Feed Pets Raw Food: Aug 23, 2007

Thursday, August 23, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11950

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First week update
From: Giselle
1b. Re: First week update
From: Sandee Lee

2. Raw Meaty Ribs for Si
From: Lisa

3a. Shadow and his Crystals
From: Ash
3b. Re: Shadow and his Crystals
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: Shadow and his Crystals
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Hey y'all!
From: delcaste
4b. Re: Hey y'all!
From: Giselle

5a. Hello! New here...
From: steph.sorensen
5b. Re: Hello! New here...
From: Morledzep@aol.com

6a. Re: starting the raw diet
From: mandajenwalker
6b. Re: starting the raw diet
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: starting the raw diet
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: coriowen
7b. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: Morledzep@aol.com
7c. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: Sandee Lee
7d. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: jmwise80

8. anyone in the Michigan area
From: mandajenwalker

9a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Lisa
9b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Anna Labriola

10a. Re: Interesting Study of Russian Foxes
From: coriowen

11a. Giant Breed feeding?
From: coriowen
11b. Re: Giant Breed feeding?
From: Sandee Lee

12a. I must be doing something right!!! You guys are INCREDIBLE!!!
From: Brandi Bryant
12b. Re: I must be doing something right!!! You guys are INCREDIBLE!!!
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. Re: First week update
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

Gotta love those Newfs! ; )
Eating raw satisfies the carnivore in a dog in ways that processed
cr*p-in-a-bag never can.
Keep us updated, Dawn!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey (who took to raw at 2yo like she'd been eating
it all her life, and never looked back!)

> I just wanted to thank everyone for their help and give an update on
> our first RAW week. My littlest Newfie (6 months) has been plagued
> with diarrhea off and on ever since I got her. We have fecals done all
> of the time and can't find an answer. She hasn't been gaining the
> weight that she should be. After two days on the RAW she had the
> firmest stools she has ever had and she gained 3.5 lbs this week!! My
> other Newfies have not had any diarrhea at all and all seem to be
> enjoying their meals. They all seem a little more "settled" if that
> makes any sense. Anyway thanks again for all of the great advice and
> help!
>
> Dawn T
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: First week update
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

It makes perfect sense, Dawn! Appropriate diet, getting rid of grains, does
affect behavior. Glad to hear things are going well!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "dawn_rescue" <dteuscher@tx.rr.com>

I just wanted to thank everyone for their help and give an update on
our first RAW week. My littlest Newfie (6 months) has been plagued
with diarrhea off and on ever since I got her. We have fecals done all
of the time and can't find an answer. She hasn't been gaining the
weight that she should be. After two days on the RAW she had the
firmest stools she has ever had and she gained 3.5 lbs this week!! My
other Newfies have not had any diarrhea at all and all seem to be
enjoying their meals. They all seem a little more "settled" if that
makes any sense.

Messages in this topic (3)
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2. Raw Meaty Ribs for Si
Posted by: "Lisa" courteouscanines640@yahoo.com courteouscanines640
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi all-
I stopped at the grocery store on the way home today and found a dozen
raw meaty ribs on the bone for, ready for it?...$2.34!! I couldn't
believe the price.
So now six dogs (two of mine don't enjoy raw), are happily munching on
their fresh raw ribs.
I thought for sure I would be grossed out to the max, but I'm happy to
report I'm not and I know they are enjoying it!
I'm not planning on making this their main diet as I am already
pleased with the current diet, but I do plan on keeping RMB's on a
regular basis.

Just wanted to update,

Lisa and her Eight.

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Shadow and his Crystals
Posted by: "Ash" want4rain@yahoo.com want4rain
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

we started all of our furbabies on raw a few months ago. amongst it
all, Shadow developed crystals. vet says he needs a diet change,
magnesium causes some crystals and a lower pH would help but admits to
being in the dark about a raw diet.

any suggestions?

we predominantly feed chicken, chicken organs, fish and eggs.

let me also say, i suspect that he and his brother were inbred. they
both have a handful of health issues that suggest either inbreeding or
starvation in the womb.

thanks a bunch!!

-ashley

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Shadow and his Crystals
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

Ashley,

Most often crystals are due to a UTI and have nothing to do with diet. Make
certain they have run a culture on the urine and get this treated if
necessary.

You do need to introduce some red meat in their diets, tho!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ash" <want4rain@yahoo.com>

any suggestions?

we predominantly feed chicken, chicken organs, fish and eggs.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Shadow and his Crystals
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ashley!
What kind of crystals?

Just off the top of my head, you don't seem to be feeding enough
protein or organ variety. Add pork, rabbit, beef, lamb, etc.

You might have to adjust the kinds of protein you feed.

Here's the results of a search ( keyword: crystals)in the list
archives, you will probably find some helpful posts there;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=crystals&submit=Search&charset=ISO-8859-1
http://tinyurl.com/22g9eb

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

>We started all of our furbabies on raw a few months ago. amongst it
> all, Shadow developed crystals. Vet says he needs a diet change,
> magnesium causes some crystals and a lower pH would help but admits to
> being in the dark about a raw diet.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> We predominantly feed chicken, chicken organs, fish and eggs.
>
> Let me also say, I suspect that he and his brother were inbred. They
> both have a handful of health issues that suggest either inbreeding or
> starvation in the womb.
>
> Thanks a bunch!!
>
> -ashley
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:57 pm ((PDT))

> I aren't Giselle but IMO smashing bones that might not otherwise be
> eaten allows the dog to ingest bone it might not comfortably digest--
or MORE bone that it can comfortably ingest.
>
> Smashing bones doesn't make them more available for cleaning teeth,
> exercising muscles and having a fun time. Smashing bones simply gets
> them more quickly into the stomach. Which IMO is an achievement of
> questionable merit.
>
> Chris O

Oh,oh I knew I'd get admonished. I'm still pretty nervous watching them
eat (although they are getting better and better). I'll just cut out
the meat and feed meat only because some pieces were really good. I'm
going to do better although it's not all my fault :)

Silvina

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Silvina!
We aren't here to admonish people, that's not what we do!

We support feeding a species appropriate raw prey model diet on this
list, and give advice to help people achieve that goal with their dogs.

