Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 2, 2007

Sunday, September 2, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11990

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: Carol Wimmer
1b. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: tuggley
1d. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: tottime47
1e. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: Carol Wimmer

2.1. Re: liver
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2.2. Re: liver
From: Yasuko herron
2.3. Re: liver
From: costrowski75
2.4. Re: liver
From: costrowski75
2.5. Re: liver
From: Kaitlin Fraser
2.6. Re: liver
From: costrowski75

3a. poop situation
From: Linda Edgington
3b. Re: poop situation
From: tottime47
3c. Re: poop situation
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: poop situation
From: Giselle

4a. 1st time feeding raw
From: hd_peterson
4b. Re: 1st time feeding raw
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: 1st time feeding raw
From: esmolensky
4d. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
From: tottime47
4e. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
From: hd_peterson
4f. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
From: tottime47
4g. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
From: hd_peterson
4h. Re: 1st time feeding raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5a. Re: feeding organs
From: Michael Moore
5b. Re: feeding organs
From: tottime47

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Carol Wimmer" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 2:14 pm ((PDT))

I call all my guys "pups", but he is actually 7 years
old. I spent the night laying with him on the kitchen
floor and when his temp rose to 104.5 and he couldn't
hold down the smallest amount of water, I got him to
emergency. He is dehydrated and has pancreatitis.
They believe the pancreatitis was brought on by the
pork. The vet said she has seen many cases of this
due to pork. My other 2 dogs have also begun
vomiting, so pork has officially been taken off the
menu. 3 vomiting dogs + hubby who wants to go back
to kibble = very frustrated ME!!!

Carol
Rocky,Rex,Mack
--- mikkeny <mikken@neo.rr.com> wrote:

> > I'm worried
> > about dehydration at this point and am thinking I
> need to get to the emergency vet.
>
> Carol,
>
> I would not automatically assume that this is
> food-related.
> Puppy+repeated vomiting= vet trip, imo.
>
> You're right - dehydration is always a concern with
> the little guys.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Casey
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 2:33 pm ((PDT))

Carol,

You can rest assured that you did not cause this by feeding pork! Fat can
aggravate a diseased pancreas, it is not the cause

Your vet needs to start looking for causes of this disease so it can be
treated rather than blaming it on diet. Some of the things to consider as
causes.....vaccinations, certain drugs, insecticides, toxins and diseases
such as Cushing's, diabetes, hypothyroidism.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carol Wimmer" <my3jcs@yahoo.com>

> They believe the pancreatitis was brought on by the
> pork. The vet said she has seen many cases of this
> due to pork. My other 2 dogs have also begun
> vomiting, so pork has officially been taken off the
> menu.

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "tuggley" kim@redhotmama.com tuggley
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

how are the two dogs that did not go to emergency?

just to give you a different perspective. in my opinion good choice to
go to the vet. in cases of pancretitis a dog needs to have all water
and food withheld so the pancreatic enzymes can normalize. so unless,
you are capable of administering iv fluids and other supportive care a
vet clinic is needed. dogs who are not properly supported can die of
pancreatitis. also, an increasing temp is the body crying out for
help. if it does not get it, the brain can be damaged.

sounds to me like your intuition was right on.

as for the diet.....you will find the right combinations for your
pups....i hope you don't let this scare take you off the track.

kim

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Wimmer <my3jcs@...> wrote:
>
> I call all my guys "pups", but he is actually 7 years
> old. I spent the night laying with him on the kitchen
> floor and when his temp rose to 104.5 and he couldn't
> hold down the smallest amount of water, I got him to
> emergency. He is dehydrated and has pancreatitis.
> They believe the pancreatitis was brought on by the
> pork. The vet said she has seen many cases of this
> due to pork. My other 2 dogs have also begun
> vomiting, so pork has officially been taken off the
> menu. 3 vomiting dogs + hubby who wants to go back
> to kibble = very frustrated ME!!!
>
> Carol
> Rocky,Rex,Mack
> --- mikkeny <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> > > I'm worried
> > > about dehydration at this point and am thinking I
> > need to get to the emergency vet.
> >
> > Carol,
> >
> > I would not automatically assume that this is
> > food-related.
> > Puppy+repeated vomiting= vet trip, imo.
> >
> > You're right - dehydration is always a concern with
> > the little guys.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Casey
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Got a little couch potato?
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
>
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
>

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carol

I know it's easy to blame the pork and it may have very well been as
all 3 of your dogs are vomiting and it's easy to remember what you
last fed them.......

But you might look at a couple of other things. Had any of the dogs
been out anywhere
in the last couple of days where they might have picked up a virus
and brought it home?

Could someone come in for a visit that brought something in on their
shoes?

Have they been out playing where they could have gotten into
something?

There seems to be a lot of virus' going around this summer and lots
of stomach upsets.

I've heard of a lot of dogs here, that I suspect got to much pork for
that first meal and threw up or got diarrhea but other than your dog,
I haven't heard of one that got a temp that high, so I would suspect
something else is going on..........

I don't know if this is any help.....and hope they all feel better
quickly.........

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Wimmer <my3jcs@...> wrote:

but he is actually 7 years
> old. I spent the night laying with him on the kitchen
> floor and when his temp rose to 104.5 and he couldn't
> hold down the smallest amount of water, I got him to
> emergency. He is dehydrated and has pancreatitis.
> They believe the pancreatitis was brought on by the
> pork.
>
> Carol
> Rocky,Rex,Mack

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Carol Wimmer" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

They haven't been out anywhere. It's really hot, so
it's quick morning and evening playtimes in the yard,
then back inside. No one brought anything in and the
dogs just go in our yard where it is enclosed by a 6
foot wall, so they couldn't pick anything up there. I
have racked my brain trying to figure out what
happened. I gave small amts. of pork all week before
the bigger meal on Thurs. They handled the small amt.
with no problem. I did give Rex and Mack a couple of
bites of fresh pineapple the afternoon before Rex got
sick, so I thought maybe the acid had something to do
with the vomiting. I'm just afraid, now that Rex has
pancreatitis, he will have trouble with anything
fattier then chicken and turkey. I know with this
diet there needs to be variety. I found a great deal
on whole talapia and have 8 huge fish in my freezer,
so he better like fish!

