Feed Pets Raw Food

Saturday, December 29, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12433

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hi everyone!
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Laura Atkinson
1c. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Heather
1d. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Sandee Lee
1e. Re: Hi everyone!
From: T Smith
1f. bone
From: Heather
1g. Re: bone
From: Sandee Lee
1h. Re: bone
From: Ania Tysarczyk
1i. Re: Hi everyone!
From: carnesbill

2a. New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Heather
2b. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Sandee Lee
2c. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Laura Atkinson
2d. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Heather

3a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: Chicken Allergy
From: nanack909

5. Our first Turkey!
From: Karen Ditton

6a. Re: Angel & Holly's first Raw meal/multiple dogs
From: homesforallpets

7a. Re: vets
From: deb&Earl veil
7b. Re: vets
From: Heather
7c. Re: vets
From: mathamgri

8a. Re: frozen??
From: joan

9a. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
From: Lynda McLellan

10. Chew Toys etc
From: pgmgolfcoach

11. pro-raw vets
From: Monica Hughes

12. New Member intro with question
From: nanettechols


Messages
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1a. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> Uh, not quite. They do NOT need to have edible bone every day.
> Don't lock yourself into that kind of rigid feeding.

When the dog has the dental problems this one does, he certainly does
need editable bone every day at least until the problem has cleared
itself up. He will always need bone more than once a week.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (22)
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1b. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:34 pm ((PST))

If you say so.

Bones, in and of themselves, don't provide the cleaning. Feeding things
with tough skins, such as pork picnics will also help with dental cleaning.
Not every tooth comes in contact with a bone...it's the whole chewing
process that cleans the teeth.

If a dog has majorly severe dental issues, then perhaps a cleaning may be
the way to go to improve his health quickly.

But, the poster I was referring to said, without qualification, that edible
bone was required daily. That's what I was responding to. My apologies for
not making it crystal clear.

On Dec 29, 2007 2:20 PM, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Uh, not quite. They do NOT need to have edible bone every day.
> > Don't lock yourself into that kind of rigid feeding.
>
> When the dog has the dental problems this one does, he certainly does
> need editable bone every day at least until the problem has cleared
> itself up. He will always need bone more than once a week.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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1c. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

Laura, please explain to me then the purpose of the calcium:phosphorus
ratio of 1:1 or 2:1. Doesn't that mean equal bone and meat or more
bone than meat? Maybe I just don't understand it. Here is the link for
the FAQ I got my understanding of bone/meat ratio from.

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#ratio
I have also read the thing that cleans teeth is abrasion, such as from
bones. I don't believe meats or skin provide that. The OP's dog has
not been fed much bone from what I can see.. is 8 years old and raw
fed for 5. Racing Greyhounds often are fed mainly a diet of raw meats
and have terrible teeth coming into the rescue. One of the main
benefits from feeding raw is that the RMBs clean the teeth and keep
the mouth healthy. Seeing as this dog's mouth is not very healthy and
not fed much bone, it only makes sense to me that bone should be fed
everyday to keep the teeth clean and balance out the phosphorus. I
could have it ALL wrong though.

Heather

Messages in this topic (22)
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1d. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

Heather,

If you feed according to the prey model, which is the natural diet of a
carnivore, all of those ratios are going to be perfect. That means lots and
lots of meat (up to 80%) and little edible bone (approximately 10%). With
only 10% bone required in the overall diet, you can see bone does not need
to be fed every day. Meat, fat, skin, hair, gristle, etc. all do a fine job
of flossing and cleaning teeth. The key is to fed nice large portions that
require some work.

Ignore the njboxer site....it's based on the BARF philosophy which is not an
appropriate diet. There is no prey in existence that is made up of 50%
bone, 50% meat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Heather" <newbeginnings06@gmail.com>


Laura, please explain to me then the purpose of the calcium:phosphorus
ratio of 1:1 or 2:1. Doesn't that mean equal bone and meat or more
bone than meat? Maybe I just don't understand it. Here is the link for
the FAQ I got my understanding of bone/meat ratio from.
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#ratio
I have also read the thing that cleans teeth is abrasion, such as from
bones. I don't believe meats or skin provide that.

Messages in this topic (22)
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1e. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:01 pm ((PST))

The only reason we do add bone daily for our 3 Danes is because they need
it.
The other 6 do just fine with a regular meat meal & ocassional bone.
I just had to adjust their diets to fit their specific needs.
But like they are saying, from what I gather, it is not a necessity. My
Lhasas do fine with a burger meal & no bones....
Trina
Still new to raw

On Dec 29, 2007 3:23 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> Heather,
>
> If you feed according to the prey model, which is the natural diet of a
> carnivore, all of those ratios are going to be perfect. That means lots
> and
> lots of meat (up to 80%) and little edible bone (approximately 10%). With
> only 10% bone required in the overall diet, you can see bone does not need
> to be fed every day. Meat, fat, skin, hair, gristle, etc. all do a fine
> job
> of flossing and cleaning teeth. The key is to fed nice large portions that
> require some work.
>
> Ignore the njboxer site....it's based on the BARF philosophy which is not
> an
> appropriate diet. There is no prey in existence that is made up of 50%
> bone, 50% meat.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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1f. bone
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:59 pm ((PST))

Thank you for clearing that up Sandee. I learn something new everyday!
I started out doing the BARF model, with vegetables once a week and
supplements, etc. I've always been afraid of not feeding enough
calcium to balance out the phosphorus in the meats and maybe doing
some harm. I feed boneless/low bone meals once or twice a week. Is
that still feeding too much bone?

Heather

Messages in this topic (22)
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1g. Re: bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:16 pm ((PST))

I would say most likely you are feeding too much bone. What exactly are you
feeding, Heather?

Sandee & the Dane Gang


From: "Heather" <newbeginnings06@gmail.com>


Thank you for clearing that up Sandee. I learn something new everyday!
I started out doing the BARF model, with vegetables once a week and
supplements, etc. I've always been afraid of not feeding enough
calcium to balance out the phosphorus in the meats and maybe doing
some harm. I feed boneless/low bone meals once or twice a week. Is
that still feeding too much bone?


Messages in this topic (22)
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1h. Re: bone
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

Hi Sandee,

What would too much bone in the diet do?

I try to mimic the amount you would find in a wild small animal or
bird, but I probably feed more than that feeding a very boney meal 2-
3 times a week. Though too much bone has not be a concern to me. But
I keep hearing about too much bone in the diet, so I thought you'd
be a good person to ask.

Ania


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> I would say most likely you are feeding too much bone. What
exactly are you
> feeding, Heather?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>


Messages in this topic (22)
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1i. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> If a dog has majorly severe dental issues, then perhaps a
> cleaning may be the way to go to improve his health quickly.
>
> But, the poster I was referring to said, without
> qualification, that edible
> bone was required daily.

The post you were replying to was replying to a post about a dog
with very heavy plaque who had been fed a homemade diet of meat and
organs with no bone for a few years I think. The original poster
had stated that she had JUST begun feeding a rib bone once a week.
The post you were replying to was written in that context. In that
context she/he made a correct statement. Often when you are
replying to a post you have to take into consideration the thread
and what is going on in it.

