[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12396

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: Randy
1b. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: m td

2a. {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
From: Erika
2b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Anna Labriola
3b. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Anna Labriola
3c. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: carnesbill
3d. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Kapstun .

4a. Re: reflux problem
From: jennifer_hell

5a. Re: links on raw
From: jennifer_hell
5b. Re: links on raw
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Sandee Lee
6b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Karen Swanay
6c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Andrea

7. Any One Hunt Elk? I may have found a deal!
From: redangelbordeaux

8a. Re: Need help with Irish Wolfhound and feeding raw
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: bonniepunch

10a. Relapse
From: Cathy Richmond
10b. Re: Relapse
From: Casey Post
10c. Re: Relapse
From: Cathy

11a. Re: Quick stool question
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "Randy" rrostie@gmail.com rjrostie
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:32 pm ((PST))

I looked up tripe on Wikipedia before I posted my original reply and
it says "Tripe is also produced from sheep, goats, and pigs." Of
course that doesn't mean it's the kind you give to dogs and I have no
personal knowledge of tripe.

Randy R

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Tripe is generally considered the lining of a stomach/some of the
> stomachs/all the stomachs of a ruminant. A pig is an ungulate but not
> a ruminant. A pig's stomach is pretty much like ours. Not tripe
> material. Just plain old stomach.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:43 pm ((PST))

"Randy" <rrostie@...> wrote:
>
> I looked up tripe on Wikipedia before I posted my original reply and
> it says "Tripe is also produced from sheep, goats, and pigs." Of
> course that doesn't mean it's the kind you give to dogs and I have no
> personal knowledge of tripe.
*****
Well, I'll certainly agree with the sheep and goats, but I'd have to
dispute pigs. I really do think that coming from a ruminant is pretty
central to the concept. I'll have to look into this further, if I have
the stomach for it. Of course, it could just be a lot of tripe.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "m td" mtd885@yahoo.com mtd885
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:11 am ((PST))

I believe they are called chitterlings pronounced
'chitlins'

mtd

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:32 pm ((PST))

I scored today at Safeway on bone in pork shoulder at $ .69 a lb!

I do believe I actually squealed like a little piggy myself when I read on the label that it was not enhanced and was minimally processed!

I bought out the store, my cart was so full that it was creaking under the weight and it slowed down the belt at the checkout, lol.

Good hunting today and the special continues untill Christmas! It will be pork for a while for my pack!

Erika

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:55 am ((PST))

>I scored today at Safeway on bone in pork shoulder at $ .69 a lb!
>
> I do believe I actually squealed like a little piggy myself when I read
> on the label that it was not enhanced and was minimally processed!
>
> I bought out the store, my cart was so full that it was creaking under
> the weight and it slowed down the belt at the checkout, lol.

Oh, so, so jealous!! Great score!

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:34 pm ((PST))

> But anyway, will welcome hearing from anyone with experience with
dobes
> or similiar breed. Thanks.
>

Hi,

Khan-my soon to be nine month old brown doberman- has been raw fed
completely since 13 weeks. He did stay on whole chickens/quarters
for a whole month before his bowels completely settled down.
However, he does have soft stool now, I just don't sweat it as much.
I don't see that there is much different between mine and other dogs
in a general sense. Mostly, raw is done on an individual basis.
Khan has a sensitive stomach, therefore, I try to add slowly and
don't worry about soft stools.

For example, I think he ate too much of a pork butt in one sitting.
He did also have pork(all meat) the meal before. Next BM, liquidy
poop. No problem! I just gave him a few turkey necks(and less pork
butt!!)

Feel free to contact me with any further questions. Definitely agree
on the "more meat" train. I now mostly feed meat only meal, then
bone in meat meal. Organs on Wed. with more bone. I usually feed
big hunks of stuff until they're done. Tupperware, ziploc, and
garbage bags come in handy. ;o)

Welcome!

Anna and Khan (37 weeks)

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/annalab77/Khan35weeks006.jpg

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:37 pm ((PST))

> But anyway, will welcome hearing from anyone with experience with
dobes
> or similiar breed. Thanks.
>

Welcome!

I have a 37 week old brown doberman that has been completely raw fed
since he was 13 weeks old. He was partially raw at the breeders, dad
fully raw.

