Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 8, 2007

Thursday, November 8, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12259

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: 08/10/10
From: Tina Berry
1b. Re: 08/10/10
From: JustTom
1c. Re: 08/10/10
From: JustTom
1d. Re: 08/10/10
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Please explain this..
From: helpshelteranimals
2b. Re: Please explain this..
From: Patty Linden
2c. Re: Please explain this..
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: Please explain this..
From: JustTom
2e. Re: Please explain this..
From: woofwoofgrrl
2f. Re: Please explain this..
From: totaly_his
2g. Re: Please explain this..
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: patti.h310
3b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: carnesbill

4.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: Yasuko herron
4.2. Re: Feeding Pork
From: ychinook
4.3. Re: Feeding Pork
From: carnesbill

5a. Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
From: miensasis
5b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
From: JustTom

6. Before I forget
From: everfade79

7a. Re: excessive shedding
From: Jacinta Loo

8. Diarrhea...Loose Stools
From: margo532001

9a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: sarahfalkner

10a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: woofwoofgrrl

11. Postrate problems
From: Tracey WAGC

12a. Re: Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
From: carnesbill

Messages
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1a. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:55 pm ((PST))

"Is the 10% every week, or every couple of weeks, or a month, or just so I
try to balance it out?"

It's over time; so it can be weekly, over two weeks a month - whatever works
best for you to get it in there.

"Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the organ needs, and if so,
how often?"

This is whole prey, but not enough to cover 10% organs over total diet.

"My intent is to eventually feed mainly whole rabbit, which I think is
pretty much the complete food, but until then, I'd like to make sure she
isn't lacking for anything."

Whole rabbit is awesome! I currently feed 100% venison and weekly give them
a lb of liver - oh, and they get raw egg daily with fishoil for the
shedding.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:19 pm ((PST))

--- Tina Berry <k9baron@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Whole rabbit is awesome! I currently feed 100%
> venison and weekly give them
> a lb of liver - oh, and they get raw egg daily with
> fishoil for the
> shedding.

I've been lurking for quite a while, and I thought
that I'd seen mention here and in other places that a
fringe benefit of raw was shedding was noticeably
reduced. Not your experience?

thanks,
tom

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:

> JustTom <general.woundwort@...> wrote:>
> > Anyway, sorry for the ramble there,
> *****
> But what a fine and fancy ramble it was. Any time,
> Tom, any time.
>

Don't encourage me. I'm a professional rambler, born
in the fires of usenet.

> *****
> IMO, now is good.
> Small amounts and added to the meals you know are
> successful; no
> single-organ feasts quite yet. Besides, what
> happens when you
> overfeed is loose stools, not the end of the earth.
> If you find
> you've fed more than you meant to, back up and be
> more conservative
> the second time.
>

In addition to being a fine killer, she's also a very
reserved and modest lady. In the 6 years we've had
her, I've never seen her go to the bathroom, and I've
never found any "surprises" in the yard either. I
know poop's a big topic on here, but I'm going to have
to miss out.
I tend to just listen to her tummy to see what's up.
You can here pretty distinctly when things aren't
going well. I guess she thinks she's a bear... ; )

>
> > Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the
> organ needs, and
> if so, how often?
> *****
> Depends. A whole, unprocessed bird has lots more
> liver to offer than
> storebought chicken does, so feeding storebought
> chicken will not
> likely be enough,

<snip>

For the moment, her chicken is storebought. I'll
likely raise a couple of hundred broilers next spring,
so she'll have to wait for the good stuff.
I'll have to go shopping at a regular grocery and see
what I can find. I tend to do most of my shopping at
Sam's, and all of the beef in the freezer is my own.

> I'm a big fan of ruminants and
> ungulates myself; rabbits
> rarely are long term meals for wolves and certainly
> can't sustain
> entire packs. But if a lucky wolf comes across a
> slow bunny, the
> bunny will almost certainly be some sort of meal.

I just got back from feeding the ruminants and
ungulates, but all are still on hoof for the near
future, as are the 2 week old chicks that will turn
into next year's layers, and the rabbits. So, I have
to make do with storebought for a while.

I had the misfortune of losing one of my brood does
last night while she was giving birth to 11 kits, so
Bailey will be getting her first rabbit this weekend.
I've got a few questions about that but will start a
new thread.

thanks,
tom

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, JustTom <general.woundwort@...>
wrote:
>
Tom,
Since your girl catches a lot of her own prey, I suspect you don't
have to worry about organs at all. I have two cats that I would
extimate half their diet comes from outside. I have never fed either
of them any organs ever. I tried to in the beginning and they wanted
no part of them so I figure they are getting all they need outside.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:56 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...>
wrote:
>
> I am new to rawfeeding. This is week 4 for me.
********
Welcome to the wonderful world of raw feeding! You cannot do
anything better for your dog!

Could someone please explain to me how you
> can give a dog raw meat that smells bad and she eat it without any
ill effects?
Jackie
*********
I cannot explain to you HOW it works except for that their digestive
system is much different than ours.

My dog actually prefers his meat 'aged'. When I first introduced him
to chicken gizzards he wanted nothing to do with them for 2 days.
They got pushed to the back of the fridge and I forgot about them
till a week later. They were NASTY smelling and the juice around
them turned green. As soon as I opened the container to dump them
out Ruffian came running. I have them to him and he gobbled them
right up, no ill effects...not even soupy poos!

AG & Ruffian (mystery mutt)

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

Andrea--Great idea! After reading this, I quickly moved my dog's food from the ziplock bag it was in to a large plastic tub. Your idea about the anerobic bacteria makes sense.
:-) Patty

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote: >

Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
gross. Something to look into.

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:00 pm ((PST))

>how you can give a dog raw meat that smells bad and she eat it without any ill
effects?

Hi,Jackie. I am no expert but,I think it is maybe something to do with dog's shorter intestine or strong acid stomach.I do not know how many day old smelly meat dog can torelate max, but I hear dog can eat old meat without any ill effects.

> How does it not bother her ?

Circumstance is different but you know there is AGED beef steak (these are not in zip bag but hanged for days?months?),and people say it is tastier than regular steak.So,maybe aged meat is tastier for dog maybe??

> One other question: How long approximately (being on this new raw diet) will it take for my girl to stop having the "runs" every time I introduce a new meat protein or organ meat?

Depending on dogs ability of torelance I think. My dog did not have any run on Beef,Pork,Chicken,Turkey at all. She had prob with Lamb tongue and Duck.I feeding for about 5 months and those 2 protins needs to be served specific way.

For lamb tongue,on round one,she had to have 1oz plus any meat she can do good on and more than 1 oz caused loose stool.And for Duck,she had diarrhea on skin on so,combo meal with skin off was she could torelate most.

Now,second round,for lamb tongue,she can torelate 1.5oz but not more yet so,still need to be combo. And Duck,she did not need to be combo anymore but cannot have skin on yet.

So,as months of rawfeeding goes,I think torelence changes and can have better torelence I feel.

Some dogs may have needs adjustment each time when new protin is introduced and,if fed from small amount,the dog may do good and gradulally increase the newprotin and it may not triggerthe loose stool. This one,I think you need to explore what amount andhow served can be torelated better for your dog.

Or,80-10-10 ratio thing may not be for your dog and may need more bone than that.

Or simply you are feeding too much new food all at once.

Try introduce oneprotin at a time but stay on one protin until you see your dog does well on it.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:09 pm ((PST))

--- Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> Circumstance is different but you know there is
> AGED beef steak (these are not in zip bag but hanged
> for days?months?),and people say it is tastier than
> regular steak.So,maybe aged meat is tastier for dog
> maybe??

Beef is aged depending upon fat content and marbling
of the animal.