The issues the orginal dog has will probably clear up in a month or
two without intervention. Even if it's slower, avoiding anesthesia
is very worth the few weeks wait. At the very least an attempt
should be made before resorting to a cleaning at the vet.

Now, back to your first statement in this post. The dog has these
problems because he wasn't fed bones in a long time. Simply feeding
bones as part of the diet would have eliminated the whole problem.
No, healthy dogs don't need bone every day but they need more than
one rib bone a week.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (22)
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2a. New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Heather" sansdawn@yahoo.com sansdawn
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:29 pm ((PST))

Hello Everyone,
My name is Heather and I live in NH with my Darling Husband, Son and 2
Great Danes. Emmee we have had the longest, she is currently my
Service Dog, Shelly is our rescue girl and newest family member. After
being a SAHM for 3 years, I finaly got back to the working field, and
I'm finding some difficulties with keeping up with the raw diets :( We
currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
and all suggestions!!

Dane Hugs,
Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:36 pm ((PST))

Hi Heather,

Well, you're either going to need a freezer so you can stock up...or stop at
the store a few times per week after work! :)) I couldn't live without
freezers...I have several! :) But then I live in the middle of nowhere so
take advantage of sales and buy by the caseload!

What have you been feeding your girls????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Heather" <sansdawn@yahoo.com>
My name is Heather and I live in NH with my Darling Husband, Son and 2
Great Danes. Emmee we have had the longest, she is currently my
Service Dog, Shelly is our rescue girl and newest family member. After
being a SAHM for 3 years, I finaly got back to the working field, and
I'm finding some difficulties with keeping up with the raw diets :( We
currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
and all suggestions!!


Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:38 pm ((PST))

Here's something that has served me well in situations like this:

It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

On Dec 29, 2007 2:25 PM, Heather <sansdawn@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,I'm finding some difficulties with keeping up with the raw
> diets :( We
> currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
> talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
> and all suggestions!!
>
> Dane Hugs,
> Heather


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2d. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Heather" sansdawn@yahoo.com sansdawn
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:59 pm ((PST))

Hi Sandee,

Both girls are fed a combination of chicken, lamb or goat (whichever
the local slaughterhouse is butchering) along wtih some organs. I
have to go really light on the organs, both girls get diarrhea
easily. Both girls prefer things to be frozen, and Shelly will vomit
if given raw meat, so I get to just pull something from the freezer
and drop it outside on the deck! I did offer both girls the turkey
heart while I was getting Thanksgiving dinner ready, Emmee walked
away, Shelly actually wrinkled her nose up at it. :::shrugs::: Both
dogs are given supplements for joints also. That is about it, I
don't really measure and weigh things, I just keep an eye on how they
look, so far so good. Neither are too fat and Shelly has come a long
way since we got her. She spent 3 months in a Humane Society that
was feeding her puppy kibble, and they couldn't understand why she
had such bad diarrhea and was losing weight?? I'm sure they did what
they thought was best. When I took her back for a visit, they
couldn't believe the difference. I'll have to post before and after
pics, along with pics of Emmee!!


Laura...I love the suggestion, but that wouldn't fly with my
husband!!! LOL I'd get yelled at cause I didn't get a good enough
deal or something!!! I do have to remember that saying though...hehe

Dane Hugs,
Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <onlyzombiecat@...> wrote:
>
> What should I do to make sure she gets a complete diet? Are
> there some bones she could handle or might she need a
> supplement if we go totally raw for her?

I think she could eat chicken wings and necks for bone. She may not
chew them in the beginning but she will learn how pretty quickly.
There are lots of dogs on the list with few teeth who do just fine
with bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "nanack909" dblack@cfl.rr.com nanack909
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:26 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nanack909" <dblack@> wrote:
> >
> > OK. I will keep him off of chicken, but would'nt he stop
scratching in a month IF it is a chick. sensitivity?
Right now he is gnawing on a hugh turkey wing, came from the same
meat packer the chick came from, why in the heck would he leave
Chick leg quarters all day and they have much more meat than turk.
wings?
I am sure I am not hearing the scratching as much today, and when
this dog scratches you can hear it for miles. Stopping chick is the
only change in his diet, and today makes 6 days.
And thanks for your input,
Nancy & GSD Kobe

> > >> Yes, I think it is. I don't think one thing had anything to
do with
> the other. I don't believe dogs have a mystical power to
> understand, "if i eat this, it will cause me to itch." Heck, most
> people don't have that ability. :) :) :)
> .
>
> My guess is that he had rather have whatever it is you feed him
when
> he refuses chicken. He has learned, "if I hold out, something
> better will be offered."
>
>
>
> Well, hold on to it for now. It won't be long before you will
know
> for sure and once you determine it's not the chicken causing the
> itching, insist that he eat it. You are in charge of the diet,
not
> him. :) :) :)
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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5. Our first Turkey!
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:00 pm ((PST))

OK. I'm so pleased I just had to tell you all!!!

For our third protein I chose turkey, largely because I was able to get a
good deal on some naturally raised all natural ones. :-)

I cut one in half (a 10 lb bird, so 5 lb halves) and set it down for the
dogs Thursday night. They both sniffed and licked, but didn't eat much. I
did cut a few bites of the breast off so the puppy wouldn't go hungry.
Yesterday morning I offered them again and they were more enthusiastic,
although I still ended up helping the puppy.

Tonight I took Kaiser, my older guy, out for a walk just before dinner.
After pooping he shook himself just a bit, and then as though discovering
how good it felt gave himself a great big full body shake! I swear he's
acting like he feels younger every day!

As soon as we got back inside he headed for his feeding spot and I fed him
the rest of his turkey and he finished it! It was amazing to watch him
crunch through the big leg bone! (Made me glad he likes us!) I'm sure his
teeth got a nice cleaning!

After dinner he wanted lots of pets and cuddles. I think he was telling me
he's glad I finally figured out how to feed him!!!

Karen

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Angel & Holly's first Raw meal/multiple dogs
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Congrats! Sounds like things went well!
>
> I'm new to feeding multiple dogs so I don't know what to say about
> that. I think I would just want to make sure they aren't stressed
> while eating, and that each dog is getting the right amount and one
> isn't getting too much while the other doesn't get enough.

Thanks! Today they did the same only Holly insisted she needed a big
piece, lol! Angel sat watching her chew on it with her head tilted
the way dogs do when they are listening to you talk. She looked at me
and whined a couple of times and when Holly was all done Angel sniffed
her all over looking at me with a kind of "where'd it go?" look! It
was adorable. Still no fighting :)

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: vets
Posted by: "deb&Earl veil" deb_earl_veil@yahoo.com deb_earl_veil
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:01 pm ((PST))

We recently changed vets because first the office was sold and the new vet's english was really hard to understand and he also read me the riot act for choosing to feed my dogs raw, I even said to him, "oh, so you would rather I fed him a kibble that peoples dogs died because they ate?" needless to say, he didn't have much to say nor did we ever go back. My new vet said she does not know alot about the BARF diet, but that she is trying to learn more about it and anything I can give ehr would be appreciated. She also said she does have a few clients who have there dogs on BARF as well as ones that have recently changed to, and that those are some of the dogs that are in the best of health. She said, she would rather not have someone need to bring there dog to the vet because it was sick. So I am lucky. I have given her some info that I have and she was really appreciative of that. My thought is, if a vet or doc is gonna go an chew meout for a choice without having knowledge
to back it up, I am going to find another vet!