Carol
Rocky,Rex,Mack

Had any of the dogs
been out anywhere
in the last couple of days where they might have
picked up a virus
and brought it home?
>
> Could someone come in for a visit that brought
> something in on their
> shoes?
>
> Have they been out playing where they could have
> gotten into
> something?
>
> I've heard of a lot of dogs here, that I suspect got
> to much pork for
> that first meal and threw up or got diarrhea but
> other than your dog,
> I haven't heard of one that got a temp that high, so
> I would suspect
> something else is going on.....
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Wimmer
> <my3jcs@...> wrote:
>
> but he is actually 7 years
> > old. I spent the night laying with him on the
> kitchen
> > floor and when his temp rose to 104.5 and he
> couldn't
> > hold down the smallest amount of water, I got him
> to
> > emergency. He is dehydrated and has pancreatitis.
>
> > They believe the pancreatitis was brought on by
> the
> > pork.
> >
> > Carol
> > Rocky,Rex,Mack
>
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 2:39 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/2/2007 1:16:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
fraserk7@hotmail.com writes:

Tripe? Can you tell me what that is? Cause hey I'll try it if it'll work!

Kaitlin,

More specifically, Green Tripe.. only available online or through specialized
processors. You can NOT buy it in a grocery store that sells human food in
the USA. check out these folks online:

Oma's Pride
Greentripe.com
Bravo
Haretoday
and i'm sure there are others.. those are the ones i can think of off the top
of my head.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (42)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: liver
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

>Tripe? Can you tell me what that is? Cause hey I'll try it if it'll work!

Hi. Tripe is..from cow and stinky,and read more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe

You may see white colored tripe but it is not wahtyou want.

What you want for dog is Green tripe. Unbleached one.

If you just started rawfeeding,you may want to wait a bit to try this way till dog gets digest other thing very well and then re-introduce the liver this way later though.

It is very nutrient rich stuff to give to dogs.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (42)
________________________________________________________________________

2.3. Re: liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

"Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
then he eats it fine( and
> hand fed) yes he's spoiled
*****
Unless he's dodderingly old, astonishingly young, seriously ill or the
sole source of a great deal of income, he would be better off not
spoiled. A spoiled dog in and of itself does not garner one bragging
rights.

At least now I know why you are making mealtime harder than it needs to
be!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (42)
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2.4. Re: liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:00 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> It is very nutrient rich stuff to give to dogs.
>
*****
I suspect its nutrient density depends on how it has been processed. A
highly-rinsed tripe will likely have less to offer than a product that
has been barely rinsed. And one that's come straight outta the cow
will have even more nutrients to offer.

Tripe is great, tripe is good, but it's not a magic food.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (42)
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2.5. Re: liver
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

He's my main show dog... so ya you could say he is of income... seeing as
main show dog typically means main stud and so forth down the road. He's
completely obedience trained... he has no socail problems... I see nothing
wrong with it.

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC PTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: "costrowski75" <Chriso75@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: liver
>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 00:40:40 -0000
>
>"Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
>then he eats it fine( and
> > hand fed) yes he's spoiled
>*****
>Unless he's dodderingly old, astonishingly young, seriously ill or the
>sole source of a great deal of income, he would be better off not
>spoiled. A spoiled dog in and of itself does not garner one bragging
>rights.
>
>At least now I know why you are making mealtime harder than it needs to
>be!
>Chris O
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (42)
________________________________________________________________________

2.6. Re: liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

"Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
I see nothing
> wrong with it.
*****
Then don't complain.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (42)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. poop situation
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

I think the poop situation is under control, finally. Giz seems to be having regular poops now, kinda soft yet but not sticking everywhere. I have been feeding rmb everyother day, just meat other days. Today they got another dot of liver. Yesterday I introduced beef and everything seemed to go well. I'm scared to death to try venison, which is what they are really going to have to like someday, cause I hunt and that is what I will be having the most of.

I am really limited in what I can feed, and most of it is chicken and pork. I live in the boonys and can't find alot of things, like lamb, goat etc. My problem is not getting Giz to eat, he will eat anything, it's just how it reacts. Is rabbit rich? I do have one in my freezer I could cut up for them. Giz 5.5# Sass 8 # (cat). How do I know what Sassy's ideal weight will be? She is one year old now. And still seems hungry so I have been giving her a bit more. I think I may actually get the hang of this. I think it's more getting *me* trained in than the animals.

Linda

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: poop situation
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Linda,

As the main meat in their diet, deer is great, much better than
chicken which is what to many have to use as their staple meat,
lol.....
My dogs love it and look forward to deer season and all the
goodies.....

I'm sure lots of us who get goat or lamb can't get deer, without
added expense, so you feed what you have and do the best you can
afford.

Since you're the one doing the hunting, keep everything,
lol.............you'll have some healthy dogs........

I don't know if your dogs will like rabbit, mine do, some
don't......mine especially love it given as a hunk with the fur on
it. They also love rabbit offal, one loves it too much, lol......

Rabbit is a really lean meat, not rich at all as is deer, so if you
can feed some pork & chicken now and then you'll be covering all the
bases..........

Hope this helps some......

Carol, Charkee & Moli (wild game, yeah!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...>
wrote:
I'm scared to death to try venison, which is what they are really
going to have to like someday, cause I hunt and that is what I will
be having the most of.
>
> I am really limited in what I can feed, and most of it is chicken
and pork.
Is rabbit rich?
>
Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: poop situation
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT))

Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...> wrote:
I'm scared to death to try venison, which is what they are really
going to have to like someday, cause I hunt and that is what I will
be having the most of.
*****
Venison is a fine and wonderful meat. Introduce it gradually and as
sensibly as you have worked through the other meats and you ought not
have a problem. It really is worth the effort.

Is rabbit rich?
*****
Rabbit is lean, pretty boring. A dog may not like it; a dog may
respond loosely to rabbit if the intro meal consists of heaps of the
stuff (as it would typically respond to a large amount of any new
meat), but there's no particular intensity to it.

How do I know what Sassy's ideal weight will be? She is one year
old now. And still seems hungry so I have been giving her a bit more.
*****
I fed my young cat the same amount I fed my adult cat and cut back a
bit when the youngster got to looking a bit more self-satisifed than
I thought she should. She loves her raw food and at three years
would still have you believe she hasn't eaten in days. I've found
that "big and complicated" works as well for her as it does my dogs
(although with different "big" and different "complicated" entirely.

