Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12404

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. I am sooo worthless...
From: Irene Clark
1b. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: katkellm
1d. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: heather pavelin
1e. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: carnesbill
1f. Re: I am sooo worthless... Definately NOT
From: sisterloui
1g. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: Heather

2a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Jill Coleman

3a. Re: panting
From: johnsonkp200

4a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
From: Yasuko herron

5a. New Girl on the Block....
From: Jerri Buiting
5b. Re: New Girl on the Block....
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
5c. Re: New Girl on the Block....
From: katkellm

6a. Re: Dental issues
From: Erin Hartiens-Santiago

7a. Where do you get your meat?
From: francesdrew
7b. Re: Where do you get your meat?
From: katkellm
7c. Re: Where do you get your meat?
From: Laurie Swanson
7d. Re: Where do you get your meat?
From: sisterloui

8a. Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: francesdrew
8b. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
9b. Re: So I decided to switch
From: carnesbill

10a. Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
From: jhusselstein
10b. Re: Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

I do believe I am worthless at this whole thing! Don't get me wrong. I
am doing a great job feeding my dogs raw, but even dealing with tripe
or even cow tongue and I get the hebbie jebbies. Some of you are
talking about whether to split a pigs head in half or just bring it
home whole! I can't even deal with slaughtering much of anything myself
much less give my dogs the head of something!
I am a wuss. Is there hope for me and is there a place for such wusses
our there? (Is wusses a word? hehehe) Help me!
Irene

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:27 pm ((PST))

Oh my yes...there is hope for you!!!! You are doing great and definitely
not worthless. You aren't even a wuss! :)

You don't need to be able to slaughter, split, feed heads or bring it home
whole in order to feed your dog appropriately. Just keep on keeping
on...anything you feed raw is worthwhile! And send those tongues to me!
:))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@gmail.com>

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@...> wrote:
>> I am a wuss.

Hi Irene,
I was a wuss, too, at the beginning. Before raw feeding, i wouldn't
stuff a turkey at Thanksgiving because it gave me the creeps to touch
the inside bones. I was a vegan when i started raw feeding and even
though i still cooked meat for my family, it wasn't something i
enjoyed. Then, i decided i wanted my dogs to have as much fun as some
of the dogs i read about on the list and eat whole prey. So, i
ordered pig heads from Prey for Pets for my dogs for Christmas. Well,
when dh saw what i paid with shipping, he made this speech about how
money didn't grow on trees and where did i think pig heads came from
if not a slaughter house and didn't i live in the country about 20min
from a slaughter house....You get my drift. Well, i shifted into
combat mode because no one would deny my dogs the fun that i saw they
had with the heads and lots of the changes i observed because they
were eating big meals, so i called the slaughter house. The rest is
me getting a freezer full of deer trim and heads and legs. Cow
heads, beef hearts, liver, spleen, kidney. All of the stuff is free.
So, start slow, keep an open mind, and be prepared to "dewuss" along
the way--it will happen as your raw feeding journey unfolds. KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "heather pavelin" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

It does get better!! Take it from a vegetarian that feeds raw meat to her dogs lol. At first I couldnt believe the meat I was cutting for my dogs argrg and the smell was terrible. Now it is second nature to me. I just recently starting tackling whole turkeys! that was a sight I tell you. Keep up the good work!! Heather

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@...>
wrote:
>
> am doing a great job feeding my dogs raw, but even dealing
> with tripe or even cow tongue and I get the hebbie jebbies.

Don't worry about it, Irene. I have been feeding raw for over 5
years and have never fed tripe and don't intend to. It's really not
all the nutrious anyway. I have never fed head of any kind except
when it was attached to the body(rabbits) and don't intend to. I
have fed tongue a few times and probably will again. It's not
pleasant but isn't really all that bad after a time or two. Like
the others you mentioned, its not required that you feed these
things.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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1f. Re: I am sooo worthless... Definately NOT
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:38 pm ((PST))

Hi Irene,

LOL you most definately are not a wuss.

I am a committed meat eater myself but have suddenly started handling
lots of bits of animals I never thought i would see (grin)

I think the easisest thing for me has been the fact that i live in a
major city here in the uk,that has lots of butchers in a very small
area.

I buy from them what they call "meat trim" its an almost perfect mix
of organ meats, fats and meat that is simply waste for them but as I
am happy to take it off their hands for about 10 cents a pound I now
have several regular suppliers. Its all in fairly small pieces,
bigger than mince but not bigger than about an inch square.

