Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, July 5, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11766

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
From: Nathalie Poulin

2a. Re: Healthiest Dog I ever owned...
From: Nathalie Poulin

3a. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
From: g_manders
3b. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
From: embrace3

4a. Re: Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
From: brutus_buckley

5a. Re: GRRRRRR....
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

6a. Re: Trying to educated people about the wonders of raw feeding. *Upd
From: Laura
6b. Re: Trying to educated people about the wonders of raw feeding. *Upd
From: Patrice Quinn

7a. Newbie to the group with a few questions...
From: kaebruney
7b. Re: Newbie to the group with a few questions...
From: seaneboyee
7c. Re: Newbie to the group with a few questions...
From: Sandee Lee
7d. Re: Newbie to the group with a few questions...
From: Linda Edgington

8a. Doggie treat recipies...
From: kaebruney
8b. Re: Doggie treat recipies...
From: seaneboyee
8c. ADMIN/Re: Doggie treat recipies...
From: costrowski75

9a. Veggies... Eggs... Omega3 's... Vitamin E
From: kaebruney
9b. Re: Veggies... Eggs... Omega3 's... Vitamin E
From: bluegracepwd

10. (no subject)
From: Ann Flynn

11. Here fishy fishy
From: mob1043

12a. Lily update: was tiny 8 week old papillon
From: Carrie Kelly
12b. Re: Lily update: was tiny 8 week old papillon
From: Giselle

13a. Re: Which bones are best for teeth clean ups?
From: linoleum5017

14. New puppy won't eat
From: rottinluvr


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

"Felicia" <greenmomma@...> wrote:
My dogs are 2 1/2 and 1 1/2 - are
> they old enough to eat only once a day?
*****
Your dogs are indeed old enough to eat once a day--or less. Feeding
once a day gives them the opportunity to eat larger, more gratifying
and involving meals. I recommend you also mix up your feeding schedule.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Poe (my german shepherd/husky) is 9 months old and I
only feed her once a day.... she seems to be doing
very well so far (about 2 weeks or so on raw).

Nathalie

--- Felicia <greenmomma@gmail.com> wrote:

> I usually feed a couple times a day, but I'm
> wondering if more or less
> often would be optimal. I searched the archives and
> it looks like
> some people also feed twice a day. My dogs are 2
> 1/2 and 1 1/2 - are
> they old enough to eat only once a day?
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> Felicia, Mom to
> Bella & Katie
>
>

____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Healthiest Dog I ever owned...
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

I love hearing this simply because it reaffirms
everything that I already believe to be true; which
can sometimes make one doubtful with the amount of
people who look at you like you're crazy when they
find out you feed your dog raw.
Thank you.

Nathalie

--- K9FindM@aol.com wrote:

> Just a note to pass along - the healthiest dog that
> I have ever owned and
> worked was a border collie/blue heeler mix that I
> worked on my longhorn cattle.
> Although we provided what I thought was a "good"
> diet at our time with him
> - he preferred the dead deer that were hit in front
> of our farm (which was
> year round and many). He had the shiniest coat,
> worked the best and continue
> to work cattle until he was 16 and died at the age
> of 17.
>
> Maria Hillegas
> SARDOM
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's
> free at http://www.aol.com.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. Start today at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
Posted by: "g_manders" gencfg@gmail.com g_manders
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Raw is one of the best things you can do for an epileptic pet. Get
lots of organ meat because the Taurine found it in will help rebuild
what the brain looses during a seizure. I've had 2 personal greyhounds
with epilepsy and several fosters. Please feel free to contact me off
list for any advice/guidance or with questions.

Gen
w/ 6 happy greyhounds
gencfg@gmail.com

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))

In fact, Mary, they are using low carb diets to successfully treat children
who have such severe epilepsy, they were not able to be controlled on drugs!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sandee Lee" <rlee@plix.com>
>
> You heard wrong. Raw is absolutely the best thing you can feed a dog with
> epilepsy. Diet change is one of the first things recommended...well,
after
> getting on the appropriate meds, of course! But generally you will see a
> reduction in seizures, some dogs have even been able to lower the
> dose/discontinue them.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
Posted by: "embrace3" embrace3@yahoo.com embrace3
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi I am relatively new to raw but have some experience with epilepsy
in dogs, and all I can tell you that although we lost our 2.5 year
old GSD to epilepsy (caused by vaccines) when we switched him to raw
he was seizure free for over a month whereas he would normally have
seizures every 2 weeks like clock work. You have to be careful with
the meds because of the awesome nutrition in raw the dog most likely
will require less pheno and thus if you keep him on the same does it
might poison him. Check the levels at least every 2 weeks at the vet
when initially switching him to raw. Also I would greatly
recommend "Canine Epilepsy" An Owner's Guide to Living With and
Without Seizures by Caroline D. Levin, it's just a super great book
on the topic.
Krystian W.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Mary,
>
> You heard wrong. Raw is absolutely the best thing you can feed a
dog with
> epilepsy. Diet change is one of the first things
recommended...well, after
> getting on the appropriate meds, of course! But generally you
will see a
> reduction in seizures, some dogs have even been able to lower the
> dose/discontinue them.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Mary" <dobesrcool@...>
>
>
> .I now have a new rescue boy has epilepsy he's 4 yrs old and has
> been on meds since a pup 3mo's.(Phenobarbital 97.2 mg. @ 5 per day)
When
> we got him we put him on raw right away,his weight was 110lbs and
now
> is 95lbs. Never had a dog with this so we have been doing some
research
> on it.Now we a seeing that the raw diet is very very bad for the
> Epilepsy dog.Does anyone have any suggestions on this.We are going
> crazy with this,please help if you have the time..
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

// Variety is one of the best ways to assure optimal nutrition. I
> recommend never giving up the hunt for red october, I mean meat.//

***LOL Chris. My hubby always thinks after I've bought a lot of meat
that I'm "done." Then if I find something else on sale, he always
wonders why I need to buy it...as if the dogs can survive forever on 1
goat. I only consider myself "done" if all the freezer space is
full..sometimes not even then, as I will often start checking out new
freezers to buy and fill up! I am a meat hoarder...big time!

-Renee W.


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: GRRRRRR....
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/5/2007 7:19:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

Anyone have a dog that growls when there eating a RMB. Hes not
growling at anyone or anything cuz he's the only one in the room(don't
worrie im supervising him, he just cant see me). He just growls
sometimes.


No, but I have a cat that does. :) And also a cat that sings at the top of
her lungs while she eats that good raw stuff. The third cat just pins his ears
back, puts a paw on the meat to keep it still, and never lifts his head until
it's gone--unless I bother him, in which case he will growl clearly at me!

It was so funny today, watching those cats work on ribs (before they ate
their beef liver I fed with it, mind you). Both male cats have learned to put a
paw on a bone and hold it so they can gnaw away. The little girl hasn't
thought of that, just picks it up and tries to chew, while singing and walking
around some. The boys had theirs down to bone and I took that away in 15 min,
but Precious worried at hers for nearly half an hour before it seemed she'd
gotten down about all she was going to of it! Now she's lying on the computer
desk between the monitor and me, singing and purring her paws when I talk to
her, and looking somewhat tired. :)

Lynda

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Trying to educated people about the wonders of raw feeding. *Upd
Posted by: "Laura" laurac2cheshire@yahoo.com laurac2cheshire
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

I don't know if you all remember this topic but I wanted to update you.
I was trying to educate one of my coworkers about how feeding her dog
raw would help with the dogs recent seizure problems. She went to ask
her "ex-husband" about this – he is a vet. He told her about
the "increase" he's seen in Salmonella and E. Coli poisoning in his
patients. Although, he could not definitively make the correlation
between the increase in poisoning with dogs on raw diet – he still told
her that he attributes the increase he has seen with raw diet.
Personally, and I told her this, I think that is reckless medical
practice. THE GOOD NEWS – she recently took her dog on a mini vacation
to the River and her dog had another episode. She remembered what I
said and she gave her dog some raw steak. She says, "She's a totally
different dog!! You were SO right!!" and no episodes since then! I just
love it when things speak for themselves. I just had to share my little
victory with you all. ;-)

Laura
Corona,CA


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Trying to educated people about the wonders of raw feeding. *Upd
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi Laura, We had an experience almost identical to your co-worker's. We fed
our two mini-dachsie girls commercial kibble for 14 years. They were both
given phenobarbitol every day for 10 years for seizures.

Eight months ago, due to escalating health problems we couldn't get a
diagnosis for (after spending over $1000) and adopting a dachsie boy with
his own health issues, we stopped kibble and started a cooked meat mixture.
All three improved in a number of ways--we were finally able to wean the
girls off the pheno.

After some on-line research, I became interested months ago in raw feeding
and asked our vet about it. He discouraged us with the identical claim that
he's seeing a higher ratio of salmonella and E.Coli problems in his patients
due to this "fad." That put us off for several months; however, we finally
decided to do what appealed to our common sense and just a week ago we
switched all of our dogs to raw. Though they had never seen raw food of any
kind in their lives, they didn't even sniff twice before launching into
their chicken thighs like pros. So far they're all doing great and look
forward to their raw meals with as much gusto as they did their cooked ones.
I am SURE that all of the health problems that are still present will be
dissipating away as they FINALLY receive the nutrients they need in the form
they were always intended to get them.

