Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 18, 2007

Tuesday, September 18, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12048

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: costrowski75
1b. boneless meals/what to feed?
From: blue eyed
1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: katkellm
1e. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Sandee Lee
1f. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1g. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1h. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: caroline gebbie

2a. Re: Cutting necks?
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: green tripe
From: Dave Brown
3.2. Re: green tripe
From: Deborah Gordon
3.3. Re: green tripe
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: problems with cheese???
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: problems with cheese???
From: Michael Moore
4c. Re: problems with cheese???
From: Dave Brown
4d. Re: problems with cheese???
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4e. Re: problems with cheese???
From: kahonebay

5a. Re: Newbie Here
From: Misty Sargent

6a. Re: I'm new with puppy
From: Giselle

7a. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Giselle

8a. EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
From: Erica Mills

9a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
From: Pam Staley
9b. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

10. mistaken post to rawfeeding
From: Dave Brown

11. Help with new puppies....
From: Cindy Marabito

Messages
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1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

"morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
>> Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That
leaves
> 80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't talking
more
> about boneless meals?
*****
We do. They are recommended endlessly, tirelessly. But it's pert
easy to find boneless meat--no bone means boneless. It's harder to
find edible bones that are sufficiently meaty. That's why dicussions
tend to revolve around and return to meaty bones.

> Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
> Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?
*****
I have no idea. My guess is people tend to feed more bone than they
need to, either because they don't believe 10%-15% is nutritionally
adequate, or because they are accustomed to feeding certain RMBs and
if those RMBs are significantly bony, well, that's just how it goes.

I feed many boneless meals. I also feed bone-in body parts that are
seriously meaty. And I also feed bone-in body parts that are pretty
darn bony, but in a good raw diet this all evens out over time. And I
also offer generally inedible bones that are so wonderfully meaty
(whole beef shanks for example) that they might as well be boneless.

There are lots of ways to feed meat. Boneless is one of them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

I dont really think of it as feeding bones 10% of the time and meat 80% of the time. I try to think of feeding raw meaty bones. In otherwards (sp?) feed bones where the meal is about 10-15% bone and the rest meat. Make another meal offal or add some to the other meal that has meaty bones. You will find what suits your dog best.

Try to remember it is variety over time, so dont worry if each and every meal dosn't add up perfectly.

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

Dave,

The commercial frozen products are notoriously high in bone content, low on
meat and fat. Don't assume those ratios are correct.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Dave Brown" <quahog@netnet.net>
>
> I feed a ground, fresh frozen, commercial raw diet that has bone,
> muscle meat, organ meat, etc.... it has the bone/meat balance
> already done for me. I still give Maxx bones on the side and
> occasional boneless meals.

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, caroline gebbie <caz320ml@...> wrote:

> Very new to this and was thinking of feeding a frozen commercial
diet such as prize choice and giving the occassional half chicken and
bone to chew on.

Hi Caroline,
I'm not Dave, but i would like to put in my couple cents about feeding
frozen patties. First, as with kibble, you are at someone else's
mercy as to what is in the diet. You don't really know for absolutely
positively sure what you are feeding your dog. You are forced to take
their word for the ingredients. Second, any frozen raw company is in
it for the same reason kibble manufacturers are in it-the$$$. The
more bone and grizzle and junk they put in there the cheaper it is to
make, and the cheaper it is to make, the more $ they make. Call me a
skeptic, put i can't trust a company like that to feed my dog-help me
balance my checkbook, maybe, since money is their motivation, but not
decide what my dog gets to eat--not decide how much bone or organ or
meat is appropriate for my dog. The frozen raw patty might seem to be
more conventient, but it certainly is not more convenient than the
prey model diet which is taught here--no grinders to smash, no
blenders to puree...Just hand your dog a hunk of meat. Granted, we
talk about percentages of bone/organ/meat, but that is a "one time and
ya learned it all" recipe that is very easy to create and very
forgiving over time because it can be tweeked and padded to balance
out to the perfect diet for your individual dog. Also, every ground
patty that you feed with the already mashed up bone, deprives your dog
of one of the biggest advantages of the prey model raw diet, dental
hygiene. Those patties can't clean teeth, and they can't provide the
mental and physical challenge that a hunk of meat with a bone in it
somewhere can. Please read more from this list and ask questions and
really think about it before you ditch kibble to get suckered in by
frozen patties. JMO KathyM who is now stepping off her soap box and
says "sorry" if she carried on just a tad too much

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

I see Prize Choice does offer chunked meat which might be ok to add some
variety to a nice whole foods raw diet, but you could probably find most of
those same items in your local markets far cheaper. You definitely want to
stay away form the ground up mixtures they sell which contain veggies and
rice.

Far better to stick with whole chickens and other large chunks of food so
you have control over the ingredients and provide the necessary exercise and
tooth cleaning you won't get with commercial foods.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "caroline gebbie" <caz320ml@yahoo.com>

> Very new to this and was thinking of feeding a frozen commercial diet
such as prize choice and giving the occassional half chicken and bone to
chew on. Is this what you do? And what commercial diet do you feed?

Messages in this topic (13)
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1f. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/18/2007 7:04:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
quahog@netnet.net writes:

I feed a ground, fresh frozen, commercial raw diet that has bone,
muscle meat, organ meat, etc.... it has the bone/meat balance
already done for me. I still give Maxx bones on the side and
occasional boneless meals.

****the focus of this group is prey model raw feeding.. commercially prepared
ground "dog food" is not part of a species appropriate raw diet.

Commercially prepared raw foods are high in bone (because it's cheap) and
have veggies (unnecessary and potentially harmful, because they are cheap) and
very little actual meat. Not to mention the fact that it's ground and the dogs
don't get any dental hygene benefits or the workout and
chewing/tearing/crunching satisfaction that comes with feeding appropriately.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1g. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/18/2007 4:46:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ShankMa4@aol.com writes:

Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That leaves
80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't talking more
about boneless meals?

Cindi,

that's just it.. we do talk about meaty meat meals and MEATY bones, rather
than bones with meat on them.. and it goes in one ear and out the other.. folks
focus on the bones because that is what has been drilled into their heads by
folks like billinghurst and the other "diet gurus".

And then there are the other end of the spectrum, the folks that are afraid
to give their dogs bones, so they feed them meat only and then complain that
their dogs' poop is runny.

you really can't win, you can put out the info often, and every once in
awhile someone's light bulb turns on and the whole world is better. In the mean
time, we keep on putting the info out there and hoping for the best.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1h. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kathy

Thanks for comments, and don't apologise for getting on soap box we all love our dogs.
I think I am just scared about finding options, without buying expensive cuts. I have 2 boxers one 27 kilos the other 31 kilos, both ideal weight or a little under as they both have problems with their rear ends.

I have rung a few butchers and they all seem horrified at the idea, and in the uk Deer is out i am afraid, my dad does shoot so rabbits and the odd pheasant are a possibility but he lives an hour away.

Thanks I will keep reading and looking and see what I can come up with.

Caroline, Bonnie and Londo

katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, caroline gebbie <caz320ml@...> wrote:

>Hi Caroline,
I'm not Dave, but i would like to put in my couple cents about feeding
frozen patties. First, as with kibble, you are at someone else's
mercy as to what is in the diet. You don't really know for absolutely
positively sure what you are feeding your dog.

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Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Cutting necks?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT))

"Maria" <plava_93@...> wrote:
how do you cut the neck and spine? I'm sure it will
> involve the mighty hack saw but most people say to "Avoid saw cut
> bones".. So what do I do?
****
Well, you can ignore them what say avoid saw cut bones.

Or you can have them saw cut, then smash up the ends a bit to make
them less edgy.

Or you can bash the heck out of the sections you want to separate,
then sort of cut through the debris (I used to do this--successfully--
with pork necks).

Or you could not separate the neck from the spine (they're the same
thing anyway) and let your dogs have a field day on that particular
body part.

I have fed many saw-cut vension necks with absolutely no ill effects.
I have fed sawed lamb shanks with no ill effects. And whole beef
shanks. And pork arm roasts. Perhaps the caution is more relevant to
meatless bones than to meaty bones. Or perhaps feeding body parts
instead of arbitrary lengths of whatever reduces the need for concern.