Dry aged is hung anywhere from 7 to 21 days.
You'll find these in fine restarants and home raised
or butchered beef.

Wet hanging (like the one Rocky beat up in the movie)
and is an accelerted shortcut. Those are most of your
supermarket steaks.

Meat spoiling in your fridge would be closer to the
wet method, but I'd think it would be more of the
stronger smell for a dog.

tom: master of meat trivia

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2e. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the tip on the non-airtight container - does it actually stay
'fresher' longer, or does it just get slimy?

However, I have to admit I'm a bit confused - Doesn't a nice hole in the
backyard bushes effectively make an airtight 'container'?

Christine

Andrea > Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
> with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
> anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
> what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
> food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
> gross. Something to look into.

Messages in this topic (9)
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2f. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

I keep her food in the fridge in a ziplock bag.

Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
gross. Something to look into.

Andrea, thanks for the suggestion about putting the meat in a tub. Would a Tupperware
contain be what you are talking about? Thanks, Jackie

Messages in this topic (9)
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2g. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...>
wrote:
>
> How does it not bother her and how can she eat it and
> then NOT "get sick" with the food?

Hey Jackie,
All of your questions have been correctly answered by others but I
didn't see this addressed. Rotten meat doesn't bother a dog because
it won't harm them. Nature has endowed all species with the ability
to avoid things that will hurt them. Since rotten meat won't harm a
dog, it doesn't smell bad to them. Actually it smells better than
fresh meat. Rotten meat can kill a human so it smells bad to
humans. Another example would be poop. Eating poop can kill a
human but has no effect on a dog so it doesn't smell bad to a dog.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "patti.h310" patti.h310@yahoo.com patti.h310
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

--- Sorry....I should have included his stats!!! He is a very
energetic 3 yr old Bearded Collie thats about 50lbs.

Patti

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "patti.h310" <patti.h310@...> wrote:
>
> Does this sound like an alergy? I
> thought the rash would clear up once we were off dog food.

If he had the rash before going on raw and it has never gone away
since starting raw, I would think whatever he has is not food
related. Could be an allergy to something in his enviornment. Could
be an infection.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:19 pm ((PST))

>I think I read a post stating that pork gives "cannon butt" & loose stools, why is that?

Hi,Cyn.My Corgi did pretty good on pork.No runny poo at all.It may have helped that I started from lean Pork chop to start with.She did ok with Pork tongue or heart too.

I think it all depends on indivisual dog and how people feed as well if dog gets cannon butt or not. And maybe how much fat the cut of meat has and if dog can torelate the fat amount;lean pork chop against little fattier porkbutt,too.

If you feed dog who has never had pork the huge amount of porkbutt or picnic as their first meal,I think it is like waiting for loose poo if the dog did not have good torelance on it.

>if loose stools are "normal" w/the feeding of pork, how or when do I know that it has gone over the "normal" range?

I think that couple of days of loose poo to adjust to new protin source is I think normal range if food amount was not too big for dog to be introduced.During the adjustment time,you try combo meal or skin off the meat etc and it may help.Mine did not good on lamb tongue andI had to find how much Lamb tongue she can torelate.On the first round,she had torelance of just 1 oz and more than that cause runny poo,and after 2nd round,she can torelate 1.5oz.It iswith combo meal andI serve lamb tongue with chicken or pork or wahtever she does good on and, I think eventually,she can torelant lamb tongue only meal I think.

So,if your dog did not do good no matter how you try with foodamount or fat cut off or skin off etc,you can introduced it later andthat time,your dog may have better torelance.

Now and then, my dog hasrunnier poo after heart meal but I know that heart gives softer poo,so it is appropriate poo and I do not worry.

I worry if my dog gives runny poo all the time no matter what I feed,or how i feed.

yassy

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4.2. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cynthia iparraguirre <cyn7711@...>
wrote:
>...
> I think I read a post stating that pork gives "cannon butt" & loose
stools, why is that? ...

I wouldn't say such is the case, but I don't doubt it depends on the
dog's diet history (what they are used to), the amount of bone also
consumed, the source of the pork and so on.

My dogs had been eating a majority of fowl, with red meats and fish
when I could find them at reasonable prices (and sources). Then a
couple months ago a local organic farmer gave me a 600 lb bore that
was getting too much to handle. So now they have been eating a greater
majority of pork with fowl thrown in for bone content and they are
doing just fine. I even cut back on adding salmon oil for omega 3
because of the source of the pork. I do trim away most of the fat
which is a significant amount and pick up and discard the big bones
after a couple days. The big fellow isn't that enthused with the
pork, but he's just fussy. Both dogs are as healthy and active as ever.

Best to you and yours,
Lee C, Buddy Bear and Holly

Messages in this topic (38)
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4.3. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Free range hogs have red meat,
> just as free range poultry does.

Chris,
I THINK, but I'm not 100% sure, that even free ranging chickens would
have white meat wings and breast meat because they don't fly, therefor
never use those muscles. You MAY be right about wild turkey. I don't
know.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (38)
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5a. Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:20 pm ((PST))

I am so very excited. Today I found an Amish Pennsylvania Dutch market
not far from my home and I stocked up on lots of items for my Riley and
Molly. Boy are they going to eat well! I bought 2 whole rabbits, lamb
shanks (and these AREN'T smelly..LOL), HUGE hunks of beef and pork,
pork tongue, lamb kidney, beef heart, duck, 2 turkey necks and monster-
sized turkey legs. I spoke to the Amish butcher and he told me he
feeds his dogs raw too. He sold me a big bag of pork and beef
trimmings that I can use to round out some meals or add to very boney
meals and it was very cheap. He gave me his phone number and told me
to call in the morning the next time I am going to come in and he will
put aside lots of trimmings and parts for me. I'm excited because this
is the best variety I've been able to find to date and I got some
really big pieces which have been hard to find in my more traditional
supermarket. I'm really proud of myself for buying the rabbit. It is
a real stretch for me and brings me a bit out of my comfort zone...but
it is what's best for my little carnivores. The rabbits are not
completely in tact...they have been skinned, their heads removed and
their stomach and intestines cleaned out. But from what I could see
the heart and kidneys were still attached inside the belly. It should
be interesting!

I was wondering if anyone knows what the farming/feeding practices for
livestock are of the Amish? I'd suspect they are more in line with
what the smaller, more sustainable farmer does vs. the commercial
factory farmer, but wasn't completely sure. Also, I saw an item on the
list of available "parts" that I didn't recognize. What exactly is
beef sweet breads???

Nancy
in NJ
with Riley - 2yo
and Molly - 1yo

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- miensasis <kpmnlm@patmedia.net> wrote:

> What exactly is
> beef sweet breads???
>

Sweetbread is the thymus glands. Two of them:
skinnier one in the throat and bigger rounder one near
the heart They tend to disappear as an animal ages, so
it means it was a younger animal.

They're known as the ultimate organ meat.

Sweetbreads tend to be coveted by chefs for human
consumption, so it's kind of surpising it was in
there, except that they are pretty perishable.

tom

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6. Before I forget
Posted by: "everfade79" everfade79@yahoo.com everfade79
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:21 pm ((PST))

I wanted to thank everyone for the helpful info that has been giving
to me. I've been feeding my min pin raw for 3 weeks now and I will
NEVER go back to kibble. First off her skin allergy is gone now and
she has a gorgeous coat and any hair loss she experienced has stopped
and grown back. Secondly she has so much energy now she runs me
ragged! Also when it comes to meal time she is excited to eat and
actually eats when she is supposed to! She loves the new diet and I
love having a happier healthier dog. I am totally a believer and
advocate raw for everyones dog.
Thanks again
Fredo

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "Jacinta Loo" jacintaloo@gmail.com junglemonkey718
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

Hi Maxii,

Belgians shed like mad anyway, on raw or not. What I CAN tell you is
that now that I've been rawfeeding for 1.5 yrs, Summer's coat that
she grows in, grows in fuller and softer with a better coverage of
undercoat than before. She shed like a mutha too this past end of
summer. For about a mont and a half nonstop. I was sweeping up
Summer's mini-mes from under the couch, the bed, where have you, on a
daily basis.