(this for me is a zero squeemishness food (grin)

I really do think that "where" you live has a big impact on the type
of foods you can feed and of course availability.

TO give all you folks a laugh, and to prove I do get squeamish from
time to time !!!

I called at my local butchers to collect meat and with them ordering
extra in for Christmas I was delighted to lug home 4 bags of very
heavy Marrow bones (i thought) only to take out 6 lovely , whole and
complete pigs heads !!!

Oh how I struggled with the eyes ! (grin)

Well I failed . To bring in a link to a previous post about
slaughtering pigs, my father was delighted. Some of his favourite
foods are pig chaps (cheeks) brawn (brain) and tongue.

I told him to just call it an early Christmas present, although my
mum wasnt so pleased to have to cook them.

A final point. I do so admire the folks on this list who although
vegetarian by choice do choose to feed their dogs in "their" natural
way. Very open minded and very admirable.

Best wishes
Jane
(sisterloui)

Messages in this topic (7)
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1g. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:40 pm ((PST))

I'm jumping on the vegetarian bandwagon as well. I was horrified at
the thought of feeding meat to my dog but I soon got over it. It helps
when I am able to take meats and scraps that are going to be thrown
away.. that way I feel like that animal didn't die for nothing. I
still have some issues handling fresh liver and had the joy of getting
a trachea with attatched lungs and heart before. Fresh lung is
something you just have to experience! LOL. I have never fed heads and
never will (not even whole rabbit because my dog hates rabbit and the
head is too big for my 5.5 lb kitten). I do feed my kitty whole quail,
mice and soon to be guinea pigs. Tripe is something I have no desire
to purchase. I can say you will get desensitized to these things the
more you experience them.

Heather

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Jill Coleman" aquilter16@hotmail.com aquilter16
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

Yes, she is doing fine on the scaled down portions of chicken backs. After the holidays when things have calmed down I will start searching out a better variety and work on introducing it slowly. Thanks for the support and guidance, much appreciated.

Jill and Hannah.

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: taggartgalt@yahoo.comDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:02:53 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe

Yay!!!Anna and KhanHannah is > back to normal now that I realize I am feeding way to much.

_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007

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Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: panting
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:28 pm ((PST))

I have read the question of panting with interest.
There is a fascinating blog site (whose URL I have LOST!) written by a
guy who lives with the Eskimos along the Bering Sea off Alaska. This
guy lives the life of the nomad hunter of seal used for daily
substenence. With using digital batteries out of the question, and
lacking liquid water, he will develop his photos using ICE.

Anyway, he claims that one of their staple foods they (people) eat are
strips of frozen raw caribou, and that when they eat it, it makes them
very very warm - makes them sweat no matter how cold it is outside!

If this is true, then I wonder if eating raw meat, or perhaps certain
types of raw meat, or perhaps certain types of frozen raw meat, has the
same effect on dogs?
Karen

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:51 pm ((PST))

>I started my pup at seven weeks on quail; Meal three was quail and a wee blop of
green tripe. she had successfully eaten quail, venison, chicken meat, smashed chicken back, a smashed wing+ cut from a cornish game hen, a piece of salmon filet, a mouthful of lamb, a pork blade bone to clean up, a chicken heart, a mere smear of chicken liver.

Hi,Chris. As you know,I don't have a puppy to feed but, puppy feeding is looking not clear to me so,would you tell me about puppy feeding?

I know how much to feed,and how often,but what to feed is tricky to understand.

Like human,dog has puppy teeth andit fell off right? But you still can feed same food that i feed to palette;Beef Rib,Buffalo rib,Eljk rib,or Necks from many animals;mainly questioning about red meat with bone part. Is there such thing that puppy teeth is lot weaker than adult teeth??

I see how we start is same;chicken and looks like, to serve,it served with smashed and or ground or chunk of meat to start with.

How long do you have to smash bone or give ground meat or chink of meat to puppy?

and from when can you introduce ribs or neck etc red meat with bone ;something that may require stronger teeth?? or until puppy teeth is gone,you mustrely on poultry for bone intake and as variety,you feed red bonless meat??

Or,whether I feed puppy or not,I can feed everything I feed palette with same condition and same variety andjust size and meal frequency isdifferent??

Thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. New Girl on the Block....
Posted by: "Jerri Buiting" jerribuiting@yahoo.com jerribuiting
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:51 pm ((PST))

Hi,

WOW -- not sure I can do this either -- I can definitely relate to
the WUSS girl! This whole thing started a week ago when I (aided by
dh who refuses to spend any more money on vet bills) decided to start
dealing with food allergies. This is a 'guess' on my part with
regards to my 5-year old Chow who has started itching and losing hair
over the last couple of months. Vet thought it was seasonal
allergies and that they would go away once the cold weather started.
After 3 shots and cold weather definitely setting in, we aren't any
better. So....we're starting out on our own! I have a few questions
that I haven't found answers to:

First, I'll admit my naivety when talking about chicken. I'm hearing
that chicken and beef top the list when thinking about food
allergies, so I should start out with something brand new. I have a
freezer full of venison that is about a year old that we were going
to throw out, so I thought I'd start with it.....problem is that it
is has already been butchered into roasts, so no bone or organs. How
can I add these to the diet. Where do I just get bones and if I'm
just starting out, do they have to be deer bones?

2) I thought one was NEVER to give chicken bones to dogs because of
fear that they break and lodge in their throats? Boy do I have a lot
to learn.....

3) To confirm what I've already read --- we are to feed 2-3% of a
dogs weight, split up into a couple of meals?

4) Supplements: Is it ok to give human supplements of flaxseed oil
and Omega 3's? What would dosage be for a 58# dog?

Thanks for your help~

Jerri (mommy of Mocha)

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: New Girl on the Block....
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 pm ((PST))

Jerri,
Ok, newbie, welcome aboard, and you're in the right place.
NEVER EVER THROW MEAT AWAY, EVER EVER EVER:))))
In our world meat never goes bad, you can even get it from your friends and family from thier freezers and so on. The dogs can handle meat that has freezer burn, that has been thawed and refrozen, or even gone bad and turned stinky bad. Trust me, they can handle it. (you might not be able to but they can)
Answer to #1:
On the chicken and beef being tops for allergies that is right when you are dealing with kibble, usually not the same with raw fed dogs. And your vet is just guessing, since I figure he didn't do the major testing done to actually figure it out, and then he would've told you really what the allergies were. My Akita was allergic to wood, dust, grass, fleas, but none of her allergies were food related. (after testing) My danes came to me with allergies both, (as puppies) skin problems, and within two days on raw, (whole chickens where our menu) were gone. But if you are worried, the deer meat is fine to start with if you have a few weeks worth on hand. If you want to try chicken, you can, and see if it gives you any problems, I would almost be willing to bet it won't. You want to keep them on one source of meat for several weeks. And no bones or organs for a few weeks is just fine.
As far as organs and bones, for the first few weeks, just doing the meat, is fine, you can work the organs and bones in later, after the switch. Once you know the dogs are used to the meat, you can add in other things.
For your organs, you can get liver, of any kind, chicken, beef, or hearts, and so on, at the grocery store, and once a week for those is fine. I feed my Great Danes whole chickens, and they come with the organs inside them, each dog gets half a chicken and I split the organs with the two of them, and that is a meal for the night. And the bones on raw meat are soft, and do no harm to dogs, or cats, and they chew them up and eat them fine, no choking or getting caught in the throat, unless you have a gulper, then you think larger pieces so they absolutely have to chew the food. If it takes a whole chicken to slow down a dog, then do that, some people do that to keep it from choking down the food too fast. What ever is left, is kept for the next mealtime.
#2:
On the have a lot to learn, yes, but we all do, you'll get there, keep reading, asking questions, and letting us know how it goes, so we can help you out if an adjustment is needed.
#3:
2-3% is correct, and it doesn't have to be an exact science, if they are gaining, go less, if losing, give more. You know how your dog should look. If puppies, give what they should weigh. Splitting meals is great if your dogs are puppies, or just new, and finicky. If they catch on, once a day if fine, it's up to you on how easy it is for you and what your dogs like. And if they give you a hard time, don't worry, a dog can go for several days without food, but will eventually eat. Most pick up on it right away.
#4:
On suppliments, I only do Garlic/Brewers yeast, for flea control, and vitamin c, because it doesn't stay in the system and it helps with Giant Breed specific problems.
On the flaxseed oil and omegas, that is something, if you feed fish, (yes, fish is meat too) you won't need to do. If your dogs don't like fish, then you would want to consider it, (on doses, someone else here would be better suited to answer that, since I don't do it) because they need those things. My dogs didn't do fresh fish, but loved canned mackeral. I get it at the canned food warehouse when it is on sale, and it was suggested by someone here, since I figured mine would never eat fish, and it worked. Instead of rolling in it, they now eat it. And therefore I don't have to suppliment the diet much. The more variety you can give them in the meat, the less you have to suppliment. A good, variety, prey model diet, can meet all your dogs needs.
When you want to add in bones, do it with the meat, like bone in a hunk of what ever meat you have, like whole chickens, or a rack or ribs, and give them the whole rack, let them eat whatever part of the bones they want and then throw the rest away when they no longer have an interest. I also use pigs feet, any ribs, pork, beef, shanks, anything with a bone in it. But my dogs can handle any bones, they are giants, and are good with all bones. Most people don't let thier dogs eat, or chew on weight bearing bones, those would be the legs, and feet. Sometimes dogs can get carried away and hurt the teeth on these hard bones. Mine don't get carried away, if they can't eat the bones, they go to the next one. There isn't a bone my Zena won't chew on, she has a cow leg/foot in the back yard now, loves it. I have several more in the freezer. (my husband swears when he sees her with that leg, that there is a three legged cow somewhere out there) Our meat
guy gives us those for free:) I use the pork shoulder for a meal and save the bone out of it for when I need to keep one of them busy for a while. I just leave some meat on it:) I do that a couple of times and I have a couple of bones too.
It just takes time and patience to learn what they need and what they will or won't eat. And alot of trial and error, and error and error, and did I mention error?
And I figure, putting my money where the dogs mouth is, is way better than lining the pockets of a person who is usually only treating the symptoms, not the problem, so the intake of the food, was my best bet. What goes in is better, so the health should get better, and it did, and has since. I'm also hoping longevity will be a side effect of the diet for my Giant Breed dogs too, only time will tell on that one. I hope I answered your questions, more will answer them too, and probably different, we all have opinions.
Go with your gut, it is usually right most of the time, and it's the stomach too:)
Jeni
Owned, operated by, and often tricked by my two Great Danes, Zeus and Zena, our little Pomchi, Daisy, and the cat Lucky, and our newest addition, a Chihuahua, noname, but we will come up with one soon, he's Daisy's new playmate, so she doesn't get stepped on by the danes:)

