Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 25, 2007

Sunday, November 25, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12315

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Kathy intro-premix raw concerns
From: Michelle R

2a. Re: Excessive urinating
From: eu_azi

3a. Re: comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
From: ada

4a. Re: Newbie intro
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Newbie intro
From: beaulah_2001us
4c. Re: Newbie intro
From: DM H

5a. trying not working
From: tiffany.contempopainting
5b. Re: trying not working
From: recyclerat@aol.com
5c. Re: trying not working
From: windmilldairy

6a. New to List (sevice dog with allergies)
From: groomindiva67
6b. Re: New to List (sevice dog with allergies)
From: judy tallant

7a. Salmon Oil/How much???
From: cynthiashankman
7b. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
From: katkellm
7c. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
From: Yasuko herron
7d. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
From: cynthiashankman

8a. First Feeding
From: Sallie Taylor
8b. Re: First Feeding
From: katkellm
8c. Re: First Feeding
From: Sallie Taylor

9a. Re: I am scared silly
From: ada
9b. Re: I am scared silly
From: cypressbunny
9c. Dog with heartworm
From: DM H

10a. Re: another newbie
From: Peggy Parker
10b. Re: another newbie
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: another newbie
From: katkellm

11a. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1. Kathy intro-premix raw concerns
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

Kathy,

Welcome to the list. I hope this list will be as great a benefit to you as it has me. There is a wealth of info in the archives, so be sure to check them out.
You say you have found a company who "makes a wonderful product", I am concerned because the basis for most who seek to feed raw is returning to nature. Mother nature "makes" all the food we need, perfectly ...all we have to do to feed is hand it to the dog. Some premixes come with high fruit and/or veggie content along with other processed nasties. The whole idea when switching to raw is getting away from the processed food and getting back to the perfect foods mother nature has already created.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Excessive urinating
Posted by: "eu_azi" dantennispro@gmail.com eu_azi
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
If she's doing the squat and dribble, with no output, then she may
> have a UTI and that'd be the first thing I'd check...
>
Thank you for your response...Would you mind explain what exactly
means "dribble with no output" please? Thanx again
eu_azi@yahoo.com

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

Hi Michelle,

> I do admit I use a cholox cleaner on the counter
> after Ive been preparing the raw stuff. I am a bit
> of a germ-a-phob tho. I even wipe doorknobs and
> everything. ;-)

I used to be a bleach-aholic, and still can't be
comfortable until I've cleaned with bleach after
handling tripe. Yes, I wipe doorknobs and every
surface I, or the raw meat, has touched. It's the
responsible thing to do, as we (hopefully) would take
basic precautions when preparing raw meat for our
families.

> I am new to raw tho and I expect as I get more
> comfortable, I will not be as phobic about my
> cleaning. ;-)

'Tis true :). But, until such time, do what you can
live with that will allow you to keep feeding your
dogs a species appropriate diet. And, don't let
anyone make you feel guilty about whatever ritual you
need. Keeping in mind, of course, that vinegar IS
much better for your family and your pets than bleach
;). (yeah...do as I say - not as I do. lol) And, soap
and water is adequate for most clean-ups.

> I have either vinyl flooring or hardwood thru-out
> the house, so cleaning will be easy, esp on the
> vinyl.

Many of us who feed inside use feeding cloths - old
towels, or cloths specified for dog feeding. These
can be laundered, and just wash the floor underneath.
Mine have learned to keep the meat ON the cloth. They
find it helps to hold the meal, as opposed to chasing
it all over the floor. Also, contained area for human
to clean ;).

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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4a. Re: Newbie intro
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:48 pm ((PST))

Hi Kathy,

Unless the pork and lamb necks have tons of meat, all of the bone items
sound too bony...chickens necks far too small. The meat is all ground.
Eggs are good but you probably don't want to add them until your dog has
adjusted to one protein source. You don't need the veggies or herbs. :))

So...long story short, you can do a much better job by going down to your
local markets, buying whole chickens and turkeys, large lamb and pork
roasts, slabs of ribs, beef brisket and heart, etc. A raw diet is mainly
meat, a bit of edible bone and the ever important organs, fed in nice large
portions to give your dogs the dental benefits of ripping and tearing.

Choking *can* happen with items that are too small (necks, wings) but also
kibble toys, etc...loose stools *can* happen when introducing too much
variety too soon ("raging" diarrhea is generally indicative of
illness)...and broken teeth are the result of feeding the large hard marrow
bones devoid of meat. So she is partially right!! :)

Start out slowly and you'll do fine. There are tons of us on this list
successfully feeding raw!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "gudrun032150" <gudrun032150@yahoo.com>

I am interested in raw feeding, and have contacted a company in
sonoma, Feed This, who have a wonderful product. My vet is a great
holistic doctor, and she is familiar with this company. She thinks raw
is a good diet, and gave me the ok, while also giving me her few
warnings: choking on bones, "raging" diarrhea (very occasionally) and
broken teeth.

I have signed up for a delivery, first one on Dec. 10.
I'M VERY NERVOUS! thought i would peek around and try to find out more
and more.

Messages in this topic (26)
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4b. Re: Newbie intro
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:51 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gudrun032150" <gudrun032150@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all
> I'm Kathy from northern california. I live with Odie, a year +- few
> months old rescue catahoula/hound/??? from the Mendocino County
Animal.
*Welcome to the group Kathy, Odie and Sammie. I am still new here,
well I feel like I am. I have been here for about a year now give or
take a little.

I lost my beloved Dobies to cancer; one this past April (lymphoma) and
one two and a half years ago (Hemangiosarcoma.) Another Dobie was
lost to cardiomyopathy. One guy lived to about 13! And two terrier
mutts lived to 14 & 16!
*We lost our two babies in less than a year this last year. One to
pain, arthritus, severly fused back adn she was 14-15. The other one
we lost to Insulinoma Cancer. Nasty stuff. She was 10 1/2 yrs old. We
now have Sophie who is just over 3 months.

My vet is a great holistic doctor, and she is familiar with this
company. She thinks raw is a good diet, and gave me the ok, while
also giving me her few warnings: choking on bones, "raging" diarrhea
(very occasionally) and broken teeth.

* It takes a little getting used to but I like feeding raw. Yes with
Sophie she has had a couple of choking incidents but we feed her when
we are right there. The only problem I have had with my holistic vet
is that she still thinks the dogs need veggies and suppliements.
While maybe some supplements are good I dont think one needs them all
the time. I could be wrong on that, but that is my personal feeling
on it.

I have signed up for a delivery, first one on Dec. 10.
I'M VERY NERVOUS! thought i would peek around and try to find out
more and more.Kathy & Odie (and foster dog Sammie--kelpie looking for
a home.)

* Good luck with your first delivery. I am sure your fur babies will
love you to pieces!
Sandy

Messages in this topic (26)
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4c. Re: Newbie intro
Posted by: "DM H" hawks.bluff@yahoo.com hawks.bluff
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:57 pm ((PST))

Hi Kathy,

I got the same lecture from my vet in 2003, when I
started feeding raw to my dogs. I also foster dogs
for my local county shelter (El Dorado) and currently
have a little Chow mix awaiting heartworm treatment.

All I can say is that none of the dire warnings ever
came true, and my dogs have thrived. I didn't go the
whole way - I did a modified with home-cooked diet
consisting of meat/brown rice/veggies and fed a lot of
RMB's, poultry wings and necks, and organ meats. I am
just now slowly moving toward a comprehensive raw
diet.

I have also introduced every one of my foster dogs to
raw foods, and have not had a single bad experience.
No vomiting, no choking on bones, no diarrhea. Some
dogs take a few days to get the hang of it, but 99% of
them take to it immediately and seem to really like
it. The only hard part is adopting them out to
someone who walks off with a bag of Hill's Science
Diet under their arm! :-(

My new challenge is that I'm fostering two cats - one
adult and one kitten - and I'm trying raw on them!

Donna

Messages in this topic (26)
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5a. trying not working
Posted by: "tiffany.contempopainting" tiffcurran@gmail.com tiffany.contempopainting
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:27 pm ((PST))

Hi new at this.I tried turkey necks, chicken legs, and even the frozen packaged raw. They sniff it, lick it, then are done with it. My cat loved it but dogs want no part of it. Tried lightly frying just top skin to no avail. Any idea's on what else to try to get them going. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Tiffany

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

not a pro here, but have you tried chopping it up into smaller hunks?

.heather.

Hi new at this.I tried turkey necks, chicken legs, and even the frozen
packaged raw. They sniff it, lick it, then are done with it. My cat loved it but
dogs want no part of it. Tried lightly frying just top skin to no avail. Any
idea's on what else to try to get them going. Any help would be greatly
appreciated.
Tiffany

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5c. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:05 pm ((PST))

Hi Tiffany--

Maybe they are not hungry enough, try letting them get their appetite elevated and I'M
almost certain they will eat it. Do try small bite size pieces than work your way up.

Pat

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tiffany.contempopainting" <tiffcurran@...> wrote:
>
> Hi new at this.I tried turkey necks, chicken legs, and even the frozen packaged raw. They
sniff it, lick it, then are done with it. My cat loved it but dogs want no part of it. Tried lightly
frying just top skin to no avail. Any idea's on what else to try to get them going. Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
> Tiffany
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. New to List (sevice dog with allergies)
Posted by: "groomindiva67" redneckdiva@sbcglobal.net groomindiva67
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:27 pm ((PST))

Hello I am new and have been thinking about putting my daughters
service dog on a prey diet. she has horrible allergies with chewing
and itching and hotspots. At this point she can not go out in public
because of her skin and smell. I have done just about everything to
help this poor dog and she is so miserable. I guess I am just looking
for support as I make this transition. Looking forward to hearing all
of the input. My daughters dog is a Golden and she weights about
60lbs. I think I should feed her 1.5 lbs divided into 2 feedings is
this right??? and should I wait to start her for 12 hours after her
kibble feeding??