I think it's more getting *me* trained in than the animals.
*****
LOL
Just realizing that is a huge step forward!
Chris o

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: poop situation
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
What about turkey? The holiday season will be coming up
sooner than you can blink, and if you get a bunch during the sale
times, it can help you to add a little more protein variety into the mix.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> I am really limited in what I can feed, and most of it is chicken
and pork. I live in the boonys and can't find a lot of things, like
lamb, goat etc.
<snip>
I think I may actually get the hang of this. I think it's more
getting *me* trained in than the animals.
>
> Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. 1st time feeding raw
Posted by: "hd_peterson" hd_peterson@yahoo.com hd_peterson
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

Hello, Thank you everyone for all of the good information provided
here. I have 7 dogs ranging in weight from 8 lbs to 80 lbs. Tonight
was thier first time eating raw. I bought some chicken leg quarters
and some chicken backs to feed them. All of my dogs loved it except
for one. He would not touch it and looked at me like I was crazy. I
even tried to cut it up into smaller pieces. Then I tried searing it.
He still would not eat it. What else can I do to make it more
appetizing for him. Thank you.

Heidi

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: 1st time feeding raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:14 pm ((PDT))

Heidi,

You can try warming it (in a baggie in warm water), slicing into the meat,
sprinkling with Parmesan. Anything to release or enhance the flavor as
chicken is quite bland compared to cooked or processed foods! If you have
kibble in the house, you might want to get rid of it. Some dogs will hold
out hoping for more of that good tasting stuff!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: 1st time feeding raw
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:16 pm ((PDT))

All of my dogs loved it except
> for one. He would not touch it and looked at me like I was crazy. I
> even tried to cut it up into smaller pieces. Then I tried searing
it.
> He still would not eat it. What else can I do to make it more
> appetizing for him. Thank you.

Try sprinkling a little parmesan cheese or a little garlic powder or
fresh garlic, also frozen might help.

E & Reagan

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi Heidi,

Can we get some more information? Which dog wouldn't eat? Older,
smaller?

Were all the dogs feed together? Did this dog eat anything earlier in
the day?

Has he had his teeth checked, good teeth? No ear infections?

Thanks,

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@...>
wrote:
I have 7 dogs ranging in weight from 8 lbs to 80 lbs. Tonight
> was thier first time. All of my dogs loved it except
> for one. He would not touch it and looked at me like I was crazy. I
> even tried to cut it up into smaller pieces. Then I tried searing
it.
> He still would not eat it. What else can I do to make it more
> appetizing for him. Thank you.
>
> Heidi

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
Posted by: "hd_peterson" hd_peterson@yahoo.com hd_peterson
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Heidi,
>
> Can we get some more information? Which dog wouldn't eat? Older,
> smaller?
> My one year old 65 lbs male golden retriever

> Were all the dogs feed together? Did this dog eat anything earlier
in
> the day?
No I put the smaller dogs in their crates, the german shepherd
outside and kept my two goldens in the kitchen. I did not feed them
anything since yesterday.
>
> Has he had his teeth checked, good teeth? No ear infections?
> His teeth are good, no ear infections, but a month ago he had a
bilateral femoral head ostetomy. He had severe hip dysplasia, was in
a lot of pain and was not a candidate for hip replacement.

Thank you again for any help.

Heidi
>
>
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@>
> wrote:
> I have 7 dogs ranging in weight from 8 lbs to 80 lbs. Tonight
> > was thier first time. All of my dogs loved it except
> > for one. He would not touch it and looked at me like I was
crazy. I
> > even tried to cut it up into smaller pieces. Then I tried
searing
> it.
> > He still would not eat it. What else can I do to make it more
> > appetizing for him. Thank you.
> >
> > Heidi
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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4f. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi Heidi,

He may still be in some pain from the surgery.....I took a quick
glance at a site that said there could still be pain after that
procedure......

It may just be a case of too many things to cope with to soon...

If he were mine I'd try some of the hints here on getting him to eat...

Cutting it up or adding something like cheese or searing in a little
butter......Maybe to get him to start it would be ok to hand feed him
smaller pieces......He may just not be up too standing long enough to
chew up new foods, yet......I don't know, maybe he's back to running
around with the others, lol?

Hope this helps some & good luck!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@...>
wrote:

> > His teeth are good, no ear infections, but a month ago he had a
> bilateral femoral head ostetomy. He had severe hip dysplasia, was in
> a lot of pain and was not a candidate for hip replacement.
>
> Thank you again for any help.
>
> Heidi
He would not touch it and looked at me like I was
> crazy.

Messages in this topic (8)
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4g. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
Posted by: "hd_peterson" hd_peterson@yahoo.com hd_peterson
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>Thank you for all of the information. I will try again tomorrow with
all of your ideas and let you know how it goes.

Heidi

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4h. Re: 1st time feeding raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:55 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/2/2007 4:07:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
hd_peterson@yahoo.com writes:

Then I tried searing it.
He still would not eat it. What else can I do to make it more
appetizing for him.

Heidi,

you can wait him out.. offer him the food at meal time and if he doesn't eat,
pick it up and put it away after 15 or 20 minutes.. no fuss, no muss.

don't feed him ANYTHING, no treats, nothing until his next meal time and
offer him a meal. If he still refuses to eat repeat this process until he decides
that it's food.

You are NOT starving him.. you are offering him food that he is refusing to
eat. If he doesn't eat in a few days try another type of meat, like pork or
turkey and have a real good look at his teeth to rule out a sore tooth keeping
him from eating.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: feeding organs
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

>>Organ should be given 10% of total daily intake.Out of the 10% should be liver andtheother 5% is either kidney or something else.<<

Well, I will tell you that I am much, much more casual about feeding organs!! I absolutely do not feed it every day, and IMO, that's way too rigid for my liking. I aim for "balance over time" with variety of meat, amount of organs, feeding times, etc. I feed liver and/or other organs, when I remember. It may be three days in a row, then not for a couple of weeks. It *might* be every day for a week, then not for a month. I'm honestly not convinced it *needs* to be a daily menu item. And the rawfed dogs here (six years and counting) don't seem to care, one way or the other.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: feeding organs
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi Anne,

You're a lady after my own heart, lol..If I had to feed on a rigid
amount, I'd never make it...

My little furballs eat when they start yapping and it's whatever is
thawed at the moment, lol.