Blessed Be
Deb


Blessed Be
Deb and Earl

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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7b. Re: vets
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:59 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:
> I am very curious if there has been a stud done on how many times
that raw fed, min. vaccinated dogs or, not vaccinated at all dogs
actually have made to Vets. I strongly suspect the visits are very low
compared to kibble fed dogs, therefore there is not much income to be
had from our dogs, so naturally our diet would be attacked as being no
good.

There would be no funding for a study like that.. as most are funded
by large pet food companies that seek to "discover" if raw fed dogs or
kibble fed are more healthy. Since no one in the raw (non-commercial)
community makes money when they educate others about proper nutrition,
there is none to be put up for a study on raw. Just alone, the Rabies
Challenge Fund needs 1.25 million for it's 5 and 7 year study on the
DOI for the rabies vaccine. I cannot imagine the amount of money
needed to study numerous dogs for their lifetime on a raw diet.

Heather


Messages in this topic (16)
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7c. Re: vets
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

---
>You know what gets me about this? Shouldn't we be more concerned
about why our foods are contaminated in the first place? Obviously,
every time we cook up a chicken for our family, we are handling a
contaminated piece of meat. It would seem that this would be a
problem for everyone who handles meat, not just those of us who feed
raw.

Hannah

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Renate <renate.tideswell@>
> wrote:
> >
> > She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago
> > proving that raw fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh,
> > but kibble fed dogs don't.
>
> >
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>


Messages in this topic (16)
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8a. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "joan" joanlante@yahoo.ca joanlante
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joan" <joanlante@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi...I'm a little new at this and my friend picked up some boxes of
> > frozen butcher scraps...now one box seems to be a mix of
bones...the
> > other sawed beef? and another sawed porc???
>
> Hi Joan,
> I would be more concerned over the box of bones. Most of the bones
> that i have seen at the meat locker are bare naked bones or darn close
> to it. Unless the bones are substantially different than the ones i'm
> use to seeing, i would be hesitant to feed them. KathyM
>

Kathy you were rigth...in the middle of the night one of my dogs
started pucking and I ran upstairs to find nothing but 2 pieces of
sawed not chewed bone on the carpet...I think I will be staying away
fox the bone boxes or will thaw so I can sorta see if there is any
dangers..good thing he pucked it because that size of bone would not of
come out of his rear end without damage...god I hope this doesn't
happen again...

joan

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
Posted by: "Lynda McLellan" lyndam950@telus.net lyndam22
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:13 pm ((PST))

My Dane guy will also swallow a whole chicken quarters or a narrow rack of ribs. So I feed him semi-frozen and he chews it up well. He also loves chewing nice meaty bone-sicles. My MT buries them if they are too cold. LOL!
Lynda

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10. Chew Toys etc
Posted by: "pgmgolfcoach" pgmgolfcoach@yahoo.com pgmgolfcoach
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:59 pm ((PST))

Hi There,

I am a soon to be new dog owner. Have had family dogs. But this is my
first puppy with husband. Our two cats are fed a RMB diet with sides
of organs etc.

And we plan to feed the puppy that, likely start her the day we get
her, cold turkey from the kibble.

I have 2 questions,

With a raw diet what difference is their between feeding a puppy and
an adult? Its so easy to find info regarding the awful kibble diet,
but not so much with raw feeding to puppies.

And what are some healthy appropriate toys for her especially for
chewing while teething? What have you had positive experiences with
in the toy department? Nylabones, Kongs etc.

TIA
Callista

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. pro-raw vets
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

I am not sure if this question is appropriate for the list, but I hope so, and I hope someone can help me out.

I found a website listing "pro-raw" and "OK with raw" vets nationwide. Where I live in Colorado, there are no vets listed as "pro-raw." I could go with several of the "OK with raw" vets, but would really like one that is pro-raw. Are there are any Colorado people out there who have a pro-raw vet? If so, could you email me and let me know who your vet is, if you're willing to share? :) I live in the Denver area.

Incidentally, I picked up chicken leg quarters for 60 cents# today at Target! Hormone and antibiotic free. (It was the last package, though!) Who woulda thunk it? :)

Monica



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12. New Member intro with question
Posted by: "nanettechols" nanettechols@gmail.com nanettechols
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:39 pm ((PST))

Hi,
I live in St. Paul, MN USA

I have two St. Bernards and one St. Something along with two cats. One
of the Saints is a foster. We started our two dogs this week on
chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves everything, one
is very picky.

So far not too much upset. My question:

My meat connection is going to be slaughtering a ewe - mutton. Is this
okay for the dogs?

Thanks for all your expertise.

Nanette
St. Paul

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12432

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: vets
From: judy tallant
1b. Re: vets
From: ginny wilken
1c. Re: vets
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: vets
From: Laura Atkinson
1e. Re: vets
From: Karen Ditton
1f. Re: vets
From: carnesbill
1g. Re: vets
From: Karen Ditton
1h. Re: vets
From: Sandee Lee
1i. Re: vets
From: Anna Labriola
1j. Re: vets
From: Loraine Jesse

2a. Re: Types of edible bone
From: adkjoe17
2b. Re: Types of edible bone
From: Sandee Lee
2c. Re: Types of edible bone
From: judy tallant
2d. Re: Types of edible bone
From: Yasuko herron

3a. feeding large and the next day
From: DebiC
3b. Re: feeding large and the next day
From: katkellm
3c. Re: feeding large and the next day
From: Ania Tysarczyk

4a. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Laura Atkinson

5a. Re: Teething and bones
From: Laura Atkinson
5b. Re: Teething and bones
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Chicken Allergy
From: carnesbill

7. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
From: deb&Earl veil

8a. Re: Angel & Holly's first Raw meal/multiple dogs
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
From: Kim
9b. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
From: Ania Tysarczyk


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: vets
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:11 am ((PST))

This is a very typical response. A case of vets having too much
scientific training to be helpful, IMO.

On Dec 29, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Renate wrote:

> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago...

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: vets
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))


On Dec 29, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Renate wrote:

> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving
> that raw
> fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't.
> And she
> told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs as therapy
> dogs
> cause they can be dangerous to ill people. I said why should I be
> more
> concerned about salmonella than ecoli and got another lectureLOL
> Has anyone heard of this study, or have any idea why this could be?

Total crap, not worthy of rebuttal, even. Don't worry about it. Tons
of us live in very close contact with rawfed dogs, and nobody's ill.
I'm absolutely sure there are rawfed therapy dogs as well. Think for
yourself: a dog with gleaming teeth, no bad breath, no coat odor, no
really obnoxious poop - is this an animal that will make you sick to
be around? Heck, we should be so healthy.


ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


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Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: vets
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:49 am ((PST))

Hi Renate,

That is just more nonsense! Salmonella is everywhere...and found in the gut
and stool of healthy dogs (and people) regardless of diet!