I know I would HATE to pass up a meaty goat neck or spine because of
cut ends!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3.1. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Freeze dried green tripe is good, but I'd recommend using it only for
special treats when training or other rewardable activities. It's
much too expensive to use as a basic diet staple. Opt for the fresh
if you are looking for any regular feeding of green tripe. But then
again, in the grand scheme of things a 3.8# Maltese doesn't eat a
whole heck of a lot, so you might find freeze dried 100% Green Tripe
affordable.

DAve Brown

At 09:22 AM 9/18/2007, you wrote:

>Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe. I don't need
>too much at one time. My maltese is 3.8 pounds. I'm confused as to
>which one to order online and can I feed the freeze dried green tripe?
>Thank you
>
>Debbie

Messages in this topic (52)
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3.2. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Deborah Gordon" gary44deb@yahoo.com gary44deb
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi, thank you for your response to the green tripe. I thought I checked greentripe.com and you had to order a very large amount but I will check again. I live in Queens, New York.

Thank you again

Debbie

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Messages in this topic (52)
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3.3. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

Deborah Gordon <gary44deb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, thank you for your response to the green tripe. I thought I
checked greentripe.com and you had to order a very large amount but I
will check again. I live in Queens, New York.
*****
Holy moly. There are sources much closer to you than greentripe.com,
which is in California!

What you should do is subscribe to the CarnivoreFeed-Suppliers list
and post that you are looking for a closer source of fresh green
tripe. If you put "fresh green tripe" and "Queens, NY" in the subject
line, you will make it easy for the right people to reply.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (52)
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4a. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

"rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@...> wrote:
>
> I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw. What
are
> the problems that a dog may have. I need to convince my husband to
> stop treating my dog with cheese .
*****
It's good you are so conscientious but you don't need to be. Not
all the time at least. There are worse treats than cheese and you
know what? I probably feed them. I feed cheese bits and noodle
bits and bits of lettuce and tomato and cucumber as treats. I feed
ice cubes and pieces of bread as treats. Sometimes licking my goopy
hand is the treat. Sometimes licking the plate is the treat. I
feed kibble samples as treats.

If a treat is used as a special thing (which it should be) then
anything that pleases the dog and doesn't make it sick can be a
treat...obviously this is determined by each dog individually. If a
treat is used as an ordinary (which it ought not be) then perhaps
it's better to tighten up one's indiscriminate use of treats.

Since most trainers encourage heavy food treating at least at first,
maybe a sterner choice of reward food is a good idea. But IMO the
decider should be the dog's desire to work for it and the dog's
ability to digest it. Whether a treat is species appropriate is
perhaps secondary.

You might tell your husband that too much cheese will give the dog
the squirts and will make it fat. Or just tell him to knock it
off. When the dogs are nagging my husband for some of whatever he's
got, he tells them it's not his fault they can't have any and to "go
talk to Mom."
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

>>I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw. What are
the problems that a dog may have. I need to convince my husband to
stop treating my dog with cheese.<<

Barb -- sometimes I really think we complicate things that don't need to be so. I use string cheese as the "end-all-be-all" favorite treat of my GSD, Holly, at agility training every Thursday. I save it for things that are "issues" for her -- the dreaded dogwalk and on occasion the weave poles. I've done so for over six years. She has no problems with digesting the cheese. She also may get dehydrated salmon, freeze-dried liver, hot dogs, and other assorted treats as I might have in my training bag on the day.
Treats are such a small percentage of what my dogs eat that I just don't make an issue of a treat that isn't "perfect." I've said it before and I'll repeat -- treats can be anything. It's a minor issue in a raw diet.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

At 12:14 PM 9/18/2007, you wrote:

>I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw.

Why not? Natural cheeses may be technically "processed" (heated to
kill unwanted bacteria), but other than Processed American or maybe
Pasteurize Processed Gruyere, I'd call cheddar "raw" because it is
made with live cultures and rennet. My Maxx, who eats99.9% raw,
loves cheese. As far as I'm concerned it is one of the "right"
things to include (in moderation) for a dog on a raw diet.

Is this considered anathema to the strictest raw feeders? I don't
know. I just know what I think, believe, and do.

Dave Brown
Green Bay, WI

Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:55 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/18/2007 11:40:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
quahog@netnet.net writes:

My Maxx, who eats99.9% raw,
loves cheese. As far as I'm concerned it is one of the "right"
things to include (in moderation) for a dog on a raw diet.

Dave,

Cheese is Dairy.. made of milk, and dogs quickly become lactose intollerant
after they are weaned. this is why we generally don't include cheese, or
yogurt or cottage cheese or anything made with milk in the regular diet.

as treats, which should be almost nothing compared to the amount of food in
the diet in general, cheese or hotdogs, biscuits.. it's all fair game. Unless
your dog has specific health issues that don't allow even the smallest treat
of something that it may have a reaction to.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4e. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "kahonebay" kahonebay@yahoo.com kahonebay
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the great laugh Chris! I love it! My husband would give the dogs each a slice of cheese every day, twice a day...he loves to give treats just to give them when they greet him at the backdoor. I finally semi-curbed that. When they are misbehaving he yells for me and says "YOUR dogs are being bad come tell them to stop!". LOL Everyone in our family thinks we love our dogs way too much...I don't think that is possible since we don't have kids!!!
Kris

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"You might tell your husband that too much cheese will give the dog
the squirts and will make it fat. Or just tell him to knock it
off. When the dogs are nagging my husband for some of whatever he's
got, he tells them it's not his fault they can't have any and to "go
talk to Mom."
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:33 am ((PDT))

***TRIMMED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hey PK,

Did you ask the vet about Salmon oil? I give that to my pack, and as long as you get the coldwater Alaskan salmon oil (not the farmed king), I think it would probably be okay. But I would definitely ask anyway since I'm no doggie heart expert. What I use comes in a liquid oil that you have to keep refrigerated once opened, and I just pump once into their bowl. One pump is about 1 teaspoon full, and mine range in weight from 13-17.5 pounds.

Misty

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Re: I'm new with puppy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

Hi, Susan!

Don't get too invested in the math!
I post the general guidelines of how to calculate how much to feed a
pup or dog, because new-to-raw people tend to be very dissatisfied
with "Feed as much as needed to keep the dog healthy 'n happy, enough
to grow and maintain, but not too thin nor too fat. Adjust amounts as
necessary". Which is the real answer! But it serves a purpose; it
gives people confidence, gives them a jumping off point and gets them
started feeding raw.

I weighed my dogs, and their food, for about a month, maybe. What you
need to do is learn to trust your common sense, and develop your
'eye'. Get used to looking at your dog and pup critically, running
your hands over them, and feeling of their ribs, and backbone and
hipbones. You want to be able to feel them, but not too much. Every
dog is unique, and pups change daily. What is right for them today may
change tomorrow.
Keep us posted!

TC
Giselle

> Thank you all for your response! We picked up our boy tonight and he
> got his first chicken thigh when we settled in at home. He
> absolutely loved it! I will do the math on the quantities and start
> that tomorrow. Until I can get in a co-op I think I will be buying
> meat daily! What a change from my terrier who only ate 1/2 lb a
> day! Thank you all again for your help!
>
> Susan

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Hi, Renate!
Just my 2 cents.
The real learning about feeding raw happens after you start!
If you watch the dogs, they will teach you.
What you learn before that integrates with what their body's responses
tell you. Its a dynamic process.
Don't wait!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
We've been testing the waters and none of them have any
> problem eating any bits of anything that I cut off our food before
cooking,
> so I don't know why I'm hesitating. Keep thinking I need to learn
more...
> Renate

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
Posted by: "Erica Mills" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

I was just about to ask the same question! My GSD has terrible gas too! But, he's been eating raw exclusively for over a year now.
Any suggestions for how to keep the smell down?
Thanks!
Erica

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
Posted by: "Pam Staley" pam@tlcnaturally.com mogalone2001
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

thanks for the info and so nice to know there are other doxie owners
(chunky doxie owners :->) out there that are doing raw ... my poor
little Benson isn't in as much pain as he was yesterday, but he's not
putting any weight on his right hind leg yet...and he's sleeping so
much...course that's probably the predisone and right now he doesn't
need to be running around.

He ate his raw meat this morning with gusto though :-) ... gave him
some raw beef roast this morning... according to his 'ideal' weight..
he should be getting almost 1/4 lb a day....does that sound right? 3%
x 8 lbs? sure seems like nothing ..... LOL

Pam in MO

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K Carolyn Ramamurti
<lilith23360@...> wrote:
>
> Welcome, Pam! I'm sure you'll be happy with your decision. This
list-serve has been wonderfully helpful to me.
>
> I have two mini-doxies that I have been raw-feeding since they
came to live here at three months. They are sisters, but one is on
the thin side (I recently wrote the list asking what to feed to put
weight on her). The OTHER one is a little chunk, and I do worry
about future back problems.
>
> Lots and lots of exercise isn't an option for your guy right now,
but I

Messages in this topic (12)
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9b. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

I am so glad he is doing better and you're right, he probably doesn't need to be running around right now.