Sometimes we have to give the same advice over and over again, daily -
thats why we can get creative when we repeatedly give the same advice
and amuse ourselves a bit.

No scolding here, just patient iterations of what we know is correct
and right, until the person asking questions 'gets it'.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Oh,oh I knew I'd get admonished. I'm still pretty nervous watching them
> eat (although they are getting better and better). I'll just cut out
> the meat and feed meat only because some pieces were really good. I'm
> going to do better although it's not all my fault :)
>
> Silvina
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Hello! New here...
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:58 pm ((PDT))

I just joined about half an hour or so ago. :) I currently have two
pit bulls, one being a foster with no teeth, one black lab, and a
domestic shorthair cat. All are between 2 and 4 in age (although not
sure about the pit with no teeth).

They are all currently on dry kibble (except the toothless pit, who
is on canned wet food). I am a wildlife biologist by training and
must say that the raw feeding diet makes more sense to me than any
diet I've ever seen for dogs, given their natural history and
biological requirements as a species.

That said, does anyone have any recommendations for how to get them
all started on this diet? The toothless pit bull is moving to Ohio
in two days, but I can give his new mom any information about his
possibilities (like grinding all of the food before feeding, since he
can't really chew it).

Do I just jump into it 100% or do I integrate like you are supposed
to when changing commercial brands in order to avoid such a shock to
their digestive systems?

And do you have any recommendations for a dog with no teeth? He
chewed on rocks when he was left starving with his previous owner and
has ground his teeth down to the gumline, so he has absolutely zero
for chewing. He is able to chew large bloody holes in himself with
the skin problems that seem to have popped up overnight. I am almost
certain it is food allergies, since he didn't have this problem when
he was not eating anything, and he doesn't have fleas.

Sorry this is so long! And thanks in advance for any advice you can
give me on the best way to get started.

-Steph Sorensen

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Hello! New here...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/23/2007 6:59:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

Do I just jump into it 100% or do I integrate like you are supposed
to when changing commercial brands in order to avoid such a shock to
their digestive systems?

Steph,

don't sell that pit bull short.. i'll bet money he will find a way to bite
what needs to be bitten.. lol.

i personally like to fast the dogs for a day between commercial food and raw,
but that is just me. And that is the ONLY transition necessary. toss out
the commercial poison and start feeding real food.. it's that simple.

starting slow is always recommended, start with small meal portions and one
type of meat for the first week or two.. then gradually add more meats, one at
a time.

Let that toothless pit bull have a nice chicken leg quarter or a bone-in
chicken breast and see how he does.. you might be amazed. He may not be able to
eat the hunkier meats, or tough stuff like pork skin though.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: starting the raw diet
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks for the input Sandee!
I tried the 2-3% per day......I can't believe how much meat Hank (my
dane) can go through. I can't really afford it.....I hope the whole
chicken is cheaper! He doesn't eat all that much dog food these days
(he is 10 years old). He doesn't really use enough energy to burn
much, he just sleeps and poops and goes on walks when we make him. He
used to eat about 10 cups of food a day and we are now getting about
4-6 cups down him if we are lucky!
He doesn't really care for the raw meat either. He layed down and
looked at it as if he was scared of it. Any advice on that?
Evie (our bull terrier) ate the chicken like a pro.....and Louie (our
pug) took a few bites of it and ran away! I figure it will take time
and they have to get hungry eventually! So I will just keep putting
down chicken at every meal until they realize that is all there is to
eat! Hopefully it works.
I want Louie to take to it more than any of them because of his skin
issues!
Now as far as adding other meats....what do you mean? What are some
of the best kinds to feed and what is the ratio? How much "bone" meat
vs other protein sources and organs? What type of organs do you feed?
I find all of this VERY confusing!
PLEASE HELP!!!
THanks again!
Mandy

Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: starting the raw diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mandy,

Well, I have an older Dane and she doesn't eat 2% of her weight either.
Older couch potato Danes are not going to require that amount of food. Not
knowing ages, that's just a recommended starting point. :)

Raw is quite bland compared to kibble so you may need to enhance the odor
and flavor a bit. A few tricks are to warm it, cut into the meat in a few
spots and sprinkle with parmesan cheese. My newest Dane adopted, at 6 years
old, fell for this trick hook line and sinker and now runs me over to get to
his eating spot!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@chartermi.net>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: starting the raw diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:26 pm ((PDT))

Ooops...forgot to respond to the rest of your message!

You can feed any meat available to you....beef, pork, lamb, emu, venison,
goat, fish...whatever you can get your hands on. Bone should only be around
10% of the overall diet so concentrate on lots of meat, 10% organs, half
being liver. It really isn't difficult once you get going...promise!!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@chartermi.net>
Now as far as adding other meats....what do you mean? What are some
of the best kinds to feed and what is the ratio? How much "bone" meat
vs other protein sources and organs? What type of organs do you feed?

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

Sandee,
At first, it was watery and now it is more like soft stool. I did
switch them quickly and I feel terrible for it. I think everything is
balanced now though. I take the little girls (Dachshunds) on long
walks on our back pasture each night and only my two year old seemed to
have the softer stool this evening. When I rode my colts this evening
the big dogs (Mastiff and Dobie) were out by the arena with me and
neither seemed to have any diarrehea. I will be happy to be many days
and weeks into this...=) Thank you for your help Sandee.
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Cori,
>
> Do you mean soft stools or uncontrollable watery diarrhea? Soft
stools can
> happen with diet change. Make sure you are not feeding too much as
that
> also can be a cause.
>
> Glad to hear they are feeling good and happy with their new food! :))
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "coriowen" <COwen98@...>
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/23/2007 3:58:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
COwen98@aol.com writes:

I live about an hour from
the closest Sam's but I thought I would go by there and stock up. Any
suggestions? I don't have a Costco nearby, so that is not an option.

Cori,

i don't know where ya are.. and i don't shop at Sam's Club or Walmart (all
the same corp), but i do shop at Costco.. i look at the meat there, but with the
exception of the boneless pork shoulder roasts it's all far too expensive for
me to even buy meat for our human family.