Isn't it amazing they can look at a dog and be impressed with how they have
changed, how healthy they look, etc., but they hear that evil RAW word and
turn into raving maniacs?????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Renate" <renate.tideswell@gmail.com>


>
> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving that
raw
> fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't. And
she
> told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs as therapy dogs
> cause they can be dangerous to ill people. I said why should I be more
> concerned about salmonella than ecoli and got another lectureLOL
> Has anyone heard of this study, or have any idea why this could be?

Messages in this topic (13)
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1d. Re: vets
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Heck, she's so allfired ready to disbelieve the evidence in front of her,
let HER cough up the study for you. Bet she can't...or won't.

On Dec 29, 2007 9:49 AM, Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been raw feeding three months now. Took Russell to the vet today (he
> was a rescue with epilepsy and in poor condition). The vet was amazed.
> She
> said his condition was absolutely perfect! I told her I was raw feeding
> and
> I got a lecture (never did know when to keep my mouth shut)
>
> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving that
> raw
> fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't. And
> she
> told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs as therapy dogs
> cause they can be dangerous to ill people. I said why should I be more
> concerned about salmonella than ecoli and got another lectureLOL
> Has anyone heard of this study, or have any idea why this could be?
> --
> Renate
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


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Messages in this topic (13)
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1e. Re: vets
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving that raw
fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't.

*** I'd have asked her for the details of the study. who did it, etc or for
a copy of it. I find that a lot of times people will say "there was this
study" but can't back up that statement when asked to produce the study.
(I'm new to raw, so haven't done this in context, but I've done this in
other contexts and bet it's no different here.) Or. if the study was done
you can read it and find out the exact details. Many studies are done in
such a biased manor that they produce the results that whoever did the study
wanted regardless of what the real facts are. Some use a lot of technical
language so it can be a vocabulary building exercise too! :-)

Karen

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1f. Re: vets
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Renate <renate.tideswell@...>
wrote:
>
> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago
> proving that raw fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh,
> but kibble fed dogs don't.

The study is exactly what she said it was. I believe it was the one
done at Ohio State. However, the purpose of the study was to prove
that raw fed dogs shed salmonella in thier stools and kibble fed
dogs don't. Whenever you have a study that is working towards a
known outcome, you can always make it prove that known outcome.

Maybe raw fed dogs do have more salmonella in their stools. Who
knows for sure? If you pick up stools with bare hands and then put
your hands in your mouth before washing, it MIGHT be a problem, then
again it might not. I would think e-coli would be more of a
problem. As long as you wash your hands after you touch poop, you
are ok. Same with poop from all animals including humans.

After 5 years of feeeding raw, and hanging around several raw
feeding lists and reading thousands of posts, I can't remember any
person who caught salmonella or e-coli from a raw fed dog or the
stools of a raw fed dog.

> And she told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs
> as therapy dogs cause they can be dangerous to ill people.

Again, I have never heard of one single person getting sick from a
raw fed dog in any way.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (13)
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1g. Re: vets
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

OK. This got my curiosity up, so I did a quick Google search. Here's what I
found!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295

IF this is the study the vet was referring to, then I have a bunch of
problems with it.

#1 - The study was only 20 dogs. That is way too small a sample to prove
anything.

#2 - The raw fed dogs were fed a BARF diet including vegetables. So I don't
see how that proves anything about dogs fed the prey model diet. MAYBE
those un-digestible veggies interfered with the dogs' digestion. (Gee. does
that sound too obvious???)

#3 - Oh. this is good. :-) I found this quote:

Is it possible to get Salmonella from our pets? Yes, but it is important to
look at

how this transmission occurs. Approximately 36% of healthy dogs and 17% of
healthy

cats carry Salmonella in their digestive tract and therefore may shed the
bacteria in their

stool (4).

4. Hand, M.S., Thatcher, C.D., Remillard, R.L., and Roudebush, P. (2000)
Small

Animal Clinical Nutrition. Mark Morris Institute. Pg. 36-42,188.

Sooooo. if 36% of healthy dogs shed salmonella in their stools and the study
on the barf fed dogs only came up with 30%... hmmmm.

Just to be safe I will not eat any of my dogs poop!!! ;-)

Karen

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1h. Re: vets
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:07 pm ((PST))

Oh good article. The one I was thinking about was a bit different, but
admitted dogs fed kibble also had salmonella in their stools...but of course
they recommended feeding kibble! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Karen Ditton" <karenditton@urassociation.com>


> OK. This got my curiosity up, so I did a quick Google search. Here's what
I
> found!
>
>
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295

Messages in this topic (13)
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1i. Re: vets
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:55 pm ((PST))


>
> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving
that raw
> fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't.
And she
> told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs as therapy
dogs
> cause they can be dangerous to ill people. I said why should I be
more
> concerned about salmonella than ecoli and got another lectureLOL
> Has anyone heard of this study, or have any idea why this could be?


First off, I think you need a new vet. Secondly, my understanding of
the studies are that raw and kibble fed dogs BOTH have salmonella in
their stool. Thirdly, for her to condemn your dogs as "dangerous" to
the population is insulting and offensive.

My vet is very excited to be seeing the third generation of minimally
vaccinated, raw fed dogs. I have fed Khan a stinking ham hock in
front of her(to keep him still and quiet.) I would be looking for a
new vet today. They are out there.

Anna and Khan (9 mo old brown doberman)

Messages in this topic (13)
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1j. Re: vets
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:55 pm ((PST))


As in anything in life you do your best to keep things clean, such as washing down your counters (I do use a little bleach) and picking up the dog poop. How do you think all those millions of Chicken, Turkey, Beef, Pig etc, Farmers manage to exisit in this life without carrying disease all over the place. Farmers and their Families do leave their farms and get involved in all sorts of activities and I don't ever recall anyone going on and on about their livestock affecting and or, spreading salmonella, e-coli, etc.
The fact is more and more people are realizing that allot of Vets are more concerned about their income than they are about the animals they care about and that they tend to treat symtoms, instead of getting to the root of the problem.
I am very curious if there has been a stud done on how many times that raw fed, min. vaccinated dogs or, not vaccinated at all dogs actually have made to Vets. I strongly suspect the visits are very low compared to kibble fed dogs, therefore there is not much income to be had from our dogs, so naturally our diet would be attacked as being no good.
Loraine Jesse
www.rothburgrottweilers.com


To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: carnesw@bellsouth.netDate: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 20:36:26 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: vets


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Renate <renate.tideswell@...> wrote:>> She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago> proving that raw fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh,> but kibble fed dogs don't.The study is exactly what she said it was. I believe it was the one done at Ohio State. However, the purpose of the study was to prove that raw fed dogs shed salmonella in thier stools and kibble fed dogs don't. Whenever you have a study that is working towards a known outcome, you can always make it prove that known outcome.Maybe raw fed dogs do have more salmonella in their stools. Who knows for sure? If you pick up stools with bare hands and then put your hands in your mouth before washing, it MIGHT be a problem, then again it might not. I would think e-coli would be more of a problem. As long as you wash your hands after you touch poop, you are ok. Same with poop from all animals including humans.After 5 years of feeeding raw, and hanging around several raw feeding lists and reading thousands of posts, I can't remember any person who caught salmonella or e-coli from a raw fed dog or the stools of a raw fed dog.> And she told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs> as therapy dogs cause they can be dangerous to ill people.Again, I have never heard of one single person getting sick from a raw fed dog in any way.Bill Carneshttp://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htmFeeding Raw since October 2002"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"Dr. Tom Lonsdale


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Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Types of edible bone
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:11 am ((PST))

Thanks Sandee, I'm only feeding chicken for the bone and would like to
find another source, what types of pork cuts have lighter edible bones?

