & we did a comparison .....he said to continue
untill we got results as it was same as what they have. I checked out the
links and plan to order a different this week. He did say I should be using
a teas. a day and other vet had said no more than 1/8 teas. per day. She
dont like it and when I add it to her meat she refuses to eat it....I have
same in a paste formula so have been using that. If she has mackeral or tuna
I can hide it.
> She really has come far these past few weeks.

Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

It's hard to believe it's almost been a week of feeding raw! I was soooo
nervous at first!!! We've had a very good start. Both my old guy and the
puppy seem to really appreciate their new diet. My old guy has always been
a picky eater and consequently underweight. He's already starting to fill
out some. even my husband commented tonight that he looked better! And the
puppy, who came to us with constant itchies, hasn't been scratching nearly
as much today!

The first day for my old guy was interesting. He was panting tremendously,
and when I took him out in the morning he peed and peed and peed. I figured
it was just the increase in moisture in the diet, but he hasn't peed like
that since. Could it be that he was retaining fluids before? The panting
has also decreased, but is still more than before we started raw.

So far their diet has just been chicken. I've bought whole chickens and
only cut them to the size needed for each dog for that meal. Since stools
were fine I went ahead and started adding the giblets bag into their diet as
well.

My understanding is that after a week or two I should introduce another
protein. Considering my dogs. an older dog that needs to gain weight and a
10 week old puppy. does anyone have a recommendation on what would be a good
second protein? I don't mind if it's different for each. I just want to
feed them the best I can!

I also want to thank everyone here for this fabulous list!!! I have learned
so much already!!!

Karen

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6b. Re: Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:59 pm ((PST))

My understanding is that after a week or two I should introduce another
protein. Considering my dogs. an older dog that needs to gain weight and a
10 week old puppy. does anyone have a recommendation on what would be a
good
second protein? I don't mind if it's different for each. I just want to
feed them the best I can!

#### what a wonderful letter. Congratulations on your amazing results!
What else could it have been, right? ;-))

hmmm... what about some pork?.. That usually goes over quite well. Maybe
also introduce a miniscule amount of liver to them as well?..Could you find
some hearts?... There are endless options of course, but, starting slow and
steady is the best route...there is plenty of time!

Chia & Ricco

(do you see what happens when you follow the advice here?..Not feeding
bony body parts but entire chickens... The transition was seamless with no
issues to speak of...all these voices of wisdom here...priceless!)

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Ditton" <karenditton@...> wrote:

> My understanding is that after a week or two I should introduce another
> protein.

Hi Karen,
Thanks for the glowing update. Its always nice to hear about the easy
transitions. Good news always seems to take a back seat. How about
turkey? Different than chicken, but still comes with some easy to
feed built in bone for stool control. If not turkey, i would vote for
pork. You could buy a couple of bone in pork roasts and cut off hunks
of meat and offer a gradually larger hunk of pork as you gradually
decrease the amount of chicken. Feed the pork roasts down to the bone
covered with a meal of meat and then feed them as the solo entree.
HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Thoughts on day 6 of feeding raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

> Since stools were fine I went ahead and started adding the giblets bag into their
diet as well.

Hi,Karen.Great to hear your both dogs are doing great on new diet.I think that no grain,no additive or preservative,no corn etc in this diet maybe helped your pup for itching issue.

You write,you started adding giblet bag.That is great.I did same.Palette's second week was chicken and chicken liver.

When and what you feed is your choice.There is no such rule that you should feed this next and when you should feed next protin.It all depend on your dogs digestion situation.If the dog digested one protin pretty good on after 4 days,you can start new protin introduction from next day to that.aslong as your dog digest meal good,you can move on to next one but must be introduced one at a time. that way,you can identify what was causing the prob.

> does anyone have a recommendation on what would be a good second protein?