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: New Girl on the Block....
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jerri Buiting" <jerribuiting@...>
wrote:

> 2) I thought one was NEVER to give chicken bones to dogs because of
> fear that they break and lodge in their throats? Boy do I have a lot
> to learn.....

Hi Jerri,
The great news is that you couldn't have come to a better place to
learn. Chicken bones are only dangerous, all bones for that matter,
when they are cooked. Raw chicken bones are completely edible for
dogs.
>
> 3) To confirm what I've already read --- we are to feed 2-3% of a
> dogs weight, split up into a couple of meals?

How many meals you feed is kind of optional, but when you divide 2-3%
of the dog's ideal adult weight into 2 feedings, you make the portions
kind of small for a really good dental chew. I would suggest that if
you feed twice a day now that you continue to do so at the beginning.
Keep an open mind and if it becomes something you are comfortable
with, i would recommend you drop down to once a day.
>
> 4) Supplements: Is it ok to give human supplements of flaxseed oil
> and Omega 3's? What would dosage be for a 58# dog

Flax seed oil is a grain based supplement and carnivores have no need
for, nor can they utilize, grain products, so i would recommend salmon
oil for adding 3's to the diet. The recommended dosage is 1000 mg per
20-30lbs of dog. People ones from Wal-Mart are fine.

Deer meat is, imo, the most desirable of all proteins. You are lucky
to have so much of it. I guess you'll probably get several
suggestions on how/when/what to start with, so my idea would be to
start with chicken for a week. In the beginning week, bone is
essential for stool control, it helps keep things firmed up. Though
you can mix bone and meat varieties, i wouldn't suggest it at the
start. Organs don't need to be the same as the meat you are feeding,
and you shouldn't feed any for at least a week. If you feed chicken
for a week and your dog doesn't have any loose stools, the second week
you could feed one meal of chicken and the second meal could be a
boneless hunk of deer meat. Dogs that are allergic to the chicken
that is cooked in kibble are usually not allergic to raw chicken. I
wouldn't restrict my menu because of that for the time being. HTH,Kathy

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Dental issues
Posted by: "Erin Hartiens-Santiago" erinhart75@yahoo.com erinhart75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