I watch sales in the grocery stores (another excuse for me to send out the
link to my favorite shopping website.. hehehe):

_http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3_ (http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3)

about every other week i drive around town and check out the local ethnic
grocery stores. Pick up a few odds and ends, oddball cuts, cheap or odd organ
meats, and of course, the obligatory lamb heads for the dogs that love them and
have the time to work on them.

you can also go to the Carnivore Feeder/Supplier yahoo list to find bulk meat
suppliers in your area. links are in a file on the webpage for this list,
and in the FILE emails that you get when you sign up and once a month after that.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

Cori,

You didn't do anything wrong by switching quickly. Sounds like they are
doing fine. Soft stools are really no big deal! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "coriowen" <COwen98@aol.com>
At first, it was watery and now it is more like soft stool. I did
switch them quickly and I feel terrible for it. I think everything is
balanced now though. I take the little girls (Dachshunds) on long
walks on our back pasture each night and only my two year old seemed to
have the softer stool this evening. When I rode my colts this evening
the big dogs (Mastiff and Dobie) were out by the arena with me and
neither seemed to have any diarrehea.

Messages in this topic (6)
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7d. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "coriowen" <COwen98@...> wrote:
>
I take the little girls (Dachshunds) on long
> walks on our back pasture each night and only my two year old seemed
to
> have the softer stool this evening.

Were they having diarrhea during the walks? Walking can get the 'ole
pipes to movin' and sometimes make stuff come out before it is really
ready to. If I walk my dog a couple hours after he eats he will have
watery diarrhea, but if I walk before he eats or a long time after he
eats, everything comes out more solid.

That might not have a thing to do with your problem, but that sentence
jumped out at me and I wanted to check.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (6)
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8. anyone in the Michigan area
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

I am wondering if anyone on this group lives in Michigan near the
Flint or Novi area that can tell me of a good, cheap place to get
meat?????? I have a fairly cheap butcher but I am wondering of there
is any better places around here!
Thanks
mandy

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Lisa" courteouscanines640@yahoo.com courteouscanines640
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:06 pm ((PDT))

I'm not exactly a vegetarian but I do not eat meat myself. I get my
organic meat from Whole Foods Market or my local butcher. I get
venison and lamb from the local butcher which comes boneless, so I
feed Raw Meaty Bones from the grocery store which is usually on a
great sale.
We live near the ocean so I get fresh fish caught daily, except I cook
fish and some other meats for my dogs.
I too thought I would hate handling such meat except I already have to
handle it when cooking it, though I cook it in the crock pot so it is
a lot easier. Like today, I fed RMB ribs to six dogs and it was not
so bad. I just cut it off the bone, used some paper towels to carry
them outside, and placed them on the grass for each dog. Easy.
It's actually easier to feed raw because there is less "hands-on"
handling involved. When cooking chicken or fish, I have to make sure
and get all the bone off so I can cook all the good meats.
I would suggest starting with something simple, like from a Whole
Foods store. Get some chicken wings or raw meaty ribs and just place
them on the floor. After he has consumed enough for his body weight,
take it away and freeze the rest.
Or, even simpler, look for some prepared RMB's from Nature's Variety
such as Chicken necks and the like.

Good luck!

Lisa and her Eight.

Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

I just wanted to know if there are any other vegetarians
> out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw meat.
The
> thought of it makes me sick but I think this diet would be beneficial
> for my puppy with all her health problems.

Hi, Rhonda. Just another vegetarian(almost vegan) who feeds my puppy
(21 weeks old) raw. Can't help you with the sick part, but I can tell
you I suck it up and cut chickens in half, and other meats into big
hunks. Yuk! I want to puke sometimes, but I really, really believe
it's the best for my dog. Just like I believe a plant based diet is
best for us, a meat based diet is best for my little puppers. It is
hard sometimes, but get as much knowledge as you can so you can keep
telling yourself it's best for the dog!

Anna

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Interesting Study of Russian Foxes
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:09 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

I remember seeing something about this also. They were in a lot of
cages and the lady would handle them every day. None of the evidence
surprised me at all.
Cori

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Giant Breed feeding?
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

Sandee you have Danes and I have a Mastiff and I read a couple of your
posts where you say to feed a whole chicken, where do you usually buy
your "whole" chickens? I would guess my Dobe could eat half of one,
huh? I would think this is a much cheaper route to go. You have to
understand, I am a married woman with no two legged children that does
not cook! LOL I mostly eat beef(from the ranch) or chicken that my
husband gets at the store or tells me what cuts to get so he can grill
it, or I eat lots of cereal or Lean Cuisine meals! I know I am
pitiful. I ride a lot of horses during the day and take 100% care of
the 4 dogs and that means walking/running the Dachshunds everyday. I
don't work so I do have lots of time in which to do these things but I
just don't know where to buy "whole" chickens. Remember, I am not in a
metro area like Dallas, I am out in the sticks and only go to a big
town once a month so I would have to stock up.
Cori

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Giant Breed feeding?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:31 pm ((PDT))

Hey Cori,

I live in the middle of nowhere also. I watch the sale ads in the
neighboring towns and when there are sales on chickens, pork roasts, etc. I
call, order a couple of cases and make my journey! :)) There is a Safeway
50 miles from me and that's where I buy most of my supplies.

I also have a wholesaler and a couple of other sources that I hit every
couple of months (200 miles) for heart, liver, lamb, beef cheeks,
etc...things I cannot get locally.

Whole chickens should be easy to find anywhere...same place you buy your
Lean Cuisine!! LOL

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "coriowen" <COwen98@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. I must be doing something right!!! You guys are INCREDIBLE!!!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:51 pm ((PDT))

I can already see improvements in my male GS Max!! He's beginning to
look a little bit better weight wise - and his attitude is improving.
He's starting to follow me around more, and he did something that he
hasn't done in a long time. He brought me a toy!! It brought tears
to my eyes knowing that my boy may be feeling better!!!

You guys are incredible - THANK YOU SO MUCH!