If you want to know how i did.. this is how i did.

whole Chicken-> chicken and chicken gizzard first 3 days andthen chicken and chicken liver from 4days after on second week-> Beef and chicken liver or gizzard->Beef and chicken liver or chicken gizzard or Beef liver->Beef and chicken gizzard or chicken liver or beef liver or combination of beef liver with beef kidney->Beef and fish and chicken gizzard or chicken liver or chiken herat or beef liver/kidney etcetc

See,I add one thing at one time and at the same time, I keep main meat she does good on a little longer and introduce liver etc,and then,move on to new protin and since you already know she is ok with recently introduced organ,you can feed it with newprotin and then,after you know that your dog do good on main meal,you can introduce other organ and you get 2 or more kinds of organ/giblet sidedish you can rotate while you keep your dog on new protin.This is just my way to feed though.

Basically,asfar as main meal goes...I went chicken->beef->Turkey->Pork->lamb->Buffalo->rabbit->pheasant->goat->Elk->Duck->Cornish hen->Mutton->Fowl

I wanted to keep rabbit in menu because it is lean meat and now i can get at local store as well,but my dog did not like it so much andeat it with so disgusting face and eventually,turns the nose up with long long strike on me,so,since she still gets variety with other meats,I dropped rabbit off from menu so,she does not get rabbit now.

Be careful when you feed Tongue,especially lamb tongue has 70% fat in meal and,it is much higher fat% compareto other stuff and,my dog had problem eating it without any poo-problems. Duck too. Now she is ok if Duck had little bit of skin on it but with all skin,she gets diarrhea.Maybe too much fat in food. Your dog maybe fine with fat% in food,but something to keep in mind.

Good luck!

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Dinky update/Giselle
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 pm ((PST))

thanks Giselle- we will keep doing what is working and see how she does....every little bit of help has been working for us.
Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

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8. How much fish oil?
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign emails ++++

I'm nto sure if this is a silly question, but is there a general rule
of thumb for how many fish oil capsules should be given a day/week by
weight of the dog?

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 pm ((PST))

>A house sitter will be feeding and caring for our group over the holiday. I'm figuring chicken is about the safest meal? Safest as in from cannon butt.

Not necessary be it. Some dogs may have prob with chicken.Point is what do your dogs do well on?? Those will be the thing to ask the sitter to feed.

I still have no experience in asking other people to feed my dog but,I need to ,next year when I go back to my country Japan.When I do, I will give the staff at bord that does not take too long to eat and,not the ones that they must observe whole time like ribs meal.I remove such complicated meal or necks etc .

I am thinking any meat that my dogs do well on and it incloude liver too(I can put smidge with meat in bag) just omit ribs,neck,and other big meal stuff like goat leg meat etc and, bag food up..That is my plan.

Bone probably be from poultry while we are away because it is not like they must watch dog long long time and, easy bone to eat and,I know my dog do well on it.andI omit lamb tongue that need to be careful about how much to feed,and if I put duck in meal bag,I prep the skin off because with whole skin,my dog gets diarrhea. My best bet maybe omit lamb tongue and Duck from food bag though.

and,I omit fresh fish but i can give them drained canned fish like sardine,Mackerral and salmon.

I will bag the meal up day by day with zip bag with date on it andall the staff at borders do will be just dump the food for her.

If you know your dog do well on goat,you can ask the sitter to feed goat. You know how much your dog can torelate as far as food amount goes;too much food cause poo-prob.So,you just put safe amount in bag,and good to go.

>I've heard on this list about pumpkin but not sure how to deliver.

Well,pumpkin is the one that home-madediet people use to firm@up thepoo using fiber in it.BUT,too much pumpkin is too much Vitamin A and too much pumpkin with bone cause either constipation or diarrhea;it works for both ways. So,since you arealready feeding bone(I assuming so),so,no need pumpkin.

People who feed pumpkin by home-diet steam pumpkin and mash them.but you don't need such tedious job at all.

>what is the best search word for the past posts?

I think that if you wanted to look for how you can do while you are away from dog,the wording maybe trip or board,I am guessing.

Pumpkin maybe enough word to search thread about it in the past.

yassy

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