I am convinced that commercial dog food is the underlying cause of the
siezures, the systemic yeast infection, the dental issues and the anal glad
impactions we've had years of experience with and wouldn't be surprised if
the increase in salmonella and E. Coli these vets are seeing may also be the
result of commercial dog foods being fed to dogs whose immune systems are
compromised from long term feeding of that stuff.

Good on ya for this "little" victory for you (which is a BIG victory for
your co-worker and her canine). Have a great weekend! Patrice Quinn

-------Original Message-------

From: Laura
Date: 7/5/2007 5:05:12 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] RE: Trying to educated people about the wonders of raw
feeding. *Update*

I don't know if you all remember this topic but I wanted to update you.
I was trying to educate one of my coworkers about how feeding her dog
raw would help with the dogs recent seizure problems. She went to ask
her "ex-husband" about this – he is a vet. He told her about
the "increase" he's seen in Salmonella and E. Coli poisoning in his
patients. Although, he could not definitively make the correlation
between the increase in poisoning with dogs on raw diet – he still told
her that he attributes the increase he has seen with raw diet.
Personally, and I told her this, I think that is reckless medical
practice. THE GOOD NEWS – she recently took her dog on a mini vacation
to the River and her dog had another episode. She remembered what I
said and she gave her dog some raw steak. She says, "She's a totally
different dog!! You were SO right!!" and no episodes since then! I just
love it when things speak for themselves. I just had to share my little
victory with you all. ;-)

Laura
Corona,CA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Newbie to the group with a few questions...
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

Hey everyone!

I'm new to the groups but not new to feeding raw (although I may not
be doing it right).

I have a 2yr old scottie mix and a 6mo old ratty that are both raw fed.

I have two questions about feeding my boys:

1- We stick to mainly chicken, turkey, beef hearts, liver, etc. Their
fish has been tuna or salmon from a can as they both hate fish.
However, I notice people feeding all sorts of exotics like: lamb, emu,
rabbit, goat, etc.

Are there benefits to the other meats? I don't have easy access to the
and would have to search, but if they're better then I ant to do that
for my dogs.

2 - Organs - which ones are best? I just realized I'm feeding too much
liver which is fine because my dogs hate it!!! So I'm wondering what
about the other organs... do sweetbreads qualify? what about kidneys..
i'm scared to cut them and get a bunch of uric acid (eew!).

3 - speaking of liver, does it matter if it's beef or pork? and are
gizzards livers?


I know it's a lot, but I'm so excited to have so many knowledgeable
folks to turn to.

Thanks everyone!

~kae


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Newbie to the group with a few questions...
Posted by: "seaneboyee" seaneboyee@yahoo.com seaneboyee
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:48 pm ((PDT))

1 - I'm fairly new to raw feeding as well but I've read that variety
is the best but you want to ease into it so you can pinpoint any
change in activity or things like allergies. As they say, you want to
mirror the prey model so things would be things like rabbits, lamb,
and goats. Whatever is convenient for you is what works best for
everyone. Everything is expensive in Hawaii so I just stick to what I
can get at the supermarket.

2 - One of the holistic vets in Hawaii said liver and hearts are the
best. Green tripe is also excellent if you can find it.

3 - I don't believe it matters between beer or pork, once again it's
about variety and convenience. Gizzards are excellent as well.

Best regards,
Sean

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: Newbie to the group with a few questions...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))

Actually, beer and pork are really good together. Slow cooked in a
crockpot....YUM!!!!

Sorry...couldn't resist! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "seaneboyee" <seaneboyee@yahoo.com>

3 - I don't believe it matters between beer or pork, once again it's
about variety and convenience. Gizzards are excellent as well.


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: Newbie to the group with a few questions...
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

With some onion and bbq sauce!! :}

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Actually, beer and pork are really good together. Slow cooked in a
crockpot....YUM!!!!

Sorry...couldn't resist! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "seaneboyee" <seaneboyee@yahoo.com>

3 - I don't believe it matters between beer or pork, once again it's
about variety and convenience. Gizzards are excellent as well.


---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Doggie treat recipies...
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

Does have anyone have any recipes (on know where to find them) for
making doggy treats? I heard of one for drying liver to make treats...
any ideas?

I don't want to ruin all my raw efforts by feeding doggie buiscits as
treats.

Thanks!

Kae

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Doggie treat recipies...
Posted by: "seaneboyee" seaneboyee@yahoo.com seaneboyee
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:48 pm ((PDT))

I asked the same question about a week ago and came across a working
recipe for dehydrated liver treats. You basically get some liver from
the supermarket and cut it as thin as possible, 1/4 of an inch is
preferable and then bake it in your toaster oven or oven at the lowest
heat possible, about 200 degrees. I'm actually looking into
purchasing a food dehydrator just for making these treats, you can
also use any other type of meat as well.

Best regards,
Sean

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> Does have anyone have any recipes (on know where to find them) for
> making doggy treats? I heard of one for drying liver to make treats...
> any ideas?
>
> I don't want to ruin all my raw efforts by feeding doggie buiscits as
> treats.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kae
>


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. ADMIN/Re: Doggie treat recipies...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT))

Please take all treat "how to" questions and answers to
RawChat. "Whats" and "whys" and even "whens" are safe here. Further
recipe postings will be dispatched posthaste.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Veggies... Eggs... Omega3 's... Vitamin E
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Some raw feeders are totally purists relying only on the balance of
meats, organs and bone to sustain their pet.

Yet again some supplement their dog's meals with veggies, yogurt,
Vitamin E caps, etc.

I have yet to add supplements to our raw feeding but am considering
the benefits of doing so.

For those who add supplements, which do you add and why?

Anyone add brewer's yeast or garlic for insects?

Thanks,

Kae

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Veggies... Eggs... Omega3 's... Vitamin E
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:46 pm ((PDT))

Ok Kay,

there's a darn lot of money to be made from people trying to tell you
that supplements will make you a better dog owner, because they are
good for your dog.

And that's just crap.

A carnivore does not need veggies or yoghurt, and I would give little
credit to vit e caps adding any value whatsoever.

And your carnivore certainly does not need brewer's yeast nor garlic.

cheers,

Jane


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. (no subject)
Posted by: "Ann Flynn" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:50 pm ((PDT))

Hello All,

I am new to raw feeding and have a question about an older arthritic dog.
Unfortunately I knew no better and since 6 months old she has been fed
canned and kibbled (what I now know should not even be called food), with a
recreational bone only about once every few weeks. She is a 13 year lab x
and very stiff and sore, particularly in the leg she had a cruciate ligament
replaced in about 4 years ago.

I have had her to the vet several times this year regarding the general
stiffness and he said she also has spondylitis which is inflammation of the
spine. I was not asked at all about her diet and she was prescribed a pain
killer which initially gave her relief but led to internal bleeding and
diahorrea. She was given more medication to help with those problems. Then
she was changed to another pain killer which does give her relief but I have
been very concerned about the long term side effects of being on a daily
medication.

We have just got a new pup too, and I was researching about puppy feeding on
the internet when I came across the idea of raw feeding, and realized I have
been duped all these years thinking that if a vet recommends pet food it
must be good for my dog! My poor dog has paid the price in ill health for
years. She had to have a tumor removed a year ago too.

I have had her on a completely raw meaty bone diet for a week now. There has
been a remarkable improvement already in her mouth which I had noticed was
smelling bad, when I had a closer look her teeth were discolored and gums
looked inflamed. After one week, her breath is sweet and her teeth are much
whiter and gums look normal. (WOW!!)

Yesterday I decided to stop her medication so I can see more fully what
happens on the raw diet. I have now read the raw meaty bone diet can be
considered as both food and medicine for dogs and that prescription
medication is just placing more strain on her system.

I do believe she is generally happier, and her mouth is a great result
already, but I haven't noticed any freeing up of her stiffness as yet. Early
days I know, and maybe I am just too impatient to see her get relief with
this diet.

I have a few questions:

Is it true that cruciate ligament rupture is related to junk pet food diet?
Has anyone feeding raw had this problem with their dog/dogs?

Would anyone with experience changing to raw with an old dog and having
success with stiffness and arthritis relief in their pet, please share with
me how long it took for the dog to get relief?

I do realize the raw diet is not a miracle cure and that maybe she is just
too ill from years of junk food to get much better now. Thank goodness our
new pup will never suffer the same fate. At 10 weeks he is tucking into his
meaty bones with delight, as is my old dog. Great to see their pleasure.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. Here fishy fishy
Posted by: "mob1043" ynotbeastar@marykay.com mob1043
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:37 pm ((PDT))

I understand about non farmed fish, but is it OK to feed salt and/or
fresh water fish? I read the threads and did I miss that questions?
If I did, I apologize for being blind.