> You'll have to watch your girl to make sure that she's not going to
get
> frustrated and just try swallowing something too large for her,
though. One
> of those "know thy dog" situations, yes?
>
> Casey
>
*********************************************
Thanks for the input Casey. I think you're totally right. Our vet is
very well-intentioned, but she hasn't taken the time to really
research raw feeding and she doesn't really endorse it (she's more of
the "I support your right to make your own choices" type). That
leaves me to do all the research on my own. I've been thinking a lot
about what I can do to encourage her to take her time. Since her
portions are fairly small, I am thinking I might start feeding larger
portions just once a day (versus the current twice per day schedule
she is on). That way she really has to work her jaws and work on the
teeth she has left. My biggest issue is that she will swallow a large
chunk whole, even if it's too big - so I end up having to scoop the
food out of her throat! We do feed them on our back porch and in the
yard area, so they have time to gnaw on their food...I just have to
teach her how to do this since she's never had to chew her food!

We've had a lot of success with raw feeding - we have four dogs and
one cat, all raw and all healthy. Our newest family member is an 8-wk-
old French Bulldog that we've just switched to raw in the past few
days (we just got him over the weekend from a non-raw breeder). There
is new information out there everyday, so I appreciate hearing the
experiences of fellow raw feeders.

So again, thank you!

Erin S.

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "francesdrew" francesdrew@yahoo.com francesdrew
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

I am looking for new ideas of where to get meat/bones for my 3 large dogs. I currently
feed them chcken (that i buy bulk from Sam's and cut up myself), pork butt, beef meat and
beef liver and turkey (on sale that I cut up), plus chicken liver and gizzards. I am
wondering where people get the more odd things, like chicken legs, heads of any
animal...anything like that.

So...what kinds of meat do you feed and where do you get it...especially if it is an
"unusual" meat.

Thanks,
Frances

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7b. Re: Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "francesdrew" <francesdrew@...> wrote:
> So...what kinds of meat do you feed and where do you get
it...especially if it is an
> "unusual" meat.

Hi Frances,
Going to a slaughter house is one option. Ethnic markets have lots of
non grocery store parts. Depending on where you live, you can order
heads and such on line.

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/

Sorry i couldn't be more helpful. I go to the slaughter house to get
my unusual stuff. I feed lots of deer and cow heads in the winter and
add beef heart and deer trim to up the meat content. In the warmer
weather, i feed whatever deer scraps i have left in the freezer along
side chicken or pork or whatever i can find on sale. KathyM

Messages in this topic (11)
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7c. Re: Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:37 pm ((PST))

Hi Frances,

Depends on what kind of area you live in--rural/urban, etc... A few
ideas: Asian or Hispanic markets, finding
farmers/ranchers/breeders/hunters/fishermen/taxidermists/butchers/meat
& game processors online (craigslist, freecycle, etc.) or thru the
phone book and developing relationships and asking for anything they
have leftover or want to sell, see if you can special order anything
from your local markets (cases of beef heart or chicken feet maybe),
find a local buying co-op (let us know your area and maybe someone can
let you know--we have one for WA/OR and can get a lot of variety),
check the carnivore feed supplier yahoo group for sources...

Hope that helps,

Laurie

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7d. Re: Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:39 pm ((PST))

Hi there,

I am from the inner city of Sheffield in the uk.

I get most of my meat and bones from local butchers (within walking
distance from home) Once i proved i would be a regular collector they
were delighted to save all the meat scraps for me.

Occasionally i need to go a little further afield to the larger meat
market but if i go on a monday they are often selling the human quality
meats, that didnt sell over the weekend at a lower price. Good marrow
bones can always be found here as they do get full carcases to butcher.

Best wishes,
Jane
(sisterloui)

Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "francesdrew" francesdrew@yahoo.com francesdrew
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

I have a 12 year old large dog (boxer, ridgeback mix) and she's been on raw for about 8
weeks now. She's looking healthy but her skin seems to be dry and a bit itchy. I've been
feeding chicken, beef, pork, turkey and sometimes eggs. I have started adding a little cod
liver oil to her diet, as she will not eat fish. Am I doing right, or is there anything else I
should consider?

I have 2 other dogs who do not seem to be suffering from dry skin.