Carol, Charkee & Moli ( Thank goodness mom's so relaxed)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michael Moore <m-tak@...> wrote:

> Well, I will tell you that I am much, much more casual about
feeding organs!! I absolutely do not feed it every day, and IMO,
that's way too rigid for my liking. I aim for "balance over time" with
variety of meat, amount of organs, feeding times, etc.
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden
rescue) in NW Ohio

Messages in this topic (10)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11989

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: dove taken with lead shot
From: Daisy Foxworth
1b. Re: dove taken with lead shot
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: dove taken with lead shot
From: jmwise80

2a. help finding resources
From: egold826
2b. Re: help finding resources
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: help finding resources
From: Giselle

3a. Fish causing nausea
From: musiquedelanuit
3b. Re: Fish causing nausea
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Fish causing nausea
From: musiquedelanuit

4a. Hello I am new here..cutting up food
From: Shannon Parker

5.1. liver
From: esmolensky
5.2. Re: liver
From: Yasuko herron
5.3. Re: liver
From: Kaitlin Fraser
5.4. Re: liver
From: costrowski75
5.5. Re: liver
From: costrowski75
5.6. Re: liver
From: tottime47
5.7. Re: liver
From: Kaitlin Fraser
5.8. Re: liver
From: Yasuko herron
5.9. Re: liver
From: esmolensky
5.10. Re: liver
From: emil smolensky
5.11. Re: liver
From: Kaitlin Fraser

6a. Re: New to the raw feeding+dairrhea and worms [ update ]
From: Andrea

7a. Re: feeding once or twice a day
From: redwinejoy

8a. Re: Having trouble with drumsticks
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
From: Jenny S

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: dove taken with lead shot
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))

>
> I have removed all the lead shot from the dove. Is there still any
> risk of lead poisoning from where the lead WAS in them?
>

No. The lead will not have leached from the shot into the muscle, or
wherever, because it requires a very highly acid environment. Like
what the shot would encounter in the stomach. Even there the
occasional shot probably won't cause much damage provided the shot
passes through immediately and does not stay lodged in the stomach.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: dove taken with lead shot
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

"jmwise80" <jmwise80@...> wrote:
>
> I have removed all the lead shot from the dove. Is there still any
> risk of lead poisoning from where the lead WAS in them? This is the
> first wild game that I am feeding that I have taken and wanted to
make
*****
Since lead, like other toxins, is not removed by freezing or cooking,
and since humans put in lots of effort to be able to eat wild doves,
I'd say what's good for the human in this case is good for the dog.

But I was under the impression that steel and other metals were
required or at least strongly encouraged for upland game. I know lead
is not allowed for waterfowl. Are you sure the shot is lead?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: dove taken with lead shot
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

> But I was under the impression that steel and other metals were
> required or at least strongly encouraged for upland game. I know
lead
> is not allowed for waterfowl. Are you sure the shot is lead?
> Chris O
>

http://www.agfc.com/hunting/waterfowl-migratory-birds/migratory-birds-
regulations.aspx

Some states require steel or alternative shot for all migratory
birds. It is only mandatory for waterfowl in most states.

I did use lead shot. I didn't cross my mind until I was done hunting.

After searching this subject thoroughly last night, I have decided to
use alternative shot ALL the time regardless of if it is mandatory or
not. I've just always used lead and never questioned what happened
with the shot after I left. Now I know, and don't want to have any
part of it.

Thanks for ya'lls help!

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. help finding resources
Posted by: "egold826" egold826@gmail.com egold826
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

howdy friends: i have recently moved to athens, ga with my grey and whippet, who i have
been feeding raw for years now. while i am familiar with many potential sources for
"affordable" raw food, there aren't many opportunities here, and the ones there are tend to be
more than i had planned on paying which is an issue since i am now back in school and on a
very very tight budget. in any event, i was wondering if anyone had any ideas, suggestions,
or knowledge of available resources to me. i make my own vegetable and protein mix for
breakfast, and there's plenty of access to that stuff. it's the meat and bone stuff that's tough.

any help/suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated. i hvae posted on the athens list,
but ther has been no life there at all.

thanks in advance

eric

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: help finding resources
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

> i was wondering if anyone had any ideas, suggestions, or knowledge of available >resources to me.

Hi. I think now and then, this topic appears and in the past,Lisa has made long list of what you can do to cost down to get meat such as craig list etc and was posted several times. I am sorry,I don't know the digest number but you can search archive.

Also,you can join in carnivior-suppliers list in yahoo group andyou can ask what you are looking for.

and,join in your local yahoo coop list or local rawfeeding yahoo group and they could help you better and point you to right directions.

Also,you look up web og Omas pride or Bravo and you can find destributors that carry plain meats and bone,organ as well.

Also,good idea to ask meat guy at local store.Sometimes,you get treasure.

> i make my own vegetable and protein mix for breakfast,

this also has been in topic quite sometimes,but dog does not need veggie or fruits;carb,but they need protin and fat most.

You may find why we don't offer carb to dog by searching archive as well. Really,rawfeeding does not require so much prep to feed.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: help finding resources
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:47 am ((PDT))

Hi,Eric!
You can save your doggie $$ by not buying veggies nor 'protein
mix' for your dog, he don't need 'em! Nor w'rec'k bones, if you now
buy 'em. Redirect your funds to buying plenty of meats, edible bone
and organs, and your money will be better spent.

This list supports a species appropriate whole raw prey model diet.
Why? Because dogs are not omnivores, dogs are carnivores. They are,
except for their outer wrappers, wolves. This means that we feed as
close to what wolves eat as we can. What that means for you is less
work; no grinding, no pulping, no mixing nor matching nor complicated
feeding schedules or supps.

Some of us can indeed feed whole prey. Others of us feed an
approximation: a variety of protein sources, body parts and organs
with edible bone. Frankenprey, if you will. ; )

Below I've posted "Lis' List", with plenty of ideas on how to
creatively and cheaply source raw for your dog.

"> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) You may be able to join a barter group.
4) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
10) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Samâ™s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) A great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, â˜cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
22) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
23) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) Speak to local farmers.
25) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
26) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis"

TC, post if you've got questions.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> howdy friends: i have recently moved to athens, ga with my grey and
whippet, who i have
> been feeding raw for years now.
snip>
i make my own vegetable and protein mix for
> breakfast, and there's plenty of access to that stuff. it's the meat
and bone stuff that's tough.
>
> any help/suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated. <snip>
> thanks in advance
>
> eric
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Fish causing nausea
Posted by: "musiquedelanuit" taylor.lhb@hotmail.com musiquedelanuit
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 8:51 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone,
Loki is almost 5 months and has been on a complete raw diet since he
came to me at 8 weeks. He is doing well, eating a basic diet of
chicken and pork with a frozen egg every few days and supplements of
frozen organs, mainly chicken hearts, kidneys, gizzards and liver (he
will ONLY eat them frozen).