Thanks,
Michele

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Lily update: was tiny 8 week old papillon
Posted by: "Carrie Kelly" winencandy@yahoo.ca winencandy
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:41 pm ((PDT))

Well, Lily's been home for almost a week. She's a little joy. I've been giving her chicken breasts. The first couple of meals I cut it up for her. Lately I've been slicing into the breast and then giving it to her. She tears at it like a tiny wolf. She's not eating very much bone yet. Today was her first real day with bone and she scared me - she gagged on a chicken rib, but she got it down. The next meal, I cut the breast cartilage into tiny, tiny pieces. Maybe I'll have to smash it for her.
I never thought I'd be writing about my dog's poop in an email, but never say never. It started out runny, yellow and mucousy, it has changed to brown, runny and slightly mucousy. Nothing solid. I'm not sure if it's a combination of new food, no bone, or too much food. (2 oz of food a day is a very tiny amount to try to measure.) So I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that this is normal and it will eventually turn into something that I can pick up off the lawn, instead of just wiping it into the grass.
Enough of that. Oliver the cat isn't sure what to think of her, and Jazz (the 13 yr old lab X) won't even look at her. I think Jazz is hoping that if she doesn't acknowledge her, Lily will go away.
Carrie K


WinenCandy

---------------------------------
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Lily update: was tiny 8 week old papillon
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carrie!
Its great to hear an update on your new pup!
If you think she'll have a hard time with chicken bones, why not try
game hens first? They're still chicken, just younger ones, with softer
bones. The more easily crunched bones should let you keep a more hands
off approach, so that she can develop her own eating style. If she
doesn't eat bones, or is just eating the softer gristle for awhile,
that OK.
The poops you are seeing are reflective of the boneless chicken you
are feeding. NPs, the poops will change when the protein and bone
content you feed changes. Usually poops harden with more bone, are
soft, maybe even runny with less, or no bone. Not all meals have to
have bone. Use 80% meatymeat, 10% bone and 10% organ as a general
guideline.
Don't try to measure or weigh her meals. Just cut the game hens in
half or the chicken in quarters and let her have at it! After about
15-20 minutes she should stop eating, take it up, and put in the
fridge for the next meal. As little as she is, you could offer her as
many as 4 meals a day, but 3 fer sure as a minimum. As she learns to
work her jaws/body and chunk her mouthfuls to the right size to
swallow comfortably, she will be able to manage more at a feeding
without tiring out before she's full.
Get used to looking at her waist and belly tuck up and feeling her
ribs, backbone and hip bones, this will give you a good idea of how
she should feel and look at an optimum weight for her. Too much
padding over the ribs? Let her eat less of her meal before putting it
up. A little ribby? Let her eat more, or feed an additional meal.
Jazz may just think that she's a very strange type of cat! Having a
big dog as a house mate, Oliver may think she's a weird kind of cat, too!
TC
Giselle


> Well, Lily's been home for almost a week. She's a little joy. I've
been giving her chicken breasts. The first couple of meals I cut it
up for her. Lately I've been slicing into the breast and then giving
it to her. She tears at it like a tiny wolf. She's not eating very
much bone yet. Today was her first real day with bone and she scared
me - she gagged on a chicken rib, but she got it down. The next meal,
I cut the breast cartilage into tiny, tiny pieces. Maybe I'll have to
smash it for her.

> I never thought I'd be writing about my dog's poop in an email,
but never say never. It started out runny, yellow and mucousy, it has
changed to brown, runny and slightly mucousy. Nothing solid. I'm not
sure if it's a combination of new food, no bone, or too much food. (2
oz of food a day is a very tiny amount to try to measure.) So I guess
I'm just looking for reassurance that this is normal and it will
eventually turn into something that I can pick up off the lawn,
instead of just wiping it into the grass.
> Enough of that. Oliver the cat isn't sure what to think of her,
and Jazz (the 13 yr old lab X) won't even look at her. I think Jazz
is hoping that if she doesn't acknowledge her, Lily will go away.
> Carrie K


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Which bones are best for teeth clean ups?
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
> I feed the chicken feet partially frozen
>
> Mary in PA


Mary, I am also in PA, and am looking to find a good butcher. Where
might you be? Southwestern PA is my neck o'.

Lynne


Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. New puppy won't eat
Posted by: "rottinluvr" rottinluv@cox.net rottinluvr
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I brought home my new puppy today. A 7 week old Rottweiler. I figured
since I managed to switch a cat over to raw, a new puppy would be a
breeze. Well, that hasn't been the case. He really has no interest in
the chicken. I've offered him a chicken quarter, and he barely looked
at it. I sliced into the meat, and he licked it. I finally cut it into
really tiny pieces, and he reluctantly ate a few, maybe a tablespoon
worth.

I know that puppies are supposed to eat frequently, so I'm a little
concerned. He is eating, drinking, peeing, and pooping just fine. He
does not seem depressed in any way, he just does not want to eat the
chicken.

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated!

Leanne & Casino

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11765

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Treats and Chicken bones
From: territurner3
1b. Re: Treats and Chicken bones
From: Nathalie Poulin
1c. Re: Treats and Chicken bones
From: Sandee Lee

2. Amount to feed 4wk puppies?
From: okbabylady

3a. Shedding
From: Jen
3b. Re: Shedding
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Shedding
From: Jen

4a. Re: question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
From: Nathalie Poulin
4b. Re: question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
From: Evie

5a. Anyone in Oregon
From: monell2000
5b. Re: Anyone in Oregon
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. GRRRRRR....
From: Val Kilmer
6b. Re: GRRRRRR....
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
From: Eve Rosenzweig
8b. Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
8c. Re: Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
From: costrowski75

9a. How many times a day do you feed?
From: Felicia
9b. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
From: Jacqueline Miller
9c. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
From: Caren OConnor

10a. Thanks on Fish question/ Organ Question now....
From: K9FindM@aol.com
10b. Re: Thanks on Fish question/ Organ Question now....
From: Sandee Lee

11. Healthiest Dog I ever owned...
From: K9FindM@aol.com

12a. Epilepsy & raw feeding
From: Mary
12b. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
From: Sandee Lee


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Treats and Chicken bones
Posted by: "territurner3" turk739@hotmail.com territurner3
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

Hey there,
I'm very new to the raw diet....my family has always had dogs but
they were fed k*&&%# (the "k" word). So I am constantly wondering if
I'm feeding the right stuff, giving enough variety and pretty much
overplanning every meal for everyday, haha.

But what I wanted to know is what do you guys give your dogs/cats for
treats. My Dane is only 3 1/2 months old so we are doing training
with her and would like to reward her when she does well.
Should the treats also be raw or could you use dried meat?

Also, I went to a vet were I live and she has me very worried about
chicken bones and I guess just bone pieces in general. She said they
can form a "rock" in the dogs belly and ferment and then cause all
sorts of problems.
Has anyone ever had, or know of someone who's had problems with
bones? Should I be worried at all about chicken/pork/beef bones?
Thanks,
Terri

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Treats and Chicken bones
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:17 pm ((PDT))

The only reason why any bone would form a "rock" in a dog's stomach is if it is cooked, and since you said you're feeding your dog raw, then I assume you aren't feeding cooked bones.
Vets are pros at scare tactics, and from what I've learned reading through the posts here, most have next to ZERO nutritional training. I'd be more worried about the vet that recommends kibble!
If the 9000+ people on this list have had troubles with bones, I think that most of us would probably stop feeding raw, but it really is the best thing you can do for your dog.
My dog eats chicken all the time, she crunches through the bones, shears the meat and loves every second of it. She eats whole chickens, goat necks, beef heart, beef liver, all sorts of pork chunks filled with edible bones and I've never had a problem with her forming "rocks" in her stomach.
Just make sure you're feeding her things that are bigger than her head (roughly) because if she's a scarfer you might have problems with her choking.
Trust your instincts! Don't give in to vet scare tactics!
Use this raw feeding group to your advantage!

Nathalie

territurner3 <turk739@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hey there,
I'm very new to the raw diet....my family has always had dogs but
they were fed k*&&%# (the "k" word). So I am constantly wondering if
I'm feeding the right stuff, giving enough variety and pretty much
overplanning every meal for everyday, haha.

But what I wanted to know is what do you guys give your dogs/cats for
treats. My Dane is only 3 1/2 months old so we are doing training
with her and would like to reward her when she does well.
Should the treats also be raw or could you use dried meat?

Also, I went to a vet were I live and she has me very worried about
chicken bones and I guess just bone pieces in general. She said they
can form a "rock" in the dogs belly and ferment and then cause all
sorts of problems.
Has anyone ever had, or know of someone who's had problems with
bones? Should I be worried at all about chicken/pork/beef bones?
Thanks,
Terri


---------------------------------
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Treats and Chicken bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi Terri,

The only reports I have heard about bones turning into "rocks" and causing
impactions were dogs being fed cooked ground chicken with bone! Stick to
the prey model of lots of meat and little bone and you will do fine. A Dane
can eat just about anything you hand out!! :))

Beef bones are harder and may be more difficult to digest, but for the most
part beef bones are not consumable and the large beef bones break and wear
teeth. Other than whole oxtail, I feed beef for the meat, not the bone.
But chicken, turkey, goat, lamb, pork, etc. should be easily consumable.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "territurner3" <turk739@hotmail.com>

Also, I went to a vet were I live and she has me very worried about
chicken bones and I guess just bone pieces in general. She said they
can form a "rock" in the dogs belly and ferment and then cause all
sorts of problems.
Has anyone ever had, or know of someone who's had problems with
bones? Should I be worried at all about chicken/pork/beef bones?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. Amount to feed 4wk puppies?
Posted by: "okbabylady" camie@babylady.com okbabylady
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

I have 7 4wk lab puppies and mom is not letting them nurse at all...
we started them on raw last week, giving them as a group about 2lbs of
bone in chicken (quarters, thighs or breasts) once a day. They easily
get that down to the bone. I'm wondering if I should increase them to
more meals a day and how much should they get total? and should I make
any attempt to separate them so they each get a certain amount? They
eat like I would expect a pack to eat and it certainly seems like
everyone is getting their portion, the smallest pup is oddly enough
the most aggressive eater lol (and here I was worried about her)

btw anyone interested in a raw fed, non-vaxed lab mix puppy? :D I'm
willing to travel great distances to make sure they get into good homes.