Khan had to be on whole chickens/quarters for a whole month to have
some consistency with his BM's. I think, though, I just stopped
worrying about them. For example, he ate two meat only meals in a row,
and the second one was HUGE. Sure enough, he had liquidy poop. Not
diarrhea; he held it until I could bring him outside. So, course of
action: 3 turkey necks that night. I really don't worry so much about
soft BM's, just do a bony meal the next day. I tend to alternate- meat
only meal, bone in meat meal. I do not feed bone only. Usually, when
I give chicken backs, it's cuz cut up fryers were on sale.

Doberman nutrition isn't really different from any other breed on the
list. My holistic vet says that, in her experience, they do tend to be
more sensitive. She has been a blessing-my first vet was completely
against raw!

My advice, start feeding whole chickens. Once bowel tolerance is
established, then add meat meals(he loves beef heart, beef tongue, pork
butt, etc) to tolerance. If you get a liquidy, soft BM, don't fret.
Do a bony meal next time. Khan doesn't seem bothered by them in the
least (althogh, I usually try to get my boyfriend to pick them up.
Yuk!)

Feel free to contact me with any additional questions. Most of them
can be found in the archives. Really, it's not much different from
breed to breed, but more from dog to dog.

Take care,
Anna and Khan

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:39 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "aquilter16" <aquilter16@...>
wrote:
>
> She has been
> on chicken backs for 2 months and have run into a few instances of
> frequent, loose, mucousy stool.

Causes of loose stools:
1. Too much food in one meal. (feed smaller meals)
2. Too much fat early in the diet. (trim skin and fat)
3. Organs fed too early in the diet (don't feed them for a few
months)
4. Not enough bone in the diet (not your problem)

Expect loose stools from time to time. They just happen to most
dogs.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Kapstun ." kapstun@hotmail.com kapstun98
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:48 am ((PST))

Hi! I have 2 dobes that I've been feeding raw going on 3 years now. As the other posters stated, the differences in tolerance to things and reactions are based on the individual dog and not the breed. Both of mine were seniors when I switched them and my male handled anything I gave him pretty well, while my female yacked up bone splinters from turkey drumsticks and big chicken leg quarters for a bit; so, even within the breed, each of my dogs handled the transition differently. My male was also 8 at the time and my female was 6. I also started out with feeding 3% of their ideal body weights, which translated into about 2 1/2 lbs of food per day. I noticed that they actually seemed stuffed and bloated looking after eating that much and they didn't feel like doing much. After consulting with my homeopath after switching, she said I could reduce that amount to 1 lb a day for each of them due to their age, weight, and activity level and that worked very well for them. I found that 2 1/2 lbs was too much for my two although that was the average starting point for most dogs at that weight. At 1 lb of food per day, my male has continued to maintain his weight at around 95 lbs. The biggest thing to consider and take into account is that you need to be very attuned to your pup and watch her poops closely and watch how she eats and be willing and able to tweak her diet according to what she shows you.
I would also not feed the backs too often as that is too much bone and not enough meat. Your pup should be able to handle whole chicken leg quarters with no problem. Depending on where you get them and how they're cut up, a whole quarter can weigh almost a pound by itself. I would keep her on chicken only for the first 2-3 weeks and then gradually start to introduce new things. I've found that although mine love pork, they tend to be much more gassy when they eat it, so I do still buy them pork products, just not more often than I can stand to smell their dober-farts! This list is an invaluable asset when making the switch and reading the posts from others, I learned a lot in a very short amount of time, so keep reading and asking whatever questions you need to. You can also feel free to contact me privately if you like at kapstun@hotmail.com
BJ Judgewww.truthaboutvaccines.org

_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: reflux problem
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:34 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jennifer!
> Sorry to be duplicating my suggestions. Sometimes
its hard
> to remember who has which dog and what their problems are. : (
Giselle, that is not a prblem at all. Seeing that you guys care is
already helping me, as I said to Bill. =)

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: links on raw
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:

>

http://rawfed.com/myths

everything you need is here.
I guess the OP is in the same position as me, and needs more
scientific data to back her up. What helps is for example the study on
carbohydrates (google dog digestion carbohydrates), and for sure the
dogaware.com site- go to kidney disease, and then there's info on how
too much protein doesn't even harm a dog with kidney problems. That
might help you back you up, when people say too much protein is
dangerous and dogs need carbs etc etc. =)

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: links on raw
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:36 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:

> Why are you even bothering to discuss this with unbelievers?