This morning I decided to expand his protein sources and give him some
fish. There was a good deal on whole frozen mackerel so that's what I
got. To make it easier on his system I have him his normal meal of
chicken and added half a frozen fish (it was only a six inch fish in
total) at the same time. He seemed to really like the taste of the
fish but afterwards he started acting like he was going to vomit it
back up. Is this normal when introducing fish, or could he just be
intollerant to it? Should I continue feeding it?

Thanks!

Taylor and Loki
Montreal

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Fish causing nausea
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

"musiquedelanuit" <taylor.lhb@...> wrote:
He seemed to really like the taste of the
> fish but afterwards he started acting like he was going to vomit it
> back up. Is this normal when introducing fish, or could he just be
> intollerant to it? Should I continue feeding it?
*****
If he didn't vomit it up or run outside to desperately grab at grass,
and his stools were not remarkable, my assumption is intolerance was
not part of the event. I doubt nausea was a part of it as well. If
dogs need to jettison something bad, they do it. They have no social
mandate to "keep it down".

His reaction might have been to the iciness, or perhaps a frozen bit
got stuck (clearly temporarily), or maybe it wasn't the fish at all but
the chicken. Whatever protein, my guess is his behavior was a response
to a physical irritant and was not nausea.

Try thawing the fish next time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Fish causing nausea
Posted by: "musiquedelanuit" taylor.lhb@hotmail.com musiquedelanuit
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:57 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> Whatever protein, my guess is his behavior was a response
> to a physical irritant and was not nausea.
>
> Try thawing the fish next time.
> Chris O
>

I wasnt sure, my experience has been that with new foods he has a
tendency to refuse to eat them unless they are at least partially
frozen, but I'll try offering it to him thawed next time.

Thanks so much!

Taylor and Loki

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Hello I am new here..cutting up food
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

Catherine,

I accept 12 as old age because my dog is a senior. I respect your thoughts and opinions on this topic, but at the same time I know my dog...have had her 10 of her 12 years and am comfortable feeding her the way I feed her. Pardon me for pampering her a bit...but I don't mind doing it, and yes I still believe she's getting everything she needs out of each dining experience. Like I said, she's got gorgeous teeth, a beautiful coat...not to mention the regression of a nasal tumour which she had for 6 years before raw. I'm happy that your animals have remained healthy and happy into their old age without you having to cut up their food, I just chose to do things a bit differently.

Shannon

Morledzep@aol.com wrote:

why do you accept 12 as old age? I've got a 12 year old golden and an 11
year old pit bull with NO health issues, they eat their meals whole.

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Messages in this topic (21)
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5.1. liver
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

Hello,
exactly how much liver should be given. Once a week? every few days?
And how much? i gave my dog maybe 1oz chicken liver one day and a
little less the next day. He had a major accident in his crate, was
this because of the liver? for now he is eating chicken.
Can I give him hearts and gizzards everyday since it's muscle meat or
are they considered 10% of organs?
I know liver should be 5% of the diet, but the exact quantity is
puzzling me.

E & Reagan

Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.2. Re: liver
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

>exactly how much liver should be given. Once a week? every few days?

Hi. I know that too much liver cause loose/watery poo,and too much Vitamin A. and if you introduce organs too early before dog digest well,it also cause diarrhea/loose stool as well.

Organ should be given 10% of total daily intake.Out of the 10% should be liver andtheother 5% is either kidney or something else.

So,for example,my dog daily intake is about total 9oz if 2% daily intake.So,0.9oz is 10%.

Roughly 1oz is organ intake. So,if I do precisely,half ounce is liver and the other is about kidney etc.

I don't measure accurately and I just cut up small bits and give to my dog with meal. As long as not too big,that is ok.

When I first started feeding organ,I weighed and see how big is ounce,but I don't do that anymore.

I can show you how I am feeding organs/side dish along real meat meal.

Sun Turkey gizzard (technically considered muscle meat but I give as side dish)
Mon Chicken gizzard (same as above)
Tue Turkey heart (same as above)
Wed Chicken heart (same as above)
Thur Chicken liver (1 thumb nail size or little bigger but not too much)
Fri Beef liver(thumb nail size)+Beef Kidney (thumb nail size)
Sat Pork liver (same as above)+Pork Kidney(same as above)

So,this is just me but my dog gets 3 days out of 7 days. I can give liver daily with small amount but I like to alternate with Turkey Chicken Beef Pork,it ended up just like that.

> i gave my dog maybe 1oz chicken liver one day and a little less the next day. He had a >major accident in his crate, was this because of the liver?

Question is that when did you start rawfeeding? If you are giving organs too soon before thedog gets used to chicken meat,then,it is possible that introducing organ was way too early.

If you were on 1st week for example, hold off the chicken liver and,wait till your dog digest well and then,if you like, try feeding chicken still,and then give just a smidge and increase theamount gradually to the dog's liver amount.

>Can I give him hearts and gizzards everyday since it's muscle meat

Yes,it is considered as boneless meat group.Not organs. So,you can feed more than organ amount.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.3. Re: liver
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

I don't know about others... but I wouldn't recommend feeding just liver,
organs are a much wider range and don't just use one type of meat. Dogs need
10 fatty acids... that don't just some from chicken. Dogs need a range of
different meats. For organs,I( me myself and I) feed liver, heart, and
kidneys.... Thus spreading out the type of organs. I think I had it worked
out that my dog gets organs one and a half times a week. But that's what
works for my dogs... For me organ day is the hardest of all days,...
yesturday was liver day and my little girl is the only one who likes it.

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: "esmolensky" <esmolensky@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] liver
>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:07:24 -0000
>
>Hello,
>exactly how much liver should be given. Once a week? every few days?
>And how much? i gave my dog maybe 1oz chicken liver one day and a
>little less the next day. He had a major accident in his crate, was
>this because of the liver? for now he is eating chicken.
>Can I give him hearts and gizzards everyday since it's muscle meat or
>are they considered 10% of organs?
>I know liver should be 5% of the diet, but the exact quantity is
>puzzling me.
>
>E & Reagan
>

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Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.4. Re: liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:01 am ((PDT))

"esmolensky" <esmolensky@...> wrote:
>> exactly how much liver should be given. Once a week? every few days?
> And how much?
*****
This is one of those topics that the list archive is made for. If you
have not discovered the them (accessible at the rawfeeding list webpage
on Yahoogroups) you should introduce yourself. "Liver" is but one of
many easily researched subjects.