Thanks again

Monica and the Redneck Crew
4 Standard Poodles
1 Golden Retreiver (hearing dog)
1 Rhodesian Ridgback (retired show dog)

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: New to List (sevice dog with allergies)
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:33 pm ((PST))

I too have a golden with allergies. She's been tested and the
allergens are environmental such as grass, dust, hemlock, cats,
fleas, human dander and many more. This sort of allergy shows up in
dogs on their skin and it's an autoimmune disorder. The smell is
undoubtedly yeast, which thrives on irritated skin. It's partner is
staph and together they make her quite pitiful. The most important
thing I can do for her is to provide her a diet that will build her
immune system and not create any variables, in terms of the things
that hurt her. I feed her a lot of salmon, fowl and organ meats.

In terms of additional treatment, keep her from chewing that
irritated skin or it will get infected. Beyond that, different
veterinarians will try combinations of antibiotics, anti-fungals, and
steroids. Or you can go the homeopathic route.

On Nov 25, 2007, at 4:14 PM, groomindiva67 wrote:

> Hello I am new and have been thinking about putting my daughters
> service dog on a prey diet. she has horrible allergies with chewing
> and itching and hotspots. At this point she can not go out in public
> because of her skin and smell.

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

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7a. Salmon Oil/How much???
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

I am resending this question:

Is there a guideline on how much salmon oil to give a dog? My dog
weighs 30 lbs. The capsules I have contain 1000 mg. of oil.

Thank you.

Cindi

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
> Is there a guideline on how much salmon oil to give a dog? My dog
> weighs 30 lbs. The capsules I have contain 1000 mg. of oil.

Hi Cindi,
A maintenance dose of s.o. is 1000mg per 30lbs of dog. A therapeutic
dose could be as much as 1000mg per 10lbs of dog. When i started
feeding salmon oil a couple of years ago, somehow, someway, i
remembered the dose to be 1000mg per 20lbs of dog and that is what i
have been feeding mine. I try to remember to feed it 4 times a week.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:08 pm ((PST))

hi.I thought 1000mg Salmon oil cap per 20lb body weight for maintanance level dose.

My dog 34lb but I cannot give 1.5 cap,so,I give 1 cap one day andnext day I give 2 cap and balance it out.

I give daily.

yassy

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7d. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> hi.I thought 1000mg Salmon oil cap per 20lb body weight for
maintanance level dose.
>
> My dog 34lb but I cannot give 1.5 cap,so,I give 1 cap one day
andnext day I give 2 cap and balance it out.
>
> I give daily.
>
>
ahhhh! Great idea Yassy! Thank you!

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8a. First Feeding
Posted by: "Sallie Taylor" treterra@yahoo.com treterra
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:43 pm ((PST))

OK, so the Bullmastiff ate half a chicken in about 10 minutes. We stayed with her the whole time and took it away once just to be sure she's OK w/ that. Crunched bones for sure, but is this enough time?

Sallie

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8b. Re: First Feeding
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sallie Taylor <treterra@...> wrote:
>
> OK, so the Bullmastiff ate half a chicken in about 10 minutes. We
stayed with her the whole time and took it away once just to be sure
she's OK w/ that. Crunched bones for sure, but is this enough time?

Hi Sallie,
If you mean does it sound like she gulped it down or does it sound
like she ate politely, imo, it sounds like she ate properly and did a
fine job--both of you did good. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: First Feeding
Posted by: "Sallie Taylor" treterra@yahoo.com treterra
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:06 pm ((PST))

Kathy. THANK YOU. I appreciate your affirmation. This IS scary the first time -- especially when she NEVER chewed her other food. Not kidding, less than a minute, tops, to go through an entire bowl. No hurling on the chicken, yet, either, and it's been over an hour. Again, thanks!

Sallie

katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sallie Taylor <treterra@...> wrote:
>
> OK, so the Bullmastiff ate half a chicken in about 10 minutes. We
stayed with her the whole time and took it away once just to be sure
she's OK w/ that. Crunched bones for sure, but is this enough time?

Hi Sallie,
If you mean does it sound like she gulped it down or does it sound
like she ate politely, imo, it sounds like she ate properly and did a
fine job--both of you did good. KathyM

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9a. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

Hi Wendy,

> I have asked a neighbor who hunts to give me his
> deer and turkey trim,

Sooooooo Jealous!

> I have overcome my worries that the food all needs
> to be organic (yes, I know that would be best, but
> fresh has to be an improvment over
> processed; .organic can wait until I can afford to
> eat it daily myself!)

Yep!

> I am terrified...<snip>....has anyone else ever felt
> this way before taking the plunge?

uummmm...just, maybe all of us? lol I have nothing to
add to the great advice you've already received here,
except to share my RAW beginning. Apologies to the
ones who have read it a gazillion times :-Þ

I was forced into RAW, because my 8y/o(at the time)
mix was throwing up every commercial kibble we tried.
Yes, even "the real quality" ones <rollseyes> by
prescription from the vet. He'd always had a sensitive
tummy, but things escalated as he got older. We're not
talking a little *gack*ing and spitting up - I'm
talking serious wretching. I don't remember how I
heard about RAW; but, I stumbled on this group while
researching. After watching for awhile, I decided I
best give it a 'go', as Mozart was still declining.
Well, he can be verrrry stubborn. He didn't eat for
three days, and every day I would write a sob post:
"He's still not eating...don't think I can do this".
Everyone encouraged me that I had to be strong, to do
what was best for him, and that "healthy dogs will NOT
starve themselves. He'll eat when he's hungry".
Well, the thing was, he was NOT healthy, and I was
really starting to worry. Talk about terrified! I had
nowhere to turn, if this diet didn't work out. On the
fourth morning, I offered the leg quarter, and he gave
it the usual disdainful *sniff*, looked at me with the
usual "why do you hate me", and walked away. I came
in to write our farewell post: "Thanks everyone for
the support; but, I just can't do this to him
anymore...(blah blah blah)", when I heard an odd noise
coming from the kitchen. Thinking he was in the trash
(again), I went in to find him....eating the RAW
chicken!! Literally tears of joy.

Mo is in his 13th year now - five extra years I know
we wouldn't have him, if he'd continued on k***le.
Abigail (7.5lb Yorkie), has been RAWfed since her 9th
week :). She's muscular, her coat is shiny, and the
vets can't believe her teeth "for a Yorkie" ;).

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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9b. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

> I came
> in to write our farewell post: "Thanks everyone for
> the support; but, I just can't do this to him
> anymore...(blah blah blah)", when I heard an odd noise
> coming from the kitchen. Thinking he was in the trash
> (again), I went in to find him....eating the RAW
> chicken!! Literally tears of joy

*** Still brings tears to my eyes, Ada. Hats off to Mo.

Carrie

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9c. Dog with heartworm
Posted by: "DM H" hawks.bluff@yahoo.com hawks.bluff
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

I am fostering a dog who was diagnosed with heartworm
disease. I just got him yesterday - a very cute
little Chow mix, probably four years old and about 45
pounds.

I tried feeding him some raw beef, and he was
ambivalent about it. So for the time being, I have
been giving him some raw as a treat (chicken wings,
which he has decided are good) but feeding him
canned/kibble as his main meals. He is going in for
his neuter tomorrow, then will start his treatment for
heartworm in approximately one to two weeks, during
which he must be kept as calm and quiet as possible.
(No control over timing on my part, unfortunately.)

Should I start converting him now, with the idea that
the sooner he starts eating right, the better off
he'll be? Or should I let him eat what he is
comfortable with, with the idea that the less stress,
the better? Any opinions? I am open to all thoughts,
with the understanding that none of your are vets (at
least that I know of <g>). My gut feeling is to start
him for real tomorrow afternoon, when I pick him up
from the vet.

I have also ordered a package of "Parasite Dr." I
know that is a topic for another group, but if anyone
has any experience with it, I'd appreciate any
off-group responses you want to give. It is primarily
garlic, neem, and ruta graveolens.

TIA,

Donna

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10a. Re: another newbie
Posted by: "Peggy Parker" peggyparker_4@yahoo.com peggyparker_4
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

So, I guess the freeze dried raw food offered on the net is not a good idea? I will throw out the kibble and go see the holistic vet in the area who has frozen raw that she sells and use that while I am figuring this out.

One more question in the meantime....this pup wants to eat his poop, and that was before I fed him the kibble. What's that all about. So far we have caught him in the early stage and been able to stop him. Is there a cure for this? Some deficiency somewhere?

Peggy

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10b. Re: another newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:19 pm ((PST))

No, but neither is the frozen raw. Just go get a couple of chickens while
you are figuring this out....it's that simple! And keep reading. By the
time you are ready for more variety you'll know it all! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Peggy Parker" <peggyparker_4@yahoo.com>

> So, I guess the freeze dried raw food offered on the net is not a good
idea? I will throw out the kibble and go see the holistic vet in the area
who has frozen raw that she sells and use that while I am figuring this out.

Messages in this topic (20)
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10c. Re: another newbie
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Peggy Parker <peggyparker_4@...> wrote:
>
> So, I guess the freeze dried raw food offered on the net is not a
good idea? I will throw out the kibble and go see the holistic vet in
the area who has frozen raw that she sells and use that while I am
figuring this out.