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: I must be doing something right!!! You guys are INCREDIBLE!!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

KEWL!!
Way back when, I switched my two old Newfs, aged 10yo, to home cooked,
then b*rfie style, then prey model raw in the space of two years. The
change in these oldies was just as great from home cooked to b*arfie,
b*arfie to prey model as it was from kibble to home cooked!
Their looks, and movement was much improved and they enjoyed their old
age more than I cold have hoped.
They were two days apart in age, I lost the male to a life saving
surgery (which he lived through, but didn't survive the night) at
15yo, and the female to 'old age' at 16yo.
Enjoy that old guy!
G

> I can already see improvements in my male GS Max!! He's beginning to
> look a little bit better weight wise - and his attitude is improving.
> He's starting to follow me around more, and he did something that he
> hasn't done in a long time. He brought me a toy!! It brought tears
> to my eyes knowing that my boy may be feeling better!!!
>
> You guys are incredible - THANK YOU SO MUCH!
>
> --
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
> www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11949

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: cypressbunny
1c. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Joyner, Katie
1d. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Yasuko herron
1e. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: Peeing on spot where food was
From: Dina

3a. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Michael Moore

4a. Re: Hey y'all!
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Hey y'all!
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: Yasuko herron
5c. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: costrowski75

6a. starting the raw diet
From: mandajenwalker
6b. Re: starting the raw diet
From: Sandee Lee

7a. vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy raw
From: Rhonda
7b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Laurie Swanson
7c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Giselle

8a. Re: enhanced meats (was: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I ca
From: Laurie Swanson

9. Re: 10 month old dane
From: Felicia Kost

10a. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee

11a. New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: coriowen
11b. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: Sandee Lee

12. Interesting Study of Russian Foxes
From: irwin_bird

13. First week update
From: dawn_rescue

14.1. Re: turkey legs
From: delcaste

Messages
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1a. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

>I'm not sure if the mucous is a result of the treats,

Hi,Andrea. Since May,palette is not fed any commercial made biscuit at all. And,the neighbor's doggy treatswere quite big for palette.Maybe bigger than Thumb. They have rottie /chow mix weighing around 120lb. So,their treats are quite too much even one.

well,palette got 3 of those,plus 6inch length biscuit adding to the treat she got from me; 4inch or so lengthed oxtail treats from merricks.

Now,thelatest poo shedid at 12:30pm was finishing with clear water coming out from her butt(maybe about 1-2tbs worth?),I am thinking I can consider it as diarrhea..

I am wondering mucous does not appear with too much foor or with something that had not been fed for 3 month and it got irritated her intestine?

If that was not the culprit,it must be Duck. But the first time when I fed Duck,I started with Neck with fish with some organshe is getting usd to and she did fine.

Yestreday was Cut-up Duck. Portion I gave was under the wing area to above the leg.

I had to cut-up around 6 pieces.

so,mainly she got breast meat with rib bone. Since I did not remove all fat skin and left some,it could be one to suspect as well.

>maybe Palette just ate a particularly boney part of the duck during one meal.

Hmm,not really.I saw meatsome with Rib and she had fish too.I think too much bone is going to oposit direction;constipation or vomit bone from mouth.She isn't.

She is on raw about 3 month and some weeks and only time i saw her mucous with poo was with Lamb I had problem with. So,if the treat was not culprit,then,I suspect fat she takes.

>FWIW, there are some times that I don't allow people to give my boys treats. In order to >not offend them I tell a white lie and say that they are highly allergic to many grains, so >thank you but no treats for them.

yea,I could.. I just thought that saying No is somewhat rude,so,I didn't say any. In my mind,I was thinking that it could cause problems because she got cut off from store bought treats for 3 months now,and it may get irritated ,but like you said, maybe since she had it before and had no problem when I was giving and it maybe ok even now. But.. I am not sure if the treats causing that or Duck causing it still.

They one time gave palette 2 slice of salami! Well,Palette liked it but I was like..umm......

I don't remember if that cause any problems or not.

Anyway,I try fat skin more off from meal this time and see if this improve.

Thank you

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> > well,palette got 3 of those,plus 6inch length biscuit adding to
the treat she got from me;

*** So, she hasn't had any grain-based treats for months, and then
suddenly got 3 huge ones from the neighbor? I would blame the treats--
her system is no longer accustomed to dealing with these species-
inappropriate foods. Or perhaps, is no longer crippled by dealing with
those foods, and now disposes of them as quickly as possible.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Joyner, Katie" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:50 pm ((PDT))

That's some serious detail. Do you feed any dairy? When I feed too
much Kefir my dogs will get mucous-y stools.

Katie

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Messages in this topic (8)
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1d. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:05 pm ((PDT))

> So, she hasn't had any grain-based treats for months, and then suddenly got 3 huge ones >from the neighbor?

Hi,Carrie. yea,after switching to raw in May,and after I noticed one of thedoggy biscuit I used to give got recalled,I tossed all biscuits that I had and no more commercially made doggy treats including semi soft training treats because I read something not too good about it;coloring and chemical and preservative like BHT and stuff like that.

So,from May, all treats she gets from me were either Bully sticks,MooTube(treachea treat),Texas tooth pics(natural oxtail treats) and the Beef liver treats that I dried in oven and use for training treats. So,yes,in our house,completely no grain based treats for at least 3 months now.

> I would blame the treats--her system is no longer accustomed to dealing with these >species-inappropriate foods. Or perhaps, is no longer crippled by dealing with
>those foods, and now disposes of them as quickly as possible.

yea,I talked about it to my husbandas well and, he said the same. He did not have chance to look at her poo but he suspeced that way.

Andrea said treats usually cause loose stool but not with mucous,so,I don't know for sure whether Duck or treats..made this.

I try removing fat skin from portion and see how she does.

So far.. from last poo,it has been 6 hours passed but no poo call from her so, I guess it getting stablized I think.

Thank you for your thoughts.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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1e. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:15 pm ((PDT))

>Do you feed any dairy? When I feed too much Kefir my dogs will get mucous-y stools.

Hi,Katie. WEll,I know I know detail about waht fed and waht poo what time.. I know,I know.

Until I introduceall protin that I like to feed,I decided to keep journal.That makes you understand pattern or waht did not work before and how I tweeked it,what fishhad prob andwaht torelated well etc.. so,it really helps.

I usually have 4 line or so to write; I go like..

Aug 24
AM 8am solid poo,12:30pm softer sidepoo but with moucous,2:30pm bits with water from butt

Fed;xxx,yyy,zzz(write what I fed that day with amount)

And,if I wanted to leave comment or question I write one line.

Today,I may write;"Duck or treats?I tried removing some fat skin of Duck off"

Something like that. It is nothing big,not like every single detail in it. I just write out something I like to remember for later read.