It's extremely gratifying when people come up to pet her, and say, OH
she's SOOO soft!!!!! Softness isn't something you associated a
malinois coat with. :)

Jacinta

> i have a belgian sheepdog and we've been raw since September and a
> in the past month
> > > she has been shedding like crazy at first i thought it was
> normal because of the change
> > of
> > > season. Had her groomed twice to get all the undercoat out, but
> now i still have top coat
> > > all over my house?

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8. Diarrhea...Loose Stools
Posted by: "margo532001" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

My 9 # yorkie just had a loose stool, the first I have noticed today.
Yesterday she had tilipia. No other symptoms. Should I feed her normal
meal tonight? Tonight is chicken. I have some Slippery Elm Bark
capsules (370 mg).... should I give her this? If so, how much? She has
been on raw and done well for several months. This is unusual for her.
I dont think she has eaten anything outdoors. Any help is appreciated.
Marguerite

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> > > Maybe there is
> > > some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)
> >
> > No, I don't think they have enough intellegence to know what
> > nutrients their body is deficient in. Humans usually don't even
> > know that.
> >
> *****
What humans in their incredibly narrow sensory
> band "know" is of little relevance to what dogs are receptive to
> and "know".
> My guess is animals are more attuned to their needs than humans are, at
> least modern humans.
> Chris O

Of course, fruit is to dogs might just be as candy is to humans; and of course as any
human knows who's ever just wanted the crunch of something that comes out of a foil
bag, or the comforting softness of mashed potatoes or mac and cheese, sometimes it's
even just all about the texture. But, there might be something else going on there...

Though observations of animals healing themselves with natural remedies have been
documented as long ago as ancient Rome and China, contemporary animal behaviorists
are really only now starting to pay serious attention to this area of their work. There's a
really great fairly recent book called "Wild Health: How Animals Keep Themselves Well and
What We Can Learn from Them," (2002 Houghton Mifflin) by Cindy Engel, an animal
behaviorist based in England. It documents and discusses various self-medicating
practices wild animals all over the world use for prevention, cure and even recreational
highs. The bibliography is pretty extensive for more technical, focused reading. There's
loads of incidents that have been noted wherein all sorts of animals go to great length to
deliberately procure things that are absolutely not part of their preferred daily diet--
plants, animals, insects, and various substances--usually to eat, also sometimes to apply
externally. In many cultures, people have learned to use the same things for their own
healing by watching wild animals.

So many instincts and abilities of their wild ancestors are intact in some of our modern
dogs and cats, so who knows? Not just the fruit, but perhaps with the concrete-eating
dog, too. soils, clays, charcoal after forest fire, and termite mounds have routinely been
sought out by herbivores, omnivores and carnivores such as big cats, wolves, wild dogs
and other creatures, particularly to address parasite conditions.

Wolves are discussed in the Engel book primarily for grass-eating in the interest of
expelling roundworms (both as emetic and purgative) and while they haven't been
"officially" observed eating dirt, it is noted that their feces, like other carnivores, often
contain dirt, clay, sand and rocks, evidently ingested for mineral supplementation and/or
to mediate poisoning.

What was particularly interesting to me was that in the wild, so many animals in fact carry
both parasites and viruses--yet their immune systems seem to be so resilient that they
have no symptoms, and are effectively in excellent health. A very different paradigm than
what modern veterinary science and its focus on standardized laboratory analysis
conceives of as health.

I do recommend that Engel book highly, very interesting stuff!

Sarah, hominid
Henry & Ivan, felidae
Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae

Messages in this topic (18)
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10a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

I got a call from my grocery store the other day telling me that some
hamburger I bought was contaminated with E coli. Luckily, it's burger I
had bought to fill Kongs for the dogs - to keep them occupied during my
daughters B-day party! The dogs suffered NO ill effects from the
tainted burger filled kongs.

I'm sure they would tell you, though, that they were unfairly tormented
- tortured even - by being trapped in a bedroom while a dozen first
graders ran around with pizza, cheeseballs, cake, and ice-cream! We
humans can be such heathens to our pets!

Christine

costrowski75 wrote:
>
>
> "Lisa S." <acbrio@...> wrote:
> >
> > Some beef products from my raw buying group from a certain supplier
>
> > I have one of these products, some very meaty raw beef ribs. They
> > have been sitting in my freezer since the end of June (oops, I
> > ordered too many things), so that's about four months ago. Should I
> > be concerned about giving my dog these beef ribs ?
> *****
> I seriously doubt it. But if you can't get past the niggling fear,
> don't feed the ribs.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what other than the surface of ribs would be
> contaminated by e. coli? Seems like if the notion distresses you, you
> could just rinse them off before feeding. If one can "save" spinach by
> a good rinsing, I'd bet ribs are equally salvagable.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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11. Postrate problems
Posted by: "Tracey WAGC" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

Hi all,

I've attached a link to a short video of my raw fed Poodle pup and my sister in laws kibble fed 5 year old large sheltie.
A quick question my S.I.L (sis in law) took her sheltie to the vet, as he has been losing weight and drinking alot of water. The x-ray showed an enlarged and prolapsed postrate so she is having him neutered then 4 weeks after that he will get xrayed again because the vet said it could be cancer (but didnt want to put the cart before the horse). So I guess my question is, My poodle is not neutered and I dont plan on getting him neutered....So how do raw fed dogs compare with kibble fed dogs when it come to postrate problems? Anyone?

Also I have a wack of beef spleen, tongue, liver, that Ruger doesnt want to touch, how do I get him to eat it....... I slightly cook the liver or dehydrate it. he loves the dehydrated and tolerates the slightly cooked but doesnt want anything to do with the spleen or tougue.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2670634080607042230&pr=goog-sl

Tracey, Mom to very old Toy Poodle Pumkin and young Standard Poodle Ruger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Tompson <imscottish@...>
wrote:
>
> Perhaps we should take a moment to discuss the difference
> between factory farming ranching and the old fashioned farmer,
> THEN we can discuss grass fed cattle, organic, etc.

Kathy,
I read 3 of the 4 web pages you listed. I didn't read one of them
because they wanted my email address and I didn't want to give it.
ALL of these pages have an agenda. ALL tell untruths, half truths,
exagurations meant to mislead. I read a lot of things in all three
that are just plain wrong. I saw NOTHING that contradicts what I
just said in my previous post in this thread. Actually they
verified what I said.

I have been on factory farms and I've been on family farms. I have
owned cattle and my brother owns a 100 cows and bulls now. He also
owns 16 factory chicken houses. I'm not just talking off the top of
my head.