The amount you're feeding sounds right per what I've learned on the list -- since I am feeding one skinny dog and a chunky one together, I have not been limiting the amount I feed -- I simply "up" the exercise level (which, unfortunately, you can't do right now....) The girls do at least a mile a day and sometimes, closer to two. I must confess, it has not helped my "chunk" dog look as lean as I would like. She looks like a little body builder -- glossy coat and BIG, rippling muscles. She has the biggest butt, lol, not right for a dachsund, but it really is all muscle.

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Messages in this topic (12)
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10. mistaken post to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:37 pm ((PDT))

Chris,

I sent a message that was to go private but it went to the rawfeeding
list by mistake. It contained some advertising and I wonder if you
could delete it for me. The subject line reads "OFF List
- [rawfeeding] green tripe".

I'm sorry if this causes any problems, but please take it off the
list if you can.

Thanks,

Dave Brown
Green Bay, WI

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Help with new puppies....
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

My sister's rescued dog who had the 7 puppies and I need your
advice...The puppies are 3 weeks old now and the mom is really
getting sick of nursing them. The mom's raw fed and my sister's
trying to come up with something to feed the puppies where they get
enough nourishment. How old should they be to accept ground turkey or
something of that nature...any advice or help you might be able to
give would be very much appreciated...Cindy

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12047

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Dave Brown
1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: katkellm
1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: caroline gebbie

2a. Re: Turkey Questions
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Turkey Questions
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: Turkey Questions
From: Michael Moore

3. Cutting necks?
From: Maria

4a. Re: Constipation?
From: Andrea

5a. Re: EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
From: gr8dnrsq

6.1. green tripe
From: gary44deb
6.2. Re: green tripe
From: Andrea
6.3. Re: green tripe
From: connie

7a. Re: newbie - with problems
From: katkellm

8a. Cheese???
From: dupontracefan
8b. Re: Cheese???
From: Maria
8c. Re: Cheese???
From: Sonja
8d. Re: Cheese???
From: mgitaville

9. update on Cairn puppy that would not eat
From: Peter Hartman

10a. Re: Newbie Here
From: PK Shader
10b. Re: Newbie Here
From: Andrea

11a. Re: Goat - how to order
From: marblekallie

12a. Re: New and just started
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

14. problems with cheese???
From: rbmc1231937

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

I think one of the reasons we don't talk about boneless meals a lot
is because most new people are most afraid of the bones and confused
about what bone is edible etc. Keep in mind that "meat" is pretty
much anything that isn't bone or organ, so that includes skin, fat,
cartilage, hair, etc. That said, my most successful meaty meals come
from tongue and heart. I consider green tripe as a meat, but I don't
feed it that often. Pork shoulder is considered a meaty meal half
the time when the boys decide they would rather play tug of war with
the bone than eat it.

Don't worry too much about feeding exactly 80% meat, just keep in
mind you want to feed mostly meat. And as you add more meat to the
diet keep an eye on your dog's stools. Some dogs need lots more bone
than others in order to have non-liquid poos. Look for meaty bones
where you can't tell where the bone is.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:

> Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That
> leaves 80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't
> talking more about boneless meals?
>
> Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless
> meals?

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:04 am ((PDT))

Because the bones are a necessary part of the meal. They contain
things (e.g. trace minerals and such) that contribute to the dog's
overall health.

Don't worry about maintaining the 80/20 balance at every meal. It's
an overall guideline, not an inviolable rule on a meal to meal or
even a day to day requirements.

Dave

At 07:33 AM 9/18/2007, you wrote:
>. How come we aren't talking more
>about boneless meals?
>
>Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
>Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?
>
>Thank you!
>
>Cindi

Dave Brown
Green Bay, WI

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:

> Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
> Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?

Hi Cindi,
I think that this is where the phrase "balance over time" really plays
out. The chicken meal that is 26% bone today is balanced by
tomorrow's meal of beef hearts or the all meatless meals i fed a few
days down the road followed by the too heavy turkey quarter the next
week. So, yes, i'm feeding 80% meat, but not 80% of my meals are
necessarily boneless. I remember being surprised that chicken wasn't
10% bone, seemed to me like 10%. My light bulb moment occurred when i
tried to cut through a pork roast which i thought was boneless and
there hidden at the bottom of the roast was this L shaped bone buried
under all the meat. You are right, imo, that the term "raw meaty
bone" is confusing. I think the term "prey model" paints a better
visual for most people. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))

Hi Dave
Very new to this and was thinking of feeding a frozen commercial diet such as prize choice and giving the occassional half chicken and bone to chew on. Is this what you do? And what commercial diet do you feed?

I am in the UK so not sure where you are.

Thanks
Caroline

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Turkey Questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

Hi, Greg, I'm jealous you are so close to a turkey farm! All of the
turkey is good eating for the dogs. If you can get whole ones that
would be best, but for a Corgi you could use any piece they want to
give you. If you get backs you would need to add more meat to the
party, and necks could use more meat too. My dogs are too big to be
trusted with turkey necks, but a Corgi should be fine, assuming she
isn't a gulper.

Any protein you choose is a good starter meat. It is just a matter
of getting digestive juices up to snuff before adding in new things.
Poultry is good also because it has lots of edible bones and are
pretty lean, both of which reduce the chance of loose stools.

So far I haven't had any luck with meat markets giving over meat that
has passed it's sell by date. I'm sure they are afraid I'll try to
eat it or something. But it never hurts to ask, you might get
lucky. If it is a real butcher that cuts up their own animals you
can ask to go through their discard barrel for organs and such. If
they just repackage meat you can ask them to order bulk cases for
you. The only thing you should stay away from is bare naked bones.

Changing up the feeding schedule is a great idea. One way of
changing to once a day is slowly increasing the size of one meal
while the other gets smaller, eventually you just stop feeding the
small meal. You can also start feeding the two meals at random times
so the dog stops expecting food at certain times of the day. Once
there is no set "feeding time" you are free to give a meal whenever
you want to. Hope that helps you.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Falken" <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> What turkey parts should we ask about that would be good for a 30-
> 35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to start out on as
> chicken? We also have a local market with a meat department. Should
> we just ask them what parts they usually discard?
<snip>
>If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's the best way to
> transition to a once a day diet?

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Turkey Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))

"Greg Falken" <yahoo@...> wrote:
our town has a turkey ranch that raises free-range
> turkeys (Diestel Farms).
*****
These are gooood turkeys! After Christmas last year I was able to
buy several Diestels from Raleys for .29/lb. A fine present, I'd say.

What turkey parts should we ask about that
> would be good for a 30-35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to
start
> out on as chicken?
*****
A 30-35lb dog should be able to do justice to most any part. If you
are intent upon buying parts instead of wholes, you can consider legs
and thighs and necks and backs and wings and breasts. Which is sorta
kinda like the whole bird. Perhaps you can buy a whole bird and have
them quarter it for a. easier stashing and b. you to cut into smaller
hunks as needed. Get the heart, liver and gizzard, too!

Since the breasts are huge, I usually hack much of the meat from the
breastbone, then feed the meat over time with added beef heart or
other red meat.

Go for some big parts; don't buy ground stuff. Let your pupster
wrestle with its food when you can. It's fun for the pup, it's fun
for you.

Turkey is fine for starting out. There's nothing magic about chicken
except price and if you can buy turkey reasonably from Diestel, by
all means do.

We also have a local market with a meat department.
> Should we just ask them what parts they usually discard? The choices
> seem a bit overwhelming.
*****
Since meat guys pride themselves on leaving no meat behind, I would
not recommend discards because they will likely be of little value to
your dog. Trim from precut meats usually goes into ground meat
or "saw dust" which is mostly fat. OTOH, if your meat market cuts
its own meat in the back (I mean they get a dressed whole or a half
steer or pig and part it out) you may be able to get some decent trim
from them (ask for a looksee before you buy).

You do not want bare bones regardless of how the Meat Dude recommends
them. You want meat with some bone in it, not bone with some meat on
it. Or just meat. "Just meat" is a good thing. The abundance of
meat should drive your purchase decisions, not the name or size of
the bone. Go for cheap meat. Cheap bones are rarely worth it.