Like I know I had prob with lamb tongue with palette and she can torelate 1 oz of tongue and more than that causing poo problems so,nexttime when I feed lamb, I feed 1 oz first and see if she can torelate 2 oz this time etc.. Really,when start out,at least for me,it helps a lot.
It is just me...You don't have to.

About dairy... I give frozen yogurt cube to cool her down after excersize just 1(I don't feed frosty paws too). She drool onto floor and she really like it but no,I don't give dairy every day.I sometimes gives non frozen Yogurt but it is not big amount;one spoonful if I give but that is that and not every day either.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: Peeing on spot where food was
Posted by: "Dina" dotdog99@comcast.net dmmelendez
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:48 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Kapes" <kim@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have read this on several occasions andI thought I would shed some
> light on the subject for those that are interested
>
> The act of urinating on the spot where the food was is a way for the
> dog/wolf to mark an empty food cache.

Very interesting--I have a crate where I feed my dogs. I have a 3mth
old puppy that stays with me during the day and almost everyday he goes
in the feeding crate and pees. Now it all makes sense! The pup eats
raw as well--so now I know! Thanks for the info!

Dina
Pa

Messages in this topic (20)
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3a. Re: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

>>Yeah, they haven't cut down on the water intake at all, I'm going to
have to keep a close eye on that. I just don't see why he'd urinate
on the BED, and the coffee table?!?! I can see like, right by the
door if he couldn't hold it, but he was far from it.

The male is 7mos. and the female is 4 mos.<<

Okay, Peg -- think about this -- your male is now a teenager!! Despite being "altered," as you say, he's still a teenager. As a professional trainer, I can tell you positively that some altered dogs *do* indeed mark territory, and the places that he urinated are indicative of marking. This has nothing to do with not being able to "hold it," this is marking behavior. Whether the cause is vaccine damage or not, the underlying issue is -- this behavior needs to be corrected by behavior modification -- it is *not* in any way, shape or form related to the diet. That is coincidence!
And IMO, very, very, very few dogs at 7 mos. of age are "ready' to be loose in a house without direct adult supervision. There are too many things they can get into that are downright dangerous; crating with a young dog is a safety issue, first and foremost.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (20)
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4a. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
I often
> overlook good buys on pork chops because I have gulpers and the bones
> are so cut and sharp. What do you think if I leave the bone but get
my
> trusty hammer and work on 'em.
*****
I aren't Giselle but IMO smashing bones that might not otherwise be
eaten allows the dog to ingest bone it might not comfortably digest--or
MORE bone that it can comfortably ingest.

Smashing bones doesn't make them more available for cleaning teeth,
exercising muscles and having a fun time. Smashing bones simply gets
them more quickly into the stomach. Which IMO is an achievement of
questionable merit.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi.I heard that Joyce Chen scissor (red handle or white handle,cost
about 20 dollars atamazon.com) works great and I got them.
*****
Cutting turkey legs would not make them less worrisome. Cutting turkey
legs would simply generate a bunch of small, sharp-edged tubes to be
concerned about. Smashing would diminish the bone in all regards--
making it a somewhat more natural injury.

There are some things that need cutting apart. And there are
somethings that need bashing into many parts. (Not that either
treatment is required when feeding a good raw diet.)
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>> Since I feed it along with hunk of meat like say..Beef steak with
gizzard as muscle meat meal etc.., some days are without organs.
*****
<snicker>
This sounds like some of the meals I feed. Not too long ago I fed beef
meat, pork liver and heart, and chicken backs. Worked just fine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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5b. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))

>Not too long ago I fed beef meat, pork liver and heart, and chicken backs. Worked just fine

Hi,Chris. I know I started out from wrong concept of feeding as you remember. I was busy trying to figure out which part is ok to feed and which isn't. It was so overwhelming and made me nervous but not now.I feel more comfortable than before.

I started with leg quarter and then chicken breast with rib for 1 st week of my dog feeding but after the week,I got whole chicken and did waht you all recomended and it worked fine.

I don't feed back/wing separately but yes,yours seem bit like mine.

Tomorrow for example will be Elk heart,Duck portion,chicken liver and Fish oil.

Similar:-P

Some days be like Beef steak,chicken gizzard, pork rib..

It worked fine for me and, freezer is crowded and no space for other animal's organ to be placed so,it is possiblethat after I finish up gizzard then,I may switch to other animal's liver instead not re-stock gizzard.It may take a while...

By the way,what does "snicker" mean??

All these 3 months I be here on list,you been so informative and I learnt so much from you.

I hope I keep learning from you and everybody and,I like to help others too when I can.

I really think this list really is a big help...and people are so kind. I am enjoying this list so much.

let's keep learning 1 at a time,everybody:-P

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (22)
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5c. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> By the way,what does "snicker" mean??
*****
To me it means a little giggle between friends, a private "hee hee"
behind one's hand maybe. A maybe a nudge in the with an elbow. Or
maybe even--from Monty Python--wink, wink, nudge nudge.

Chris

Messages in this topic (22)
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6a. starting the raw diet
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi there, everyone~
I have been reading about the raw food diet and have decided to start
my dogs on it. I bought some chicken legs and quarters (cuz I heard
that is what ya start them on) but don't know how much to start
feeding my dogs.
I have a 22 lb. pug, a 35 lb. bull terrier and a 160 lb great dane. I
bought 10 lbs to start out with.......can someone help me...
My pug (Louie) has a bad hair loss thing going on (starting to look
like a chinese crested) and I am hoping putting him on this will help
alleviate this problem.
Thanks everyone,
Mandy

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: starting the raw diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mandy,

Start them out with approximately 2-3% of their ideal adult weight per day.
Feed chicken for a week or so until they have adjusted, then slowly begin
adding in other protein sources and organs. Pretty simple! :) Meanwhile,
read, read, read!!

You might want to pick up a few whole chickens...your Dane can easily eat
half if you are feeding two meals, whole if one.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@chartermi.net>

I have been reading about the raw food diet and have decided to start
my dogs on it. I bought some chicken legs and quarters (cuz I heard
that is what ya start them on) but don't know how much to start
feeding my dogs.
I have a 22 lb. pug, a 35 lb. bull terrier and a 160 lb great dane. I
bought 10 lbs to start out with.......can someone help me...
My pug (Louie) has a bad hair loss thing going on (starting to look
like a chinese crested) and I am hoping putting him on this will help
alleviate this problem.