If we did away with the factory farms, millions of people would
starve to death. Family farms just can't raise the necessary volume
of food to feed the world. They are not nearly as efficient as the
factory farms.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12258

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Turkey Time
From: Casey Post

2a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
3.2. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
3.3. Re: Feeding Pork
From: carnesbill
3.4. Re: Feeding Pork
From: MORGAN LEWIS
3.5. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
3.6. Re: Feeding Pork
From: helpshelteranimals
3.7. Re: Feeding Pork
From: cynthia iparraguirre

4a. Re: slower maturity
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: MORGAN LEWIS

6.1. Re: prey model
From: Sandee Lee
6.2. Re: prey model
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
From: mutts_enough
8b. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
From: brutus_buckley

9a. weird poop and rash.....
From: patti.h310
9b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: Doguefan@aol.com

10. Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
From: Kathy Tompson

11a. Re: excessive shedding
From: great_dane_devotee

12a. Please explain this..
From: totaly_his
12b. Re: Please explain this..
From: Andrea

13a. 08/10/10
From: JustTom
13b. Re: 08/10/10
From: costrowski75

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Turkey Time
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))

> For those who have animals that are sensitive to enhanced meats, what
> symptoms occur? Apparently 'enhanced' means saline solution, but are
> there other chemicals going into the solution? Is that what causes the
> reaction? I would love to buy some whole turkeys for my dogs but don't
> want to put them at risk if this enhanced meat is dangerous.

Renee,

It is a sodium solution that generally has some kind of flavoring and/or
preservative thing going on. It varies slightly by product and producer, so
you'll have to read the ingredients carefully to find out exactly what's
been added.

The increased sodium alone can be enough to result in loose stools in some
animals. I can tell you that enhanced meats result in a yeast flare up in
my Lab boy...why that is, I do not know, but it is enough for me to avoid
them altogether.

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:35 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> > Maybe there is
> > some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)
>
> No, I don't think they have enough intellegence to know what
> nutrients their body is deficient in. Humans usually don't even
> know that.
>
*****
Oh Bill you are such a card.
Knowing is not necessarily about intelligence, and I suspect you "know"
that already. What humans in their incredibly narrow sensory
band "know" is of little relevance to what dogs are receptive to
and "know". In fact, what humans are potentially receptive to has
nothing to do with their "intelligence" either.

My guess is animals are more attuned to their needs than humans are, at
least modern humans.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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3.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:39 am ((PST))

"steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
>
> I know this sounds a little crazy, but once I fed each of my dogs an
> entire pork shoulder a piece! It lasted the whole week.
*****
Heck. This doesn't sound a little crazy, it sounds great! It sounds
like you have it figured out! It sounds like you trust your dogs and
your dogs merit your confidence. Way to go!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.2. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:18 am ((PST))

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
> hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat. Morgan
*****
Ah Morgan, the Pork Council loves you.

Pork is an ungulate. It is a "red" meat. What modern pork production
has done/can do is confine hogs so they don't use their muscles as much
and unused muscles are "while" meat. Free range hogs have red meat,
just as free range poultry does.

The Pork Council, in an attempt to catch up with chicken sales while
also changing how the consumer views pork, promotes the paler and
leaner body parts. Left to a hog's own devices, those parts would be
red also. As it is, the parts the Pork Council doesn't talk about are
still quite red.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.3. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...>
wrote:
>
> hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat.

Thats just a marketing plan by the pig farmers association. Pigs are
livestock. The meat of all livestock is considered red meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.4. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 11:12 am ((PST))

damn commercials, now i learned something. so I guess those Country hams, and sausages and bacon are not "so healthy" after all. Hum someone tell grand dad , that, he was 91 when he died. Of course he didn't know a damn thing about hormones, antibiotics, vitamin injections and such. God I miss the old farm and the great food. morgan

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
> hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat. Morgan
*****
Ah Morgan, the Pork Council loves you.

Chris O

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (35)
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3.5. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 12:15 pm ((PST))

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
so I guess those Country hams, and sausages and bacon are not "so
healthy" after all.
*****
This may or may not be the case but you never heard it from me. All I
said was the pork is a red meat.

Whatever conclusions you want to draw regarding injections and such are
your own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.6. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
What modern pork production
> has done/can do is confine hogs so they don't use their muscles as
much
> and unused muscles are "white" meat.
**********

Hmm...

Free range hogs have red meat,
Left to a hog's own devices, those parts would be
> red also.
>
> Chris O
********

Come to think of it, the wild boar I have fed in the past are VERY
red meat! Never thought about this.

AG, Ruffian, Kali, Moe, Miss Kitty

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.7. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:25 pm ((PST))

So now that we have clarified that pork is NOT a white meat...

I think I read a post stating that pork gives "cannon butt" & loose stools, why is that? and if loose stools are "normal" w/the feeding of pork, how or when do I know that it has gone over the "normal" range? (I hope my question makes sense).

Cyn

Follow This Link to visit my personal web page and help me in my efforts to support Autism Speaks.

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Messages in this topic (35)
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4a. Re: slower maturity
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:48 am ((PST))

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
>
> Many of the kibble manufactures went to a high Protein formula
several years ago for the Large Breed. This formula apparently
promoted maturity, but also led to major bone, joint problems (Pano).
*****
Going to higher protein is the very least the industry could do for
our protein- and fat-dependent carnivores. High protein levels do
not cause joint and long bone problems. Perhaps excessive calcium
does (and yes, the dogfood industry still overdoes calcium, just less
than it used to) and certainly excess weight is a contributing
factor, and for sure there is a high genetic aspect to the problem.
But it ain't about protein levels.

Shoot. Except for the ultra high end kibbles like EVO, most kibbles
remain to this day woefully under-protein'd.

Which fortunately for our wonderful dogs makes no never mind.
Feeding a species appropriate diet means never having to worry about
such artifice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:23 am ((PST))

> I have been told that even if you have a little mold growing on the
> surface of meat You can use vinegar to wipe it off and it will be
> fine. This was from an old timer talking about hanging venison and
> butchering on an as needed basis. Who by the way is very old and has
> been doing this a long time, so it hasn't killed him yet:-)
>
> My 2 cents,
> Krystal
*****
This is true; vinegar is good for very much of what ails us. It is
because we have available chemical cleaners that we use them, they're
not necessarily more effective than vinegar. A vinegar rinse would
work just fine; but I've found that even plain old water is an
adequate "flush" for meat going to the dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 11:12 am ((PST))

My, my honey child, where are you from, can not have "Country Ham" without mold. used to gross my college roommates out. Course never told them I washed it befor cooking, Morgan
costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
> I have been told that even if you have a little mold growing on the
> surface of meat You can use vinegar to wipe it off and it will be
> fine. This was from an old timer talking about hanging venison and
> butchering on an as needed basis. Who by the way is very old and has
> been doing this a long time, so it hasn't killed him yet:-)
>
> My 2 cents,
> Krystal
*****
This is true; vinegar is good for very much of what ails us. It is
because we have available chemical cleaners that we use them, they're
not necessarily more effective than vinegar. A vinegar rinse would
work just fine; but I've found that even plain old water is an
adequate "flush" for meat going to the dogs.
Chris O

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. Re: prey model
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:25 am ((PST))

Hi Deborah,

Domestication doesn't change anatomy or physiology....nor do our breeding
practices which have significantly changed the outside but not the inside!
:)

Dogs are carnivores and their dietary requirements have not changed. They
still don't have the ability to digest and properly utilize carbohydrates,
domestication or not!!

Read through the rawfeeding myths.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "deborah_flick" <drdflick@qwest.net>

Now another question. I understand the prey model of feeding is based on the
way wolves
feed in the wild and that our dogs regarless of size or breed are descended
from wolves.
However, according to some, those dogs that thousands of years ago became
"domesticated"
accomplished this by hanging around people and feeding from their
refuse--ancient
compost heaps I suppose--as well and eating prey. From this standpoint, dogs
are
scavangers, opportunistic eaters eating what they can find, ripe fruit at
the base of fruit trees,
as well as dead animals and other such. If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited
to a variety of raw
food including some vegetation and even grains? I'm curious to hear what
others think. I have
never heard this aspect of dogs evolution addressed in the context of raw
feeding.

Messages in this topic (40)
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6.2. Re: prey model
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deborah_flick" <drdflick@...>
wrote:
>
> If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited to a variety of raw
> food including some vegetation and even grains?