Thanks!
Camie

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Shedding
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:14 pm ((PDT))

My dogs have had dull coats for quite some time now. I waited a while
to see if things would improve, then several weeks ago started them on
fish oil capsules. I thought by now they would have blown their
winter coats, but they are still shedding a ton and their coats are
pretty dull so I'm suspicious that's not the problem. Could you guys
take a look at what I'm feeding and let me know if you think I'm
missing anything, or if it's likely still just weather-related? Thanks.

I generally feed the following each week:

1 day - beef heart or other boneless cut of beef
1 day - whole lamb neck
1 day - rabbit
1 day - mackerel
2-3 days - chk quarters with beef liver added 1 day and most weeks
beef kidney added another day
2 fish oil caplets per day
An occasional egg or two

Occasionally I sub in other things or I vary how much of any
particular thing I'm feeding, but that's the gist. The meats I feed
are all organic, they're not all completely pasture-raised, but
they're not feedlot beef, etc. so they should have a decent amount of
omegas.

Any input is appreciated, thanks.
Jen

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Shedding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:03 pm ((PDT))

"Jen" <jboydmorin@...> wrote:
>
> My dogs have had dull coats for quite some time now.
*****
Only when raw fed, or previously? How long have you been feeding
raw? How long before you added FBO (I mean, "a while" is open to
interpretation).


I thought by now they would have blown their
> winter coats, but they are still shedding a ton and their coats are
> pretty dull so I'm suspicious that's not the problem.
*****
My Lab and foofoo golden are still blowing coat; the Lab's been fed
raw for seven years; the golden going on four. Both of them, when
the deluge ends, will have lovely coats. Eventually. Maybe your
switch to raw and the change of seasons coincided to produce one heck
of a coat change.


> I generally feed the following each week:
>
> 1 day - beef heart or other boneless cut of beef
> 1 day - whole lamb neck
> 1 day - rabbit
> 1 day - mackerel
> 2-3 days - chk quarters with beef liver added 1 day and most weeks
> beef kidney added another day
> 2 fish oil caplets per day
> An occasional egg or two
*****
It strikes me that you are not feeding much fat--one day of lamb
neck, one day of mackerel (can? whole fish?). Beef heart, rabbit,
liver and kidney are not notably fatty and unless the beef meat you
feed is fattier than the usual 1/4" trim, you might not be providing
fat there (and pastured beef is notably lean). Not sure how much fat
the chicken quarters carry but they are likely to offer a lot of
omega 6, which may part of the problem (if there is in fact a
problem) as you noted.

I recommend you consider upping the FBO intake, increasing dietary
fat and adding pork to the menu. It's difficult for me to believe
that both dogs would have thyroid issues, but diet changes make no
never mind, you might consider a full thyroid panel on both dogs.

Any lifestyle changes that might be affecting your dogs?
Chris O


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Shedding
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Chris, for the input. Will do my best to answer your questions...

> Only when raw fed, or previously? How long have you been feeding
> raw? How long before you added FBO (I mean, "a while" is open to
> interpretation).

I've fed raw for several years. I noticed changes around several
months ago I would say that did seem to coincide with some changes in
the way I feed raw though. One of the changes was to switch from a
large amt of chicken backs to a more varied diet - chk backs are
pretty fatty so this makes sense in light of your suggestion below.

> It strikes me that you are not feeding much fat--one day of lamb
> neck, one day of mackerel (can? whole fish?). Beef heart, rabbit,
> liver and kidney are not notably fatty and unless the beef meat you
> feed is fattier than the usual 1/4" trim, you might not be providing
> fat there (and pastured beef is notably lean). Not sure how much fat
> the chicken quarters carry but they are likely to offer a lot of
> omega 6, which may part of the problem (if there is in fact a
> problem) as you noted.
>
When I feed mackerel I am feeding whole fresh fish. I think the cut
of beef I get and the beef hearts are pretty fatty (these are whole
beef hearts that I just cut in half, one for each dog) but they
certainly don't have the layer of fat that the lamb or pork cuts do.

> I recommend you consider upping the FBO intake, increasing dietary
> fat and adding pork to the menu. It's difficult for me to believe
> that both dogs would have thyroid issues, but diet changes make no
> never mind, you might consider a full thyroid panel on both dogs.
>
> Any lifestyle changes that might be affecting your dogs?

No to lifestyle changes. Well, the only thing that has changed is an
increase in our activity level as we're hiking much more with the
season change. I did mean to say though that I upped their food as
well and they are both at ideal weights. I don't think there are
thyroid issues at play here. Any other suggestions on increasing fat
to the diet? I don't feed pork b/c it's virtually impossible to get
any that is all natural that I can also afford although occasionally I
find it and buy what they have.

I could feed the lamb necks more often if that would help - I get a
good price on them, they take a good bit of time for the dogs to eat
and they seem to have the perfect bone:meat ratio in terms of my dogs
stool. Can't argue with any of that. :>)

Thanks,
Jen


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

What exactly are you feeding them? Maybe when you say you're feeding them raw you aren't giving enough bones?
Is it actually the runs? Or just loose stool? Most dogs go through an adjustment period when starting on raw, (sometimes it takes as long as 2 weeks) but it's worth it for us humans to just wait it out before thinking about going back to kibble.
I think one of the worst things you could do is feed kibble AND raw! Especially if they don't even like the kibble!
Stop smashing up their bones, and stop hand-feeding. Let them go to town on the meat and you'll see, they'll get it.
Also, the reason why we have this group is for resource purposes! Tell us what your dog is eating (when eating raw) and try and figure out why he has the runs and if anyone else has the same problem or has overcome the same problem they can help you out!

Nathalie

reesecup35 <reesecup35@yahoo.com> wrote:
all but my long hair dog he
doesn't have very big teeth and I needed to help him. I have been
giving them alittle raw with the k***** they don't really want the
k***** but they are picky with the chicken and when I feed other meat
other than Chicken they get pickier and they also get the runs even
when I gradually introduce the new meat to them,so I had decided to
just feed K***** from now on


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi, With regards to the Robin;
My two have been killing birds long before I introduced them to raw
feeding. I certainly don't beleve the two are linked.
Evie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Anyone in Oregon
Posted by: "monell2000" monell2000@yahoo.com monell2000
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:38 pm ((PDT))

Does anone live in oregon that orders their meat? I am looking for
somewhere to order rabbit, goat, anything like that. I know they need
the different meats. All I can find is chicken. pork, beef, turkey,
and some lamb. I called a couple private butchers, but they would not
sell me even the organs that they throw away. Said that they can't. I
can get the beef liver, and the chicken liver, the sweetbreads,
kidney, heart at walmart. and I ordered green tripe.
Anyway just thought maybe someone else here in oregon had some ideas

Monell

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Anyone in Oregon
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi Monell,

Check out this group if you haven't already:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/wazzuor_barf/

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "monell2000" <monell2000@...> wrote:
>
> Does anone live in oregon that orders their meat?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. GRRRRRR....
Posted by: "Val Kilmer" DPM333@aol.com dferris23
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

Anyone have a dog that growls when there eating a RMB. Hes not
growling at anyone or anything cuz he's the only one in the room(don't
worrie im supervising him, he just cant see me). He just growls
sometimes. Im thinking he's enjoying it, & it's his way of
saying "MMMMMMM Good!" When we (kids,me,friends) do go up to him &
pet him he dosn't growl. But sometimes he does all by himself. Hes a
16 week old Bull Terrier. Ben on RAW since week 6 & aint turning
back! Thanks Derek @ Chicago!

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: GRRRRRR....
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:29 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like he's just really enjoying himself! As long as it isn't directed at anyone I wouldn't worry about it.

I have a parrot that growls when he gets a particularly yummy treat, and had a dobie and shepherd that growled when playing tug-of-war. If your bull terrier is enjoying his meal as uch as my dogs enjoyed a good game of tug, you've got one happy pup there!

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

Maria,

Fish is fed mainly for the meat...it's a great source of protein. Fish is
far more species appropriate than poultry!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <K9FindM@aol.com>

> Hi - I am new to the group and see that fish is on the menu for many raw
> feeders. I feed raw, but have only on occasion fed fish. To me, it
didn't seem
> like a " as natural" food for dogs (as opposed to poultry or rabbit),
> although I am sure it can be scavenged in the wild. Do people feed fish
mainly for
> the meat or for the omega oils?

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
Posted by: "Eve Rosenzweig" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

I apologize for this lengthy email, but I have been doing a lot of research on raw and although I'm convinced this is the way to go for my pekingese, it's raised a bunch of questions. Many sources suggest a "figuring it out as you go" mentality, which makes sense but is a little overwhelming. As my peke is still eating grains along with raw ground beef, yogurt and such, I am hoping to get some final facts before making the switch. Brace yourselves...here goes...