If you are overwhelmed, take notes, make a list of what is available,
write to us and we'll help ya out. Cross my heart.

>If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's
> the best way to transition to a once a day diet?
*****
IMO pups should eat two or three times a day depending on age (and of
course any health issues). I usually move my pups to twice a day at
16 weeks, then to one meal somewhere around 10 months, depending on
the pup's ability to effectively process a day's worth of food in one
meal. Some pups cannot. At this point, the pup's nourishment is more
important than your convenience. Later, when the kid has shown a
clear ability to eat and appropriately digest one big meal, you're
both good to go.

Moving an adult to one meal is pretty much the same process. A dog
new to raw food should probably be transitioned with some finesse,
since everything will be new all new. A dog accustomed to raw food
should be able to move to one daily meal in short order; maybe a week
or two? Again, the dog's ability to effectively process all the food
in one meal is--at least IMO--the most important consideration.

I usually make one meal smaller while increasing the size of the
other meal until one of the two meals is little more than a snack.
Sometimes I feed a larger am meal, sometimes I feed a larger pm
meal. I try not to estblish a pattern, so that when I am feeding one
meal a day the dog doesn't expect food at a particular time.

Moving to one meal a day is the PERFECT time to stop feeding by the
clock, if you are doing so. Once the dog is on one meal, mix up
feeding times...once the dog is on one meal, you can indeed feed for
your convenience!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Turkey Questions
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

>>We haven't started feeding raw yet, for the simple reason that our
adopted Corgi doesn't arrive until Friday. We're researching food
sources now and our town has a turkey ranch that raises free-range
turkeys (Diestel Farms). What turkey parts should we ask about that
would be good for a 30-35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to start
out on as chicken? We also have a local market with a meat department.
Should we just ask them what parts they usually discard? The choices
seem a bit overwhelming.<<

Greg - any/all parts of a turkey are edible for most dogs. If your Corgi isn't *used* to eating raw, turkey may prove a little more intimidating than chicken as the bones are harder, but it's fine to start with otherwise. I'm not lucky enough to find free-range turkey, so I buy turkey mostly at holiday time when the good sales are on.
You may find that the "local market with a meat department" won't have any parts they discard. At least around here, those type of places don't get whole animals. You'll have better luck with a butcher for that kind of thing. And, BTW, if you tell uninformed folks that you want what they "discard," you'll end up with a bunch of naked bones. OTH, if you find a butcher, you can ask for beef heart --a great source of beef muscle meat -- and usually get it at a reasonable price. I tell butchers, etc., originally, that I "make my own dog food," and have less problems with well-intentioned advice.
And, yes, it *is* overwhelming when you start out; it will get easier, I promise. Keep it simple -- stick to one protein for a week or two, and gradually add in one proteins, one at a time. Hold off on organs for a while as they are rich and can cause loose stools. I start new-to-raw dogs with a mere thumbnail sized portion of liver, for example, after several weeks on raw.

>>Oh yes, one more thing. If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's
the best way to transition to a once a day diet? This is purely for our
convenience but it would sure make things easier.<<

Well, Corgis are the original Hoover dogs, and they *always* think they're starving, but mine have adjusted easily to once daily feedings. I got the "pathetic, starving dogs" look for several mornings, but I just went about my business and ignored them. I like once daily feedings not only for the convenience, but additionally, I can give bigger pieces of food, which brings multiple benefits.
Have fun with your new adoptee, and let me know if I can be of help. We've had Corgis for over 20 yrs., and have rawfed for over six.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3. Cutting necks?
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

In a couple days I will be butchering 3 goats. I know that things like
shoulders, "thighs" and ribs can be removed without interfering with
the bone but how do you cut the neck and spine? I'm sure it will
involve the mighty hack saw but most people say to "Avoid saw cut
bones".. So what do I do?

Thanks!
Maria

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Constipation?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

Well, coming off of eating a food like substance like Ol' Roy,
Darwin's body is probably starving for nutrients. He's probably
using up everything that he is eating. That said, depending on the
size of the chicken breast, you probably want to let him eat more
food. He should be eating around 1.5 lbs a day, and it sounds like
he's getting less. I wouldn't get too worried just yet, you don't
want to add lubricating agents and end up with cannon butt.

Once you are sure he's digesting ok I would give him chicken quarters
so that he doesn't have the option of swallowing his food whole.
Other than that, it sounds like you guys are doing really well. Let
us know how it goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...>
wrote:

> I've been giving him breast in the morning and drumstick at night
> both days following that. He had a bowel movement Saturday night
> (getting rid of the last of the ki**le from his system) but has not
> done so since.
<snip>
> My question is this: How long do I continue to feed him and assume
> it's just that he's eating less bulk and will take a little while
> to work its way through his system?
<snip snip>
> Yesterday Darwin (the Greyhound) was a bit over-enthusiastic about
> swallowing his bone and had to cough it back up to make it
> smaller.

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
Posted by: "gr8dnrsq" gr8dnrsq@comcast.net gr8dnrsq
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

Hi Steve

Id recommend joining k9EPIGLOBAL yahoo list, many of us EPI'ers feed
raw, just have to figure out the balance of meat/fat plus enzymes.

My Diesel is a 160lb great dane so I can sympathize with the clearing
of the room.....or rooms <:-o

Lori and Diesel (dx oral melanoma, EPI, suffered FCE, raw fed)

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. green tripe
Posted by: "gary44deb" gary44deb@yahoo.com gary44deb
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe. I don't need
too much at one time. My maltese is 3.8 pounds. I'm confused as to
which one to order online and can I feed the freeze dried green tripe?
Thank you

Debbie

Messages in this topic (49)
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6.2. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:05 am ((PDT))

It depends on where you live really. I live in California so I get my
stuff from greentripe.com a lot of the other places are just too
expensive to ship from. I get the regular tripe without anything
added. If your maltese is fussy with organs green tripe is a good way
to hide them. Since I can get the real stuff for relatively cheap I've
never tried the freeze dried or canned stuff. Where do you live?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gary44deb" <gary44deb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe.

Messages in this topic (49)
________________________________________________________________________

6.3. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gary44deb" <gary44deb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe. >
> Debbie
>
Hi Debbie,
I order tripe from Hare today http://www.hare-today.com/ You can order
as much as you need and just divide it up into serving sizes and freeze
that way in small baggies. I also give the freeze dried. I do a
everyother day thing. It also depends on where you live aas far as
ordering. You want to make sure the shipping is reasonable.
Greentripe.com aslo sells it.
~connie~
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (49)
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7a. Re: newbie - with problems
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "m0v1efan" <susanbrown@...> wrote:
> So do I just cut it in half and give it to the girls? Or I think I
> read someone saying a whole chicken should do five feedings?
> Both of my girls are around 70 pounds.

Hi Susie,
I feel like i'm back in school again and going to flunk the math test
because i have never been blessed with the gift of figurin, but at 2%
of 70lbs. you should be feeding,according to my math, in the
neighborhood of 1 and half to two pounds per dog per day. The amount
doesn't have to be exact at each meal. A little less today can be
made up with a little more food tomorrow. You can always adjust the
amount as time goes on if you see your girls gaining/losing weight.
So, depending on the weight of the bird, you got it right, just cut it
in half and feed. Five feedings out of a chicken would have to be for
a small dog. As far as the chicken buying goes, as long as the bird
isn't enhanced with anything, it is fine to feed. Lately, the
chickens i have found on sale don't even come with the little pouch
that has the heart and such in it. Good Luck, KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Cheese???
Posted by: "dupontracefan" dupontracefan@yahoo.com dupontracefan
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:03 am ((PDT))

My puppy starts therapy training today and the instructor does not
allow me to bring say cut up chicken for rewards in training she only
wants you to bring cheese bites and I didn't know if cheese is ok and
if so is there one that is better than another???
Thanks,
Diane

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Cheese???
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

Can you use dyhydrated stuff? I know it is "cooked" but it is better
then cheese. You can get "Dehydrated Ground Goat" from Hare-Today,
that would work well.