Hi Peggy,
Frozen raw pre made patties are not a good idea either. You are
thinking way too hard and making this out to be lots more difficult
than it actually is. To start with, all you need is a regular old
grocery store. Go buy a chicken and cut it up into serving size hunks
so that you are feeding 2% of your dog's ideal body weight per day.
That is all you need to start off. Next, you can read the archives
and/or ask more questions. That's all you need to do to get off to a
good start. KathyM

Messages in this topic (20)
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11a. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:39 pm ((PST))

Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
I am wondering what sort of problems you folks faced from family and
friends when switching to raw?
*****
My husband was (and continues to be) supportive, the rest of the
world can pound sand.

I got (and continue to get) support from this list and other natural
rearing/raw lists, and from other raw feeders I have come to know
over the years. The rest of the world can pound sand.

The vets I see now are not necessarily proponents of raw feeding but
they have never once questioned my ability to feed my dogs properly.
The rest of the world can, well, you get the picture.

I am under a verbal barage of questions and really ridiculous ass-
umations on the part of some friends and all of my family (except my
daughter, lol) I was nearly assaulted over thanksgiving.
*****
This is unconscionable. It's not their bsuiness. Regardless of how
desperately much family members want to remake you in their images,
you are doing what you feel is right and I assume you did your
research up front (and that you continue to) so you did not go into
raw feeding as if it were a fad and you were a silly goose.

I have a long history of ignoring my family, so what they've thought
of me through the years has not significantly affected my choices. I
don't recommend keeping one's kith and kin at arm's length, but it
sure does make going about one's own business a lot easer.

I was "informed" I am
> A) giving my dogs worms and other parasites
> B) feeding them e-coli, salmonella and other horrible things
> C) asked how I could afford such a diet, its too enpensive and far
too much work and whereever was I finding time?
> D) informed I had to add very expensive supplements to balance a
crazy unbalance raw diet
> E) informed that by handling the raw food I was going to subject
myself to all the same parasites and disease I was now feeding my
dogs (we are all gonna die, basically)
> F ) informed that all the barf crap was just that.... a bunch of
CRAP and I was told flatout that I was stupid to think otherwise.
> G) How could I ever know how much to feed, its not like each bite
was balanced?
*****
Suggest they go to http://rawfed.com or print out the myths section
for them. If they chose not to read the material, neener-neener on
them. I urge you not to let them put the onus of proof on you. A
simple "show me" is all you need say.

They simply wished to strike out, but did not allow me to share my
knowledge with them. I got up from the table and just left the
room. :-(
*****
The only thing you could have done, actually. In similar situations
I have dumped coffee on people's heads, so leaving really was a
better choice. As long as they limit their abuse to verbal and don't
mess with your dogs, you can get along, I think. You are doing the
right thing, they are being fools...family is not an easy concept.

What bothers me is my trusted family, what should be my primary
source of support, has really let me down
*****
Yup, that's what happened. It is their loss ultimately, not yours.

I can not share my joy over seeing less tarter on their teeth(really
wish I had taken pictures to document the change, its wonderful) with
my family...I can not share how happy I am with the differences Im
seeing in just general well being of my dogs
*****
Pish tosh. You can share with us. You can share with people who
have figured out there are better ways to raise dogs; on this list,
on other lists. Truly, it is your family that is missing out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12314

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. goose
From: cidny61

2a. Re: I am scared silly
From: miensasis

3.1. Re: Introduction
From: cactususan

4a. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: cypressbunny
4b. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: miensasis
4c. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: Sarah
4d. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: carnesbill
4e. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: v_rod_or

5a. Re: When if ever supplements?
From: Sai Simonson
5b. Re: When if ever supplements?
From: Sandee Lee

6.1. Supplements
From: Sai Simonson
6.2. Re: Supplements
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: Marcella Burgess

8a. Re: another newbie
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: another newbie
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: another newbie
From: mozookpr

9a. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: spricketysprock
9b. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: Loose Stool issues
From: katkellm
10b. Re: Loose Stool issues
From: carnesbill

11a. It's working
From: Mary Tinder
11b. Re: It's working
From: jennifer_hell

12a. Excessive urinating
From: eu_azi
12b. Re: Excessive urinating
From: Laura Atkinson

13a. Newbie intro
From: gudrun032150

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. goose
Posted by: "cidny61" blujack@verizon.net cidny61
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:39 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, h h <deedeekinsisme@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese
(he just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers
off I put them in freezer bags~
>

Hi,
I have a friend that gives me any of last years geese when the new
hunting season is about to start. My 175 lb Rott and 50 lb Pitt love
it! I love it too because all I do is thaw and toss. The person that
shoots the geese has already plucked them! It is all dark meat and the
dogs act just like they are getting beef. If it was still feathered I
would try feeding it in the yard and just see what happens. I also
have parrots that may be a little upset if they saw a fully feathered
bird being eaten by the dogs.
Cindy A

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:03 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
>
> I have stayed up half the night every night for the past week
> researching how to do this right, and think I know enough to at
> least make a start. There is just one problem.
>
> I am terrified.

Hello there....

I can totally understand where you are at right now. Others here are
correct...there is a disconnect between your intellect and your
emotions. It was like this for me, too. I researched and read and was
convinced raw was the way to go but I was scared to death to take the
plunge. The day I laid down that first chicken leg quarter, I watched
as my dogs tried to make sense of this new food. I found I had to cut
little piece of flesh off and feed it to them so they knew it was
food. They gobbled it and then they picked up the quarter in their
mouths, trying to get somewhere with it. But they were obviously not
biting down hard enough. It sounded like a person with no teeth,
gumming their food...LOL. But then they got it....CRUNCH! It
literally held my breath from afar as I watched them chew and crunch.
In no time that quarter was gone. And then I exhaled. And then the
worry came again....Did they chew it enough??? It seemed to happen so
fast! Would it get stuck in their intestinal tract??? Would they be
able to digest it??? Of course it was all fine!

It got better after that....PROMISE! It's been over 2 months now and
I've grown to love the sound of that crunch. I love to watch them
figure out their food. I love to watch them meet the challenge. I
love feeding them raw!!! I've used the info I gleaned in my reading
and have gained experience. I feed big pieces/parts and I've not had a
single choking incident. My biggest mistake was rushing variety too
soon. After one good week on chicken, I added eggs and beef. One of
my wheatens had some explosive diarrhea during week two, but I backed
up and took it slow and now at over 2 months they are able to eat just
about anything. I found that once they got used to 3 or 4 different
types of proteins, everything else that's new is a piece of cake.

So my advice is to JUST DO IT! Give yourself permission to be nervous,
and take small steps, one day at a time. Start with chicken, chicken,
chicken for a long while. When they are used to it, you can choose
bits of the next protein you want to introduce and add them to your
chicken base. Work up to larger meals of that new protein and when
that's good, go back to chicken and add the next new one.

And best of all...remember you are not doing this alone. You have a
whole list of people here to guide you when you are stuck, or nervous,
or need a little reassurance.

Good luck!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (7)
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3.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "cactususan" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

>large animal meat upsets them.

If they're morally opposed, they're in quite a pickle.

Rudy, my 13 year-old, 9# min-pin is missing 8 front teeth due to a
life-time ki**le diet. He has been a Raw Dog for just over a month.

His first meal was a turkey neck. He lit into it as if he was
starving. I feed him the whole neck, but remove it when I
guesstimate that he's had his 1.5 ounce meal. That way it's not
artificially cut.

On Thanksgiving day, I plunked down a whole, thawed 14# turkey for:
MerLyn, 30# female Aussie cattle dog,
Guenevere, 40# female Akita-Aussie shepherd mix,
Buster, my son's 60# male pit mix,
and of course Rudy, and stood back.

I left the neck & guts in position (unnatural though it was) to see
the results.

Buster & MerLyn were the alpha-diners. Buster aimed for the guts.
When he walked away, MerLyn took up his position at the front of the
bird. Buster returned & asserted dominance. When I decided they'd
had enough, I put them inside & watched Guen & Rudy dine.

Today is the 4th day for the turkey. MerLyn & Rudy still play tug-
of-war with it twice a day. He tugs & growls, she ignores him.

Guen in NOT food driven, and seems to be burned out on the turkey.
Oh well.

I approach feeding the dogs the same way I raised 3 boys:

They'll eat when they're hungry, and they'll eat what's in front
of them... or wait for the next scheduled meal.

(My young humanoids are 6', 6'4" and 6'4". Didn't stunt their
growth any...)

As a tease, you might sear the meat slightly. The aroma is probably
what brought the first wolves to the fire of early man.

And for goodness sake, don't "hover--" you're the Alpha Dog! You went
hunting & brought back this great stuff! Don't let 'em yank your chain!

Susan Fortune
Southern California

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (369)
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4a. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:12 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...>
wrote:
>
> What bothers me is my trusted family, what should be my primary
source of support, has really let me down.

*** Well, you've turned your back on everything they taught you
about science, nutrition, etc. No doubt they feel that you've
betrayed them and ignored their experience and knowledge and got
sucked into and brainwashed by the raw feeding cult (some truth to
that, probably--most of our brains needed a good washing to get all
the baked on grime cleaned off). They don't want to hear your
replies for two reasons. One, they already know better, and Two, if
it turned out you were right and they were wrong that makes them
look like lifetime idiots.

Because when I try, I am met with skepticism and down right
meanness. This really has surprised me.

*** Nobody likes to be wrong, and some like it even less than others.

> So forgive me fellow listers if I seek emotional support here more
than what might be typical of a newbie, I need you folks more now
than ever!