They would be except for the fact that dogs don't flat molar teeth
necessary for chewing vegetation nor are their intestines long
enough for them to extract nutrients from vegetation. Their
pancreas doesn't excrete enough of the proper enzymes to digest
vegetation. You see, domestication is behaviorial. Physical
changes in the digestive system just haven't occured.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (40)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:29 am ((PST))

There are several reasons for loose stools and they are not necessarily a
bad thing. What goes in reflects what comes out. When feeding raw, stools
are never going to be the same each day. Bony meals produce firmer, lighter
colored stools. Meaty, fatty meals and organs produce looser darker colored
stools. It's all OK! :)

What exactly are you feeding, how long, etc??? Give us some details to work
with!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "barrettsmadison" <barrettsark@verizon.net>

I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??
New to the group Jessica---

Messages in this topic (14)
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8a. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
Posted by: "mutts_enough" mutts_enough@yahoo.com mutts_enough
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:36 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> Sales on turkey are starting to pop up, but so far they are all
> enhanced. I have avoided feeding enhanced meat.

I've been scouring the frozen turkeys and so I've found Albertsons
have a natural variety in their Village Market birds. Currently they
have a sale on the enhanced ones - 39c lb if you buy $25 worth of
product - but they also have 59c lb for their natural ones, with $25
purchase. Both varieties are Village Market. The enhanced 39c per lb
are in the yellow wrapper and the natural, 59c per lb, are in the black
wrapper.

Hope this helps.

Barb

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

Thanks Barb, it does help a lot.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "patti.h310" patti.h310@yahoo.com patti.h310
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone....we've been feeding raw now for about 3 months. We have
meals of (mostly) chicken quarters, pork necks and ribs, beef, lamb,
and beef liver. Everything has been going great except he developed a
pimply rash on his groin and armpit area and his stools are 'normal and
firm' to start but then turn to a watery liquid. Before we started raw
we had a yeast problem in the same area and he never had solid stools.
One thing I have been doing is mixing the meats at meal time...like a
chicken leg with a pork neck bone. Does this sound like an alergy? I
thought the rash would clear up once we were off dog food.

Patti

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:34 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES

Hi Pattie.? How old is your dog?? I have french mastiffs, and I have often seen this in young dogs, and then they seem to grow out of it.? In particular, my female who is now almost one, had terrible skin under her arms and her neck when I got her at four months old...it was raw and bumpy.? This was in the spring, when allergies were at their worst...but once I switched to raw it went away in about two months.? Now she has NO signs of it at all.? I am not sure if it was spring allergies, or just puppy "stuff";but it seems to get better.? Now, the loose stool could be a sign of something else completely.? I would not guess they are related unless he is in fact allergic to something you are giving.? I am sure you will hear more on this from some of the "experts".? :)
Chels

-----Original Message-----
From: patti.h310 <patti.h310@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:50 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] weird poop and rash.....

Patti

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Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
Posted by: "Kathy Tompson" imscottish@sbcglobal.net imscottishtoo
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Perhaps we should take a moment to discuss the difference between factory farming ranching and the old fashioned farmer, THEN we can discuss grass fed cattle, organic, etc.

http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Factory-Farm-Peter-Rosset.htm

http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr/17/cattle1.htm

http://www.vsc.org/factory_farming.htm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_7920.cfm

Kathy

Carnesbill wrote:

ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months of
his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.

IF the chickens in the factory farm chicken houses can see the sky,
they can be called "free range".

There are many cattle farms around me and my brother raises cattle.
All of these farmers ... every single one of them ... when they get
ready to kill a cow for their own consumption will "put it up" in a
pen and feed it grain for a few months before

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:35 pm ((PST))

i have a belgian sheepdog and we've been raw since September and a in the past month
> > she has been shedding like crazy at first i thought it was normal because of the change
> of
> > season. Had her groomed twice to get all the undercoat out, but now i still have top coat
> > all over my house?

My flat coated retriever is doing the same thing. We've been on raw for about six-seven
weeks. I recently took her to her vet who supports raw and is treating her with Chinese herbs
for allergies. Since she's been on raw, the allergy issues have reduced themselves to only
ONE issue and he is happily expecting that she will actually be able to be a success story.

He says it is what happens to some dogs and it is temporary. I'm thinking she is just making
room for her beautiful new raw-fed coat. But it is a PAIN! I am vacuuming every day and
sometimes if the two dogs play after I've already vacuumed I have to do it again. The house
looks really bad with dog hair all over it. I can totally sympathize with you.

Libby

Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Please explain this..
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:38 pm ((PST))

I am new to rawfeeding. This is week 4 for me. Could someone please explain to me how you
can give a dog raw meat that smells bad and she eat it without any ill effects? I keep her food
in the fridge in a ziplock bag. After about day 4-5 the meat is slimey and smells nasty. How
does it not bother her and how can she eat it and then NOT "get sick" with the food? I'm just
very curious. Is there a certain amount of time that I should NOT give her that food? Can a
dog actually get sick if the food is too old? One other question: How long approximately
(being on this new raw diet) will it take for my girl to stop having the "runs" every time I
introduce a new meat protein or organ meat? Is this just something that will eventually work
itself out after she's been on it for awhile? Will it be months or maybe a year before she's
completely straightened out to the point that no matter what meat or organ I feed her she
won't always have runny bowel movements? I try to stick with the 80-10-10 ratio and I know
that I try to balance all that but when I feed her chicken for a couple of days and then give
her beef or pork I can just plan on her having the runs for a day or two. Is this normal?
Maybe I am doing something wrong. Thanks for your input. Jackie

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:16 pm ((PST))

> Could someone please explain to me how you can give a dog raw meat
> that smells bad and she eat it without any ill effects?

Dogs have stronger stomach acid than we do and they have very short
digestive tracks compared to us. The acid kills lots of bacteria,
and what doesn't get killed zips through the dog so quickly it
doesn't have time to set up a colony and make the dog sick.

> I keep her food in the fridge in a ziplock bag.

> Is there a certain amount of time that I should NOT give her that
> food? Can a dog actually get sick if the food is too old?

Not so far as I can tell.

> One other question: How long approximately (being on this new raw
> diet) will it take for my girl to stop having the "runs" every
> time I introduce a new meat protein or organ meat?

Well, soft stools are to be expected any time you feed boneless meat
or organ meals. Any time you introduce a new protein you should do
so slowly, but eventually she should become adjusted to her food and
what comes out should reflect what went in.

> when I feed her chicken for a couple of days and then give her beef
> or pork I can just plan on her having the runs for a day or two.

Are you throwing in a pork or beef meal randomly? When I introduce
new foods to my dogs I mix about half new food with half accepted
food for a couple of days and then give several days in a row of just
the new protein. By the end of those meals if I have well formed
stools I consider that protein in the bag.

That said, any time I feed a beef heart meal or pork shoulder I
expect to see less formed stools than a rabbit with bone meal. Does
that make sense?

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

13a. 08/10/10
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:24 pm ((PST))

Hi,

Started feeding about 3 weeks ago with some baby back pork ribs that were too "fragrant" to grill, and after no problems with those for a couple of weeks, went shopping and bought enough chicken quarters (leg/thigh) for another few weeks. Broth injected, but all they had.

Dog is 7or 8 year old lab/chow mix weighing in at 55 pounds. The chicken parts each weigh around 1.16 pounds. My calculator says 2% of 55 is 1.1, so I've been giving her one a day.