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy raw
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

I am a vegetarian who wants to start feeding my 6 month old puppy with
type 1 insulin dependant diabetes and Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency
the RAW diet. I just wanted to know if there are any other vegetarians
out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw meat. The
thought of it makes me sick but I think this diet would be beneficial
for my puppy with all her health problems.
I have a few questions, where do you guys find organic meat [as I would
never feed her anything but organic meat because I think all the
regular meat out there would make her worse with all the hormones and
diseases] How much do you buy at one time, where do you feed your dogs
as raw meat has got to be messy.
Sorry if I sound ignorant but I am new at this:)

Rhonda

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi Rhonda,

I think there are quite a few of us vegetarians feeding raw meat to
our dogs. You will get more comfortable with it as you go along.
Just start with what you can handle and go from there. If you need
to wear latex gloves, that might help. Maybe you can try to remember
this is nature and you're doing the best for your dog by feeding this
way.

Organic meat may be slightly better than non-organic, but it's
probably not worth too much extra money, imo. It's often still fed
inappropriately (grain-fed). If/when you can afford it, try to find
grass-fed beef/lamb/goat, and more appropriately fed
chicken/turkey/pork. You can find grass-fed meats direct from
farmers or hunters, at farmers' markets, through local buying groups
(where are you located?), at some Asian markets (they usually have
goat, and I think it's usually grass-fed), or (expensive) at some
health food stores.

HOWEVER...you will be doing GREAT to just get your girl on any raw
meat! You can go to any old store and get a couple chickens
(not "enhanced" or injected with anything--read the fine print on the
label) and feed them and feel good! Then keep reading the list and
gradually move onto other sources.

Start with 2-3% of ideal adult body weight per day and adjust as
necessary. Search the archives for info on feeding puppies. And
also for info on diabetes and EPI. Poor girl... Please let us know
how things go and how she improves!

I buy through our local buying co-op and at grocery stores (including
Asian markets). I have a full freezer right now, but started with
small quantities as I was learning.

You can feed anywhere--I feed on a towel in the living room. Others
do vinyl shower curtains, bath mats, blankets, outside on the
patio/in the yard, in crates, or just on the kitchen floor.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Rhonda!
I just want to say, "Yay to you for coming over to the Raw
Side!" and wanting to do the best for your pup and add a bit of my .02
cents to Laurie's great post (I'm definitely a meatatarian) by saying
that you could use double gloves, or the heavier, longer cuffed,
reusable ones sold as dishwashing gloves when handling raw until you
get used to it.

There are some people on this list who are very knowledgeable about
feeding dogs with EPI and diabetes, they'll chime in with some solid
advice, I'm sure.

How did your pup get diagnosed with such diseases at such a young age?
If I'm not mistaken, these are diseases that usually manifest in a dog
when they are older.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I think there are quite a few of us vegetarians feeding raw meat to
> our dogs. You will get more comfortable with it as you go along.
> Just start with what you can handle and go from there. If you need
> to wear latex gloves, that might help. Maybe you can try to remember
> this is nature and you're doing the best for your dog by feeding this
> way.
>
> Organic meat may be slightly better than non-organic, but it's
> probably not worth too much extra money, imo. It's often still fed
> inappropriately (grain-fed). If/when you can afford it, try to find
> grass-fed beef/lamb/goat, and more appropriately fed
> chicken/turkey/pork. You can find grass-fed meats direct from
> farmers or hunters, at farmers' markets, through local buying groups
> (where are you located?), at some Asian markets (they usually have
> goat, and I think it's usually grass-fed), or (expensive) at some
> health food stores.
<snip>
> You can feed anywhere--I feed on a towel in the living room. Others
> do vinyl shower curtains, bath mats, blankets, outside on the
> patio/in the yard, in crates, or just on the kitchen floor.
>
> Laurie
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: enhanced meats (was: HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I ca
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:22 pm ((PDT))

Peg,

"Enhanced" meat is meat that has had broth or other solutions
added/injected into it. You have to read the fine print on the label.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <peggy070605@...> wrote:
I don't give them meat that's enhanced with
> anything. (I don't give them organic meat, but I personally don't add
> anything to the meat.)
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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9. Re: 10 month old dane
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi Karim,
Relax! There are lots of dane people here and much great advice to learn from about raw feeding dogs in general. I just switched two of mine ( one 12months) with no problems and better health. Have Fun, Felicia

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Frankie,

Do a search in the archives...this has been discussed frequently on the
list. Of course, a raw diet is essential with diabetes as carbohydrates are
damaging to the pancreas and allow blood sugar to spike and plummet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "doguenanny" <Dixie4911@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))

I told y'all yesterday(evening) was the first raw meal for my 4 girls
and this afternoon was the second, well they all have BAD diarrhea
which I thought would be the case. Everyon is acting very normal and
going crazy about the chicken for their meals instead of kibble. My 2
1/2 year old Dachshund actually ate raw before she came to me at 3 mos
old from my awesome breeder up in Oregon so this isn't new to her. I'm
sure she has been wondering what happened to ther GOOD stuff! LOL I
tried it a while back but it just didn't go as smoothly as y'all have
made it for us. BTW, does anyone shop at Sam's for meats? Do they
have good meats to purchase in bulk? I know for humans they actually
carry great cuts of meat for great prices. I live about an hour from
the closest Sam's but I thought I would go by there and stock up. Any
suggestions? I don't have a Costco nearby, so that is not an option.
Cori

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Cori,

Do you mean soft stools or uncontrollable watery diarrhea? Soft stools can
happen with diet change. Make sure you are not feeding too much as that
also can be a cause.

Glad to hear they are feeling good and happy with their new food! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "coriowen" <COwen98@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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12. Interesting Study of Russian Foxes
Posted by: "irwin_bird" iamentropygirl@gmail.com irwin_bird
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

I remembered the other day about a study we research way back in bio
class of Russian scientist studying the genes of "tame" foxes. They were
breeding foxes specifically for "tame doglike behavior" and one of the
things they noticed is that quickly (in a few generations) not only were
the foxes tamer and more doglike (the aim of the study) but they also
looked more like dogs.