HTH!
Maria
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dupontracefan" <dupontracefan@...>
wrote:
>
> My puppy starts therapy training today and the instructor does not
> allow me to bring say cut up chicken for rewards in training she only
> wants you to bring cheese bites and I didn't know if cheese is ok and
> if so is there one that is better than another???
> Thanks,
> Diane
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Cheese???
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

I would used cooked or dehydrated chicken (or any dehydrated meat) and tell the instructor that my dog is severely allergic to dairy products. :-) I've never had a problem telling a trainer that my dog can't eat certain things, usually they're understanding, particularly if you bring up a medical issue.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: Cheese???
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dupontracefan" <dupontracefan@...>
wrote:
>
> My puppy starts therapy training today and the instructor does not
> allow me to bring say cut up chicken for rewards in training she only
> wants you to bring cheese bites and I didn't know if cheese is ok and
> if so is there one that is better than another???
> Thanks,
> Diane
>

******Not sure why the trainer would "only" allow cheese especially
given that many dogs do not tolerate dairy well. However, with that
said I don't see any reason chesse can't be used. I have used cheese
and leftover (aka starting to spoil) deli meat as training treats in
the past. I used whatever I had at the time that was not a soft
cheese. As I mentioned above, just watch your pup to make sure that
he/she can tolerate the dairy.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (4)
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9. update on Cairn puppy that would not eat
Posted by: "Peter Hartman" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

I went with one raw egg and a small shredded chicken breast all mixed with
some garlic powder. He did not eat at his normal dinner time but we tried
again at about 10 and he ate a good chunk of it. He ate the other half of
that this morning. This gives me hope that he may be warming up to the idea
of actually eating something that is good for him. hopefully this trend will
continue and I can start branching out his diet. I am going to shoot for a
few solid days of eating bone free chicken and then try adding something
like chicken wings. Does this sound like a reasonable plan of attack?

-peter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

I just wanted to thank everyone for their timely suggestions. I
appreciate the help. Homey is not strong enough to rip off flesh.
His symptoms did not come on slowly (so not CDS) but all at once
accompanied by a right pupil which would not dilate, fearful
confusion, incontinence and alleged kidney failure.

So rabbit and any other meats high in phosphorus are out. Although he
has been receiving garlic his entire life I will take him off of it as
soon as the murderous mosquitoes are gone. I don't want to take him
"cold turkey" off the probiotics so do you think I could substitute
organic kefir or yogurt instead? If so how much daily? It was my
understanding that the enzymatic change was largest contributor to
keeping the dog's teeth clean on a raw diet and not only the bone
chewing was this incorrect? I can have his teeth cleaned but because
of his cognitive condition sedating is risky. I will try first
myself. I know that if the teeth are scraped and not polished they are
left with little fissures or scratches that attract tartar so does
anyone have suggestions on how to polish his teeth after they have
been scraped?

And lastly, I have given Homey sardines and mackerel because I was
told by a couple of doctors that too high a dose of cod liver oil
could damage the heart. Not knowing whether that was true or not and
if it was just specific to cod liver oil, this made me a little
nervous about "fish oils" in general. So can anyone tell me the safe
dose for a 17 pound dog?

Questions, questions. Thanks again for all your help.

PK and Homey Jack

Messages in this topic (14)
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10b. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

Poor Homey, sounds like he's been through the wringer. If his jaw
strength isn't what it could be, cornish game hens might be great for
him. The meat and bone on them are extremely soft. When I don't
feel like dirtying up a knife I have been known to pull a cornish
game hen apart with my hands (and I'm far from burly).

Maybe you can give Homey a smaller dose of probiotics or on a less
regular basis in order to try and wean him off of them. I've never
had any luck with yogurt or kefir except to create loose stools.

I don't know anything about the enzymatic cleaning of teeth, though.
I've heard some ex B*RF feeders say after they switched to prey model
their dogs had much cleaner teeth and sweeter breath, though.

You are right to stay away from cod liver oil, it has a lot of
vitamins A and D which can accumulate to toxic levels if too much is
given. Fish body oil on the other hand has the good O3's without the
vitamins.

You can't really overdose on fish oil except that lots of it would
probably cause cannon butt. Generally you want to find 1000mg
capsules that have at least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA in them. For a
maintenance dose you would give a capsule for every 20lbs of dog.
Theraputic dose would be twice that, or a capsule for every 10lbs.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:

> I don't want to take him "cold turkey" off the probiotics so do you
> think I could substitute organic kefir or yogurt instead?
<snip>
> And lastly, I have given Homey sardines and mackerel because I was
> told by a couple of doctors that too high a dose of cod liver oil
> could damage the heart. Not knowing whether that was true or not
> and if it was just specific to cod liver oil, this made me a little
> nervous about "fish oils" in general. So can anyone tell me the
> safe dose for a 17 pound dog?

Messages in this topic (14)
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11a. Re: Goat - how to order
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

Chris:

Thanks! The last time I got human butcher type cuts and they were
either too small or too big, so I wasn't sure.

Philippa

> Cool!
> I have ordered goat cut into 4" - 6" hunks (for others, not for my
> dogs!) which added .15/lb to the price but seems to work nicely for
> those who preferred to feed smaller goat parts. I'd think that would
> be a useful size even for your wee ones.

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: New and just started
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:07 am ((PDT))

"Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...> wrote:
> I started him with chicken and he gobbled it up, added some eggs,
then beef.
> Today he had Duck Hearts and was going crazy dancing around as
soon as he
> got a whiff. For treats he has been getting dehydrated Bison
Hearts.
*****
You might want to slow down, simplify, reduce variety unless you've
been feeding this melange for a while and he continues without
incident. If/when the digestive blow out occurs, it's okay. Just
slow down and simplify until things settle again.

>It really is a relief to see him eating again,
> (with Gusto), and now he sleeps and doesn't stare at me with those
woeful
> hungry eyes. His energy has zoomed up and he actually ran around
in huge
> circle sweeps in the yard, which I had never seen him do, now he
wants to
> run.
*****
This is fabulous! Talk about the right thing at the right time.
Congratulations.

> he doesn't want to eat anything if it is cold.
*****
Fine. Take it out earlier, take it out the night before. My dogs
eat anything but I rarely feed them food just out of the fridge.

I also tried giving him a fresh fish, (not Tilapia), but
> he was not interested in it at all - is there a preferred fish
most dogs
> enjoy or is an easy start?
*****
Raw sardines and small mackerel might be more interesting, also
consider trout or perch or other smallish fishies--even raw
anchovies. Or try catfish nuggets or quick frozen pollock, whiting
or cod if you don't mind not feeding whole fish.

Don't worry too much about fish. Sounds like you've got a good
amount of protein variety so if it takes a while to get him
interested in fish, 'tain't no big deal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

Welcome, Pam! I'm sure you'll be happy with your decision. This list-serve has been wonderfully helpful to me.

I have two mini-doxies that I have been raw-feeding since they came to live here at three months. They are sisters, but one is on the thin side (I recently wrote the list asking what to feed to put weight on her). The OTHER one is a little chunk, and I do worry about future back problems.

Lots and lots of exercise isn't an option for your guy right now, but I'm sure you'll be better off with a raw diet which gives your dog the nutrients he needs instead of kibble with a lot of extra, fattening junk in it.

I started with chicken, too, but no need to just feed backs -- my two can demolish a whole chicken in about three days. They do like everything fresh, so I break the bird up a little: usually, I start with wings which I cut at the joint so there's quite a bit of meat on the end, then thighs (detached the same way). The body, I just break into two pieces since there are two dogs (I wouldn't do this for one). What they don't eat, I pick up and refrigerate for their next meal. Since this isn't a restaurant and I work hard for my $, nothing gets thrown away: they eat it at successive meals until it's gone.

Game hen, or smaller birds, are probably their favorite food. Other stuff they love: beef shortribs, pork ribs cut any which way, and lamb (but avoid the large, weight-bearing bones). The chunky dog loves fish (I like tilapia, for environmental reasons), but the skinny one won't touch it. Turkey is not a favorite with them, but if it were, I would feed it. You'll read on the list that the bigger the piece of meat, the better and that's so true: turkey was one of the first meals these two ate when they were little, tiny pups, and I only "halved" it -- the chunk of meat was much bigger than both of them put together!

The list-serve has sold me on pork butts and picnic roasts for "meaty" meals, so I feed it, but that can be something of a power struggle: they like stuff with bone in it.

I would try pork, beef or lamb next, working one new thing at a time into your doxie's diet so that if something disagrees with him, you can figure out what it is. Of course, he will need organ meat, but I waited awhile to work that into my dogs' diet. They were already eating beef. lamb and pork with no problems when I started working organs into their diets.