--Is there anything I should look for when buying a raw meaty bone? Animal
part? Animal type? My pekingese is 17lbs and just want
to be sure I am buying the right type and size bones.
Is he supposed to eat/actually crunch on the actual
bone along with the meat? A couple of sources mentioned chicken necks and wings but I thought these are too small and could be a choking hazard. My dog is a big gulper as well--so I'm scared of this part of the diet.

--What about fish? Are there certain types of fish I should stay away from? Mercury concerns? And give him the whole fish?? Scales and all? And what percentage should his diet consist of fish vs. meat/chicken?

--Can I feed him turkey?

--I live in NYC and don't have access to a whole slew of animal choices, especially at a discount. Realistically I would probably feed different cuts of beef, chicken, turkey, lamb, fish, and maybe a few others I can get my hands on. And a small variety of organs, like heart, liver. Is this enough variety? What other organs should I give him?

--I also fast my peke 1 day a week. On this
(organs, fresh meat, bones) diet, how often should he
fast? I read that their systems need to rest from time
to time.

--Should I feed him once or twice a day? And if once a day, in the morning or the evening?

--Should I combine organs with meat, or meat with bones for each of his meals? Or should I stick with just one of the three sources (organ, meat, bone) per meal? And is the meaty bone considered one full meal?

--I read that I should feed him about 2-3% of his body weight, which equals about 3.5 ounces per meal.????? Is it easiest to get a scale?

--Am I cutting up the slab of meat or what have you? Or am I just giving it to him as is and he chews it apart? If he is a gulper I'm afraid he might try to consume it all at once and choke.

I know everyone must have their own method, but any personal suggestions would be a great starting point for me.I just want to be sure I am doing the right things. On another note, I am really glad I found this group.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated,
Eve, NYC



---------------------------------
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Eve,

I am brand new to raw feeding myself and on day 5 with my dogs, but I do have
one suggestion about finding meat options. I am also in a large city and all
you have to do is find some markets that cater to different ethnic groups. I
lucked out and found a butcher that catered to many different ethnicity's and
the prices were better than the supermarket.

I am sure in NYC, you can find something similar. Think of area where there
is a mixture of ethnic groups living together and you will find a wide variety
of meats.

Good luck.

Regards,
Carla


**************************************
See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Questions about switching to raw diet--new to group
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:19 pm ((PDT))

Eve Rosenzweig <loulou_bean@...> wrote:
> --Is there anything I should look for when buying a raw meaty bone?
*****
I recommend you not focus on the concept of "raw meaty bones" but
rather look for body parts, some of which will be very meaty bones,
some of which will be meat, some of which will be organs. "Raw meaty
bones" gives one the impression that all are created equal and they
most certainly are not. Most raw meaty bones are more bone than
meat, and a good raw diet should be more meat than bone.

What you want to look for is meat, either wrapped succulently around
an edible or somewhat edible bone or by itself in all its meaty glory.


Animal
> part?
*****
This is an excellent perspective! Yes, animal parts. Necks,
shoulders, briskets, ribs, shanks, legs, loins, groins, hocks, hams,
tails, entrails. Not to mention wings, thighs, backs, breasts, half
birds, whole birds. Not to mention steaks, roasts, trim.


Animal type?
*****
Walks, flies, swims--it's yours to feed. Ideal perhaps are ruminants
(cow, goat, lamb, deer) but certainly pigs and poultry are valuable.


> Is he supposed to eat/actually crunch on the actual
> bone along with the meat?
*****
Yes, he must crunch and eat bones for the nutrition, for the
exercise, for the dental hygiene, for the fun. Edible bone is a
small but essential part of a good raw diet.


A couple of sources mentioned chicken necks and wings but I thought
these are too small and could be a choking hazard. My dog is a big
gulper as well--so I'm scared of this part of the diet.
*****
The way one stymies a gulper is to feed big food. Instead of wings
or necks, consider wing/breast combos, or leg quarters, or other
sections of chicken cut willy nilly from the whole bird. Go even
bigger than that--lamb neck, pork shoulder roast.


> --What about fish? Are there certain types of fish I should stay
away from? Mercury concerns? And give him the whole fish?? Scales and
all? And what percentage should his diet consist of fish vs.
meat/chicken?
*****
Yes, whole means scales and all, although you can also feed filets if
you wish. Lots of fishy options. Here are a couple fishy websites
that may help you. You want more, I got more.
http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html
http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp


> --Can I feed him turkey?
*****
My goodness, yes! A good source of high quality protein, as unlike
chicken as goat is lamb.


> --I live in NYC and don't have access to a whole slew of animal
choices, especially at a discount. Realistically I would probably
feed different cuts of beef, chicken, turkey, lamb, fish, and maybe a
few others I can get my hands on.
*****
Others from NYC can advise you more appropriately than I about
resources, but I urge you to not to set your sights too low. You
haven't begun to look, you cannot imagine what delights you'll find.


And a small variety of organs, like heart, liver. Is this enough
variety?
*****
Variety is one of the best ways to assure optimal nutrition. I
recommend never giving up the hunt for red october, I mean meat.


What other organs should I give him?
*****
Heart is fed as muscle meat, as are gizzards and tongue. You should,
long term, shoot for 3%-5% of the diet as liver; another 5% of the
menu can be kidney, spleen, reproductive organs, glands. Or not.
Again, variety is how you hit all the high notes, the low notes and
the midrange between. Not all the time, just when you can. Don't
stop looking.


> --I also fast my peke 1 day a week. On this
> (organs, fresh meat, bones) diet, how often should he
> fast? I read that their systems need to rest from time
> to time.
*****
I don't believe their systems need time to rest. I also don't
believe they need to eat regularly by the clock; I let meal size
determine how often my dogs eat. If your menu offers no volume
reason to skip a meal, then I don't see the point...but certainly,
skip one once a week if you want.


--Should I feed him once or twice a day? And if once a day, in the
morning or the evening?
*****
I think you should feed him big, engrossing, fulfilling meals and
then skip meals til it's time for more big, engrossing fulfilling
meals, but if you're shy of that, then go for as big a meal as you
can offer on a daily basis. Which right off jettisons the notion of
twice a day.

Your feeding schedule can be what you want it to be...the nice thing
is you can change it any old time you want, and then change it again
if you need to, and again. Unless there's reason not to, I'd
recommend once a day to start.


> --Should I combine organs with meat, or meat with bones for each of
his meals? Or should I stick with just one of the three sources
(organ, meat, bone) per meal? And is the meaty bone considered one
full meal?
*****
You are trying to apply order where none is required! Feed meats
separate, mixed together, with added bone, boneless--it is all okay
and none of it is wrong if it works for you and your dog. You do not
have to make each meal a vision of balanced perfection, the meals you
can feed can be lopsided and upside down and backwards if that's what
comes out of the freezer.

If the meaty bone isn't so meaty (most are not so meaty), you might
want to add meat to the meal. Or you can feed the next meal as a
meaty extravaganza with no bone in sight. A good raw diet is not
determined meal by meal, nor day by day, nor even week by week. Like
Old Man River, it just keeps rolling along. Hmm, sorta like life.


> --I read that I should feed him about 2-3% of his body weight,
which equals about 3.5 ounces per meal.????? Is it easiest to get a
scale?
*****
If you are that type of person, yes. However, a. small dogs often
need as much as 5% a day, and b. your best guideline is how your dog
looks and acts on what you feed. If you need a scale to get going,
get one. My guess is though, as you learn the ropes, you'll find
less and less need for a scale.


> --Am I cutting up the slab of meat or what have you?
*****
You can do this.


Or am I just giving it to him as is and he chews it apart?
*****
But this would probably be more fun for him and a better workout.


If he is a gulper I'm afraid he might try to consume it all at once
and choke.
*****
And you minimize this possbility by feeding Big Food. Feed a big
hunk of something, collect it up when you think he's had enough; feed
the remainder the next meal and if the remnants are scary small,
chop 'em up fine. Don't just go for bigger. Go for REALLY BIG and
make him work for his meal.


On another note, I am really glad I found this group.
*****
And we're glad to have you.

Check out
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net

And consider joining Yahoogroups to avail yourself of the list
archives.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. How many times a day do you feed?
Posted by: "Felicia" greenmomma@gmail.com chitown_ninersgirl
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

I usually feed a couple times a day, but I'm wondering if more or less
often would be optimal. I searched the archives and it looks like
some people also feed twice a day. My dogs are 2 1/2 and 1 1/2 - are
they old enough to eat only once a day?

Thanks for your input!