*** That's what we're here for. No worries.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...>
wrote:
>
I am wondering what sort of problems you folks faced from family and
friends when switching to raw? I am under a verbal barage of
questions and really ridiculous ass-umations on the part of some
friends and all of my family (except my daughter, lol) I was nearly
assaulted over thanksgiving.
> Now most of these came from my family...I come from a family of dog
folks who are quite knowledgeable, but apparently just as brainwashed
as perhaps I used to be. My family has deep roots in western medicine
and all things traditional.
>

Michelle...

Are we related??? LOL. You're family sounds suspiciously like mine.
I've learned to set boundaries over the years. Here are the lessons
I've learned in dealing with them (and others):

1. I don't have to tell them everything I do.
2. If they ask questions, I am authentic and truthfully answer
their questions, but I don't expect their approval.
3. I don't defend what I do.
4. I don't let them lure me into conversations about what I consider
off-boundary topics. It's really hard for someone to have a one-
way conversation...lol.

If your family is like mine, you could give them all the evidence on
the benefits of raw, debunk all their myths, and they still wouldn't
buy it. All you'd end up doing by trying to open their minds is put
yourself in the position where they feel they have the right to
criticize your choices. I'm sorry you had to spend your Thanksgiving
in the hot seat!!

Remember....it's YOUR life, your choices. You can set boundaries and
still love your family. Accept them for who they are, limitations
and all. Bottom line is they love you, too, and while they may not
like it at first, they will come to respect the boundaries you
lovingly, but firmly set with them.

Hope that helps!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, Michelle here. I have a question and sorry if this is
offtopic. I am wondering what sort of problems you folks faced from
family and friends when switching to raw?

Hi Michelle, I am very new to raw as well (this is my 10th day)
although I've been researching it for several weeks. Fortunately my
family and partner have been very supportive (apart from a few
questions about the safety of chicken bones from my grandparents). As
far as they are concerned, it's my dog and I can feed him how I see fit.

I have mentioned the prey model diet to a few dog walkers who I meet
regularly. There hasn't been huge objections, but they all have
said 'Oh, I could never feed my dog anything raw!'. One man
said 'Well, it's just how they would eat in the wild isn't it?' I was
so pleased when he said this.

My advice is, stick to your guns. It's your dog and you know you are
doing the best thing by feeding raw. If people don't want to listen to
your reasons then they are not worth explaining to. Good luch for the
future.

Sarah Jones (UK)

Messages in this topic (7)
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4d. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:52 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, Michelle here. I have a question and sorry if this
> is offtopic. I am wondering what sort of problems you folks
> faced from family and friends when switching to raw?

Look at the bright side. Since your kitchen is going to be so nasty
with all those germs and e-coli and salmonella and stuff, the family
won't want you to cook for them anymore. :) :) :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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4e. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "v_rod_or" v_rod_or@yahoo.com v_rod_or
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:28 pm ((PST))

> I am under a verbal barage of questions and really ridiculous
ass-umations on the part of some friends and all of my family...

Welcome to the club! You have lots of company here. When I decided
to start feeding Spike raw food, I received feedback ranging from
"irresponsible" to "trendy" to "stupid" from people I cared about,
including friends, family, and our vet.

Since then, I've read a small library of books on the subject. I have
located a new vet who is knowledgeable about and supportive of raw
feeding, and I've worked my way through the archives and kept up with
the new posts here. I've talked to breeders and owners and meat
producers. I've done my homework about commercial dog food, too.

Most important, I've seen the changes in Spike. He acts more
energetic, his skin has cleared up and his coat is shinier, he looks
healthier and more fit than he ever has, and he is eager to eat, where
he was indifferent towards kibble.

People will disagree with many of the decisions you make in life.
They will tell you how you should vote, how you should raise your
children, how you should worship, and even how you should feed your
dog. Ultimately, it's your life and the choices are yours to make.

Raw feeding isn't as easy or as cheap a choice as opening a bag of
kibble. It isn't as popular, either. All I can say is this: For me
and my dog, the choice has been a worthwhile one.

Rod & Spike
Eugene, OR

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: When if ever supplements?
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Sandee,
Thanks for the reminder about adding variety.
Poultry is relatively cheap (if you mean spending 4 times the amount of
my food). Finding less expensive sources is my quest. Thus far lots of
driving has been involved and I must admit I am spoiled by having Winco,
Costco, Safeway, etc. close....like within a mile.
Sai

==================
From: Sandee
When feeding a prey model there is generally not a need for supplements, but
that would mean you need to add some variety and red meat to your diet! :))
If you look at the natural diet of a carnivore, it consists mainly of large
ungulates....red meat, 80% meat, only about 10% edible bone and 10% organs.

Sounds like your dogs have adjusted to poultry just fine so time to begin
adding in variety in body parts, protein sources and lots more meat....pork,
beef, venison, fish, goat, lamb....whatever you can get your hands on!
--

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: When if ever supplements?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:50 am ((PST))

Sai,

I don't have a Winco but I'm sure I've heard about some good deals/sales
there...I do have Safeway and that's where I get most of my pork and
chicken. They seem to have sales quite regularly.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>
> Thanks for the reminder about adding variety.
> Poultry is relatively cheap (if you mean spending 4 times the amount of
> my food). Finding less expensive sources is my quest. Thus far lots of
> driving has been involved and I must admit I am spoiled by having Winco,
> Costco, Safeway, etc. close....like within a mile.

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. Supplements
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Oh never mind!!!
Sai now repeating, dogs are not omnivores, but carnivores. They do not
need additives if they get variety of meats and bones and some organs.

I think I have it!!
but but but, don't they need probiotics? This supplement thing is dying
hard.

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (152)
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6.2. Re: Supplements
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

Nope...they have all the friendly bacteria and enzymes they require unless
of course there has been an acute illness with prolonged diarrhea,
antibiotic use, etc. Their bodies really are designed to handle the food
they are designed to eat without our intervention!!!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>
> Sai now repeating, dogs are not omnivores, but carnivores. They do not
> need additives if they get variety of meats and bones and some organs.
>
> I think I have it!!
> but but but, don't they need probiotics? This supplement thing is dying
> hard.

Messages in this topic (152)
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7a. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "Marcella Burgess" proudfootkennels@sympatico.ca marciongrass
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Hi Sallie,

We feed all of our boerboels raw and when we made the switch over it was a problem for only one of them as that one was an import and not initially raised on raw, but we took it slowly and steadily and now .... he has definitely made the switch over to raw with enthusiasm!
Good Luck with everything and drop us a line sometime... I would love to hear how everything is going!

Sincerely,
Marcella Burgess
Proudfoot Kennels

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: another newbie
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "peggyparker_4"
<peggyparker_4@...> wrote:
>
> Yesterday I brought home a 3 month old Toy Fox Terrier who
> has been on
> raw, and the breeder sent me home with a bag of this stuff.

What kind of "stuff" was it.

> Last
> night, the puppy licked at it some but would not eat it,
> even though I
> offered it to him at least 3 different times.

It's pretty common for puppies away from mom and siblings for the
first time go off food for a day or 2. They are pretty upset,
scared, and overall stressed. They are in a new world with no idea
what is going on.

> Late last night I opened a bag of Nutri kibble the pet store
> had given me, and he went at it as if he had never eaten in
> his life.

I suppose he was attracted by the used restaurant grease and other
stuff put in kibble to make it smell good to dogs. It is an
entirely species inappropriate food for a dog.

> My question is, maybe he is too young to do the raw, and
> the kibble will be okay until he gets a little older, at
> which time I could attempt it again. Any thoughts on
> this procedure?

No, no, no, a thousands times no. He is not too young for raw.
Many many dogs are weaned to raw and it sounds like this pup was
also. There is no way on the face of the earth that a highly
processed grain based cereal is the ideal food for even the youngest
of carnivores. Give the kibble away and forget it.

Begin researching raw feeding immediately. A few informative web
sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

Go back and read pasts posts on this list. There is a world of
information here. Do your puppy a huge favor and don't feed him
another bite of that garbage.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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8b. Re: another newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:20 pm ((PST))

Peggy,

If what she sent home with you was in a bag, sounds like it is some sort of
premade mix? I would get that little guy some real food! :) Here are some
puppy feeding/weaning messages from the archives that may be of some help to
you....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/145223

Kibble is never OK and you can't start raw too young. What better time to
feed an appropriate diet so their little bodies can grow up strong and
healthy?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "peggyparker_4" <peggyparker_4@yahoo.com>
Yesterday I brought home a 3 month old Toy Fox Terrier who has been on
raw, and the breeder sent me home with a bag of this stuff. Last
night, the puppy licked at it some but would not eat it, even though I
offered it to him at least 3 different times. Late last night I opened
a bag of Nutri kibble the pet store had given me, and he went at it as
if he had never eaten in his life. Finally, with a full tummy, the pup
slept happily the entire night without a yap in his new cage. My
question is, maybe he is too young to do the raw, and the kibble will
be okay until he gets a little older, at which time I could attempt it
again. Any thoughts on this procedure? Thanks.

Messages in this topic (17)
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8c. Re: another newbie
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dona" <unschool@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I am new here. I have a new (to us) dog, Australian Shepherd,
four years old-ish....I just butchered a calf today (rather the butcher
came and did it), so I have a tongue, a heart, a tail, and some tripe
(tripe will take 3 days or so to fully clean)...

> Thanks
>
> Dona

Dona,

I am new to the list, too. Still in the researching phase, in fact,
and looking for a freezer to stock up on food for my two dogs and six
cats. (I know that raw feeding is the right thing to do, but want to
be both informed and prepared when I start, however, that is another
post...)

Anyway, before you clean the tripe, do read up on green tripe. It is,
as far as I am able to tell, pretty much "as is" and is supposed to be
an awesome raw food. Check out www.greentripe.com for more information.