I was advised to feed green tripe to the skinny dog to get some weight on her, so you might not want to overdo on that when you start feeding organs.

I never feed veggies as part of a meal, but if I am cooking and they act interested, I will share little pieces with them (I am vegetarian). They get the spines from lettuce, parsley stalks, bits of tomato, etc. Sometimes they eat a piece or two, sometimes they just chew on it a bit and make it into a big, salad-y mess on the kitchen floor.

Hope this helps! I am a relative "newbie" and not nearly as knowledgeable as the other people on this list, but I can attest to how well a mini-doxie can do on this diet.

Carolyn Ramamurti, Sophie and Elsie in Seattle

Pam Staley <pam@tlcnaturally.com> wrote:
ok....I've decided I'm going raw - we started yesterday - I have a 12
lb mini doxie that is probably at least 4lbs overweight - know that
does't sound like much - but its a LOT on this little guy - and due
to a back injury he had in July we have to get some weight off of
him. He just hurt himself again Sat and now can't put any weight on
his right hind foot and he yelps in pain when you pick him up
'wrong'. The vet has him on predizone (?) for the next few days to
ease the pain and then we'll see....I am hoping he doesn't need back
surgery - but we'll cross that bridge when we have to. Anyway, both
my dogs (my GS Moriah and doxie - Benson) love raw chicken -so we're
beginning with that. I've made a lot of calls this morning to various
local meat markets and none of them sell 'extra' meat that they would
actually not use - will look into the smaller grocery stores and see
if I can get day old or bags of backs or something - but for right
now I'm using what I have in my own freezer.

Anyway - I'm wondering if one type of food/organ/ect..would be better
at this point for my little doxie and if there are any of you out
there with doxies - do you add any glucosamine or anything? I'd sure
like to tackle this situation a little more naturally if possible.

thanks for listening....Pam
Missouri

---------------------------------
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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14. problems with cheese???
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))

I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw. What are
the problems that a dog may have. I need to convince my husband to
stop treating my dog with cheese . Barb&Reily

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12046

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. small intestine question
From: rach9876
1b. Re: small intestine question
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Newbie Here
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Newbie Here
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Just had o share this and a couple ?'s
From: kaebruney

4a. Re: newbie - with problems
From: m0v1efan
4b. Re: newbie - with problems
From: m0v1efan
4c. Re: newbie - with problems
From: Laurie Swanson

5. Constipation?
From: Shannon Hully

6. Turkey Questions
From: Greg Falken

7a. Re: RAW for a small chi puppy :)
From: Kelly

8a. Re: Feeding Heads
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Renate

9a. Re: Goat - how to order
From: costrowski75

10a. Lamb or Goat- any experiences?
From: Maggie Smith
10b. Re: Lamb or Goat- any experiences?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Re: Fishy stuff
From: Morledzep@aol.com

12a. Re: Just started three weeks ago...pit bull losing hair!
From: Morledzep@aol.com

13a. Re: I'm new with puppy
From: dancingmommy2002

14. New and just started
From: Virginia Snider

15. boneless meals/what to feed?
From: morkydzgrl

16. EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
From: Steve Gomes

Messages
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1a. small intestine question
Posted by: "rach9876" rach9876@yahoo.com rach9876
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

I found small intestine at an asian market and bought some. After i
bought it, I think I read in some previous posts that this prob would
not normally be eaten in the wild, but i will give it a try anyway. It
looks like it's in strips but there is what looks like fat on the
edges. Does anyone have any idea what this is? I am wondering if i
should trim it off?

Oh, and one more question, i read somewhere that raw deer bones can
easily splinter and therefore does not make a great RMB. This doesnt
sound right to me - does anyone have any insight? I've never fed deer
but would love to if and when i come accross it.

Thanks!

Rachel

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: small intestine question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:32 pm ((PDT))

"rach9876" <rach9876@...> wrote:
>
> I found small intestine at an asian market and bought some. After i
> bought it, I think I read in some previous posts that this prob would
> not normally be eaten in the wild, but i will give it a try anyway.
It
> looks like it's in strips but there is what looks like fat on the
> edges. Does anyone have any idea what this is? I am wondering if i
> should trim it off?
*****
They're intestines all cleaned up and pretty looking. Yes, that's
fat. You bought 'em, you should feed 'em. Let your dogs decide
whether you made a wise choice. At the very least these are
more "real" than the bleached white intestines sold as chitterlings.

My local Filipino meat market (a truly magical place) calls these
intenstines "end gut".

> Oh, and one more question, i read somewhere that raw deer bones can
> easily splinter and therefore does not make a great RMB. This doesnt
> sound right to me - does anyone have any insight?
*****
I suppose a dried out old thang might be brittle, but the deer bones
I've laid hands on have been--at worst--bare naked, but not dry and
splintery. Meaty deer necks are probably my favorite RMB to feed; the
necks are almost always fully consumed; shoulders, though less meaty,
are easy bones as well.

IMO the long bones are very similar to goat or lamb bones. Not
splintery when fresh.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi, PK, welcome to the group! I'm glad that raw has been helping your old boy with his
itchies. Have you tried giving him fish oil capsules? Though my newf mix pup is healthy
as a horse, he had a slightly off smell to his fur until I started giving him fish oil. It also
helps other dogs with dry and/or itchy skin.

For cleaning nasty teeth the best food I've found is anything with a good amount of skin
on. Pork shoulder and pork feet take a lot of work to tear into, but the bone isn't hard to
consume. Can you get rabbit for a reasonable price? That is a really good animal with
soft bones too, and if you can get it with fur and all (and get your boy to eat it) it would be
a really good "toothbrush."

Beef is generally too expensive for me to buy unless it is tongue or heart, but eventually
you might try some for another protein source. Cooking changes the protein structures in
meat so a dog that is allergic to cooked beef might not have any reaction to raw beef. I'd
wait on that experiment until you get his current itchies worked out, though.

Hope that answered your questions, don't hesitate to ask if you have more.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...> wrote:
> he has a terrible odor
> to him. His ears are a constant source of misery to him even though I
> can find nothing in them and he still itches (no yeast on or in him).
> Not nearly as bad as he used to but, still, far too much. And his
> teeth are gross. They are covered with brown tartar and when he
> kisses me I hold my breath for peril of my life his breath has never
> been so bad.
>
> It takes him a long time to get through a meal as he has to chew on a
> bone (chicken, turkey, lamb ribs) for a long time to get it done when
> he remembers how to eat that is. But chew and consume them he does.
> When we were cooking for him he had no tolerance for beef (made him
> itch) so he only gets calves liver/kidney/etc. once every 2 weeks

Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi, PK!
I think that you need to list EVERYTHING that you feed or give
your dog as supps or meds.
Look at it all critically; is it appropriate for him right now?

First of all, let me just say that less is more; I've learned to
review everything I'm doing for my dog(s) periodically, especially for
one who has problems. Its entirely possible, and has happened to me,
to be giving a supp or fall into a way of feeding or treating a dog -
and not remember how you arrived there! : (

I wouldn't start adding any supps or meds to your dog's plan of care
until you pare down and revise your current plan.

Brewer's yeast imo, is not a good thing to add - BY can make a dog
itchy, and yeast is that last thing you want to add to a carnivore's diet.

Just because your dog has shown symptoms of food intolerance to cooked
proteins doesn't mean that raw proteins will give the same problems.
The opposite, in fact; cooked proteins are significantly different in
composition than the raw natural proteins, less bioavailable and
digestible. Grains, additives and veggies are more likely to be the
culprits in a dog's diet to cause itchiness and food intolerance symptoms.

So far as diet;
1) You can smash bone into bits, if your dog is having trouble chewing
them. Put the portion in a plastic bag, wrap in an old kitchen towel,
and pound with a tenderizing mallet or the back of a cleaver until the
bone is small enough. Remember, you don't need much edible bone, 10%
is all. Most meals can be boneless.

2) Look at the meats you are buying; do they have any enhancements?
Additives can make some dogs itchy. Read the labels before you buy,
and don't get any products that say they are enhanced with seasoning
or flavorings, glazed, injected with salt solutions, have fluid added,
etc.

3) Introduce proteins you have been avoiding. Give them a week or more
for a trial. See what happens, judge whether to continue feeding or
not from your dog's responses.

4) Add more variety in organs, if you can. Spleen, tongue (usually fed
as meat), esophagus, tripe, sweetbreads (thymus & pancreas), brain.