Felicia, Mom to
Bella & Katie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
Posted by: "Jacqueline Miller" beaulincolnsmine@yahoo.com beaulincolnsmine
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:56 pm ((PDT))

I feed twice a day. I have two shepherds; a standard
poodle and a lhasa apso. My females don't like to eat
all the time so I feel they do better with the two
meals. Shepherds have problems with bloat and even
though they are on a raw diet where bloat usually
isn't a problem having the two meals doesn't overload
their sometimes sensitive digestive systems.
Jackie

--- Felicia <greenmomma@gmail.com> wrote:

> I usually feed a couple times a day, but I'm
> wondering if more or less
> often would be optimal. I searched the archives and
> it looks like
> some people also feed twice a day. My dogs are 2
> 1/2 and 1 1/2 - are
> they old enough to eat only once a day?
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> Felicia, Mom to
> Bella & Katie
>
>


____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: How many times a day do you feed?
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:09 pm ((PDT))

Felicia -
Sometimes I feed 2X/daily and sometimes once. I vary so as to keep them always thinkin'. I also feed at different times of the day, depending upon what was fed the day prior.
The fish in Koi pond are on more of a schedule than my four-legged furry friends:)
But, I will say that I make a point to give liver and a raw egg weekly.
I don't think it's necessary to have a schedule set in stone. At least not for my guys.
Good luck with your critters:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers




---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Thanks on Fish question/ Organ Question now....
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))

I feed my dogs organs (mainly livers) only a few times per week. I had
heard that they contain a ton of vitamin A and you do not want to overfeed that
since it can build up in the body and be harmful. Can someone give me more
info on organ feeding and Vitamin A?

Thanks,

Maria Hillegas
SARDOM

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Thanks on Fish question/ Organ Question now....
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:30 pm ((PDT))

Maria,

Stick with approximately 5% of the overall diet and you'll be fine! 10%
organs, half of that amount should be liver.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <K9FindM@aol.com>


> I feed my dogs organs (mainly livers) only a few times per week. I had
> heard that they contain a ton of vitamin A and you do not want to
overfeed that
> since it can build up in the body and be harmful. Can someone give me
more
> info on organ feeding and Vitamin A?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. Healthiest Dog I ever owned...
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:29 pm ((PDT))

Just a note to pass along - the healthiest dog that I have ever owned and
worked was a border collie/blue heeler mix that I worked on my longhorn cattle.
Although we provided what I thought was a "good" diet at our time with him
- he preferred the dead deer that were hit in front of our farm (which was
year round and many). He had the shiniest coat, worked the best and continue
to work cattle until he was 16 and died at the age of 17.

Maria Hillegas
SARDOM

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Epilepsy & raw feeding
Posted by: "Mary" dobesrcool@cox.net dobesrcool
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:10 pm ((PDT))

I have been feeding raw for 6 yrs now just winging it on my own trying
my best.After reading the post for the last few days I have learned
alot.I now have a new rescue boy has epilepsy he's 4 yrs old and has
been on meds since a pup 3mo's.(Phenobarbital 97.2 mg. @ 5 per day)When
we got him we put him on raw right away,his weight was 110lbs and now
is 95lbs. Never had a dog with this so we have been doing some research
on it.Now we a seeing that the raw diet is very very bad for the
Epilepsy dog.Does anyone have any suggestions on this.We are going
crazy with this,please help if you have the time..

Mary
dobesrcool@cox.net

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Epilepsy & raw feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

Mary,

You heard wrong. Raw is absolutely the best thing you can feed a dog with
epilepsy. Diet change is one of the first things recommended...well, after
getting on the appropriate meds, of course! But generally you will see a
reduction in seizures, some dogs have even been able to lower the
dose/discontinue them.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mary" <dobesrcool@cox.net>


.I now have a new rescue boy has epilepsy he's 4 yrs old and has
been on meds since a pup 3mo's.(Phenobarbital 97.2 mg. @ 5 per day)When
we got him we put him on raw right away,his weight was 110lbs and now
is 95lbs. Never had a dog with this so we have been doing some research
on it.Now we a seeing that the raw diet is very very bad for the
Epilepsy dog.Does anyone have any suggestions on this.We are going
crazy with this,please help if you have the time..


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11764

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. menus for pups, pregnant bitches, and everyone else
From: Rebecca Little
1b. Re: menus for pups, pregnant bitches, and everyone else
From: bluegracepwd

2a. Re: Mix Meat
From: heidilambeth
2b. Re: Mix Meat
From: bluegracepwd
2c. Re: Mix Meat
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: Mix Meat
From: JoAnn Gongos
2e. Mix Meat
From: rbmc1231937

3a. Feeded Fish
From: K9FindM@aol.com
3b. Re: Feeded Fish
From: bluegracepwd
3c. Re: Feeded Fish
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Yasuko herron
3e. Re: Feeded Fish
From: costrowski75
3f. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Yasuko herron
3g. Re: Feeded Fish
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: sources?
From: antarpremal
4b. Re: sources?
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: sources?
From: Yasuko herron

5a. I Finally Took The Plunge -Question
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
5b. Re: I Finally Took The Plunge -Question
From: Mike Frantzen

6a. I think I've been feeding WAYtoo much....
From: kaebruney
6b. Re: I think I've been feeding WAYtoo much....
From: costrowski75

7a. question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
From: reesecup35
7b. Re: question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
From: john payne

8a. Re: deworming
From: Tina Berry
8b. ADMIN/Re: deworming
From: costrowski75


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. menus for pups, pregnant bitches, and everyone else
Posted by: "Rebecca Little" pbgs@delhitel.net canucme278
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:34 am ((PDT))

Can some one please post or email me private with some menus that are suitable for puppies(age ranges would be good too), pregnant bitches, and everyone else in between. I just want to make sure I am doing this right!!! I have access to lots of beef scraps, chicken backs and quarters, turkey necks, chicken necks, organ meats of all sorts(beef, pork, chicken), duck carcass', pork necks, rabbit, fish(jack mackeral or salmon canned)and lamb necks. Also could someone PLEASE tell me are hearts organs or muscle??? Also my guys LOVE chicken hearts how often is it ok to give them. They must be the hershey kisses of the doggy world because they will do anything for them!
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: menus for pups, pregnant bitches, and everyone else
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

Hi Rebecca,

the key to feeding dogs correctly, whether they are working dogs,
pregnant bitches, or mums and pups is to ensure a good range of food
sources, and whole prey whenever you can get it.

check out my page here:

http://www.bluegrace.com/rawpwd.html

which also includes pictures of
what the dogs and pups eat.

Sounds like you've got some good sources there already.

cheers,

Jane

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Mix Meat
Posted by: "heidilambeth" heidilambeth@yahoo.com heidilambeth
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

Is it OK to mix Meat, like chicken and beef in one feeding, ore do I
> feed only chicken , and then the nechst meal only beef and so on.??
> Barb &Reily
>

I mix meat all the time, but if you're a new raw feeder, then wait
until your dog(s) have adjusted completely, otherwise it can cause an
upset stomach.

Heidi

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Mix Meat
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

Hi Barb,

I will often feed 3-4 different meat sources at a meal. eg: horse
liver + beef heart + chicken pieces + fish.

Although at the moment, I'm running a bit short on food, so I'm off
tomorrow to see if I can us some rabbits for the dogs!

cheers,

Jane

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Mix Meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))

"rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@...> wrote:
>
> Is it OK to mix Meat, like chicken and beef in one feeding,
*****
This is a perfectly fine practice.

It is not uncommon for my dogs to get "leftover" meals that may include
beef liver, beef trim, venison trim, chicken backs and perhaps even pig
spleen. They do fine on such meals.

The only potential downside to such meals is if your dog responds badly
to the meal you won't necessarily know which ingredient was the cause.
So you might not want to try this with new, untested meats. OTOH, if
you know your dog is rock solid, just go for it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Mix Meat
Posted by: "JoAnn Gongos" jogongos@adelphia.net joanngongos
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

I have a good source for free venison , it comes either ground, steaks or roasts with no bones. When I feed the venison I combine it with turkey or chicken backs.

joAnn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Mix Meat
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:20 am ((PDT))

Thank you ,all you wonderful people ChrisO, Jo Ann ,Heidi &Jane for
taking you're time to answer my mix Meat question . Barb&Reily

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Feeded Fish
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:00 am ((PDT))

Hi - I am new to the group and see that fish is on the menu for many raw
feeders. I feed raw, but have only on occasion fed fish. To me, it didn't seem
like a " as natural" food for dogs (as opposed to poultry or rabbit),
although I am sure it can be scavenged in the wild. Do people feed fish mainly for
the meat or for the omega oils?

Regards,

Maria Hillegas
SARDOM

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:04 am ((PDT))

Well if you're a dingo living on Fraser Island off Queensland, you'd
be eating as much fish as you could get your paws on. And there are
plenty of other examples of fish being a staple.

Fish is a fantastic whole food. My best advice is to avoid the farmed
varieties.

cheers,

Jane
www.bluegrace.com

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:29 am ((PDT))

K9FindM@... wrote:
I feed raw, but have only on occasion fed fish. To me, it didn't
seem
> like a " as natural" food for dogs (as opposed to poultry or
rabbit),
> although I am sure it can be scavenged in the wild.
*****
Fish is probably more "natural" than poultry! In the wild fish is
likely to be both scavenged and caught, depending on circumstance;
and it would definitely be for the meat.

For our dogs, most any fish can be fed as a source of high quality
protein and many people feed precisely for that reason. Only certain
fish are useful for Omega 3--salmon, trout, mackerel, herring,
sardine, anchovy and several less impressive others; obviously these
provide high quality protein as well. And it is only Omega 3 that
these fish provide, which is a good thing since our dogs have little
need for additional Omega 6, and Omega 9 is not just an issue for
carnivores.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040701/133.html

It takes quite a lot of the right fish fed regularly to provide
adequate ongoing Omega 3s. Given the overfished state of many
valuable species as well as the concerns for accumulated toxins, it
is not necessarily most effective to rely on fish as the sole source
of Omega 3 fatty acids. I recommend feeding high quality whole raw
fish primarily for nutrition, and if doing so also provides
occasional Omega 3, all the better.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

>I recommend feeding high quality whole raw fish primarily for nutrition, and if doing so also >provides occasional Omega 3, all the better.