My apologies if you already knew this, but I was so envious when I saw
the great stuff you have from butchering that I wanted to share!

Good luck with your new friend!~

Wendy

Messages in this topic (17)
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9a. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

Jen,
I'm pretty sure that feeding LESS food, and MORE bone is the way to
firm up stools. Being that this is a puppy, you can't deprive him for
too long, so maybe you should try to do a gradual approach either
mixing a little amount in his kibble or just with some plain rice, and
gradually increase the amount over time.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <wolfiejack@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 9 week old border collie puppy that I've had for a
> week and a half.

*snip stuff*

> He is having horrible, watery diarrhea. I have only been feeding
> chicken leg quarters or chicken thighs. I divide his meals into
> 3 to 4 feedings per day. I've tried removing the skin, using
> less bone...nothing is helping.

The first thing I worry about with pups this age getting watery
diarrhea is parvo. I would confirm that is not the problem. Next I
would cut back on the volume of his chicken and remove the skin like
you are already doing. I wouldn't decrease the bone percentage.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Loose Stool issues
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Tetzlaff <stetzlaff@...> wrote:
>They both get 5-6 ounces a day, so do I add small pieces of beef or
>other red meat to their daily chicken pieces, and gradually increase
>the amount of beef and decrease the amount of chcken?

Hi Sylvia,
For some reason, brain freeze probably, i couldn't answer your
questions in the order you asked them, so i took the liberty of
scrambling up your questions. This is the exact perfect way to
introduce new proteins. You have forever to feed new and exciting
meals, but for right now slow and steady beats the carefree intro.

> My question is, how much new meat should I add to a tolerated meat
source (in my case, chicken, which they are both doing well on), and
how soon? Will their stools eventually firm up after a meal of just
meaty meat? Or do I follow up a meaty meat meal in the a.m. with a
bone-in meal in the p.m.?

If they did well on chicken for a week, you were ready to move on,
just not the way you moved on. Eventually you will be able to feed
just all meat meals in one day, but that is probably a ways down the
road for you dogs. For now, i would go back to square one. If you
want to, you could remove the skin and the fat from the chicken for a
couple of meals, and if all is well, start leaving the chicken in tact
and feed for about a week again. Then, implement your new intro plan.
You didn't ask, so i don't know how you'll feel, but i'm not a big
fan of beef as a second protein choice. Beef tends to be a richer
protein for some dogs. Also, beef bones are too dense and are not
edible for dogs. How about pork or turkey? Both of them have edible
bones and tend to be easier to digest. Make sure just because you are
mixing up proteins and amounts of meats per meal, that you don't over
feed.
I would keep some bone in at least one meal for awhile. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Loose Stool issues
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:52 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Tetzlaff <stetzlaff@...>
wrote:
>
> My question is, how much new meat should I add to a
> tolerated meat source (in my case, chicken, which they are
> both doing well on), and how soon?

I usually suggest 2 weeks on chicken only. After that I suggest
adding turkey, not to a meal but alternate meals between turkey and
chicken. I use turkey second because it's not all that different
than chicken. If all is going ok in a week, I suggest adding pork.
Pork is usually easier to digest than beef and in my mind, makes a
good choice for 3rd protein source. I would feed a couple of pork
meals a week and the rest alternated between chicken and turkey.
After a few pork meals with no problems, THEN I suggest beef. Make
the beef meal smaller than the other meals for a while until they ar
digesting it well. After pork is digesting well, fish would be the
next addition. I feed one fish meal a week.

> Will their stools eventually firm up after a meal of just
> meaty meat?

I feed meat only meals 2 or 3 times a week and never noticed any
appreciable difference in stools. I wouldn't feed any meat only
meals until you get to pork(3rd or 4th week).

> Or do I follow up a meaty meat meal in the a.m. with a
> bone-in meal in the p.m.?

I don't feed 2 meat only meals in a row. I'm sure lot of people do.

> My other problem is that both dogs are not very big (one is
> 10.4 lbs, the other is 11.4),

My dogs are Great Danes so someone else will have to help you with
the small dog stuff. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. It's working
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:54 pm ((PST))

I'm one who worried about my dane "wolfing" his chicken in three
chomps, devoured a goat leg in 20 minutes etc.
Just wanted to share that Rumble is no longer going at his food like a
starving dog! I can't remember who told me this would happen but it
has! Now I'm actually taking up leftovers and saving for next time. He
just seems a bit more content? Thanks
Mary T

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: It's working
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
That's great to hear!

Jennifer with Mandy (who still wolfs down salmon and beef, but slowed
down with chicken, venison and turkey)

> Just wanted to share that Rumble is no longer going at his food like a
> starving dog! I can't remember who told me this would happen but it
> has! Now I'm actually taking up leftovers and saving for next time. He
> just seems a bit more content? Thanks
> Mary T
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Excessive urinating
Posted by: "eu_azi" dantennispro@gmail.com eu_azi
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:28 pm ((PST))

Hi everybody.
I've been feeding raw for the last 10 years so I'm not "new" at this.
The problem that I have is with my new 8 weeks old gsd female. I got
her about a week ago…kept her for few days on the k she was on at the
breeder. Few days ago I made the switch…no loose stools, she loves it,
and everything is great except she urinates much, much more then
before. More frequently and much more volume. I feed her chicken only,
no skin, very little bone. She doesn't seem to drink more water but she
eliminates much more then before. I never had this problem. Did anybody
encounter this? Any suggestions would be great.
thank you,
dantennispro@gmail.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Excessive urinating
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:32 pm ((PST))

It's not necessarily a bad thing. Raw food has tons more moisture than
kibble. If she's doing the squat and dribble, with no output, then she may
have a UTI and that'd be the first thing I'd check...otherwise she's just
getting lots of moisture in her meals and her body is dealing with it.

On Nov 25, 2007 1:54 PM, eu_azi <dantennispro@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi everybody.
> I've been feeding raw for the last 10 years so I'm not "new" at this.
> The problem that I have is with my new 8 weeks old gsd female. I got
> her about a week ago…kept her for few days on the k she was on at the
> breeder. Few days ago I made the switch…no loose stools, she loves it,
> and everything is great except she urinates much, much more then
> before. More frequently and much more volume. I feed her chicken only,
> no skin, very little bone. She doesn't seem to drink more water but she
> eliminates much more then before. I never had this problem. Did anybody
> encounter this? Any suggestions would be great.
> thank you,
> dantennispro@gmail.com
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Newbie intro
Posted by: "gudrun032150" gudrun032150@yahoo.com gudrun032150
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:28 pm ((PST))

Hi all
I'm Kathy from northern california. I live with Odie, a year +- few
months old rescue catahoula/hound/??? from the Mendocino County Animal
Care & Control shelter. I also foster dogs who are having a
particularly difficult time in the shelter, or are undergoing
heartworm, etc.

I lost my beloved Dobies to cancer; one this past April (lymphoma) and
one two and a half years ago (Hemangiosarcoma.) Another Dobie was lost
to cardiomyopathy. One guy lived to about 13! And two terrier mutts
lived to 14 & 16!

I have signed up for a delivery, first one on Dec. 10.
I'M VERY NERVOUS! thought i would peek around and try to find out more
and more.

Kathy & Odie (and foster dog Sammie--kelpie looking for a home.)

Messages in this topic (23)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12313

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: atmanandadevotee
1b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: jennifer_hell
1c. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: Marc Gemis

2a. comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
From: Michelle R
2b. Re: comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
From: jennifer_hell

3a. Re: 11 year old bulldog
From: monicanation7
3b. Re: 11 year old bulldog
From: monicanation7

4. raw feeding....inside/out, using pens and vinyl cloths
From: Michelle R

5a. Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: Sallie Taylor
5b. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: katkellm

6. Welcome newbie Peggy...advice
From: Michelle R

7a. Re: Bacteria and RAW
From: ada
7b. Re: new to my golden
From: Marjet Wolbertus
7c. Re: new to my golden
From: Casey Post

8a. Re: Preparing Quail
From: costrowski75

9a. Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: Jen
9b. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: Casey Post
9c. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: Michelle R

10.1. Salmon Oil
From: cynthiashankman

11a. Support when making the switch?
From: Michelle R
11b. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: mmc2315

12a. Re: I am scared silly
From: costrowski75
12b. Re: I am scared silly
From: delcaste

13. Loose Stool issues
From: Sylvia Tetzlaff

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "atmanandadevotee" atmanandadevotee@yahoo.fr atmanandadevotee
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michal Cline" <Mcline30@...>
wrote:
>
> I an fairly new to raw feeding (a little over 2 months) and have 2
> parti Standard Poodles from the States. Both boys are doing VERY
> well with their new diet although Victor,(17 kilo) the 3 year old
> needs to have his food hand feed to him. Yes, he is spoiled. Aramis,
> (25 kilo)the 2 year old, just chews away with much pleasure.
>
> My problem is: we live in a small fishing village outside
Montpellier
> so no problem getting Omega 3, fresh sardines and mackeral is
> inexpensive, but the cost of meat including chicken is
astronomical.
>
> I know from reading the material provided through this site that
they
> need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
> where we can get red meat at a reasonable price? Chicken here is
at
> least 2,98 euros a kilo which comes out to over 2 dollars a pound.
> Red meat starts at about 6 euros a kilo. We spent at least 40 euros
a
> week on dog food! To my knowledge most here feed kibble.
>
> I feed mostly chicken halved or in quarters and when I can liver,
> heart, and tongue from pig, beef and lamb, and eggs. The problem
is
> that the French eat almost all parts of animals so they are not
ever
> on sale!
>
> BTW, this is an incredible group and I thank everyone for all the
> information on raw feeding! What a difference!
>
> Michal in Southern France
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michal Cline" <Mcline30@...> wrote:

> I know from reading the material provided through this site that they
> need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
> where we can get red meat at a reasonable price? Chicken here is at
> least 2,98 euros a kilo which comes out to over 2 dollars a pound.
> Red meat starts at about 6 euros a kilo. We spent at least 40 euros a
> week on dog food!