Sandee, the great thing is, it can pay off. I convinced quite a few on
a barf forum. And that's worth the hassle (finding scientific info
etc, unnerving discussions...) to me. =)

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:42 pm ((PST))

So we are back to your concept that every ill is caused by food and cured by
fasting. No leeway for just beginning raw and the digestive adjustments
that can occur when switching from a grain based processed food, adding new
proteins, organs, etc? Nonsense!

I'm still uncertain what criteria you use to determine species appropriate
diet being you feed mainly poultry, low fat, low meat...how does that fit in
with the prey model of a carnivore?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@speakeasy.net>

Most dog owners are under the mistaken impression that dogs need daily
feedings. When symptoms flare up, the first thing that dog owners
should do is back off on feeding because it is the accumulation of
undigested substances in the body that creates the vast majority of
symptoms. If a dog owner is already feeding appropriate foods in
proper quantities such that the dog is never symptomatic, extended
fasting (more than a day or two) need never be employed.

Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:24 am ((PST))

I have not kept up with this thread, I'm just going to add here that some
> believe and I've seen in my own dogs (although I'm not currently feeding
> this way) that gorging followed by fasting seems to make the animals
> actually NOT be hungry. Feeding a small amount once per day keeps the dog
> looking for the food it needs to keep the body running. But if on one day
> you blast the animal with a huge amount of fat, calories, bone, and muscle
> then give nothing for the next two, they are actually satiated. When I
> lived in North Daktoa I fed this way when I'd make a butcher run. As I was
> cutting and packaging I'd give my crew as much as they could eat. They
> would lay around like lions afterward, bellies full to bursting. They slept
> well for days. And then by the third day or so they'd be poking around the
> kitchen looking for more. They did not beg for food during this time. They
> did not scrounge scraps on the floor (you know hoovering up the kitchen)
> they were simply content. It is a more natural way to feed IMO. I just
> can't pull it off with the two I have now. And with the cats I'll often
> feed multiple tiny meals mirroring a score of a rodent nest or bird nest one
> day, then give very little the next day to be followed up by the equivalent
> of a squirrel's worth the following day. Cats it seems are more constant
> hunters than dogs and when I fed that way they too were satisfied although I
> never completely fast cats because mine are fat and I don't want them having
> lipidosis issues.
>

HTH
Karen

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
LID 8/23/07
LOA 11/9/07
TA 12/6/07
CA 01/14/08 @ 10:30am
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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6c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:47 am ((PST))

> during a fast, the body directs its energies to whatever tasks it
> is behind on, and which commonly result in symptoms (in dogs) like
> skin and ear inflammation, diarrhea, scooting, lethargy and a whole
> host of chronic issues.

Interesting, I've never heard this point made before, though I'll admit
I'm not educated on fasting for health. Would you mind supplying a
link to studies/articles that go into more detail on this?

Andrea

Messages in this topic (12)
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7. Any One Hunt Elk? I may have found a deal!
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:45 pm ((PST))

Man I wish I could go on a hunt for my dogs!

I found an add on Craigslist for a special next week. Only $250 for a
cow elk hunt. It's in New Mexico, so close to me :(

Let me know if you want the info.

Perhaps we could split the fee and the meat?

Erika

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Need help with Irish Wolfhound and feeding raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:39 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Rowland"
<kerowland2005@...> wrote:

> I have a 4 1/2 irish wolfhound who I am trying to feed raw. I am
> concerned that I am missing the "basics" with him for his breed.

There is nothing breed specific about feeding a raw diet. The same
principles apply to the smallest dogs and the largest dogs. The
only difference is size and volume of food.

> He only wants chicken backs or ground beef!

It's not terribly important what he wants. He should eat what you
feed him and it's your responsibility to see that he does. It's ok
for him to refuse a meal. If he does, it goes back in the fridge
until next meal time when the same stuff comes right back out agan
and re-offered. If he still refuses, continue until he eats it. He
won't starve to death. He may go 4 or 5 days without eating but it
will be his choice. He will soon discover if he eats at all he will
eat what is offered. Picky eaters are made not born.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "bonniepunch" bonniepunch@gmail.com bonniepunch
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:39 am ((PST))

> I have a serious question ... If I buy a 1/4 pounder at McDonalds or a
> Whopper and Burger king, what is the difference in the meat from the
> ground beef I buy at the gocery store?