Joe

Sandee Lee wrote:
> You probably don't need to add bone if you are feeding mostly
chicken. But
> pork and fish would be good sources if necessary.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...>
>
>
> What are some other types of edible bones besides chicken. Most of
> the beef bones are too hard to eat and lamb ribs are pretty expensive.
> What other ways can I ad bone to red meat? I use chicken mostly but
> would like to find another source of bone.
>


Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: Types of edible bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:54 am ((PST))

Just about anything pork...slabs of ribs, various roasts...some of those
bones may not be totally edible for a puppy but they sure can make a dent in
them. Meanwhile they will get lots of nice red meat and fat!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@yahoo.com>


Thanks Sandee, I'm only feeding chicken for the bone and would like to
find another source, what types of pork cuts have lighter edible bones?


Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: Types of edible bone
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

Fish, turkey, lamb, duck, goose, oxtail.

On Dec 29, 2007, at 11:54 AM, Sandee Lee wrote:

> I'm only feeding chicken for the bone and would like to
> find another source, what types of pork cuts have lighter edible
> bones?

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2d. Re: Types of edible bone
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

>what types of pork cuts have lighter edible bones?

I think pork ribsare softest among pork category. Next will be neck bone of pork.And hardest will be pork feet but edible,make dog tired.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. feeding large and the next day
Posted by: "DebiC" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!Question about feeding large

I have a tendency to feed large meals to my JRTs. Either a chicken quarter, a lb of hamburger each or a large heart, you know so that they can gorge.

A lot of times they aren't interested in food the next day. I'll offer them but the meals are turned down.

Should I leave it out for them to pick at or should I give them say an hour then remove the food. Its cool here now so leaving it out isn't the issue it is in the summer.

Debi, 2 Jacks and an App

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: feeding large and the next day
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@...> wrote:
> Should I leave it out for them to pick at or should I give them say
an hour then remove the food. Its cool here now so leaving it out
isn't the issue it is in the summer.

Hi Debi,
When i feed gorge meals in the winter i never pick the stuff up.
Before i feed the hunk of whatever, i determine how many days food it
is and that is all they got get for x amount of days. Sometimes they
finish early, and rest a couple of days. Sometimes, they stretch it
out longer than i would have expected. Just depends. This is just
how i do it, and it works out well for my 3 dogs. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: feeding large and the next day
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:55 pm ((PST))

I would not feed them at all the next day.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@...> wrote:
>
> Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!Question about feeding large
>
> I have a tendency to feed large meals to my JRTs. Either a
chicken quarter, a lb of hamburger each or a large heart, you know
so that they can gorge.
>
> A lot of times they aren't interested in food the next day. I'll
offer them but the meals are turned down.
>
> Should I leave it out for them to pick at or should I give them
say an hour then remove the food. Its cool here now so leaving it
out isn't the issue it is in the summer.
>
> Debi, 2 Jacks and an App
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:16 pm ((PST))

Uh, not quite. They do NOT need to have edible bone every day. Don't lock
yourself into that kind of rigid feeding. They need roughly 10% edible bone
(not a hard and fast number, but one that will show you how much we tend to
overfeed bone).

On Dec 28, 2007 8:44 PM, Heather <newbeginnings06@gmail.com> wrote:

> From what I gathered, you are only feeding boneless meats and organs
> currently and feeding a meaty rib once a week? If so, he needs to have
> bone everyday not just once a week.
> Heather
>
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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5a. Re: Teething and bones
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

Nope, just keep doing what you're doing. The additional bone won't hurt
them, but they don't *need* it. When mine are really teething, they won't
eat the bone, they'll strip all of the meat off of anything and leave the
bone...usually when those molars are breaking through.

On Dec 29, 2007 9:21 AM, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> I do have a question. My pups are 4 months and have been fed twice a day
> since about 12 wks. In the morning they have chicken or, Turkey pieces and
> the evening usually beef, pork or, heart with varies organ pieces (liver,
> kidney) added a few times a week, the odd time they will get eggs or, canned
> fish. They are teething like mad now so I have been offering them pork
> necks, which they are munching down big time. Will they be okay with this
> additional bone? Is it possible that they would need additional bone during
> the teething stage? They are a large breed, so I want to make sure I am not
> messing up here.
> Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Teething and bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...>
wrote:

> Will they be okay with this additional bone?

Sure. Lots of people feed pork necks.

> Is it possible that they would need additional bone during
> the teething stage?

I doubt it. They have been building bone since the day they were
born. I doubt a few teeth will add much to the calcium requirment.

> They are a large breed, so I want to make sure I am not messing
> up here.

Sounds like you are doing great. Keep going down the path you are
taking and it will be pretty difficult to mess up and impossible to
mess up so bad that the pups can't recover from it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nanack909" <dblack@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > -Bill,
> Do you think its just a coincidence that my dog stopped eating
> chicken around the time he started itching, after more than
> 2 months of eating it eagerly?

Yes, I think it is. I don't think one thing had anything to do with
the other. I don't believe dogs have a mystical power to
understand, "if i eat this, it will cause me to itch." Heck, most
people don't have that ability. :) :) :)

> I guess since he doesn't want to eat chicken he
> is putting himself on an elimination diet, as I hate to put him
> through not letting him eat anything else until he eats the darned
> chicken.

My guess is that he had rather have whatever it is you feed him when
he refuses chicken. He has learned, "if I hold out, something
better will be offered."

> Too bad I have alot of it in the freezer.

Well, hold on to it for now. It won't be long before you will know
for sure and once you determine it's not the chicken causing the
itching, insist that he eat it. You are in charge of the diet, not
him. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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7. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
Posted by: "deb&Earl veil" deb_earl_veil@yahoo.com deb_earl_veil
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

I know Zeus, My male Mastiff will often with chicken legs not bother really chewing and swallow but then regurgitate. I found that leaving them half frozen make him have to work and has completly stopped this problem whether it is a leg or even veal flank. He has even with medium size piecesof that chewed maybe 2 or three times then swallowed, and within 5 min. regurgitated it. So I ahveas a rule of thumb anything I feed him, leave around half frozen and he will chew it totally before swallowing.
Thanks for the advise on feeding the pups, they seem to be doing well. Mom however woke up this morning totally engorged and a bit hard. So am keeping hot packs consistantly on her and she is leaking milk little by little. Unfortunatly she also seems to be going through depression because of seperation anziety. If let her in the room where the puppy pen is she tries to either open the pen to get to them or will juump up on our bed then into the pen. But because she is taking the antibiotics and so raw with the vet taking her off nursing, I can not let her in the room with them at all. She is refusing to eat right now as well. She currently is 4 lbs below her pre pregnancy weight, which she was by no means to start with to heavy or to light. Anyone have any suggestions as far as her eating or how long until I should worry aobut her not eating? appreciate any suggestions at all!