You'll be able to find a butcher on the countryside that will let you
have the stuff that is left over after trimming the meat. Also tripe.
Start looking around and make contact with local breeders. There will
be an association of farmers and/ or breeders in your region/ or the
adjoining département. Ask there where you can get stuff for cheap. I
pay 3 Euros per kilo for free range chicken here, it's worth it to me.
I feed it only once a week. Right now I feed a lot of venison, which
is in season right now and available for little money. I have an extra
freezer which I stock up with about 80 kilos of venison to last me
over the year.
You need to go out and ask around. You might need to drive farer away,
but then you can stock up.

Jennifer from Germany (who had to find sources, too- and was successful)

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "Marc Gemis" marc.gemis@pandora.be xianbowie
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

Hallo Michal,

I live in Belgium and I can tell you that the prices here are about the
same. We most of the time spend our holidays in France (last year it was
Bordeaux, this year it was the Bourgogne area.) I must say that this year I
found a lot of lamb at extremely cheap prices (compared to Belgium)
Our supermarkets do sales at -50% last day they can sell the meat.
Especially on a Saturday evening, when they are not open on Sunday, you can
buy a lot of meat on half the price.
Good luck !
Tinne

---
Marc Gemis & Tinne Van Hooydonck
The Whippets :
* Renko Di Mahana - Belgian Coursing Champion 1996
* Ch. L'Entente Cordiale Xtraxian - Belgian Coursing Champion 2000
* Ch. Moonlake Making Sure (Bowie) - WCD Clubsieger 2003, NWC winner 2005
* Edi Finn aus dem Gnomenhain (Funky)
Our Groenendael :
* Princesse des Perles Noires (Ixelle)
http://users.pandora.be/whippet
http://xian.smugmug.com

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

At my house, my kids mostly eat outside, (on grass) unless it happens to be a ground beef meal, which they can eat inside out of a bowl (still have the 2 who wont take it from a bowl and get hand fed). Since winter seems to have finally settled in here ( MS, USA) and I have nekkid babies,(Chinese Cresteds) even with their warm winter fleecies on, its very cold for them to continue eating outside as they have been.
My friend/mentor uses a steam cleaner on her floor and I really love the idea of cleaning, really sanitizing without the use of alot of harsh chemicals, such as bleech. I do admit I use a cholox cleaner on the counter after Ive been preparing the raw stuff. I am a bit of a germ-a-phob tho. I even wipe doorknobs and everything. ;-)
I am new to raw tho and I expect as I get more comfortable, I will not be as phobic about my cleaning.
;-)
I have either vinyl flooring or hardwood thru-out the house, so cleaning will be easy, esp on the vinyl.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:

> I have either vinyl flooring or hardwood thru-out the house, so
cleaning will be easy, esp on the vinyl.
>

Why not use these wax table cloths, and feed them in a pen, like those
available for human babies? =)

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: 11 year old bulldog
Posted by: "monicanation7" monicanation@hvc.rr.com monicanation7
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

thanks very much !
i threw down some turkey neck and she
didn't go for it - but loves beef shank
no more grinding - i'll check archives for
some add'l tips.
best,
monica
-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "monicanation7" <monicanation@> wrote:
> >> hi i'm new to the group and wanted some advice about portions and
> suppliments.
> *****
> This part is easy: feed 2%-3% of your dog's ideal adult weight using
> a variety of animal proteins and a variety of body parts. Use
> supplements if and when specific issues require them.
> Supplementing "just because" is like throwing darts in the dark.
>
>
> my
> > bulldog began showing signs of arthritis - was limping etc and had
> a really dry nose - an
> > eye was starting to get a white film - scary!
> *****
> How old is your bulldog?
>
>
> anyway since i started her on raw meat - i
> > started with ground beef adding carrots - parsley - flax seed -
> brewers yeast - beef hearts
> > ground - liver ground - made into patties - froze it and kept three
> days in the fridge at a
> > time - (we call it the meat drop) he arthritis is gone - her nose
> is wet - her skin has
> > blackened where it had "faded" and her eye is totally healed. she
> lost about 7 (un-needed)
> > pounds and looks like a puppy - so i am sure i'm on the right path -
> even at this late stage
> > in the game.
> *****
> This is exceptionally good fortune. While her current menu is not
> optimal in several areas, it does provide clear evidence that kibble
> sucks. Imagine what you will be doing for her when you stop feeding
> her plant matter and ground meats and start feeding her a good
> species appropriate diet! Zounds!
>
> She doesn't need ground anything. She doesn't need patties. She
> needs edible bone for nutrients (including but not limited to
> calcium), for dental hygiene, for physical and mental amusement. And
> you don't need the extra work. Better to spend "prep" time looking
> for lovely meaty body parts that will never see the inside of a
> grinder.
>
>
> my vet said that raw chicken can kill a dog via salmonella
> > (sp) and under no circumstances should i feed the dog raw chicken -
> and she basically
> > looked at me like i was killing my dog by feeding it raw -
> like "you'll see" - i didn't stop
> > the diet but stopped chicken.
> *****
> This is one of an undereducated vet's primary threats. Baloney.
>
> Feed chicken knowing FULL well that a dog's digestive system is
> different from a human's, and that any animal that licks its butt and
> genitals and eats dead things and cat poop and worms is not bothered
> by raw chicken. Know also that kibble is similarly burdened with
> bacteria not to mention other germy "contaminants". Fear of germs
> runs deep in the medical profession.
>
> You may be doing your girl some injustice by feeding ground meat and
> veggie patties but you are a LONG way from killing her. If you're
> interested, we have any number of references you can give to your
> misguided vet. At the very least you should definitely check out:
>
> http://rawfed.com
> http://rawfeddogs.net

>
>
> - no i'm reading that grinding the meat is not good and she
> > should have pieces etc.. with bone..
> > what exactly should i ask my butcher for?
> *****
> These questions have been asked and answered thousands of times, no
> fooling. Please take some time to browse the message archives. If
> you do not have access Yahoogroups, please join (it's easy) and go
> the Rawfeeding home page and proceed to poke around in the hoard of
> information the archives provide.
>
> --what to tell the butcher you want (don't ask, tell)
> --what are organs and what are not and how to feed either
> --what are "wreck" bones and how not to fall victim to them
> --why vegetables are neither useful nor recommended
> --why feeding larger meals once a day (or less) may benefit your dog
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: 11 year old bulldog
Posted by: "monicanation7" monicanation@hvc.rr.com monicanation7
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

thanks for the feedback!
monica
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "monicanation7"
> <monicanation@> wrote:
> >
> > i
> > started with ground beef adding carrots - parsley - flax seed -
> brewers yeast - beef hearts
> > ground - liver ground - made into patties - froze it and kept
> three days in the fridge at a
> > time - (we call it the meat drop)
>
>
> > two questions- my vet said that raw chicken can kill a dog
> > via salmonella
> > (sp) and under no circumstances should i feed the dog raw
> > chicken
>
> Your vet needs to study the physiology of a dog. Something she
> should have spend a great deal of time doing in vet school. Dogs
> stomach acids are very very strong. Strong enough to kill and
> salmonella or e-coli or other such bacteria. The intestines are
> short enough that food is expelled from be body before any more can
> form. Salmonella just isn't a problem for dogs.
>
> I have fed my dogs raw chicken every day for over 5 years. I can't
> remember any digestive upset in the last 3 or 4 of those years.
>
> > i didn't stop
> > the diet but stopped chicken.
>
> Feed chicken. Its good for your dog. The bones will do wonders for
> his teeth. Don't grind it. Feed whole chicken parts.
>
> > what exactly should i ask my butcher for?
>
> You can feed whole chickens, half chickens, chicken quarters or
> individual chicken parts depending on the size of your dog. You can
> feed any part of the chicken, turkey, pig, cow, rabbit, goat, lamb
> that you want except maybe the intestines and stomach.
>
> > shoud i cut a piece of liver and or heart and just
> > throw it into the bowl?
>
> Yes
>
> > how much?
>
> Just a little to begin with. Add more over time when you are sure
> it doesn't cause digestive upset. You don't really need to feed
> much. I feed just a glob once a week or so. Maybe 1/2lb each to my
> Great Danes.
>
> > plus lots of marrow bones
>
> I wouldn't feed marrow bones. Too hard on teeth. I don't feed any
> beef bones at all.
>
> > what about parsley - carrots etc.. is
> > this a waste to give her?
>
> Yes, absolutely. Dogs are carnivores. They don't need nor can they
> properly digest veggies and friuts and grains.
>
> > i'm a believer in the diet - you'd be foolish to feed your
> > dog anything else!
>
> Exactly!
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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4. raw feeding....inside/out, using pens and vinyl cloths
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:19 am ((PST))

Oh Ive got plenty of ex pens and even have those cheapo vinyl table cloths too...
I have dutch doors so keeping them in one room or another isnt a problem. They would not have free range of the whole house (never do anyway)
Thanks for the suggestion tho, much appreciated.
:-)

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "Sallie Taylor" treterra@yahoo.com treterra
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Want to begin "real" raw feeding for both dogs listed above. Bullmastiff is on 1/2 Nature's Variety and 1/2 Enova Evo now. What do I feed, how much do I feed, and how often? What to watch for to monitor success?