Liver can be fed to the tune of 3%-5% of the diet. If you are feeding
by dog's weight, then liver can be 3%-5% of what you consider an
appropriate amount of food for your dog. For example, if you are
feeding one pound (16 ounces) a day, you might feed 3/4 of an ounce of
liver a day. Across the span of a week, you might want to feed five or
so ounces of liver. However you decide to distribute it.

If you are feeding by guess by golly and don't know how much you feed
(which is quite fine indeed!) then feed "some". Don't let "some" get
to be a big part of the menu but don't entirely forget to feed it.

No one can give you an exact amount if for no other reason than you
have not given us enough information. Additionally, a dog's needs are
not met by unchanging amounts of food. What works hunky dory one week
may be too much or not enough a few weeks later. "Exactly" is not a
realistic guideline.

i gave my dog maybe 1oz chicken liver one day and a
> little less the next day. He had a major accident in his crate, was
> this because of the liver?
*****
Could be. Could be too much food over all. Could be something else
entirely. The only way to tell is to skip the liver and see if the
stools settle down. For a small dog one ounce of liver might be a big
deal; for a giant breed one ounce of liver oughtn't be much of an issue.

> Can I give him hearts and gizzards everyday since it's muscle meat or
> are they considered 10% of organs?
*****
Heart and gizzard can be included in the "80%" meat part of the diet.

Organ or not, too much heart is also likely to produce loose stools
(which are not generally "bad" but can be quite inconvenient for the
human). I recommend you ease your dog into heart-heavy meals.

I see no reason to feed heart and gizzards every day but there's
nothing "wrong" with it other than the combo is a very limited menu.
You should be working to feed all parts of the chicken.

Questions:
What size dog are you feeding?
How much are you feeding?
What are you feeding?
For how long?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.5. Re: liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:13 am ((PDT))

"Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
> For me organ day is the hardest of all days,...
> yesturday was liver day and my little girl is the only one who likes
it.
*****
By designating a specific "organ day" you are making it way harder than
meal time/planning needs to be. There is little reason to have an
organs-only meal. I don't blame your dogs for not getting all excited
about an all-liver meal and I LIKE liver!

I recommend you quit having a designated organ day and start adding
them to the other meals. It's easy to disguise undesirable organs and
you certainly reduce the opportunity for jet powered stools.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.6. Re: liver
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

Hi E & Reagan,

When you buy a whole chicken and there is a packet with the liver,
gizzards & heart inside, that is what is a good judge on how much
liver to feed and how often..........

The liver in ratio to the whole chicken......

I use this in giving liver to my dogs.....If I feed an amount of meat
equal to a whole chicken then I know it's time for some liver, lol. I
try to do this with the other organs too, but it doesn't always work
out that way..

I have one dog that loves organs and I realized I was feeding him way
to many, he never had any diarreah from them but his stools were
pudding soft............

Because I have smaller dogs and can't feed through a whole cow, well
I could eventually
but if I did try it they'd never get other proteins in their diet, so
I just ratio the organs I feed
to the amount of meat in a whole chicken or other small prey like a
rabbit..........

I hope this makes sense and hopefully it's the right way for me to
go about it..........

The liver could have been the reason for the crate accident as it
does go through faster, lol. Maybe plan on giving it when you can be
around to take him out for that important potty break?

Hope this helped.....

Carol, Charkee ( I love offal! ) Moli ( I love tripe! )

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "esmolensky" <esmolensky@...>
wrote:
> exactly how much liver should be given. Once a week? every few days?
> And how much?
He had a major accident in his crate, was
> this because of the liver?
> E & Reagan

Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.7. Re: liver
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:27 am ((PDT))

I have tried that... it made him not eat the rest of his meal cause he smelt
the liver... this is the pickest dog I have ever owned... all my other dogs
love their food... him... he eats if he's in the mood for it or if you let
one of the other dogs close enough he thinks they may take it.

Malo just hates liver.... cooked liver he likes... raw liver... nope...
unless it's chopped up into bite size pieces... then he eats it fine( and
hand fed) yes he's spoiled

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>
>

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Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.8. Re: liver
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:45 am ((PDT))

>Malo just hates liver.... cooked liver he likes... raw liver... nope...unless it's chopped up into >bite size pieces... then he eats it fine( and hand fed) yes he's spoiled

Hi,did you try mix with tripe? I read couple of times on this listthat some people suceeded by mixing it with wahtever dog never eat on its own.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.9. Re: liver
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

---
>
> Questions:
> What size dog are you feeding?
He's about 85# for now, he's a 7mos. puppy. he'll be around 130-200#.
>
How much are you feeding?
I usually buy 8# whole fryers. I cut it in 4ths. Give 1/2 half in the
morning and the other half in the evening.
>
What are you feeding?
mostly straight chicken for now
>
For how long?
Starting tomorrow will be the 3rd week.

As soon as I can find some cheaper pork or other meat I will start to
feed him that.

he had the accident the next day, maybe that I think about it now, he
was in his crate for 8hrs. I couldn't get out of work to walk him.
But he had no issues when I fed him liver the previous day in the
afternoon.

E & Reagan
>

Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________

5.10. Re: liver
Posted by: "emil smolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

----- Original Message ----
From: Kaitlin Fraser <fraserk7@hotmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 12:53:19 PM
Subject: RE: [rawfeeding] liver

I fed him liver with the chicken. It came with it. I don't think he can handle 4# of just liver!

E & Reagan
>

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Messages in this topic (36)
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5.11. Re: liver
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

Tripe? Can you tell me what that is? Cause hey I'll try it if it'll work!

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [rawfeeding] Re: liver
>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >Malo just hates liver.... cooked liver he likes... raw liver...
>nope...unless it's chopped up into >bite size pieces... then he eats it
>fine( and hand fed) yes he's spoiled
>
>Hi,did you try mix with tripe? I read couple of times on this listthat some
>people suceeded by mixing it with wahtever dog never eat on its own.
>
> yassy
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
>Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo!
>Games.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: New to the raw feeding+dairrhea and worms [ update ]
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

My suggestion would be to get whole chickens and cut them into quarters so that the
back is divided into the four pieces. The back could be too bony for the pup (thus
resulting in the bile bone bit vomit) and the breast quarter could be too meaty (resulting
in the liquid poos). If you feed both leg quarter and a breast quarter throughout the day
the pup should be ok.