Blessed Be
Deb


Blessed Be
Deb and Earl

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Angel & Holly's first Raw meal/multiple dogs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:54 pm ((PST))

Congrats! Sounds like things went well!

I'm new to feeding multiple dogs so I don't know what to say about
that. I think I would just want to make sure they aren't stressed
while eating, and that each dog is getting the right amount and one
isn't getting too much while the other doesn't get enough. You can
let them decide and watch to see how it goes, or you can teach them
to each eat on separate towels/blankets, or if it becomes necessary--
in crates, or with a baby gate in between, etc.

You could probably get more info searching the archives for "multiple
dogs."

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
Was
> it ok for me to let them decide who got what? Or should I feed
them
> seperately?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
Posted by: "Kim" onlyzombiecat@embarqmail.com zombiecat3
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:54 pm ((PST))

We just took in an 8 year old female Chihuahua last week. She weighs
10.5 pounds. She needs to lose weight. I can not feel her ribs at all.
She is not very energetic. She has some teeth but several have been
removed.

In her former home she was fed canned food (and human junk food). I was
not planning to switch her to raw until she settled in a bit more.
However, she passed up the canned stuff and made a beeline for our other
dog's chicken quarter so I decided to see what she would do with a leg.
She got all the skin and meat off the bone and left the bone. [:D]

What should I do to make sure she gets a complete diet? Are there some
bones she could handle or might she need a supplement if we go totally
raw for her? What do other Chihuahua owners feed?

Our other dog is a 17 month old fox terrier mix and has been doing great
on a raw diet for about 10 months.

Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.

-Kim
Reggie- 17 month old Fox Terrier mix
Sophie- 8 year old Chihuahua


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

For bone sources, chicken necks and backs would be good choices. You
can crush them with a hammer first if she can't handle them whole.
But, I would try whole first. I would think if she was able to get the
skin and meat off a leg quarter, she may be able to crunch up softer
bones.

If all else fails, you can always feed chunks of boneless meat then
grind the boney things up or purchase preground chicken backs and
necks.

Ania


> However, she passed up the canned stuff and made a beeline for our
other
> dog's chicken quarter so I decided to see what she would do with a
leg.
> She got all the skin and meat off the bone and left the bone. [:D]
>
> What should I do to make sure she gets a complete diet? Are there
some
> bones she could handle or might she need a supplement if we go
totally
> raw for her? What do other Chihuahua owners feed?
>


Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12431

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Chicken Allergy
From: nanack909
1b. Re: Chicken Allergy
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Chicken Allergy
From: carnesbill
1d. Re: Chicken Allergy
From: nanack909
1e. Re: Chicken Allergy
From: judy tallant

2a. Re: Starting to eat
From: Jean
2b. Re: Starting to eat
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Been a long time.
From: Charron
3b. Re: Been a long time.
From: Loraine Jesse

4a. Re: Dehydrated foods
From: homesforallpets
4b. Re: Dehydrated foods
From: costrowski75

5. Angel & Holly's first Raw meal
From: homesforallpets

6a. Re: Gas
From: Sherrel Leininger

7. Happy New Year, Raw and all.
From: Loraine Jesse

8a. New puppy - raw but what else ?
From: michellegallik
8b. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
From: Chia
8c. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
From: costrowski75
8d. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
From: Sandee Lee

9. Teething and bones
From: Loraine Jesse

10a. Re: meal recipes
From: Loraine Jesse

11a. Re: Whole chickens
From: Sherrel Leininger

12a. vets
From: Renate

13a. Re: Little poo question
From: Sherrel Leininger

14a. Types of edible bone
From: adkjoe17
14b. Re: Types of edible bone
From: Sandee Lee


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "nanack909" dblack@cfl.rr.com nanack909
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:25 am ((PST))

My 5 month old GSD has stopped eating any chicken, except when he
knows there will be nothing else to eat all day. He has started
scratching alot in the last couple of weeks but has no sign of fleas,
and I check him everyday. I am suspecting a chicken allergy, even
though I have never believed in this possibility before, mostly
because he will refuse to eat it and he is otherwise a good eater. My
question is how long after eliminating a food, if that is the problem,
will it take for the scratching to stop? This is the 5th day of being
off of chicken and he is still scratching, but not quite as much as
before.
Thanks,
Nancy & GSD Kobe


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))

"nanack909" <dblack@...> wrote:
> My
> question is how long after eliminating a food, if that is the
problem,
> will it take for the scratching to stop? This is the 5th day of
being
> off of chicken and he is still scratching, but not quite as much as
> before.
*****
It may take as long as three months to reach a clear conclusion, but
if you're seeing improvement after five days it probably won't take
you 85 more days to figure out if it's chicken that's making him itch.

Once he's itchless, you have several options: Continue avoiding
chicken; feed the chicken you have been feeding to see if the itching
starts up again; change brands and try again; change to a minimally
processed, unenhanced brand.

In the meantime, you might also evaluate his environment for other
potential causes. It's possible a number of marginal annoyances have
conspired to take your guy over the top (or perhaps, push him over
the edge).
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nanack909" <dblack@...> wrote:
>
> My question is how long after eliminating a food, if that is
> the problem, will it take for the scratching to stop?

2 months. I doubt it's chicken but you will know in 2 months.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "nanack909" dblack@cfl.rr.com nanack909
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))


>
> -Bill,
Do you think its just a coincidence that my dog stopped eating
chicken around the time he started itching, after more than 2 months
of eating it eagerly? I guess since he doesn't want to eat chicken he
is putting himself on an elimination diet, as I hate to put him
through not letting him eat anything else until he eats the darned
chicken. Too bad I have alot of it in the freezer.
Nancy & GSD Kobe


> I doubt it's chicken but you will know in 2 months.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Chicken Allergy
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:11 am ((PST))

I have a few food sensitivities myself and went through quite a bit
of testing through elimination and reintroduction. It's very time
consuming to do. The thing I best learned from the experience is to
eat a balanced diet. The dog can develop an allergy to chicken, if
that's all he's been eating. It can work that way with any protein -
both in dogs and in humans.

On Dec 29, 2007, at 10:37 AM, nanack909 wrote:

> Do you think its just a coincidence that my dog stopped eating
> chicken around the time he started itching, after more than 2 months
> of eating it eagerly?