No issues, and I didn't really have any worries, about either diet or even the broth until I can find alternative. Bailey's a killer who brings me "gifts" from time to time, including a chomped baby possum last week, and each winter my yard is usually strewn with deer bones she scrounges from the hunters in the surrounding woods. She was a "house dog" when I got her, meaning I bought my house and she was hanging around and I let her stay. Speculate that the previous residents simply abandoned her and she managed to survive for as many as 6 months on her own, so I'm not as concerned with the level of detail as most on here. Squirrels and groundhogs show themselves at their own peril.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble there, but my question is about this 80-10-10 rule of thumb. I fed the ribs because I had them, and I am feeding the chicken parts because I wanted to make sure she wasn't going to have any issues, but I'm wondering when I should start adding the organ meat, since she likely doesn't need the slow approach?

And once I get going on a regular routine, what's the "spread" on the organ meat to make sure she gets it effectively? Is the 10% every week, or every couple of weeks, or a month, or just so I try to balance it out?

Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the organ needs, and if so, how often?

My intent is to eventually feed mainly whole rabbit, which I think is pretty much the complete food, but until then, I'd like to make sure she isn't lacking for anything.

thanks,
tom

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13b. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

JustTom <general.woundwort@...> wrote:>
> Anyway, sorry for the ramble there,
*****
But what a fine and fancy ramble it was. Any time, Tom, any time.

I'm wondering when I should start adding the organ meat, since she
likely doesn't need the slow approach?
*****
IMO, now is good.
Small amounts and added to the meals you know are successful; no
single-organ feasts quite yet. Besides, what happens when you
overfeed is loose stools, not the end of the earth. If you find
you've fed more than you meant to, back up and be more conservative
the second time.

> And once I get going on a regular routine, what's the "spread" on
the organ meat to make sure she gets it effectively?
*****
10% if you choose to go by the numbers, is 10%. Whether you figure
it by the meal or the day or by the week or any way, it's 10%.

If you feed a pound a day (let's say) 10% would be 1.6oz. By the
week that would be one pound x 7 days x 10%, or just over 11 ounces.
By the month that just under three pounds. Distribute it as you want.

I have no idea how much liver I feed: I forget to, then I add hunks
to several meals, then I let it ride again. I go for some time
without feeding kidney, but I have many pounds of beef spleen in the
freezer so I feed that at about the same rate as liver. Heart, since
it is a fed as muscle, I feed more frequently and in greater
amounts. Oh and yes, whole chickens include heart, liver, kidney and
wouldn't you know it--spleen. Gizzard is also not organ, it's muscle.

> Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the organ needs, and
if so, how often?
*****
Depends. A whole, unprocessed bird has lots more liver to offer than
storebought chicken does, so feeding storebought chicken will not
likely be enough, especially if fed from time to time. As much as I
am fairly remiss in maintaining liver/kidney in the menu, I do think
they should fed in amounts appropriate to prey animals.

> My intent is to eventually feed mainly whole rabbit, which I think
is pretty much the complete food,
*****
Well maybe. I'm a big fan of ruminants and ungulates myself; rabbits
rarely are long term meals for wolves and certainly can't sustain
entire packs. But if a lucky wolf comes across a slow bunny, the
bunny will almost certainly be some sort of meal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12257

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: krystal_brr

2a. Re: Not Eating - Depressed?
From: costrowski75

3a. ADMIN/Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
From: costrowski75

4.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
4.2. Re: Feeding Pork
From: steph.sorensen
4.3. Re: Feeding Pork
From: MORGAN LEWIS

5. Re: Organic vs non-organic
From: MORGAN LEWIS

6a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: Nataly A
6c. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: slower maturity
From: droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net
7b. Re: slower maturity
From: MORGAN LEWIS
7c. Re: slower maturity
From: Tina Berry

8. pat my dogs
From: jose

9a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: MORGAN LEWIS
9b. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: costrowski75
9d. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: HAPPY DOGS!!!
From: steph.sorensen

11.1. prey model
From: deborah_flick
11.2. Re: prey model
From: Tina Berry
11.3. Re: prey model
From: Casey Post

12a. Turkey Time
From: brutus_buckley
12b. Re: Turkey Time
From: Andrea

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:30 am ((PST))

"Lisa S." <acbrio@...> wrote:
>
> Some beef products from my raw buying group from a certain supplier

> I have one of these products, some very meaty raw beef ribs. They
> have been sitting in my freezer since the end of June (oops, I
> ordered too many things), so that's about four months ago. Should I
> be concerned about giving my dog these beef ribs ?
*****
I seriously doubt it. But if you can't get past the niggling fear,
don't feed the ribs.

Just out of curiosity, what other than the surface of ribs would be
contaminated by e. coli? Seems like if the notion distresses you, you
could just rinse them off before feeding. If one can "save" spinach by
a good rinsing, I'd bet ribs are equally salvagable.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:32 am ((PST))

> > I have one of these products, some very meaty raw beef ribs. They
> > have been sitting in my freezer since the end of June (oops, I
> > ordered too many things), so that's about four months ago. Should I
> > be concerned about giving my dog these beef ribs ?

> *****> Seems like if the notion distresses you, you
> could just rinse them off before feeding. If one can "save" spinach
by
> a good rinsing, I'd bet ribs are equally salvagable.
> Chris O
>

*****
I have been told that even if you have a little mold growing on the
surface of meat You can use vinegar to wipe it off and it will be
fine. This was from an old timer talking about hanging venison and
butchering on an as needed basis. Who by the way is very old and has
been doing this a long time, so it hasn't killed him yet:-)

My 2 cents,
Krystal

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Not Eating - Depressed?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:39 am ((PST))

"Me" <earthmoontide@...> wrote:
My maremma bitch hasn't been eating regularly for a little
> while now, and I'm after advice. She's 13 months old and has been
> brought up with chicken (flesh & bones) as her main diet, with
> different meat/bones/skin/organs regularly appearing on the menu.
>
> She appears happy most of the time, and has recently just undergone
> her first season with no male visitors. Every now and then I'll
> hear her 'sigh'.
*****
I'm not sure that dogs sigh longingly, so you might want to make sure
there's nothing amiss with her respiratory system, including lungs
and heart. Other than that, I vote for hormonal imbalance. Maybe
even a false pregnancy? You might try offering her especially
pleasing foods, as one would to a pregnant bitch.

> Any angry replies regarding my stance on immunisation need not
reply.
*****
Well, I can at least congratulate you for your wise decision?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. ADMIN/Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

This thread is over, done, finished. Any further conversation is not
acceptable. Take your conflicts private please.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (15)
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4.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:54 am ((PST))

"doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I thought I read somewhere in terms of nutritional values, it's last
on
> the list and not highly recommended.
*****
What list? Please provide references when you post provocative
comments. On the face of it, there is no reason to put pork last,
nutritionally.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (28)
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4.2. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

I know this sounds a little crazy, but once I fed each of my dogs an
entire pork shoulder a piece! It lasted the whole week. My husband
was really weirded out by the fact that they ate for about two days
straight and then I wouldn't feed them until the following week.
Sorry, but 9 lb pork shoulders go a long way!! I monitored their
behavior closely, and they didn't even care about food again until
about 7 days later!

In all honesty, I think my pit bull (Scarlet) buried hers and was
grazing on it all week. She likes to graze rather than stuff
herself. Lucy, my lab, is a stuffer.

Long story short, they love pork, and I love to feed it to them. :)
I don't feed it all the time though, because it is a fatty meat and
Lucy has the propensity for weight gain. I give them chicken, beef
and venison, along with some eggs, and they also get fish caps daily.