Hi,Chris.I give Fish oil daily.You stated "provides Occasinal Omega 3",does that mean we need to give fish oil WHEN you don't feed fish as meal??

Am I over-giving Fish oil?

yassy



---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:04 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
I give Fish oil daily.You stated "provides Occasinal Omega 3",does
that mean we need to give fish oil WHEN you don't feed fish as meal??
>
> Am I over-giving Fish oil?
*****
No. It's hard if not impossible to overgive fish oil.

What I meant to say was to feed the kind of fish you want to feed and
if some of it offers Omega 3 as well as being a good protein source,
that's great. Just don't realistically try to depend on fish as the
only source of Omega 3.

I suggest you supplement with fish oil every day (if that is the plan
you prefer) and only skip it when you are feeding a high Omega 3
fish. However, it would not be bad to both give the supplement AND
feed high Omega 3 fish on the same day. You do not have to do one or
the other, you can do both.

And for those of you who aren't doing either, that's okay too!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3f. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))

> Just don't realistically try to depend on fish as the only source of Omega 3

Hi,chris.Thank you so much for added info to my knowledge for this and for Tuna/Salmon thread replies. I am very appreciated.

Now,I understand what you meant by 'occasionary' in you previous post. So,I am doing ok as I am doing.

I usually feed salmon in can (in water not in oil) or get chile salmon at grocery store.
if I accidentaly pick up Salmon from say Alaska or anywhere in PNW area,then,I know I can cook for myself but is it ok to cook and feed it to palette?

I know cooked fish is not as valued as raw ones but I can do that?

I know freezing could kill parasite but I am not all that comfortable for unsure thing.

Thank you and thank you everyone for enriching my knowledge in this list.

Yassy

PS;I am learning a little knowledge day by day with this list and I am loving it!


---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3g. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> if I accidentaly pick up Salmon from say Alaska or anywhere in
PNW area,then,I know I can cook for myself but is it ok to cook and
feed it to palette?
*****
It is highly unlikely that you who lives in Virginia will accidently
acquire salmon from the Pacific Northwest. If when you are shopping
for salmon there is no sign on it that identifies origin, ask. Fish
are supposed to be labeled by country of origin, whether they're
fresh or frozen, whether they're wild or farmed, and if color has
been added. Most reputable sources post this information.

You should not feed cooked fish to your dog unless the piece has been
deboned. While raw fish bones are edible, cooked fish bones become
quite inflexible. Yes, the canned salmon you feed contains bones;
yes, these bones--cooked under high pressure--are okay to feed.

Whenever you have the opportunity to feed wild caught fish, if there
is any concern at all, freeze the fish solid for a week or two.

When you buy human grade meat of any kind you rarely have to even
consider freezing but if it makes you feel safer, by all means freeze.

I'd much rather see someone freeze their dog's raw meats than feed
kibble.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: sources?
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@> wrote:
> >
> > "antarpremal" <antarpremal@> wrote:
> > >I would love to get some wild meat, rabbit, elk,
> > > deer.....not easy to come by in the suburbs.
> > *****
> > Have you posted your wish list to the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier list?
> > It's a sister list opened specifically to help people link up with
> > suppliers who have want rawfeeders want.
> > Chris O
> >
> Ok chris I'll do that. Thanks for the reply!
> Jen
>
Hey Chris. This is Jennifer again. I plan to contact that list however I guess I am still
confused about what parts to ask for. I guess as far as rabbit or chicken it can be whole
but what about the rest. Is there edible bone in lamb, beef, veal, elk deer? What parts are
the desirable parts for the dog.

I just purchased some veal shank, and then read that it may not be good to feed unless it
is whole. As she was getting into it I saw it was sliced. I helped her to eat it while holding it
while she tore off the meat. I was afraid for her teeth. She was grinding at the marrow on
one end pretty hard with her lower ones, and then got off a circular part that was a slice
and started to try to eat. I took it out but I get it now how it could damage her teeth.

So ribs for recreation in the whole slab form, ...pork buts, picnics....I don't know what that
is....but read it here... uhhhh....what else?


Can any of these be found at the grocery store as I begin this search?

Thanks so much!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: sources?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

"antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
I guess I am still
> confused about what parts to ask for. I guess as far as rabbit or
chicken it can be whole
> but what about the rest. Is there edible bone in lamb, beef, veal,
elk deer? What parts are
> the desirable parts for the dog.
*****
If you are posting to the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier list, theoretically
anything you mention there will dog-appropriate, if not always
wonderfully desirable. That's what the CF-S is for!

Lamb, veal, elk plus goat, deer and pig all offer varying degrees of
edible bone. Beef bone may be somewhat edible for some dogs, but
generally it's easiest to think of beef as inedible until proven
otherwise.

When dealing with the CF-S list, I don't think you have to draw them
a picture. If you refer to "body parts" or "meaty bones" or "trim"
people ought to know what you mean. If you use the term "prey model"
most suppliers understand you want whole meats, whole meaty bones; if
you say "RMBs" you are likely to get offers for bonier, less meaty
but still effectively edible bones. Specify no "rec bones", no
ground meats, no commercial blends. That ought to get you started.

Also browse the CF-S archives for possible suppliers.


> I just purchased some veal shank, and then read that it may not be
good to feed unless it
> is whole. As she was getting into it I saw it was sliced. I helped
her to eat it while holding it
> while she tore off the meat. I was afraid for her teeth.
*****
Yes, veal shanks and all other meaty bones should be offered whole,
not sliced. I feed my cat sliced lamb shanks; she is strong enough
to be able to strip the bones clean but too small to break or swallow
the bones. She's the only critter I feed sliced bone to.

Veal bone is generally pretty soft, so tooth damage (though entirely
possible) is less of an issue than swallowing errors. A sliced veal
shank is perfectly sized and shaped for enthusiastic swallowing. For
really big dogs these may only be scary moments; for smaller dogs a
swallowed shank slice could easily result in choking.


> So ribs for recreation in the whole slab form, ...pork buts,
picnics....I don't know what that
> is....but read it here... uhhhh....what else?
*****
I suggest you weed the term "recreation" from your vocabulary! Rib
slabs can be fed for the meat they provide as well as the interactive
energy they require. They might be considered light meals and you
should collect the bones when they are well-chewed but they can
indeed be meals.

Pork butts and picnics are terms for shoulder roasts of varying shape
and size. These generally are affordable and available; the bones
are edible to some degree depending on the dog. Pork spare ribs,
pork hocks, pork feet, pork necks, pork brisket bone/riblets: all
usable. Almost all the pig is edible.

Also useful are lamb shanks, shoulders, legs, necks, breast; turkey
breast, thighs, legs, necks.

You should be able to find a good store of body part recommendations
in the list archives. Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you can
access the messages:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join


> Can any of these be found at the grocery store as I begin this
search?
*****
Many can, yes. Also check out wholesalers and ethnic markets.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: sources?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

> I am still confused about what parts to ask for.

Hi,I am feeding raw about 1 month and half and still newbie and not introducing all protin base I could get but,if you ask for 4 legged animal,you may want to try rib,and neck as consumable bone meal.

my dog Corgi 1 year and 8 months old ate beef rib taking 90 minutes but all ,goat
neckbone as sample from me one time when I was bagging the meal to zipbag and she ate the bone all,and yesterday,I gave her pork rib slab but she ate as if she is eating chicken.The bone looked as soft as chicken when I see her eating easy.

I avoid shank bone/leg bone area due weight bearing bones and teeth breaker I read.You could give shank maybe but I hear it splinter sharp so,I don't plan to give any of the bone from leg.

For a boneless animal meat I give , tongue,heart and any boneless meat from any parts.
Ah,for Beef,you can give Beef Cheek meat too.My dog loved it a lot.

I found that if you buy lamb from grocery shop,there are not much choice;lamb chop which you need to cut bone out for small sized bone attached,and Lamb arm chop that has T-bone with meat attached but size is so small. And you have Rack of Lamb;basically lamb rib with the meat is Frenched on one end.And you see Lamb shank that I am not going to buy.And Leg of lamb. So... I could get Rib with one end Frenched bone and one end has small amount of meat attached. Or,I copuld get Leg of lamb. But I do not like to give bone from leg so, afterall, I asked the butcher guy to debone it from leg and I got that for next protin after pork and am going to get Lam neck that you can find at shoppers.

Butchers gave me the bone as well after deboned it, so,I let my dog bit off meat off from bone after I went home (it was not much meat attached but it was like sample meat for her/snack if you will). Then,I tossed the bones.

I could just get the leg of lamb as is and give to dog when I introduce lamb as next protin but I was not comfortable giving leg bone to my dog so,my plan is to give either neck bone or rib bone plus leg of lamb's meat chunk will be complete meal for one day.