You could also work in another leg quarter (though three leg quarters a day sounds like an
awful lot of food for a Vizla pup) so that he's eating more food. I seem to remember that
you are taking off the skin and fat from the chicken, which could also be contributing to
the weight loss. Now that you have the loose stool and bone bit vomit under controll it's
time to start adding things (like breast quarters or fat) back in so that the pup is getting
all of the bird. Choose either the skin/fat or the breast quarters to add slowly into his diet
and see what happens. Keep us updated.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ferrarious" <ferrarious@...> wrote:

> I found out that every time he eats chicken buddy ( the back and the
> chest ) he starts to throw up and diarrhea so I started to give him
> only chicken quarters ( legs and thighs ), he eats two quarters a day
> divided to 4 meals. But there is a problem, he lost 500 gr from the
> moment we started raw feeding but what more scares me is that he
> looks skinny, the ribs are stuck out and the back above the belly is
> very thin

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: feeding once or twice a day
Posted by: "redwinejoy" redwine1@windstream.net redwinejoy
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Olga" <olga.drozd@...> wrote:
>
> I think once a day might be worth a try. The one thing I would
> suggest is to try milder proteins like turkey and pork before you add
> lamb, beef or fish. Also, add small amounts of the new protein to a
> familiar meal since he's already shown his tummy isn't good with
> sudden changes. If all goes well, increase the amount of the new
> protein after.
>
Thanks, Olga: I will try to introduce smaller amounts in the future. I had given him some
small bits of lamb before with not a problem but who knows? He still seems disinterested in
a large piece of chicken. He has eaten little bits I have pulled off and handed him. What is
the longest time you guys would feel comfortable standing your ground as far as not starting
to do anything special to try to entice him to eat? He seems like he feels fine. Joy

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Having trouble with drumsticks
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:48 am ((PDT))

>So far she's had three drumsticks, so she is still very new. I had been feeding her natures >variety and primal so she's used to ground up meat.

Hi,Kellie. If you think that your dogs teeth is perfectly fine and no prob and just having issue with getting her interested in chicken, try ..

1> sear the chicken couple ofseconds just enough to smell good. smell may entice dog to eat it without any prob. and, if plain searing did not help,try quick sear but with garlic added. Sometimes,flavoring helps too.

2> If you were feeding cold,try put themeat in zip bag and put it in warm water and,bring up meat temp to smell good

3> if your dog being fed room tep meat and searing would not work,then try partially frozen.It may help. some dogs like frozen,I read in this list

>Right now though, I just gave her a turkey neck bone and she is still eating away at it with >no problems.

Well, I usually think better to stick to one protin a while till dog digest well,but if your dog seemed to be interested in Turkey than chicken, why not start from Turkey then?

Just Turkey. Feeding is same. Buy a whole Turkey and cut up to appropriate size and feed it.

After you think that Turkey is well digested by your dog, either you go back to chicken with above feeding tricks OR go to the other protins more and back to chicken.

Then see if she still does not like chicken. As long as you feed variety of protins,diet is ok.
So,I am guessing that some dogs may not have chicken in menu.

Good Luck

yassy

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Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
Posted by: "Jenny S" jenken69@shaw.ca jenken69
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

we have no prob keeping our white dog white .she eats not to messy (she is a very neet eater ) and then she cleans herself on the carpet lol...and no she dossent leave any mess on the carpet .... Check my you tube video doggy napkin ...heehee..
Jenny S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMJXz3AvKI (doggy napkin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34YjdBCu8I( Fun in the pool) way to funny..

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11988

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Mocha's Passing
From: Jacqueline Miller
1b. Re: Mocha's Passing
From: emil smolensky

2. greetings and long post sorry.
From: T. S.

3. ADMIN: condolences
From: GWB

4a. Re: Hello I am new here..cutting up food
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5a. Re: Who on this list has been feeding RAW for many years?
From: Olga

6a. Re: feeding once or twice a day
From: Olga

7. dove taken with lead shot
From: jmwise80

8a. Re: Grinding Tripe
From: blue eyed

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Mocha's Passing
Posted by: "Jacqueline Miller" beaulincolnsmine@yahoo.com beaulincolnsmine
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

My heart goes out to you. I felt your heartbreak and
cried with you. I lost a beloved dog a few years ago
to seizures and it is not any easy thing. God bless
you all and give you comfort and peace.
Jackie and the Hoodlums

--- beaulah_2001us <beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> 9.1.2007 This is a letter to cover everyone
> personal, close, yahoo
> groups etc.
>
> To those who know of Mocha and her fight with
> Insulinoma Cancer. Mocha
> put up a terrific fight against this cancer. She
> tried her hardest to
> heal as much as possible and be here as long as
> possible. Her fight
> ended Wednesday night of this last week. She is now
> off playing with
> Grace our other beloved dog of many years.
>
> Mocha went into waves of grand maul seizures on
> Wednesday that lasted
> for several hours. With every seizure we saw less
> and less of Mocha and
> knew in the end that if we did save her, she would
> not really be there
> anymore. Looking into Mocha's eyes we felt she was
> telling us it was
> time to let her go. So we stayed with her before,
> during and after she
> left. We told her how much we all loved her and
> thanked her for being
> with us. She was a great companion and friend to all
> of us.
>
> Even though our daughter has moved back home just
> yesterday with her
> cats, it is still an empty, lonely, quiet home to be
> in. Some day we
> will have another dog in our lives but for now we
> will listen to them
> quietly as they come and visit us in their new
> lives. We do not just
> want to replace those we love with another baby, but
> wait for the right
> time and baby to come along.
>
> Mocha loved many people and she sends her love to
> all. To the Yahoo dog
> groups that I belong to I have enjoyed the groups. I
> did not get to
> participate in the last weeks with mocha's illness
> and moving the
> kids back home, taking cats to vet, canning etc. But
> I did try to read
> most of the posts in each group. For now if no one
> minds I would like to
> just stay with some of the groups and yes more as a
> lurker than a
> participator, at least for awhile during which time
> we will be thinking
> of another dog. Can people share their knowledge of
> what breeds are
> 30-50 lbs and the personalities of the breed?
>
> We want to take time to heal before getting another
> dog. We may end up
> not even getting what we think we want. But at least
> it will give us
> time to heal and be able to look forward to a new
> furbaby.
>
> To my other yahoo groups this is basically an update
> as to what has gone
> on of late and I will try to be more active in time.
>
> Thank you all so much for the help we received and
> the caring and loving
> thoughts.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Mocha's Passing
Posted by: "emil smolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 5:46 pm ((PDT))

Sandy,
very sorry for your loss. How old was Mocha?
Checkout dogbreedinfo.com they have hundreds of diffrent dog breed info to find yourself a dog you'd like in that weight category. I found my dog this way.
E & Reagan

----- Original Message ----
From: beaulah_2001us <beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2007 8:04:24 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Mocha's Passing

9.1.2007 This is a letter to cover everyone personal, close, yahoo
groups etc.

To those who know of Mocha and her fight with Insulinoma Cancer. Mocha
put up a terrific fight against this cancer. She tried her hardest to
heal as much as possible and be here as long as possible. Her fight
ended Wednesday night of this last week. She is now off playing with
Grace our other beloved dog of many years.