5) You probably will have to brush his teeth yourself, since he can't
keep them clean with the foods he can manage to eat. You can use a
gauze pad wrapped around your finger to remove the soft plaque at
first, and a dental scaler to scrape the calculus away.
Advanced dental disease can cause systemic bodily inflammation and
organ failure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_(dental)
http://www.homedental.com/detailscaler.asp

6) Rethink the garlic use, or at least stop for now, since flea season
is mostly over.

Good quality probiotics and enzymes without inappropriate additives
can help a dog with digestive problems, given at the appropriate
times. But are you absolutely sure the probiotics are necessary? Did
you start giving them when you began raw, or when you began home
cooking? I'd ditch 'em, and not add them back into your dog's regimen
unless there is real need.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_enzyme#Pancreatic_enzymes

It might be helpful for you to do some research online about Canine
Cognitive Disfunction Syndrome or doggie Alzheimer's disease.
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art25417.asp
Allopathic medications, or alternative approaches may be able to help him.

I hope that some of this helps Jack, let us know what ensues.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I am sure these questions have been asked to death in one form or
> another but here they are again. I have been feeding my 15 year old
> Puddin Jack Russell raw for about a 6 months now.
<snip>
> As you can see I am confused and would appreciate any and all advice
> about making my good, old dog's last years as pleasant and happy as
> possible.
>
> Thanks,
>
> PK and Homey Jack

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Just had o share this and a couple ?'s
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:27 pm ((PDT))

Wow... it sounds like you got quite a treasure there.An antilope head,
parts and scraps! Those pics are great. I love it when the babies
think they have to kill their catch! *lol*

man... Where do you guys find all this good stuff? I'm having the
hardest time finding anything more than store cuts. :0(

Kae

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lauraanimal1" <lauraanimal1@...>
>
> ok I went out to the meat processors and got 2 antilope carcasses
> (sp?) some leg and foot bones that had a lot of meat still left on
> them , about 10 lbs in other meat scraps and a antilope head.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: newbie - with problems
Posted by: "m0v1efan" susanbrown@sbcglobal.net m0v1efan
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***
Andrea,
Thank you for responding. Magie is much better tonight. She didn't
eat all day just had some chicken broth and water. I felt so bad
that I am doing this wrong and was was tempted to go back on Innova,
but after reading archives today decided to give her a chicken
thigh/leg combo. She carried it around in the yard for about five
minutes. Then she finally she ate it. I haven't seen any stools
yet, but hopefully they will be back to normal. She has been playing
with Brie and running and not acting sick.
Man, learning this stuff is scary.
In my ignorance, I did buy the white stuff from the grocery store. I
thought I was giving the girls something wonderful. Okay, so I still
have LOTS to learn. I need to look for green tripe then.
I also bought gizzards, hearts, beef liver and was going to give
that... not now. But is that too much variety for her?
So much to learn - so far to go.
Thank you so much for your help.

Susie

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: newbie - with problems
Posted by: "m0v1efan" susanbrown@sbcglobal.net m0v1efan
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:21 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Kathy,
Thank you for responding.

Once I use up the mixed stuff in the freezer I am going to go with
the whole bird scenerio. We are giving the mixture in the mornings
and the leg/thighs in the evenings.
I went to the grocery store to buy a whole chicken,but they have all
been processed with the guts and necks removed! I'm going to go to
the asian market and look.
So do I just cut it in half and give it to the girls? Or I think I
read someone saying a whole chicken should do five feedings?

Both of my girls are around 70 pounds.

Thanks again,
Susie
(& Brie and Magie Moo)

Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: newbie - with problems
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:39 am ((PDT))

Hi Susie,

I'd hold off on the gizzards, heart, and liver until things get
stabilized and then add them in one at a time in small amounts so you
can see how things go. Stick with chicken for a bit (maybe a week or
two). Green tripe is only available online or direct from
farmers/butchers sometimes. It's not at any grocery store.

Hang in there. It will be fine. Just keep it simple, keep reading the
list and asking questions.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (6)
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5. Constipation?
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:21 pm ((PDT))

I just got my new rescue Greyhound boy (currently 76lbs, probably
about 5lbs overweight) and started him on raw. I intended to switch
him over slowly from the death-in-a-bag they call Old Roy's to raw
but he would have none of that. He walked into the kitchen, smelled
where the cats had eaten their little feathered bodies, and promptly
held up his nose in disgust at the horrible little pieces of ki**le I
tried to hand feed him.

Seeing as I wanted him on raw anyway I wasn't too upset to be
corralled into switching him immediately, I was just worried about
dire-rears for a day or two! ...Well I'm having the opposite
problem, oddly. His first raw meal was chicken drumstick (small) on
Saturday night. I've been giving him breast in the morning and
drumstick at night both days following that. He had a bowel movement
Saturday night (getting rid of the last of the ki**le from his
system) but has not done so since.

However he isn't squatting or straining or doing anything else to
indicate that he even has to go! I know I've read about this before
and I tried surfing the posts but couldn't come up with anything (of
course the splitting headache I've had for the past four hours isn't
helping much).

I figure maybe he's getting too much bone for now so maybe I ought to
cut back on that until thing start moving properly.

My question is this: How long do I continue to feed him and assume
it's just that he's eating less bulk and will take a little while to
work its way through his system?

On an aside, I'm glad my husband wasn't around for Darwin's dinner
tonight! He (the DH) is far less well-read on this diet so he tends
to worry more. Yesterday Darwin (the Greyhound) was a bit over-
enthusiastic about swallowing his bone and had to cough it back up to
make it smaller. My husband was on the verge of panic, saying: "He's
choking!". Poor guy would be rethinking the whole diet if he knew
Darwin had thrown up his whole dinner tonight. ...And I certainly
won't be telling him that I encouraged the dog to go ahead and eat it
again, but to kindly chew the bones a bit better this time! LOL
Hopefully he'll get the idea quickly. :-)

Shannon

Messages in this topic (1)
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6. Turkey Questions
Posted by: "Greg Falken" yahoo@falken.name gfalken
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

We haven't started feeding raw yet, for the simple reason that our
adopted Corgi doesn't arrive until Friday. We're researching food
sources now and our town has a turkey ranch that raises free-range
turkeys (Diestel Farms). What turkey parts should we ask about that
would be good for a 30-35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to start
out on as chicken? We also have a local market with a meat department.
Should we just ask them what parts they usually discard? The choices
seem a bit overwhelming.

Oh yes, one more thing. If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's
the best way to transition to a once a day diet? This is purely for our
convenience but it would sure make things easier.

Thanks for your help.

-Greg

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: RAW for a small chi puppy :)
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

On 9/17/07, gheletca_v <gheletca_v@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> I have a long hair Chihuahua that right now is almost 12 weeks old
> and 0.565 grams.

.565 grams? Isn't that .02 oz? I'm guessing that must be a typo? Based on
what I know, smaller chihuahuas are usually around 2-4 oz when they are born
and would be around 12-16 oz at 12 weeks. I don't remember how big my
girls were at that age, but I'm guessing a little over 1 pound (16-20 oz?).
They are now both right around 3 lbs as adults.

> - How much am I suppose to feed a puppy that is so small? She eats
> about 2 teaspoons of canned food or about 10 pieces of kibble …lol.

I'd feed 10% of her weight or however much she will eat (provided she
doesn't seem to be a huge piggy). I'd also feed her several times per day
to make sure her blood sugar doesn't drop. I hope you know the signs of low
blood sugar, if not, please familiarize yourself with them. Hopefully it
isn't something you'll need to deal with, but it can be rather scarey.

> - Are there any sites or forums where I can learn more about RAW
> feeding a small Chihuahua puppy?

There is a raw chihuahua list on yahoogroups, but from my experience you can
apply anything you hear on most any list to your dog...just know that she
will eat less at a time but more if you figure it as a percentage of her
body weight. Bigger adult dogs can sometimes eat 1-2% of their body weight,
she may end up eating closer to 4-5% or more.

> - Considering that she can't really chew on bones what can I give
> her? I can't find any chicken necks ….

I'd look for small animals - game hen, quail, rabbit, etc. You can also get
chicks or mice. Don't worry, before long she should have no problems with
chicken bones.