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Starting to eat
Posted by: "Jean" iambjl246@yahoo.com iambjl246
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))


I am excited to see the results. I was surprised she ate it so easy!
BUT dogs are meat eaters. She is use to having food anytime she wants
but she is a healthy weight. So this is interesting & we will keep
her on raw chicken for a few weeks then introduce something else.Jean

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Jean,
>
> This new food is pretty foreign...and bland! Sounds like she
figured it
> out, but you could warm it a bit and slice into the meat in a few
places to
> give her a starting point. Or feed something easier like bone-in
breasts.
>
> Hot dogs? Yuck! LOL Actually I cut them into tiny, tiny pieces to
> distract a Dane who doesn't like his nails cut...works like a
charm! :)
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Jean" <iambjl246@...>
>
>
> Today is the first day to feed my Maltese raw. she doesn't eat much
> anyway. Today I gave her a chicken leg (skin removed)and she just
> walked away. later in the evening I cut a piece of the meat off so
she
> could get to the bone. She ate the meat first then started on the
> meatybone. Sure hope to see improvement in her health in a few
weeks!
> I think I know the answer is "no," but are hotdogs ok? Thanks for
all
> of the help! Jean
>


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Starting to eat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:22 am ((PST))

Yes, they are little carnivores, aren't they? No need to feed chicken
exclusively for a few weeks if she is doing well. You can slowly introduce
bits of red meat/organ any time you feel comfortable.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jean" <iambjl246@yahoo.com>

I am excited to see the results. I was surprised she ate it so easy!
BUT dogs are meat eaters. She is use to having food anytime she wants
but she is a healthy weight. So this is interesting & we will keep
her on raw chicken for a few weeks then introduce something else.Jean

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Been a long time.
Posted by: "Charron" darklyghtt@yahoo.com darklyghtt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

Sumo has been on Raw for just about 2 years now and I am very happy
with how he has been doing. He is a no nonsense guy when it comes to
his food. He either wants it or he wraps it up in a towel for later.
I am getting another dog next week and will be making the switch for
her. I am not sure if Sumo is going to be having any food guarding
behaviors but plan on feeding them in different rooms and then
eventually getting their feeding locations closer.

I do have a funny story to tell from this last holliday. I am a
vegetarian and had gone to my family gathering for dinner. They ended
up having lots of leftovers. I got a huge baggie of fruit, A large
container of pasta and a large container of Mashed potatoes, corn and
broccoli. They gave me a large pan of turkey with no bones, gravy and
some broccoli. I got home and started to unload the car. Sumo, very
carefully pulled out the pan, without spilling or disturbing the other
containers on top of it, took it to the living room to take the lid
off and cleaned it out. I did not notice this till I had finished
unloading the car. By that time the pan was practically empty. He
knew it was for him. But yes, that is my funny story.

Take care all and have a wonderful new year!
Charron

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Been a long time.
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))


Charron,
Love your Xmas leftover story.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon!
http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Dehydrated foods
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:47 am ((PST))

My dogs will not eat raw chicken liver otherwise but they beg for the
dried stuff. It is an easy way to get the liver into them.
>
> Tracy

When you dehydrate the livers, do you slices them or anything before
drying? Or do you leave them whole? Do you dry in a dehydrator or
with your oven?

Kathy in MO
Angel & Holly - dogs Oreo & Turquoise - cats

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Dehydrated foods
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:18 am ((PST))

ADMIN/It appears some people are not paying attention. Please pay
attention! The Rawfeeding List is NOT (that's N-O-T) the place for how-
to dehydrate, cook or otherwise process any food. All such questions
and answers can be posted to RawChat. All such questions and answers
posted to Rawfeeding will be deleted.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. Angel & Holly's first Raw meal
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:48 am ((PST))

Ok I took the plunge. Yesterday I gave them wingettes and a little
ground chicken I had gotten on sale. I had gotten two brands' chicken
wingettes and they were different. One brand's idea of wingette was
the first joint of the wing. More like wing tips to me. The other
brand's had the whole wing, the shoulder and what looked like a bit of
the back. So I gave each 1 big one and 1 little one and a bit of the
ground to be sure they had enough.

They did not fight over it, I was afraid they might. Holly ate both
the tips and all the ground. Angel ate both the larger peices. Was
it ok for me to let them decide who got what? Or should I feed them
seperately? Both chewed very well! I have to say though that Holly
wouldn't touch it until she saw Angel eating. I am so proud of my lil
carnies!

Kathy in MO
Angel & Holly - dogs Ore & Turquoise - cats

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Gas
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))

After I started with 2 raw feedings a day Daisy would have the same problem. But it seems to be much better now. And we have only been completely raw feeding for less than 2 weeks.

Sherrel, Daisy and Lilly

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7. Happy New Year, Raw and all.
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))


I just wanted to wish everyone a very Happy New Year. Thank-you for all of your patience and help, my dogs love you all. The excitement from feeding this way is really contagious, yesterday my Husband phoned around meat plants to find deals on meat and managed to find sow belly's that were in the freezer too long to be sold to Humans, so off we went to pick up seven cases, our freezers are packed with dog food, now we have to get some for us <grin>
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. New puppy - raw but what else ?
Posted by: "michellegallik" michelle@hdinger.com michellegallik
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))

Hi. I am a newbie still searching the sites for all the info - but SO
much to read thru. Hoping for a couple of answers from the veterans.
I am already a raw food believer but wondered what else a pup might
need. I have a 10 week old standard poodle that I have weaned off of
the kibble that the breeder had her on. I am using a combo of meats -
some raw from an organic farm w/organ meats and I am trying tubes of
Bravo for some convenience. I have been adding cooked sweet potato,
alittle raw grated carrot or squash and green beans. She came with a
powdered vitamin/enzyme and norwegian kelp.

She has turned into a chow hound in the last couple of days - I think
when you give up carbs from kibble you are extra hungry. I know as I
don't eat any grains or sugars (curing myself of Crohn's disease) and I
was ravenous when I made the switch.

Thanks for your help.

Michelle and puppy Sabrina

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:40 am ((PST))

Hi. I am a newbie still searching the sites for all the info - but SO
much to read thru. Hoping for a couple of answers from the veterans.
I am already a raw food believer but wondered what else a pup might
need. I have a 10 week old standard poodle that I have weaned off of
the kibble that the breeder had her on. I am using a combo of meats -
some raw from an organic farm w/organ meats and I am trying tubes of
Bravo for some convenience. I have been adding cooked sweet potato,
alittle raw grated carrot or squash and green beans. She came with a
powdered vitamin/enzyme and norwegian kelp.

#### not much to grasp if you just follow nature and what a dog is 'meant'
to consume, as if in nature.

To keep your pup satisfied and healthy, NO vegetables, unless as the
occasional treat. Carnivores derive ALL the nutrition they require from the
flesh of animals that eat vegetation, simple as that. Mother Nature did NOT
give wolves/dogs, the physiology to digest carbs so obviously, no need to
have it on the menu. It also can contribute to health issues since all
those silly root veggies you mentioned are high sugar. NO veggies..focus on
luscious meats, organs, fish, eggs...

Shop around and find deals on WHOLE chickens, lop into half, then quarters
and feed these HUGE pieces to your pup three times per day until gone.
After a week or two, introduce a small amount of organs and eventually,
another protein source. You'll drop down the three times per day feedings
to two times probably by 4-5 months? Others whom have raised young pups
could chime in here.

Feeding HUGE pieces not only will probably naturally encourage those baby
teeth to come out on their own when it is time, but it will also tire your
puppy out which is a wonderful thing. ;-)) Her appetite will normalize
very soon!

Chia & Ricco ( no vaccines, no chemicals..real food...always...)

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:01 am ((PST))

"michellegallik" <michelle@...> wrote:
>> I am already a raw food believer but wondered what else a pup
might
> need.
*****
Dogs are wolves in designer clothes. You need only feed them as
wolves would eat. Raw meat--most of the menu. Raw organs--not much
of the menu at all. Raw edible bones--not much of the menu at all,
perhaps a bit more than organs, maybe.