Thanks, Sallie

---------------------------------
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5b. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:24 am ((PST))

Sallie Taylor <treterra@...> wrote:
>
> Want to begin "real" raw feeding for both dogs listed above.
Bullmastiff is on 1/2 Nature's Variety and 1/2 Enova Evo now. What
do I feed, how much do I feed, and how often? What to watch for to
monitor success?
*****
Get rid of the commercial food. Buy two chickens. Feed the
bullsmastiff one of the chickens, probably best to give half at one
meal and the other half as the second meal. The pup will get the same
total amount, just feed through the chicken in smaller meals, say
three meals.

Save the necks, gizzards, hearts and livers for later. Actually give
the necks and gizzards to a cat. The hearts and livers you can feed
later to your dogs.

Do the same thing tomorrow. If the dogs have loose stools, feed less
chicken and/or remove the skin.

Do the same thing the next day.

I urge to you joing Yahoogroups in order to access the list
archives. Your questions have been asked and answered thousands of
times before. There's little reason other than inertia for you not
to use the archives as a major learning tool. Also check out:

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net

When in doubt, reduce and simplify.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sallie Taylor <treterra@...> wrote:
>
> Want to begin "real" raw feeding for both dogs listed above.
Bullmastiff is on 1/2 Nature's Variety and 1/2 Enova Evo now. What do
I feed, how much do I feed, and how often? What to watch for to
monitor success?

Hi Sallie,
The best thing to do is stop feeding the kibble and start feeding raw,
no transitioning or mixing, out with the kibble, in with the raw.
Chicken is normally the recommended starting protein because it comes
with lots of meat, some bone, is easy to dole out into appropriate
size pieces, and is cheapest and easiest to find. You want to feed 2%
of your dog's ideal adult weight per day. If you feed once a day now,
i would stick with once a day. If you feed twice a day, you can stick
with that for now if you want to. For your puppy, you want to feed 2%
of his ideal ADULT weight per day. Since you didn't state the pup's
age, i will say that you definitely want to feed at least 2 meals a
day, maybe 3, if the puppy is under 6 months. You will want to feed
chicken for a week and see how things go. Since you have big dogs, no
wings unless they are still attached to the bird and no necks. Any
other variation of chicken, breasts, halves, quarters, will enable you
to say you fed through the whole bird. Success is usually talked
about, during the introduction period, in terms of loose stools. Loose
stools, though a pita to the owner, don't bother the dog and normally
result from too much food, too much new food too quickly, too much
fat, too much organ meat fed too soon. HTH,KathyM

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6. Welcome newbie Peggy...advice
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Peggy, Hello and welcome to the list. I know others will chime in here, but I will go ahead and add my 2 cents worth. :-)
Many, if not most breeders who feed raw will wean their pups directly onto raw. Your breeder knows what the pup has already been eating and since shes feeding raw, she knows best in this situation. If the pup didnt eat, it was probably the stress of moving, new home, new family, new smells, etc. If he didnt eat, he just wasnt ready to eat. K***le is a bad word. It contains very addictive type stuff and smells to intice the pup. He ate as any child would eat, if offered only a bowl of candy for dinner. My advice, ditch the nasty k***le and go back to what hes been rasied on and what he knows and what you already know is best for him. :-) Its like "they" say...no dog will starve with food in front of him. Also, since I am a breeder and know what goes into any responsibly bred litter by a dedicated breeder.... I will say that I can guarantee your breeder would appreciate a phone call to discuss this and please please please do NOT feed any more k***le!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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7a. Re: Bacteria and RAW
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

--- Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
> Good for you! That is a far healthier approach for
> you, your pets and your family. While I believe in
> normal handwashing and cleaning up my kitchen,
> etc., the reason we have things like MRSA is because
> of our fear of bacteria which has led to overuse and
> misuse of disinfectants, antibacterial soaps
> and antibiotics! Vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will
> do nicely. :))
>
> From: "Mystykalsky" <jacklab@nbnet.nb.ca>
> I have 3 kids here and I can certainly say that I
> DON"T handle the food carefuly.. NOT ONE BIT...
> my door handles are handled by ME full of raw food
> on them and I think of cleaning them..but NEVER
> do... SO I have to wonder about this sometimes..
>
While you're right about we humans creating the
SUPERgerms, the fact is that they ARE here. Until
you've almost lost your only child to staph - and
then, you fight it yourself after heart surgery, I
guess one can afford to hold to such a cavalier attitude. Yes,
vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will do nicely - I use
diluted vinegar and just scrub up my cutting boards
w/soap and hot water. But, I think it's flirting with
disaster to admit NEVER taking even the most basic
precautions of cleaning.

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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7b. Re: new to my golden
Posted by: "Marjet Wolbertus" marjetwolbertus@sbcglobal.net marjetsf
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Thank you for the great support. 3 weeks ago she had a grand mal
seizure and shocked the hell out of us. Vet said there was nothing
wrong with her after blood tests. She has weight issues and the vet
placed her on rd diet, she is 4 and weighs 93 lbs. a very tall golden
retriever. only eats 1 cup am and 1 pm plus 1/4 cup of r/d wet food
is always starving, now she is loosing weight, but I feel like she is
eating cardboard. So I am going to start with the chicken, tonite, 1/2
chicken outside on the lawn to see how she handles it. I think she
will love it. According to her weight I figure she needs about 2 lbs.
a day?

Marjet Wolbertus

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7c. Re: new to my golden
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:17 am ((PST))

>3 weeks ago she had a grand mal
> seizure and shocked the hell out of us. Vet said there was nothing
> wrong with her after blood tests. She has weight issues

Seizure and weight issues - I would definitely get this dog screened for
hypothyroidism, if you haven't already. Vets will too often run a simple T4
and declare all within range and leave it at that, but a full six panel
thyroid test is what's really needed for diagnosis.

>So I am going to start with the chicken, tonite, 1/2
> chicken outside on the lawn to see how she handles it. I think she
> will love it. According to her weight I figure she needs about 2 lbs.
> a day?

You say that she is tall - what should her ideal weight be, do you think?
Because that's what you base your starting amount on - what they *should*
weigh as a healthy adult. You can always adjust from there up or down as
needed...

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Preparing Quail
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

"glamour.cupcakes" <glamour.cupcakes@...> wrote:
> My question is, am I supposed to just look for puncture wounds on
> the quail? If I see none, then it should be safe, right?
*****
Yes, if you are feeding whole, fully feathered quail you should check
for shot pellets.

> I just bought a pack of three quails from an ethnic market and from
> what I see, they have been gutted, although all the body parts
> (minus head) is still in place. If it's sold in a supermarket, they
> should have been checked over already for lead pellets, am I correct?
*****
For these however--and other dressed and processed birds--the most
important thing is the remove the packaging before giving the birds to
one's dog or cat. Commercially acquired birds are good to go.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "Jen" wolfiejack@gmail.com esmreldajg
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

I currently have one 2 year old border collie mix on raw. He has done
beautifully on it since switching him a year ago.

I have a 9 week old border collie puppy that I've had for a week and a
half. Mom was raw fed but the pups were weaned onto Timberwolf
Organics kibble. I brought him home one evening and started him on
raw the next day.

This is not going well.

He is having horrible, watery diarrhea. I have only been feeding
chicken leg quarters or chicken thighs. I divide his meals into 3 to
4 feedings per day. I've tried removing the skin, using less bone...
nothing is helping.

While digestive upset in my big dog is not a big deal, I don't want my
puppy going through diarrhea any longer than this. My boss (vet)
would have a fit if he knew this was still going on. The pup is
acting normal, maybe a little less energy today. Fecals have all been
negative. He had normal stools when I first brought him home. I
don't want him getting dehydrated. He actually had diarrhea in his
crate while I was out of the house for an hour, which is not the way I
wanted housetraining to go (he's been perfect otherwise).

Any advice?

-Jen
Wolfie CGC, border collie mix
Scorch, border collie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:19 am ((PST))

> He is having horrible, watery diarrhea. I have only been feeding
> chicken leg quarters or chicken thighs. I divide his meals into 3 to
> 4 feedings per day. I've tried removing the skin, using less bone...
> nothing is helping.

Is it possible that you're overfeeding him? Simple overfeeding can lead to
very loose stools.

My other thought is that not all dogs do well on chicken (and you should
check the labels to make sure you're not feeding enhanced chicken, as that
too can cause loose stools in some dogs). I would change meats and see if
it makes a difference for him.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

If youve had him on raw for 3 to 5 days, I would expect some runny and very loose stools at this time...hes blowing out the crap build up from eating the yucky K***le. I had a few here with that problem around that time in our switch, and my mentor advised me its fairly normal. From what Ive learned, I would suggest more bone, removing the skin and perhaps a bit of pumpkin.
In a pup so young, the concern for dehydration arises. Since you work for a vet, you will know all the more traditional things like sub-q fluids and flagyl to settle his tummy. But, to do it more naturally and get him adjusted and over this "hump", I personally would try adding more bone, removing the skin (high fat content) and add a spoon of pumpkin in to help firm up his stools.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more Im not entirely certain his stools are primarily diet based, bringing a 9 wk old pup to a brand new environment, I would almost expect some loose stools just from the stress of the move and exposure to the new smells and germs.... its not that you or your existing dog were overly germy, but you do have NEW germs to which this pup has just has his first exposure. As you work for a vet, and the pups 9 wks, Id imagine hes just had a set of shots recently as well? All of this, plus switching his diet....Id worry if he didnt have loose stools. The diet changes/additions above, plus a little time to adjust, should fix him right up tho.
Do watch him for fever tho..pup that young, those symptoms, plus fever... some nasty things come to mind. Contact me offlist if you want, I was a vet tech for ...ever, lol
Sorry if I rambled a bit..alot of angles on that one I had to work out in my head and I just typed as they came to me. :-)
Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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10.1. Salmon Oil
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Is there a guideline on how much salmon oil to give a dog? My dog
weighs 30 lbs. The capsules I have contain 1000 mg. of oil.