--
Kelly

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8a. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:49 pm ((PDT))

Renate <renate.tideswell@...> wrote:
>
> Just curious, those of you feeding ruminant's heads (presumably
including
> brains) aren't you afraid of 'mad cow disease'/kreutzfeld-jacob?
****
I do feed them when possible and I don't worry because there's no
evidence that BSE is transferrable to dogs. In the wild, wolves are
quite willing to dispatch the wounded and the infirm; research suggests
the incidence of Chronic Wasting Disease is reduced by wolves and
increases when wolves are for whatever reason no longer in the area.
Since there've been no reports of wolves dying from (or
even "catching") CWD, I am comfortable with the notion of feeding heads
to dogs. Obviously, if you are not satisfied that there is no danger,
do not feed them.

BSE (and CWD?) is transferrable to cats.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:46 am ((PDT))

Thank you Casey, Kathy and Chris,
Up until 2 years I ago I owned a sheep farm (I'm in Canada), and BSE made a
HUGE change in our business and lives. So I'm happy hearing your
responses. This is a big sheep/goat farming area so I expect to be using
those as a significant part of the doggies' diet (if I ever manage to take
the leapLOL) We've been testing the waters and none of them have any
problem eating any bits of anything that I cut off our food before cooking,
so I don't know why I'm hesitating. Keep thinking I need to learn more...
Renate

On 9/17/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Renate <renate.tideswell@...> wrote:
> >
> > Just curious, those of you feeding ruminant's heads (presumably
> including
> > brains) aren't you afraid of 'mad cow disease'/kreutzfeld-jacob?
> *
>
>
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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9a. Re: Goat - how to order
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:11 pm ((PDT))

"marblekallie" <marble@...> wrote:
>
> Hi:
>
>I have 4 mini dachshunds weighing an average of 10lbs -- some
> less, some more. I also live in an apartment in the city, so very
> large meals don't work well. How should I ask for it to be cut?
*****
Cool!
I have ordered goat cut into 4" - 6" hunks (for others, not for my
dogs!) which added .15/lb to the price but seems to work nicely for
those who preferred to feed smaller goat parts. I'd think that would
be a useful size even for your wee ones. Whatever hunk size you decide
on, the butcher should be able to run the goat though his band saw with
little effort.

Goat
> for me is the most successful of all red meat.
*****
For my dogs its a toss up between goat and venison, but lacking vension
(which is most of the time these days), goat is a welcome meat.
Chris O

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10a. Lamb or Goat- any experiences?
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi All,

I just got my first order of lamb thru our raw coop - my 2 Danes love
it!

I keep seeing references to goat - any comparisons to lamb or other
meats?

Thanks,
Maggie, Rufus and Oliver

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10b. Re: Lamb or Goat- any experiences?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:54 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/17/2007 8:39:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
redkeds@comcast.net writes:

I keep seeing references to goat - any comparisons to lamb or other
meats?

Maggie,

Goat is generally leaner that lamb or sheep.. other than that there is no
major difference that i can think of.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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11a. Re: Fishy stuff
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:45 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/17/2007 4:24:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
quahog@netnet.net writes:

Namely that if they're raw then their OK, but steer clear of cooked bones?

Dave,

that's pretty much true of ALL bones, regardless of the animal they come
from..

and remember, bones are not the focus of the diet.. they are a very small but
important part of the overall diet.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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12a. Re: Just started three weeks ago...pit bull losing hair!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:54 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/17/2007 5:25:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

I can't help but notice that my pit bull's hair is thinning in small
patches around her hind end. I am not ruling out her chewing on
herself because she had fleas (which I just got rid of). However,
could it be diet related, and if so, is that what the fish oil
capsules are for?

Steph,

Fish body oil or salmon oil is for providing O3's that storebought meat can't
provide. It can, and often does have the added benefit of adding some fat to
the diet and making the dogs skin soft and moist, and therefore making the
coat shiny.

I doubt your naked pit bull is caused by diet.. most likely it's just getting
over your flea problem and reacting to the heat. i have 2 nearly naked
akitas because of the recent heat waves..

Sometimes new raw dogs shed a little heavy and new healthy hair replaces it,
but i've never heard of any dogs getting naked because of it.

Another thing to look at with coat problems is the possibility of cushings
disease.. so if her hair doesn't grow back in a few weeks make a stop at the
vets office and ask about it.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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13a. Re: I'm new with puppy
Posted by: "dancingmommy2002" dancingmommy@sbcglobal.net dancingmommy2002
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:39 am ((PDT))

Thank you all for your response! We picked up our boy tonight and he
got his first chicken thigh when we settled in at home. He
absolutely loved it! I will do the math on the quantities and start
that tomorrow. Until I can get in a co-op I think I will be buying
meat daily! What a change from my terrier who only ate 1/2 lb a
day! Thank you all again for your help!

Susan

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Susan!
> Welcome!
> I'm not sure 'where you're at' with raw feeding since you're new to
> this group, so I'm going to post a link to the same post I use for
> new-to-raw newbies. You can just print it out, scan through the text
> and highlight whats relevant for you.
>
> Link; http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374
>
> You really want to get some more variety of protein, and also organs
> in their diet.
> Lis' List, in my recommendations, will help with that.
>
> Pups generally tolerate a greater variety sooner than older dogs do,
> but there isn't any problem with going slowly, either.
>
> The general guideline here is to feed 10% of the pup's estimated
IDEAL
> adult body weight daily, up until about 4mo. Then, feed 2-3% of the
> EIABW daily, in 2-3 meals a day until about 7-9 mo, then 2 meals
daily
> from about 9-12mo. After that, you can go to 1 meal a day, or every
> other day, or gorge 'n fast meals, or any combination of the above.
>
> There are people posting links to online sources of protein/organs
and
> also new and established coops and more informal buying agreements
by
> some individuals, so if you want to get in on some of that action,
do
> some searching in the archives, or post your general location in a
new
> topic and ask for interested people to respond.
>
> TC, and do let us know how you progress!
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
> > I am new to this group and am here to learn. I have a terrier
mix
> > that I have been feeding raw for 3 years now.
> <snip>
> Is his diet
> > varied enough?
> >
> > Now, for the new puppy. <snip> How do I transition him to meat?
How
> > much do I give him, and how often? He is 16 weeks old. Is the
> > current diet that I am giving my terrier good for him too? Just
in
> > larger quantities?
> <snip>
> > Thanks in advance!
> > Susan
> >
>

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14. New and just started
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:40 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I have a 11 mo old rescue Pug, who came from an unknown background.. I
have had him a month. When I first got him he was on cheap hard stuff, so I
tried upgrading it to a better brand.

He had runny stool and was going 4 x a day. He just started refusing to
eat. (I think he was hoping for something better and training me, lol, my
first dog)., so I talked to someone at the Pet Food store and she told me
she does a raw diet on her own dogs. Sounded good to me since I was fed up
with the dry and was saying he wants MEAT:-)

I started him with chicken and he gobbled it up, added some eggs, then beef.
Today he had Duck Hearts and was going crazy dancing around as soon as he
got a whiff. For treats he has been getting dehydrated Bison Hearts.

He seems to have more energy, and the "going problem" is now once a day and
quite normal looking. I am happy I was told about the raw diet and hope to
learn more. I am fortunate that I have a market that has meats/organs/fish
that is not too spendy. It really is a relief to see him eating again,
(with Gusto), and now he sleeps and doesn't stare at me with those woeful
hungry eyes. His energy has zoomed up and he actually ran around in huge
circle sweeps in the yard, which I had never seen him do, now he wants to
run.

A few questions: he doesn't want to eat anything if it is cold. Just
slightly warm is ok, but nothing out of the fridge - anyone else have this
with their dogs?. I also tried giving him a fresh fish, (not Tilapia), but
he was not interested in it at all - is there a preferred fish most dogs
enjoy or is an easy start?

Thanks in advance,

Virginia

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15. boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "morkydzgrl" ShankMa4@aol.com morkydzgrl
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:46 am ((PDT))

As I am reading and learning here (and watching my dogs poop), I
realize that many (maybe most) meals are boneless. When I first
started 1.5 months ago I was focused on bones because of the name of
the diet .... raw meaty bones.

Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That leaves
80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't talking more
about boneless meals?

Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?

Thank you!

Cindi

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16. EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
Posted by: "Steve Gomes" gomes@alamedanet.net stvgomes
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:47 am ((PDT))

We have a 7 year old EPI German Shepherd dog, on Pancreved, and she has
terrible gas. The situation has been on-going for two years. We have
been prey-model feeding for a couple of weeks now, in hopes of
improving the situation - but to no avail.

On behalf of us and our houseguests, we are seeking any suggestions
anyone may have.

Thank you.

Steve

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