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> What, pork? Heck no, it's a great and cheap red meat. Between the
> choice of feeding mostly chicken or mostly pork, mostly pork wins
hands
> (or trotters) down.
>
> Andrea
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@> wrote:
> >
> > I thought I read somewhere in terms of nutritional values, it's
> > last on the list and not highly recommended.
>

Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________

4.3. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat. Morgan

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote: What, pork? Heck no, it's a great and cheap red meat. Between the
choice of feeding mostly chicken or mostly pork, mostly pork wins hands
(or trotters) down.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I thought I read somewhere in terms of nutritional values, it's
> last on the list and not highly recommended.

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________
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5. Re: Organic vs non-organic
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:28 am ((PST))

Gee this reminds me of some of my favorite GSD sites, I ought to fit right in. There are some smaller suppliers that do not use chemicals, antibiotics or hormones, period. They are more expensive, and probably worth it. God knows we put enough junk in our bodies. If you have ever been around some of these commercial chicken hatcheries, you would be amazed at the vitamins , antibiotics and hormones those animals are given.

From a practicle point of view, either source is a hell of a lot better than kibble. If you can find a great reliable source of chemical, hormone, antibiotic free meat and can afford the prices, go for it. If you can not, then do what you can. Neither effort is incorrect, and both are better than most of the dogs in the world will ever see. So pat yourself on the back. Morgan and his Angels

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Me" <earthmoontide@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, correct. After reading your blurb, I wished you hadn't
> responded. It reads as an uninformed, selfish blurb.

No, Catherine is absolutely correct. People are being duped into
buying more expensive food products by good marketing of the same
food.

> > I REFUSE to pay extra for "organic" or "free range" or "all
> > natural" or "cage free" meat. To me these are just gimics for
> > charging more for the same meat animals we already buy for
> > far less.
>
> They are not the same animals. Chemicals, or hormones added
> to feed change the quality of the animal that eats the feed.

Yes they are. You should look up the requirements for something to
be called "organic" or "free range" or "all natural". "Organic"
animals are given exactly the same chemicals as non-organic except
for the last month or so of it's life.

ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months of
his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.

IF the chickens in the factory farm chicken houses can see the sky,
they can be called "free range".

> Regardless of whether the animals currently in our food
> chain occur
> naturally, the status of 'organic' meat means (as I understand it)
> that there are no unnatural chemicals to be found in the flesh of
> that meat. Therefore, it's a healthier choice.

Technically there is none in their meat but it is not tested. THey
are given the same chemicals up until the last month or so of it's
life. "It's a healther choice" only if the chemicals given the
animal are harmful.

> If an animal cannot be free, I would rather it is kept in a fenced
> pasture with naturally occuring grass/food than keeping the poor
> creature contained with little opportunity for movement and
> fed from a man-made-unnaturally-occurring bucket.

You can rest easier. They are all kept in fenced pastures and eat
grass until the last few months of their lives.

> "Organically raised" meat means that they aren't given
> any unnatural medications or anti-biotics, so I really
> don't understand your complaint.

It means they aren't given any chemicals the last month or so of
their life.

> How you spend your money is your business. Trying to justify your
> economical choice by bagging an equally sensible chemically-free
> lifestyle is ridiculous.

Being duped into buying the same product at a higher product is what
is ridiculous. If you are an american and have grown up watching
television you should know by now that most products are not what
their advertising claims.

> > and folks that look down their snotty noses at people
> that choose to buy food that costs less even when they can
> afford to buy the more expensive meats need a reality check..
> or beaten severely about the head until some sense sinks in.

> It's really quite rude AND socially innappropriate to both bag
> somebody AND threaten them with beatings because they think
> differently from you.

I think it's funny. Where is your sense of humor? Catherine made
some very good points in her post.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Penny Sanford Fikes <penny@...>
wrote:
>
> *What are your thoughts on letting our pet dogs of this generation
> choose to eat fruits and vegetables that are in season?

I think its the same thing as me eating cake, ice cream, candy,
etc. In moderation these foods aren't harmful to your dog. The
important thing to remember is that because of your dog's digestive
system, they can't extract nutrients out of those foods. They just
pass through.

> Maybe there is
> some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)

No, I don't think they have enough intellegence to know what
nutrients their body is deficient in. Humans usually don't even
know that.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "Nataly A" rap_squad@yahoo.com rap_squad
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

As Andrea said, they crave the sugar. Fruits, being full of sugar and some of them very acidic, put alot of strain on a dog's digestive tract. they put the dogs in danger of kindney failure and other conditions.
My feeding strategy is giving my dogs the food they NEED. lucky for me, they enjoy their raw food very much.

Nat.

----- Original Message ----
From: Penny Sanford Fikes <penny@bluebonnetmagnolia.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 4:48:58 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?

*What are your thoughts on letting our pet dogs of this generation
choose to eat fruits and vegetables that are in season? Maybe there is
some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)

Penny in Mississippi
Four English Shepherds
Seven Rescued Westies

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Messages in this topic (16)
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6c. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

Penny Sanford Fikes <penny@...> wrote:
(We've had that stereotypical farm mentality that a filled out/edging
on
> the fat side.... cow, horse, pig, dog, etc.... is a sign of good
health
> and good stewardship.....so these collective experiences of dogs
eating
> farm fruit/vegetables was not driven by hunger.}
*****
I adore English Shepherds and hope to add one to the swirl of dogs I
live with, and if you are raising your ESs naturally (species
appropriate diet, no vax) then I should be talking to you off-list
about your dogs! I think it's awesome that you have been a farming
family for many generations. And I am envious of the wealth of
fruits and vegetables you have ready access to.

But eating fruits and vegetables is less about hunger and more about
sugar content. And regardless of how passionate your dogs are about
ravaging your gardens and orchards, they have no (as in none)
nutritional need for vegetation, and correspondingly no physiology to
process it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: slower maturity
Posted by: "droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net" droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net droghedabullmastiff
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

I have only been feeding raw for a few months so I can't say whether it will promote slower growth in large breed dogs. I have been breeding Mastiffs and Bullmastiffs for over 30 years and I have seen how slower to mature dogs seem to live longer with fewer health problems. I think genes have a lot to do with it also . The Bullmastiff stud that just sired my litter born Oct. 13 will be 9 years old on Dec. 1. He is my fourth generation of slow growing dogs. Jason is OFA certified hips and elbows as was each one of his bloodline I bred or owned. He was the runt of his litter and took 3 years to reach full growth. He is now at the top of the standard in height and weight and has never been ill or had any of the lameness problems so common in this breed. Rose_I__

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: slower maturity
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Many of the kibble manufactures went to a high Protein formula several years ago for the Large Breed. This formula apparently promoted maturity, but also led to major bone, joint problems (Pano). I have not had a case of Pano since switching to RAW. Morgan

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...>
wrote:
>
> I have been told by several large dog breeders that one benefit
> of raw is that, the dog will grow and mature slower in
> turn causing less joint problems. Is this true?

Generally speaking, yes. It is possible to overfeed a giant breed
puppy and cause joint problems on a raw diet but that is not common.

> Just wondering if she will catch up to her littermates and if
> the raw food was causing her to grow slower.

Genes will determine her eventual size more than anything else.

> Being a horse person I am all about slow maturity, but does
> it benefit the large breed dogs as well?

Yes

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (5)
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7c. Re: slower maturity
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

"I have been told by several large dog breeders that one benefit of raw is
that, the dog will grow and mature slower in turn causing less joint
problems. Is this true?"

Well, my big boy Baron, 95lbs +-; when he was 9 months old I think he was
around 85 lbs and everyone thought he was huge and was curious just how big
he was going to be - he never got pano, has very large bones, but seemed to
grow like a weed. At 9 weeks he was 20+ lbs.