I am comfortable giving pork butt or pork picnic with bone inside because it is from shoulder (am I right?). I have not tried it yet but my comfortable level is high for those.I am not sure if my dog can eat it or not but I will try and see.

If you can go to Ukrop grocery store,they have cheap pork butt;about 10lb per package and I remember I paied one dollar something per pound.

Good luck

yassy


---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. I Finally Took The Plunge -Question
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:22 am ((PDT))

HI,

Well, I am on day 5 of my raw feeding excursion. Neither of my dogs has
returned their raw chicken to me in forms that I would not appreciate. :o) It is
staying down, no diarrhea, nothing bad. They did have to miss a couple of meals
because they were too busy touching the food with their paws instead of eating
it. Akitas are a very "pawsy" breed.

Bill, thanks for your suggestions. I stopped the wings (start the cat on
those) and stopped taking the skin off the chicken, although I do still sort of
cut open the chicken quarters a bit so you see the insides and some of the bone,
because they just sat their looking at it whole. I am sure once they are
eating well, I will be able to stop that. So far they have had large split breast,
big leg quarters that appear to have some back on them and some pretty meaty
backs. I have some organ meat, but just have not given it yet, but I did
notice that the backs did have some chunks of organ meat on them. Oh yum! :o)

I figure if things continue to go well, I will keep them on the assorted
chicken parts for another week or so and move on to another meat. Does there tend
to be a consensus about what is the best next meat to start with and am I then
best to stick with just that meat for a week or two and then move to another?


I lucked out and found a large butcher not too far from my home that caters
to quite a variety of ethnicity's. I found quite a variety of meats and parts
that I didn't know were sold. They also told me that they can order me cases of
anything that I would like. Until I get a freezer, I think this will be the
way to go, because they are close and their prices weren't horrible and I could
go weekly or even biweekly for the time being.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but when they do eat, they seem to enjoy it.

Regards,
Carla


**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: I Finally Took The Plunge -Question
Posted by: "Mike Frantzen" hoover1203@yahoo.com hoover1203
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

just want to remind you when switching foods-go slow! Still give the chicken and a little of the new food. I switched too quick with mine and was up all night!

good luck!
chris F.

Maiakitas@aol.com wrote:
HI,

Well, I am on day 5 of my raw feeding excursion. Neither of my dogs has
returned their raw chicken to me in forms that I would not appreciate. :o) It is
staying down, no diarrhea, nothing bad. They did have to miss a couple of meals
because they were too busy touching the food with their paws instead of eating
it. Akitas are a very "pawsy" breed.

Bill, thanks for your suggestions. I stopped the wings (start the cat on
those) and stopped taking the skin off the chicken, although I do still sort of
cut open the chicken quarters a bit so you see the insides and some of the bone,
because they just sat their looking at it whole. I am sure once they are
eating well, I will be able to stop that. So far they have had large split breast,
big leg quarters that appear to have some back on them and some pretty meaty
backs. I have some organ meat, but just have not given it yet, but I did
notice that the backs did have some chunks of organ meat on them. Oh yum! :o)

I figure if things continue to go well, I will keep them on the assorted
chicken parts for another week or so and move on to another meat. Does there tend
to be a consensus about what is the best next meat to start with and am I then
best to stick with just that meat for a week or two and then move to another?

I lucked out and found a large butcher not too far from my home that caters
to quite a variety of ethnicity's. I found quite a variety of meats and parts
that I didn't know were sold. They also told me that they can order me cases of
anything that I would like. Until I get a freezer, I think this will be the
way to go, because they are close and their prices weren't horrible and I could
go weekly or even biweekly for the time being.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but when they do eat, they seem to enjoy it.

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. I think I've been feeding WAYtoo much....
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

Firdst I must say, that I am thrilled to be part of this group. I'm so
excited about having raw feeding friends to share my dilemas with.


So here's my first one....


I dove in head first to raw feeding and my dogs are doing great. I
have a 13lb scottie mix (2yrs) and a 6lb rat terrier pup (6mos).

Until yesterday, I would feed them each a chicken leg or thigh... on
some days chicken back and heart meat, or 2 trky necks each. The puppy
eats as much if not more than the older dog.

Well, I was aghast to find that to weight percentages I should only be
feeding the little one 2-3oz a day and the older one 8oz!! My boys
have been eating that and more I'm sure!!! They love their raw food
and sit on their mats eagerly when hungry.

How am I going to satisfy them on 1/3 what they're used to? I don't
want to over fatten my dogs. How does someone scale back the amount
their dogs eat?

And for you small dog feeders out there, how much do you feed your
little one? is 1 chicken neck really enough to satisfy???

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: I think I've been feeding WAYtoo much....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:22 am ((PDT))

"kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
> I dove in head first to raw feeding and my dogs are doing great. I
> have a 13lb scottie mix (2yrs) and a 6lb rat terrier pup (6mos).
>
> Until yesterday, I would feed them each a chicken leg or thigh... on
> some days chicken back and heart meat, or 2 trky necks each. The
puppy
> eats as much if not more than the older dog.
>
> Well, I was aghast to find that to weight percentages I should only
be
> feeding the little one 2-3oz a day and the older one 8oz!!
*****
Those percentages are guidelines and generally speaking they should
be increased for small dogs, to as much as 5% if the dog is very
active. The most healthy way to feed your dogs though is by their
appearance.

You want them to be active, responsive lean athletes with shiny coats
and supple skin and clear eyes. You want see healthy pink gums and
sparkly teeth. You want their stools to reflect the meals. You want
them to eat eagerly, to eat their fill, to leave the table satisifed,
to play hard and sleep well. If this is happening, then you are
feeding the right amount, regardless of what that amount weighs or if
that amount is 2% or 10% of ideal adult body weight.


How does someone scale back the amount
> their dogs eat?
*****
By feeding less, by feeding leaner meats, by feeding less
frequently. All of the above, some of the above. You continue
feeding a good species appropriate diet--which means you do not add
silly things like green beans or piles of any vegetable to "fill the
dog up"--you just feed less of it, one way or the other.

It's a bit tougher with younger pups because you don't want to skip
meals (well, I don't at least) but even with a pup you can
alternate "normal" meals with "small" meals.

As long as you use their physical response as your guideline, you can
continue feeding the amounts you do. However, I do think you are
feeding more bone than is needed by either dog. One turkey neck is
plenty--to "make the meal" add meat. A chicken neck plus meat would
work for the baby--not very interactive but for a "cutting back" meal
the combo should do.

You don't need a scale. You need to lay your hands and eyes on your
dogs and use that information to guide your feeding choices.
Envision what you prefer them to look like, then feed to that goal.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
Posted by: "reesecup35" reesecup35@yahoo.com reesecup35
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:42 am ((PDT))

Hi I haven't posted in while, I was feeding raw then I went to giving
them K***** one that is a high grade and feeding them raw with it
because they were getting picky and I was getting fedup with there
pickiness but I probably caused it because I would cut up there food
and even cut up the bones because I was afraid that they would get
choked on them. I regret now cutting up the food for all of them at
one time they would eat it off the bone all but my long hair dog he
doesn't have very big teeth and I needed to help him. I have been
giving them alittle raw with the k***** they don't really want the
k***** but they are picky with the chicken and when I feed other meat
other than Chicken they get pickier and they also get the runs even
when I gradually introduce the new meat to them,so I had decided to
just feed K***** from now on then today I let my dogs out when I took
my daycare kids outside and there were these birds around this baby
bird and the dogs got to the baby before I could stop them Tanner my
tan shih tzu got the baby in his mouth and would not let it go he
ended up killing it and I told him if he was going to kill it he had
to eat it well he did most of it anyway I guess I need to get them
back on raw because they want it I just got tired of them being picky
so I guess I need to give it to them and let them eat it off the bone
and eat like they are suppose to eat it. My question is he won't get
sick from eating a baby robin will he? he didn't eat all of it just
the head and some other parts he did not want to share it with any of
the other dogs I felt bad because the parents of the baby were
watching and chirping in the tree I wonder if he would have done that
had I not started him on eating raw.
Theresa

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: question about dog killing and eating a baby robin
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

we let our dogs out the other day, and ones 138 lbs. there was a tiny baby robin in the yard that couldnt fly and as soon as i saw it, i tried to stop the dogs from going over to it, but the big one ran right to it, sniffed it a couple of times, and then walked away. They have both been raw fed for close to 2 yrs now and neither one of them tried to hurt the little bird @ all. so no, i dont think him having ate raw before had anything to do with him eating the bird. dogs are natural born hunters.
Brenda

reesecup35 <reesecup35@yahoo.com> wrote:
with any of
the other dogs I felt bad because the parents of the baby were
watching and chirping in the tree I wonder if he would have done that
had I not started him on eating raw.
Theresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: deworming
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))

"is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do it more than
once a year?"

No - none necessary unless you see worms. If it makes you feel better, do
it once a year but use DE - I thought about doing this but have decided to
only use it if I see worms in their stool. As far as I know worms don't
cause "irreversible damage" you just have to get rid of them if your dog
can't on it's own.

http://blackkatherbs.com/pets.htm
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. ADMIN/Re: deworming
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

The deworming thread was admined to RawChat previously; it is still
inappropriate for the rawfeeding list. Please take this topic to
RawChat, DogHealth or any of several alternative care lists.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


------------------------------------------------------------------------