Thanks,
Frances

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

"francesdrew" <francesdrew@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 12 year old large dog (boxer, ridgeback mix) and she's been
on raw for about 8
> weeks now. She's looking healthy but her skin seems to be dry and a
bit itchy. I've been
> feeding chicken, beef, pork, turkey and sometimes eggs. I have
started adding a little cod
> liver oil to her diet, as she will not eat fish.
*****
Take her off the cod liver oil and instead give her fish BODY oil. She
doesn't need the liver oil; it doesn't deliver the levels of Omega 3
faty acids that BODY oil does, but provides more vitamin A and D than
she needs. Look for a fish body oil (salmon or mixed fish, doesn't
matter) with a combined DHA/EPA amount of at least 300mg per capsule.
You can comfortably dose this at 1 capsule per 20 pounds of dog. At
this level there is little likelihood of generating loose stools.

Fish body oil may help with the skin; it will certainly support your
dog's immune system which at 12 years is probably a bit wheezy. Other
things to try are more dietary fat (at her age increase amounts slowly)
and more eggs, if she can digest them comfortably.

If dietary tweaks don't help, suspect dry heat and overall
environmental issues. While here on the West Coast winter generally
means rain, elsewhere the relative humidity can be very low. Also suss
out any meds she's on or excessive bathing.

HTH,
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:39 pm ((PST))

Hi again Frances,

The dryness/itchiness can sometimes just be a temporary symptom while a
dog adjusts. It also seems to happen sometimes when people feed a lot
of poultry and/or a lack of grass-fed/appropriately-fed prey animals.
They have different fat profiles (high in omega 6's, low in omega
3's). It could also be due to winter and being inside with dry heat.
If you're going to do a fish oil supplement, fish body oil seems to be
better than cod liver (check the archives if you don't get any more
responses on that).

Good luck,

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

I know it says to start off with one protein but while they were on
Canidae as a treat they would get raw beef bones, hearts and turkey
necks. So I guess I got to excited because I thought they were "used"
to having raw food, for a week I will do all chicken and I want to
supplement with an egg a day, is that ok? too much? What do you use
for treats? My dogs compete in agility and I'm pretty sure you cant
bring raw food. Also I have heard pork isn't great.
The girls are a little gassy tonight but I am sure that is normal. It
is a little distressing when I look online for info and see anti raw
sites, some have pics of dogs choking to death on bones, I was a
little taken back.

Also my pups are a little mutt, complete heinz 57 no one knows what
she is named Kahlie Jordan (pronounce cali)
and a rescue cocker spaniel narmed Kahrma Q How do you post pictures?
oh and I am Madie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@>
> wrote:
> > So today I woke up and decided to go all raw :)
>
> Wow, great shopping job, and i love your enthusiasm. You might want to
> hold off feeding all that variety for a few weeks, though. Toss the
> stuff in the freezer, except for maybe the chicken, and hold off
> feeding it for the time being. Generally, it is recommended that you
> pick one protein source, i vote for chicken, and feed only that meat
> for a week. If all goes well, you can pick a new meat and introduce
> it the second week. In the course of several weeks, you can feed your
> way through chicken, pork, turkey, beef, whatever you can purchase to
> feed. Then, you'll be ready to open the freezer and try variety and
> mixing it up. KathyM
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
>
> I want to supplement with an egg a day, is that ok? too much?

There is no reason to. There is plenty of time to give him eggs in
the future. I always advocate taking things slow and easy to avoid
digestive upsets. They are never pleasant.

> What do you use for treats?

Use whatever you have been using. I use soft commercial treats that
can be broken down in to very very small pieces. Treats don't have
to be large to be effective. They make up such a small part of the
diet as to be inconsequential.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
Posted by: "jhusselstein" jhusselstein@yahoo.com jhusselstein
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:45 pm ((PST))

Hi there everyone! You are sure a great group to learn from -

My name is Jessica, and my dog is Kona - (Great Dane, 2 years old)
and I've been snooping around all of your raw feeding websites for
about 3 weeks now, maybe a month. I think I'm ready to make the
switch. I'm off work for the next few weeks, so I can be home to
keep an eye on her after she eats...

So, I think I'll start with the Chicken Backs, although I've never
seen them in the store, I could probably ask the butcher for a few,
or hack them off myself and cook the rest for my 2 legged
children...:)

I'm going to break out the old crate, and ( assuming she still fits
in it, ) feed her in there. Probably with a towel to keep down the
mess.

Do Crate feeders regularly bleach out the crate after the dog eats?
Maybe that Chlorox anywhere that is (supposed to be) safe around
food?