Mocha went into waves of grand maul seizures on Wednesday that lasted
for several hours. With every seizure we saw less and less of Mocha and
knew in the end that if we did save her, she would not really be there
anymore. Looking into Mocha's eyes we felt she was telling us it was
time to let her go. So we stayed with her before, during and after she
left. We told her how much we all loved her and thanked her for being
with us. She was a great companion and friend to all of us.

Even though our daughter has moved back home just yesterday with her
cats, it is still an empty, lonely, quiet home to be in. Some day we
will have another dog in our lives but for now we will listen to them
quietly as they come and visit us in their new lives. We do not just
want to replace those we love with another baby, but wait for the right
time and baby to come along.

Mocha loved many people and she sends her love to all. To the Yahoo dog
groups that I belong to I have enjoyed the groups. I did not get to
participate in the last weeks with mocha's illness and moving the
kids back home, taking cats to vet, canning etc. But I did try to read
most of the posts in each group. For now if no one minds I would like to
just stay with some of the groups and yes more as a lurker than a
participator, at least for awhile during which time we will be thinking
of another dog. Can people share their knowledge of what breeds are
30-50 lbs and the personalities of the breed?

We want to take time to heal before getting another dog. We may end up
not even getting what we think we want. But at least it will give us
time to heal and be able to look forward to a new furbaby.

To my other yahoo groups this is basically an update as to what has gone
on of late and I will try to be more active in time.

Thank you all so much for the help we received and the caring and loving
thoughts.

Sandy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. greetings and long post sorry.
Posted by: "T. S." JoeTheLion1@yahoo.com joethelion1
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT))

i am new to the group. i have a 1 year old rescue/stray
shepherd/collie mix, she is spayed and has been on kibble since i've
taken her in. she's been doing well on kibble, but i have been
thinking about switching her mostly because it is so difficult these
days to trust kibble.

i do believe there are innumerable benefits to feeding a raw/cooked
diet however, i have two concerns: 1) will she experience stomach
issues (i.e. bowl problems) and other mood issues, and if so, how long
will this transition take? 2) how can i provide her the added
vitamins and nutrients without buying store bought products, by this i
mean i would like to find ways in which i can use all natural yogurts,
bragg apple cider vinegar, and broths made from veggies and chicken
livers. i currently use these things with her now, but i don't know
how much she actually needs. her weight is approx. 25kg. i am not a
chemist so i don't really know how to get her the proper amounts.

based on her size according to the label on kibble she should be
getting near 2 cups of food, however, she doesn't eat that much and i
don't force her to eat more if she doesn't want to. so i figured she
isn't getting the full value of the 2 cups per day so i supplemented
her with home cooked brown rice and broths (i add no spices) made
from free range, no hormone chicken livers, all natural yogurt and all
natural home made cheese etc. doing this has made her stools often
too loose and ranging in colors of yellow and green.

anyway, those are my concerns for her. i am just starting to take in
information before i make the switch.

t.s.
ensenada, mexico

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. ADMIN: condolences
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika48@comcast.net kioqua
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT))

A couple of mails were put through but PLEASE send your sympathies
private!!

Please and thank you,

Gerry Brierley-mod guy

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Hello I am new here..cutting up food
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 6:40 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/1/2007 6:12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mrbatisse@yahoo.ca writes:

Yeah, you're probably right. But at 12, I figure she's earned the right to
get her food the way she wants it. Her teeth are lovely, and she is just a
really happy dog. I think if she was only 2 I'd have put a stop to it....but
she's my baby and I don't mind catering to her a bit in her old age.

Shannon,

why do you accept 12 as old age? I've got a 12 year old golden and an 11
year old pit bull with NO health issues, they eat their meals whole.

We just lost our 18 year old Saarloos wolfdog in June of last year at 18
years old, he had severe arthritis and the last 2 months of his life he was
starting to have some trouble breathing and had a tumor on his back. But if my
step-daughter walked into the room or his yard he would still perk up and run
around like a puppy.

I accept that Jerry Lee was getting old for a dog, but when he was 12 (which
is approximately how old he was when i met him), he was young and strong and
handsome, just barely starting to show grey. Jerry Lee never had a hunk of
meat cut up for him in his life.. he was still eating mostly kibble when i met my
hubby, but when it was time to clean out the freezer, Jerry Lee got all the
freezer burnt meat, and he was a real pizzaholic, no humans were allowed to
bring pizza to the house unless Jerry Lee got a piece of his own (this continued
until the day he died).

What i think i'm trying to say is that you may be selling your dog short..
she may not be a young punk anymore, but she's not dead or dying.. give her the
benefit of the doubt and treat her like the wolf that she is...

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Who on this list has been feeding RAW for many years?
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 8:33 pm ((PDT))

I didn't respond since we've only been feeding raw for 2.5 years. My
4.5 year old dog is as full of energy as when we got her - people
routinely ask me if she's still a puppy. And my 8.5 year old has put
on nice muscle since we switched, although his white face gives his
age away. ;)

We visit the vet only once a year for a weigh-in, check up and
heartworm test. I hope their good health will continue for many years
to come!

Olga

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: feeding once or twice a day
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 8:36 pm ((PDT))

I think once a day might be worth a try. The one thing I would
suggest is to try milder proteins like turkey and pork before you add
lamb, beef or fish. Also, add small amounts of the new protein to a
familiar meal since he's already shown his tummy isn't good with
sudden changes. If all goes well, increase the amount of the new
protein after.

Good luck!
Olga

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. dove taken with lead shot
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 3:33 am ((PDT))

I have removed all the lead shot from the dove. Is there still any
risk of lead poisoning from where the lead WAS in them? This is the
first wild game that I am feeding that I have taken and wanted to make
sure. Thanks!

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Grinding Tripe
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 4:23 am ((PDT))

Hi you could just cut it into smaller chunks? If not I'd go with the food processor idea.

Natalie

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
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<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

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