Thank you.

Cindi

Messages in this topic (127)
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11a. Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:01 am ((PST))

Hello, Michelle here. I have a question and sorry if this is offtopic. I am wondering what sort of problems you folks faced from family and friends when switching to raw? I am under a verbal barage of questions and really ridiculous ass-umations on the part of some friends and all of my family (except my daughter, lol) I was nearly assaulted over thanksgiving. I was "informed" I am
A) giving my dogs worms and other parasites
B) feeding them e-coli, salmonella and other horrible things
C) asked how I could afford such a diet, its too enpensive and far too much work and whereever was I finding time?
D) informed I had to add very expensive supplements to balance a crazy unbalance raw diet
E) informed that by handling the raw food I was going to subject myself to all the same parasites and disease I was now feeding my dogs (we are all gonna die, basically)
F ) informed that all the barf crap was just that.... a bunch of CRAP and I was told flatout that I was stupid to think otherwise.
G) How could I ever know how much to feed, its not like each bite was balanced?
I was not allowed to defend myself or my choices, I know the answers to all of these issues (most of which are just ignorance based, they simply do not know any better), I have all the information right here, in my head, and no one was interested in hearing it. They simply wished to strike out, but did not allow me to share my knowledge with them. I got up from the table and just left the room. :-(

Now most of these came from my family...I come from a family of dog folks who are quite knowledgeable, but apparently just as brainwashed as perhaps I used to be. My family has deep roots in western medicine and all things traditional.

I am seeking an all natural approach to my dogs diet and health. I am already seeing the dental benefits on my dogs, they chew bones= they have less tarter...I SEE this happening every single day. My dogs love meal time, they are not choking and dieing on these supposed evil bones. I see an improvement (even after a very short time) in skin and coat and general mental health. This can not be a bad thing. This is what they were designed to eat. What bothers me is my trusted family, what should be my primary source of support, has really let me down. I can not share my joy over seeing less tarter on their teeth(really wish I had taken pictures to document the change, its wonderful) with my family...I can not share how happy I am with the differences Im seeing in just general well being of my dogs. Because when I try, I am met with skepticism and down right meanness. This really has surprised me. I know feeding raw is a personal choice, it is not for
everyone. I acknowledge and respect this, but when every peiece of information I can find backs up what I know deep in my heart and soul to be right, I have only one choice and that is to continue to feed my kids what I KNOW is best for them. Im sticking with RAW!
So forgive me fellow listers if I seek emotional support here more than what might be typical of a newbie, I need you folks more now than ever!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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11b. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

Michelle R wrote:

> B) feeding them e-coli, salmonella and other horrible things

Hi, yeah, I've been given the business by a couple friends who are experienced dog
owners. They've being nice enough, and probably figure dh & I need the advice since this
is the first dog we've had as adults.

One friend thinks dogs absolutely need the carbohydrates and veggies. The other friend,
a kibble feeder, passed on what her vet said: that they do see cases of salmonella
poisoning in dogs and raw has its real dangers. Another friend believes in raw, but in
BARF.

It doesn't bother me at all. I listen, and then usually hit the computer to look things up
and try to make the best decision based on what I know and what I've learned.

I do appreciate this list so much, and have filed away a bunch of helpful things in my head.
One of them is, if we ever take the dog into the vet for an illness, to make sure the vet can
see past the raw diet and not miss something important because the vet is quick to blame
it all on raw.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

"mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
> Okay, I am convinced. Rawfeeding is the way to go.
*****
LOL
There is a huge disconnect between your subject line and the
sentence "I am convinced." Seems to me your imagination has run amok
here. You are wasting valuable engergy being scared silly and being
terrified is probably more self-serving than you want to be. When
was the last time you breathed? Please, calm yourself.

FWIW, I blew off raw feeding for like two years because the way it
was presented to me was IMO excessively complicated and had some
pretty iffy logic behind it. But when my picky golden was on day
three of not eating his healthy kibble and out of desperation (not
terror) I bought a package of chicken wings and by gawd he ate them
in an flash (and safely), I knew all my previous thinking had been an
utter waste of time and energy.

I recommend you stop analyzing this and, as they say, just do it.

But these are MY dogs, and I am scared
> to death that the one time it happens, it will be when I put down
> that first chicken quarter.
*****
I think having a great surge of emotion is very rewarding. It feels
good to be so passionate about something, anything. But your terror
is counterproductive. Not only is it getting in the way of your
pets' healthier diet, it is preventing you from thinking straight.
As is often the case with a good cry, get it out of your system and
then move on.

If you feed properly--the right size food for the animal and you keep
your wits about you--you are not at all likely to kill a dog or cat,
not now, not ever. The chances of crappy food killing a pet is much
higher.

> I am sorry to sound like a neurotic mess, but....has anyone else
ever
> felt this way before taking the plunge?
*****
Actually I think you're rather enjoying it! Rechannel this huge dose
of energy into enthusiasm and action! Most people have some degree
of worry when they start. This will be reduced as your experience
grows, as the experience of your pets grows, and as you continue to
read and learn and internalize. You've got training wheels on your
new bike, your got pages and pages of instruction, you've got
hundreds of competent people standing by to provide support: it's
time to get on the bike.

> BTW, would you recommend a breast or a leg quarter as a first meal
> for a largish (10 1/2 lb.) 5 yr. old Pomeranian? Or does it matter?
*****
A half breast is usually what I start visiting dogs on; the ribs are
easy peasy and the half breast size is not likely to produce the "too
much too soon" loose stools. Remove the skin if you'd prefer. I
think a leg quarter is too much food and too much bone too soon.
However, a leg quarter from a Cornish game hen would be lovely.

> And for a Sheltie puppy, about 4 1/2 - 5 months, 18-19 lbs?
*****
Same thing. A pup that age needs at least two meals, anything larger
than a half breast for one of those meals would probably be too
much. I tend to err on the side of less rather than more when I
start a new dog.

I know
> the dogs both like raw beef, I got a lb. of stew meat for Foxy's
> fifth b-day and between the two of them, they ate it all in two days
> (only because I parceled it out as a snack, a bite at a time!)
*****
Actually, that's a good way to introduce new meats--little by little,
bite by bite. Feeding a whole pile of something new is a terrific
way to produce stools you don't have to have to clean up.

I
> know most people start out with chicken, but since I already know
> they both like beef, would it be okay to give some along with bony
> chicken parts during the first week, or should I focus on serving
> larger chunks of a single kind of meaty bone, like a chicken leg
> quarter?
*****
They're your dogs. You can introduce raw however you want. If what
you choose doesn't work out like you had hoped, you back off,
simplify, start over.

IMO rawfeeders with some experience under their belts tend to be more
cavalier about starting since they have a pretty good notion of what
they are doing and what the likely results are. However, a brand
spanking newcomer--especially one who's wound herself into a tizzy--
might do better starting out with the most simple food available.
Which in most cases is chicken.

Good luck!
Breathe!
Smile!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
>
> +++++++Mod note: pls sign your emails +++++++++
>
>
> Okay, I am convinced. Rawfeeding is the way to go.

Yes, raw is the way to go, you are right ;) I was scared, too, before
taking the plunge. One of my dogs is a gulper, terrible gulper, and I
am now feeding her very large pieces of food, for her, she's a 20 pd
pug, it's large enough to slow her down. Just remember, keep the food
big and complicated so they have to eat slowly. I'll give my gulper a
6/7inch goat leg (or bigger) with lots of meat on it or an entire
rabbit. Sometimes half a cornish hen and the other pug eats the rest.
These meals are big enough so that she can put her paw on it and rip
and tear at the meat. It seems to me that she has more problems when
the food is in small pieces that she can inhale easily.

I think that when I was feeding the pugs their correct portions of
food everyday, they were hungry all the time and were always gulping
their dinner. Now, I'm letting them eat more one day and feeding them
less the next day and so on, so that they are satisfied and less
prone to gulp. Hope this helps.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (6)
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13. Loose Stool issues
Posted by: "Sylvia Tetzlaff" stetzlaff@yahoo.com stetzlaff
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:53 am ((PST))

Hello, folks,

I'm relatively new to raw feeding (and this group), and I've learned the hard way about adding a new meat source (too much, too soon). I had gotten the impression from reading posts on the one of the other Yahoo raw groups that all meals needed to include bone, but since I joined this group, I've learned that the diet should be mostly meat (meaty red meat), some bone, and some organ meat.

So I eagerly fed my two Poms some steak yesterday for their meals. Big mistake. I've been cleaning up after my little girl all morning. It hasn't affected her appetite, but my little guy refuses to eat now.

My question is, how much new meat should I add to a tolerated meat source (in my case, chicken, which they are both doing well on), and how soon? Will their stools eventually firm up after a meal of just meaty meat? Or do I follow up a meaty meat meal in the a.m. with a bone-in meal in the p.m.?

My other problem is that both dogs are not very big (one is 10.4 lbs, the other is 11.4), and I have to feed my girl big pieces to keep her from trying to swallow things whole. They both get 5-6 ounces a day, so do I add small pieces of beef or other red meat to their daily chicken pieces, and gradually increase the amount of beef and decrease the amount of chicken?

Thanks,

Sylvia
2 Poms, 1 Manx, and a messy carpet

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