I do not have this on any sort of official authority, and it has been
quite some time since I read this, so take it for what it's worth. But
I do recall reading that there was a legal issue fought over the 100%
beef issue. The upshot of it was that all the *meat* in a McD's
hamburger is 100% beef, but the rest of the content was mostly soy
products. If that is true, it's likely that the beef is the cheapest,
fattiest, least appealing part of a cow (??? whatever part that may
be), and the rest of it may actually be not that unhealthy for you
(soy=good(sometimes)). Of course add in the nasty white bread bun,
calorie laden sauce, and old and nutritionally suspect veggies, and
you've got your 'heart attack special'.

I have recently argued that kibble/canned food is more like Ensure or
baby formula - it's got everything humans need to live, but isn't it
better to eat the recommended servings of meat, veggies, dairy, and
grains? If we eat what we evolved to eat, then why shouldn't we feed
our pets the same way?

I know some super-cheap kibble is more like Mc.D's than Ensure, but
the Ensure/baby formula comparison seems to get more attention :-).

BP

Messages in this topic (17)
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10a. Relapse
Posted by: "Cathy Richmond" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:02 am ((PST))

It has been almost 3 mos. now and Dink was doing great untill
yesterday. She hid her food and nibbled but not much.I watched her
close & this am she has started with the runs again...it is not
constant but she takes forever & seems to stain like she still has to
go. After about an hour she hunched down,cried and was looking for a
spot to hide.
She has been eating turkey/chicken breast-skinless with minimal bone
and occassional mackeral. She did get 1 small back with all fat &
skin removed with xtra breast meat.....about 4 days ago. We have had
no shows in over 6 weeks and daily life has been normal-she had been
playing with everyone and seemed to be well.
Any advise on what to feed to get her through and what to calm her
insides?I used to give her pumpkin but am nervous now that i know it
can also give her runs. Would it be ok to give her just meat broth
for a couple days....she will not take the SE even mixed in food-am
afraid she will refuse if i mix it in the broth too.
I have been looking to buy the enzymes but have not found a place-
anyone know where I can get them?
I am back to feeling helpless again-I held her wrapped in a blanket
for last half hour as she was shaking...she has just calmed and is
resting now beside me. I know she will refuse all food but she cant
afford to lose any.
Thanks again
Cathy

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Relapse
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:36 am ((PST))

Cathy,

So sorry to hear about Dink's setback!

I have a similar situation with a little old cat who gets severely
constipated (and it's bad - non-stop vomiting, unable to rest, in pain,
etc. - very hard on a little old cat). Slippery elm is a huge help with her
(along with subQ fluids), but she HATES it. So I make up a syrup of it
(http://www.felinecrf.org/holistic_treatments.htm#SEB_syrup_recipe) and
eyedropper it into her. No, she's not thrilled with the process, but it
makes her feel so much better, it's worth it.

Good luck!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Relapse
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:11 am ((PST))

Thanks Casey- I book marked it to go back over when I return from the hospital.

Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:24 am ((PST))

Thanks for the suggestions...especially to keep a journal which I haven't
been doing. I think I can just recall what I'm feeding him but I should now
better from situations in my own life where I "thought" one thing until I
actually wrote things down and a whole different picture developed.

Meanwhile, I'm feeding him mostly chicken parts (quarters from a whole bird
with giblets, liver, etc portioned out over a few meals), pork necks (whole),
pork loin, beef steak (which I get day of discard from the store I work in),
teeny bit of raw fish (he doesn't like it) and sardines every few weeks, a
whole organic egg here and there, turkey (rarely), pork kidney and heart,
chicken heart, beef or pork tongue (all these interspersed with the chicken to
keep things even). He gets thyroid hormone twice daily and used to get fish oil
but I'm out and deliberating about whether he needs that...thinking salmon
oil if I resume supplementing.

And, yes, I consider myself still new. But more comfortable than I used to
be. Just worry about variety sometimes when I see what others on this list
come up with for their charges.

Thanks again for responding.
Carol

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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Messages in this topic (14)
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