Everything is in there. Whether you feed free range and grassfed or
you feed store bought and paid for, all you need assemble are meat,
organs and edible bones. If you want to supplement with fish body
oil to add omega 3 fatty acids, you certainly can. But there are
many who do not and are quite utterly satisfied with their dogs'
health and well-being.


I have been adding cooked sweet potato,
> alittle raw grated carrot or squash and green beans. She came with
a
> powdered vitamin/enzyme and norwegian kelp.
*****
Well you can and should stop. These offer nothing except unnecessary
carbs. Your lovely puppy does not need supplemental carbs. Not
ever. Not for nutrition, not for stool stabilization, not for fun,
not to fill an empty belly, not as belt and suspenders to "fix" any
deficiencies of a species appropriate diet.

I doubt she needs enzymes (regardless of purpose) and she certainly
doesn't need supplemental vitamins and kelp. These are the support
systems of a person unclear on the concept. I suggest your pup's
breeder had the best of intentions but the wrong actions.

I recommend you join Yahoogroups in order to browse the rawfeeding
list archives. Also check out:
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net
Chris O


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:12 am ((PST))

Hi Michelle,

Stick with meat, bones and organs from a variety of critters and everything
will be covered. No need for vitamins, enzymes and certainly not kelp
(which can inhibit thyroid function). You are still feeding quite a bit of
carbs...sweet starchy carbs...which are not going to satisfy and may be the
reason she is wanting more of it (speaking from experience being a carb
addict <g>)!

Get rid of the Bravo and the veggies and supplements, just feed some nice
large chunks of meat, a little bone and organs. Easy! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "michellegallik" <michelle@hdinger.com>


Hi. I am a newbie still searching the sites for all the info - but SO
much to read thru. Hoping for a couple of answers from the veterans.
I am already a raw food believer but wondered what else a pup might
need. I have a 10 week old standard poodle that I have weaned off of
the kibble that the breeder had her on. I am using a combo of meats -
some raw from an organic farm w/organ meats and I am trying tubes of
Bravo for some convenience. I have been adding cooked sweet potato,
alittle raw grated carrot or squash and green beans. She came with a
powdered vitamin/enzyme and norwegian kelp.


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9. Teething and bones
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))


I do have a question. My pups are 4 months and have been fed twice a day since about 12 wks. In the morning they have chicken or, Turkey pieces and the evening usually beef, pork or, heart with varies organ pieces (liver, kidney) added a few times a week, the odd time they will get eggs or, canned fish. They are teething like mad now so I have been offering them pork necks, which they are munching down big time. Will they be okay with this additional bone? Is it possible that they would need additional bone during the teething stage? They are a large breed, so I want to make sure I am not messing up here.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: meal recipes
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))


Patsy,
No dumb questions we are all learning. No chicken is not considered a red meat, it tends to be a staple because it is much cheaper to purchase however, you do need to feed more muscel meat such as beef,heart and pork. I had a hard time with pork being a red meat <grin>
Loraine Jesse
www.rothburgrottweilers.com
"This may be a dumb question, but a vegan must ask ;-) Is raw chickenconsidered red meat? I'm thinking not, but chicken is the number oneingredient for new rawbies, so I'm a wonderin'.thanks,Patsy"

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Messages in this topic (12)
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11a. Re: Whole chickens
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:53 am ((PST))

Hi Yassy
This is being answered a week later. I have had a house full of people for christmas time and I was off the list for a few days and just now getting back. But I have also caught a cold or flu today. :-(

Hi.Wow.... Isn't that very time-consuming?
Yep, I was up to 1 whole afternoon a week cooking for these two. When I was just cooking for 1 miniature pinscher it was not a problem. Even when I was cooking for one dobe it was not really much of a problem but cooking for 2 dobes, very active dogs, it became a little much. Raw feeding is much easier.
Barf is the first one I read about
I did read about barf and I have a pitcarn book and I have a Wendy Volhard book but I found them complecated. And Pitcarn still fed lots of cooked oatmeal. Volhard did too but hers was even more complex because certian things had to be fed on certian days and if your dog has a low thyroid it must have cooked carbs once a week. Daisy is low thyroid but I think I won't give the cooked part until after her next bloodwork for her thyriod. She does get a pill 2xs a day for low thyroid.

*****I guess I need to cut the chickens up. Cut the chickens up into
pieces because I feed twice a day.

But make sure you don't cut the chicken to 1 inch chunk
OH no I want them to chew up their food. I cut it into peices like backs, quarters and wings. Mostly they still get chicken leg quarters, I buy bags of quarters. I have added liver a couple of times in small amounts. So far so good!!

You know what? you can start both dog from 2lb daily intake,and feed 1lb each time you feed.THat would be easier for you. THen,if your dog started chunky head,then,you feed less would be good,
Yep I have already deceided that too. I did feed the 3% and I could tell after a couple of days that they were going light so I have upped it. I already don't weight it I just throw it out.


Just remember,one thing new at a time and move on to the other protin source after your dog did well on the protin you fed.And baby step is the key.Be patient.

I went to a local butcher and bought some meat beef and pork liver, pork hearts. pork tongues. But it seems expensive

pork heart 1.09 a lbs I bought 2.
pork tongues 1.19 I bought 4
beef liver 1.49 I bought 1 whole.
pork liver .89 I bought 6.
total cost 34.13 about 30 lbs
And they don't give away pig/cows lower legs or any other parts.
Sherrel, Daisy and Lilly


Messages in this topic (10)
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12a. vets
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:53 am ((PST))

I've been raw feeding three months now. Took Russell to the vet today (he
was a rescue with epilepsy and in poor condition). The vet was amazed. She
said his condition was absolutely perfect! I told her I was raw feeding and
I got a lecture (never did know when to keep my mouth shut)

She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving that raw
fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't. And she
told me to be very very careful and not to use my dogs as therapy dogs
cause they can be dangerous to ill people. I said why should I be more
concerned about salmonella than ecoli and got another lectureLOL
Has anyone heard of this study, or have any idea why this could be?
--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'


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Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:53 am ((PST))

LOL Chris that is what I actually meant. OK I quess I did not say it well.
Sherrel

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@. ..> wrote:
I mean if they are too dry add come grease.
*****
I think, Sherrel, that grease would be less appropriate than simply
adding fattier--and raw--food. Even a clump of raw fat would be better
than grease.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (9)
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14a. Types of edible bone
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:53 am ((PST))

What are some other types of edible bones besides chicken. Most of
the beef bones are too hard to eat and lamb ribs are pretty expensive.
What other ways can I ad bone to red meat? I use chicken mostly but
would like to find another source of bone.

Joe

Messages in this topic (2)
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14b. Re: Types of edible bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:01 am ((PST))

You probably don't need to add bone if you are feeding mostly chicken. But
pork and fish would be good sources if necessary.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@yahoo.com>


What are some other types of edible bones besides chicken. Most of
the beef bones are too hard to eat and lamb ribs are pretty expensive.
What other ways can I ad bone to red meat? I use chicken mostly but
would like to find another source of bone.

Messages in this topic (2)
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