His two puppies seemed to grow slower than him, again, no pano and the male
is large boned, the female is fairly large boned, they are now 18 months.
The still appeared to go thru the same growth spurts, but not as fast, over
like 2 months, no pano, but same ages around 6-9 months and then around
12-14 months - but slower growth spurts than if not on raw.

My prev gsds were never on puppy food in the first place and never got pano
either. This was 20 years ago when the percentages in puppy food were
probably way out of wack to what they are today; but my trainer recommended
in the 1980s no puppy food for gsd puppies because of the growth thing.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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8. pat my dogs
Posted by: "jose" jgacondor@yahoo.com jgacondor
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

http://www.uniteddogs.com/dog/lhou

here are my dogs...alll 5 of them!!!!sorry for the pictures!!! pat for
them plz>>>lolz

joseph of philippines

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Everything Bill said is true, so if your dog is constipated reverse #1 and #3 to adjust diet. This is especially helpful with PF dogs and probably others with intestinal problems. Morgan

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barrettsmadison"
<barrettsark@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??
> New to the group Jessica---

I assume you mean your dog is having loose stools. :) :) :)

Common causes of loose stools ...
1. Too little bone in the diet
2. Feeding too much volume in a meal early in the diet
3. Feeding too much organ or feeding organ too early in the diet
4. Feeding too much fat

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (13)
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9b. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:46 am ((PST))

"cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
>> I thought we were supposed to use the poop as a monitoring tool?
Too
> hard, or too much straining, aren't those indications of too much
bone.
*****
For some, hard poops may indicate too much bone; for others hard poops
are a sign that "enough" bone was fed. In both cases if what comes out
appropriately reflects what went in then the process is working
properly. It is our job as chief cook and bottle washer to determine
if that appropriate result is the one we want.

If your dog stops up with hard stools by all means add more meat to
mediate hard rock poops; there is little point to feeding beyond what
you know works best for your dog. If, on the other hand, you've been
trying to firm up your dog's stools, white rocks would be an indication
that you've finally gotten there.

Experience shows us what sort of meals work how. I think it is
shortsighted to fully ignore what stools can tell us; I also think it's
extreme to "read" more into the message than what's there.

Wouldn't I use that as an indication to
> not give a bony meal today?
*****
If you know from experience that difficult stools yesterday can be
mediated by a meaty meal today, then you should do that. What the
event would tell me though, is to feed more meat the next time I feed
bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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9c. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barrettsmadison" <barrettsark@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??
> New to the group Jessica---
*****
Not necessarily.
You could be feeding too much food.
You could be feeding too much fat.
You could be feeding too much new stuff.
Your dog could have gotten into something else entirely.

Certainly bone content is one thing you should be evaluating. It's not
hardly the only thing though.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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9d. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...>
wrote:
>
> I thought we were supposed to use the poop as a monitoring tool?

Yes, correct.

> Too hard, or too much straining, aren't those indications of
> too much bone.

I've never seen "too hard" poop. I say that white dry powdery poop
indicates too much bone. Small, hard, well formed poop is ideal in
my mind.

> Wouldn't I use that as an indication to
> not give a bony meal today?

Maybe, I've just never had a dog that did that. I have seen white
powdery poops indicating too much bone.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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10a. Re: HAPPY DOGS!!!
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Aw, that is so cool, Joe! I know I didn't have anything to do with
your success, but I love reading positive, uplifting posts like this!

Mine are the same way! They get SO EXCITED about their meals now!

Keep up the good work!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jose" <jgacondor@...> wrote:
>
> HI GUYZ!!!!THANKS FOR ALL THE RESPONSE...I LEARNED ALOT FROM THEM....
> I APPRECIATED ALL UR OPINIONS AND IDEAS!!!
> LALA, LARA, LANZ, LHOU, AND LONG ARE VERY HAPPY NOW ON THEIR RAW
> DIETS!!!!I LOVE THEM, IT IS VERY HARD FOR ME TO START BEFORE BUT NOW
I
> AM CONFIDENT TO FEED MY PETS( SHIH TZU, PITBULL, DAUSHUND, MEXICAN
> HAIRLESS/XOLOITZCUINTLI AND A MUTT, different breeds within a happy
> family!!!!lolz) ON RAW!!!! thanks guyz!!!!my pets are extending their
> paws and wag their tails for all your help!!!thanks again guyz!!!
> :) :) ;)
> joseph with a bunch of pets
> Philippines
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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11.1. prey model
Posted by: "deborah_flick" drdflick@qwest.net deborah_flick
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Hello all,

First, thank you for replies to my query about calcium:phosphorous! Most helpful.

Now another question. I understand the prey model of feeding is based on the way wolves
feed in the wild and that our dogs regarless of size or breed are descended from wolves.
However, according to some, those dogs that thousands of years ago became "domesticated"
accomplished this by hanging around people and feeding from their refuse--ancient
compost heaps I suppose--as well and eating prey. From this standpoint, dogs are
scavangers, opportunistic eaters eating what they can find, ripe fruit at the base of fruit trees,
as well as dead animals and other such. If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited to a variety of raw
food including some vegetation and even grains? I'm curious to hear what others think. I have
never heard this aspect of dogs evolution addressed in the context of raw feeding.

Thanks so much.
Deborah

Messages in this topic (38)
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11.2. Re: prey model
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:34 am ((PST))

"From this standpoint, dogs are scavangers, opportunistic eaters eating what
they can find, ripe fruit at the base of fruit trees, as well as dead
animals and other such. If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited to a variety of
raw food including some vegetation and even grains?"

Dogs can thrive on whatever they are being fed (including kibble) is this
ideal? No. You will find most on this list try to feed 100% prey model (red
meat being the most ideal) I feed primarily venison. And the 80 10 10 ratio
with meat, bones, organs is ideal for dogs. I do give an egg daily with
fishoil for my german shedders ;-)
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (38)
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11.3. Re: prey model
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:43 am ((PST))

> From this standpoint, dogs are
> scavangers, opportunistic eaters eating what they can find, ripe fruit at
> the base of fruit trees,
> as well as dead animals and other such.

Dogs are highly opportunistic, there's no doubt about that...it's part of
what makes them a successful species. But eating what you can find when you
cannot get your ideal diet and thriving on such items are two different
things...

Check out the raw myths -

http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

in particular -

http://rawfed.com/myths/changed.html

>>If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited to a variety of raw
> food including some vegetation and even grains? I'm curious to hear what
> others think. I have
> never heard this aspect of dogs evolution addressed in the context of raw
> feeding.

There are those here who would argue against the species-appropriateness of
grains for omnivores like humans, let alone carnivores like dogs! <g>
(discussion of human diet is strictly off topic, though).

Not to worry, you'll find LOTS of information about the evolution of dogs
regarding diet here!

Casey

Messages in this topic (38)
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12a. Turkey Time
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

Sales on turkey are starting to pop up, but so far they are all
enhanced. I have avoided feeding enhanced meat because I know from this
list that some animals do not tolerate it. I have even advised others
not to buy enhanced meat, but I realize I have been parroting this
information and don't actually know the specifics.

For those who have animals that are sensitive to enhanced meats, what
symptoms occur? Apparently 'enhanced' means saline solution, but are
there other chemicals going into the solution? Is that what causes the
reaction? I would love to buy some whole turkeys for my dogs but don't
want to put them at risk if this enhanced meat is dangerous.

-Renee W.

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12b. Re: Turkey Time
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:25 am ((PST))

Only one of my dogs has issues with poultry enhanced with broth. The
saline solution doesn't bother him as far as I can tell, but when he
eats something with a mystery broth he becomes really itchy.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:

> For those who have animals that are sensitive to enhanced meats,
> what symptoms occur? Apparently 'enhanced' means saline solution,
> but are there other chemicals going into the solution?

Messages in this topic (2)
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