There was more variation from the wild type in their appearance and they
had more dog like colors and shaggy fur

I thought this was interesting (and relevant) because the tame dog foxes
would still have the exact same nutritional requirments as the wild
foxes. The silver fox is closely related to the dog/wolf so it stands
to reason that changing wolf appearance/behavior was just as easy and
took place in a relatively few generations. Much faster than it would
take to affect any real change in nutritional needs

the aim of the study wasn't about what tame foxes would look like or
eat, but it is an interesting side effect

they have a website here
http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm
<http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm> and the study has
been in progress since 1959.

Lindsay

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Messages in this topic (1)
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13. First week update
Posted by: "dawn_rescue" dteuscher@tx.rr.com dawn_rescue
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

Dawn T

Messages in this topic (1)
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14.1. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:56 pm ((PDT))

***Cut into chunks, IMO, turkey legs are just the right size for stupid
> eating, even for pugs. Or maybe especially for pugs, since many pugs
> do seem to have cheerfully inflated opinions of their size and
> ability. I think chunked turkey legs would be too small and too many
> sharp edges and maybe even too hard. But it might be I'm so
accustomed to looking at meaty bones for BIG dogs that I can't properly
judge meaty bones for little dogs.******

I think I'll just have to hammer them. Some drms were really full of
meat, enough for them to have a meal but now I'm nervous so I'll hammer
them. Other pieces were small and I could whack them, too. They were
really cheap and meaty :(***

***The grocer told me it was softer than chicken but I rely on you.***

I think he was wrong but I suspect you can do better than to rely on me!
> Chris O

Oh,no, I rely on you and the rest of the board, of course. If I
listened to my grocer, I'd be at the vet's having tooth work done.

Silvina with the cheerful & inflated pugs

Messages in this topic (30)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11948

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Greetings!
From: S.R. Sudekum

2a. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
From: Denise Strother

3a. HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
From: Kathy

4a. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Andrea
4b. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
From: Tina Berry

7a. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: Yasuko herron
7b. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: Giselle
7d. Re: Chicken gizzard
From: Yasuko herron

8.1. Re: turkey legs
From: delcaste
8.2. Re: turkey legs
From: delcaste
8.3. Re: turkey legs
From: costrowski75
8.4. Re: turkey legs
From: costrowski75

9. Diabetes and Raw Feeding
From: doguenanny

10a. Re: Hey y'all!
From: delcaste
10b. Re: Hey y'all!
From: Giselle
10c. Re: Hey y'all!
From: Olga
10d. Re: Hey y'all!
From: Yasuko herron

11a. turkey wings safer?
From: Felicia Kost
11b. Re: turkey wings safer?
From: Giselle
11c. Re: turkey wings safer?
From: Olga

12a. Re: fatty meats question
From: pelirojita

13a. Should I be worried?
From: tobyfwest

Messages
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1a. Greetings!
Posted by: "S.R. Sudekum" ssudekum@centurytel.net fassue
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Hi everybody! I'm new here, and thought I'd chime in! I started feeding
my dogs raw back in 2001 & have been doing it ever since, despite
getting The Lecture from my old skool veterinarian ("YOU wouldn't eat
raw chicken, would you???"). The transformation in the dogs was so
amazing that I've been sold on it since the beginning. Self-cleaning
teeth, slick shiny coats, bright eyes, more energy and playfulness,
quicker-healing (My old Blue Heeler-X had ACL surgery & the vet was
amazed at how quickly she healed up!), better-smelling dogs & breath.
IMO, the added expense of buying the food is nothing compared to the
money I've saved in vet bills. Finally, after 5 years of this, my old
skool vet had to admit yes, the dogs WERE looking good, lol

The bulk of what I feed is chicken leg quarters with back/spine
attached, so they get lots of good muscle tissue, plus bones, plus
skin/fat, and the wonderful organ bits caught in the pelvic area, but
they also get pork ribs, pork neck bones, beef bones, fish, and whatever
happens to come along. I agree with those who say "Relax", it's not
important to get the perfect balance in every single meal. YOUR meals
probably aren't perfectly balanced either, yet you're still here. It's
what you feed over time that counts.

Last weekend I added a 7 month old Pembroke Corgi boy to the pack, and
this is the youngest dog I've ever fed raw to. He took to it immediately
and looks forward to meals (what dog doesn't!). His coat was dry and
dull, and he had the beginnings of scale forming on his new teeth
(already!)...but even this quickly the scale is gone, and I'm looking
forward to him blooming with a soft, shiny coat in a few weeks!

Really enjoying this group, looking forward to more Young Dog advice!
Thank you!

Sue, Leela (12 yr Dalmatian), BillyBob (8 yr old Pemmie) and Ebenezer (7
mo old Pemmie)

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: need help trying to figure out what to feed
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Debbi
You are making rawfeeding way to hard on you and incorrectly for
your dogs. Did you read any of the info you received when you joined
the group? If not, you should. It will answer a lot of the questions
you asked and some you haven't yet. Until you get a chance to read
it: Get rid of your grinder, your dogs are well equipped to eat for
themselves and will derive dental and physicall benefits from eating
chunks of food. Get rid of the vegetables, dogs are carnivores who
eat animals that eat plants. The only supplement you need to feed a
healthy dog with no endocrine issues is salmon oil or fish body oil.
You don't need to feed these oils if you are feeding plenty of grass
fed animals. I'm jealous if you are able to BTW. Change the older
dogs over too. Just get a few whole chickens, unenhanced if
possible, whack them into feeding size pieces and give them to the
dogs. 2-3% of the dogs appropriate adult weight for starters and
adjust as needed for each dog. A 50 lb dog could start at 2% which
is 1lb a day or about a quarter of a chicken. So unless your dogs
are or will a good bit above or below 50lbs, 1 good sized chicken a
day, should feed all of your dogs to start. Go back and look at the
websites provided on the home page for this group and check out the
archives. You'll be glad you did. Denise

I'm new to this group my name is Debbi and I have 4 standard poodles.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. HUGE PROBLEM!!! I need all of the help I can get!!!
Posted by: "Kathy" xanadu8@insightbb.com aresblue2000
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:48 am ((PDT))

I would get them tested for UTI and go from there. Is your male intact or neutered? At 7 months he is an adolescent, possibly becoming sexually mature, and he may be a bit jealous of his new little sister. I also agree with whoever said to consider the extra water content of raw food. They may need to pee more often. It would be nice if it were a simple medical issue instead of a behavioral one, but I can't see how it could be the diet.
Good luck!
Kathy L.