So, if Kona is about 120 pounds ( she's kinda scrawny - she won't
eat more than 3 or so cups of dry food,and you can JUst see all of
her ribs when she's stretched out..., I should bee feeding her about
a pound and a half a day, right?

As soon as her tummy is OK with the chicken backs, I'll move to
leg/thighs, and the organs from the innards, maybe one a day?

I'm guessing all that will take me the better part of a month,
right? Am I missing anything? I'm always up for learning how others
have tried things and applying them to my situation!

Thanks for everything so far - I'll be sticking around to see how it
plays out!
Jessica and Kona

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:36 pm ((PST))

"jhusselstein" <jhusselstein@...> wrote:
>
> So, I think I'll start with the Chicken Backs, although I've never
> seen them in the store, I could probably ask the butcher for a few,
> or hack them off myself and cook the rest for my 2 legged
> children...:)
*****
Chicken backs are all about bone. Bone is good, meat is better.
Although feeding a diet heavy on bone (backs or otherwise) gives one
a sense of confidence, it's false progress because a diet structured
heavily on bone does not--very simply--provide adequate meat. So if
you plan to start with chicken backs, I recommend you also start with
meat. Either feed chicken backs with chicken meat, or feed chicken
backs with other meat. Same meal. Chicken backs and meat. I've
found that chicken backs are so bony that they with virtually ANY
other meat make up meals that typically generate stools that do not
freak newcomers out.

Or you could feed chicken leg quarters. Or you could feed rib-in
chicken breasts. Or you could feed half a chicken.

> Do Crate feeders regularly bleach out the crate after the dog eats?
> Maybe that Chlorox anywhere that is (supposed to be) safe around
> food?
*****
Not if we can help it! It is not necessary to bleach out anything,
certainly not the close confines of a crate. First you have to
realize that most dogs clean up after themselves for fear of missing
something. Secondly, they don't make that much of a mess anyway.
And third, wiping down with a damp rag is plenty enough. If you want
to get fancy, you can make a vinegar/water spritz. And if you are
positively tormented by the notion that your dog might strew germs
about her own crate, you can wipe down once with hydrogen peroxide
and then a second time with vinegar/water. THAT would be heavy duty.
No bleach needed, no place.

> So, if Kona is about 120 pounds ( she's kinda scrawny - she won't
> eat more than 3 or so cups of dry food,and you can JUst see all of
> her ribs when she's stretched out..., I should bee feeding her
about
> a pound and a half a day, right?
*****
You want to feed her according to the weight she should be, not is
(unless of course her current weight is proper). Forget how much
kibble she's eating, raw is different altogether. If she "should"
weight 150, that would be perhaps THREE pounds a day. 150lb x 2% =
3lb.

One and a half pounds is 2% of 75 pounds.

You don't have to weigh, you don't have to measure, you do have to
feed to your dog's needs. If weighing helps now, weigh away, just
know that the weight of the food is less important than how the food
affects the dog. Your girl may require four pounds a day! Or not.
But I doubt she needs as little as 1-1/2pounds.

> > As soon as her tummy is OK with the chicken backs, I'll move to
> leg/thighs, and the organs from the innards, maybe one a day?
*****
One a day is what I can give my 30 pound Border Collie! Leg quarters
tend to run a pound a piece or less: not nearly enough for your
girl. Once you get beyond the generally artificial beginning diet,
you should be thinking half chickens at least. And you don't want to
be feeding all the liver all the time until your dog is very (as in
very) comfortable with her diet. If you want to add teensy bits and
pieces of liver early on, fine.

But please don't feed liver generously for some time. You'll produce
loose stools and you'll get all upset and scared and even though
loose stools rarely mean more than too much food, you'll have to be
calmed down and consoled and what you'll end up having to do is back
off the liver. So you might as well just do it now.

Chicken hearts are pretty benign IMO, and gizzards aren't organs at
all but muscle, so both of these parts can be fed from day one if
you've a mind to.

I'm guessing all that will take me the better part of a month,
> right?
*****
Don't put yourself on the clock. It takes as long as it takes.
Going slowly is generally more productive than zipping along, but
then again if things are going just GREAT you can pick up the pace a
bit. You must use your dog's progress to determine what you do and
where you go next. Always always be prepared to back off, slow down,
retreat to the last successful food if/when things go south.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, December 20, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12404

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