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Messages in this topic (17)
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4a. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

I'm not sure if the mucous is a result of the treats, maybe Palette
just ate a particularly boney part of the duck during one meal. On
the occasions that my pups get too many treats they end up with loose
stool, not usually with mucous. After the transition period I only
see mucous in the pup's stool after they've eaten a lot of bone. In
either event, you're right, its nothing to worry about.

FWIW, there are some times that I don't allow people to give my boys
treats. In order to not offend them I tell a white lie and say that
they are highly allergic to many grains, so thank you but no treats
for them. But since treats are just treats, I let friends and family
treat as they please. After all, my boys are rediculously cute, how
could you not want to give them food?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> she got bit softer poo with some moucous in it although it has all
> shaped.
> I am wondering if this because my neighbor gave too much treats
to my dog..

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Mucousy poop;Is this from too much treats??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Palette went to 1 more poo time after last time poo. This time,the poo was some nudget with yellowish liquid and finish with clear juice a second coming out from her butt.

She used to be even loose poo,just going 1 poo a day or two but,3 time a day and 2 out of 3 poo are like this seems ..make me think if she is diarrhea even though she has no accident in the house.

1st Duck meal was with Duck neck(I fed it as first introductory from inside the bird because it has no fat on it so,easy on her I thoght),and her poo last evening on walk was good one.

I was thinking too much treats in one time was causing this but I am sort of doubting if the portion that I fed (Duck piece;under the wing to up of the leg;more like breast and back rib area) had more than enough fat than she could handle..

After the good poo yestreday,she had neighbors treats,Duck I fed,and Elk heart,Beef liver+kidney,Fish oil.

I may try fat off and see how she does.

Definitely something wrong.. because potty she went 8am,10:30am and 3rd one was 12:30pm. 8am was ok poo,and 10:30am was firmed poo with mucous wrapped and 3rd one was the one finish with clear juice from butt..

yassy

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Check out fun summer activities for kids.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
NPs, and YQW!
Let us know how you and the kitty boys get on!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Sarah!
> > Source for whole prey for small carnivores;
> > http://www.livefoods.co.uk/index.php?cPath=24
> > TC
> > Giselle
> > with Bea in new Jersey
> >
>
> Hi Giselle, thanks SO MUCH for taking the time and attention to
answer my many questions,
> and I'll check this link out asap!
>
> Sarah

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:40 am ((PDT))

"Well, deer hunting season has begun again here in SC and we brought home
our first deer tonight. I have the lungs, liver, heart, kidneys, brain,
eyes, shoulders, neck w/trachea, and the carcass "

Sounds like lot of organs, heart is a muscle so feed as much as you want of
htat. The shoulders/neck is there a lot of meat on them? and the carcass?

You want to average 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs approximately, doesn't
have to be exact or every meal, just over time.

"Also I now have my first rawfed litter here. Is there anything I should NOT
fed her while she's nursing?" No, just follow the above statement.

"When should I offer meat to the babies?"

When they start stealing moms dinner around 4 weeks LOL at 4 weeks mine
played with chicken wings but didn't eat much of them. But I started them
on ground heart and goats milk for a week, then on to chicken breasts at
around 4-4 1/2 weeks (maybe 5) but anyway, you can figure it out with
experimenting with chicken wings, but the ground stuff I started at 4 weeks.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

Hi.I was reading up old list post and I found this interesting explanation of chicken gizzard.It is sort of muscle bag in bird and It is very interesting that the rock the chicken ate becomes sort of teeth role in our understanding and grind up things the birds ate.

Now,I am feeding chicken gizzard 1 in a week,but i wassort of wondering if it has any nutritious benefit to feed it other than my dog likes it.

Do you all stock up your freezer with gizzard too like other meats you stock up?

yassy

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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7b. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:37 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> Now,I am feeding chicken gizzard 1 in a week,but i wassort of
wondering if it has any nutritious benefit to feed it other than my dog
likes it.
*****
Gizzards are no more or less special than any other muscle meat you
might feed. They certainly do not need to limited to one meal a week!
That is to say, you can feed them as often as you come upon them
whether that's frequently or infrequently.

> Do you all stock up your freezer with gizzard too like other meats
you stock up?
*****
Havens no! Gizzards come with whole chickens and if I don't give the
gizzard to the cat one of the dogs gets it. When there are no
gizzards, we go without.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (19)
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7c. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Yassy!
I buy and feed chicken gizzards and hearts as meaty meat to
sometimes add to stuff like whole pork neck bones. They are both cheap
for me to buy, so I just add them together.
They are another body part that adds variety to the choices available
to me.

You can go to this website: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
to check on the protein, fat and other nutrients in meat - it lists
bone as refuse, and also some parts as trim that people would normally
not eat, too, so allow for that. And, it lists water content, too.

listings for chicken gizzards, heart, breast (no skin), dark meat (no
skin), and liver for comparison;
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

It also has listings for the 'usual' meats fed, beef, pork, lamb,
fish, but also for rabbit, venison, and also more exotic meats, like
ostrich, emu, bison and beefalo.
TC
Giselle

> Hi.I was reading up old list post and I found this interesting
explanation of chicken gizzard.It is sort of muscle bag in bird and It
is very interesting that the rock the chicken ate becomes sort of
teeth role in our understanding and grind up things the birds ate.
>
> Now, I am feeding chicken gizzard 1 in a week, but I was sort of
wondering if it has any nutritious benefit to feed it other than my
dog likes it.
>
> Do you all stock up your freezer with gizzard too like other meats
you stock up?
>
> yassy

Messages in this topic (19)
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7d. Re: Chicken gizzard
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:57 pm ((PDT))

>Gizzards are no more or less special than any other muscle meat you might feed. They >certainly do not need to limited to one meal a week!

Hi,Chris. Yes,I know. It is just that I am roatating among chicken gizzard,Turky Gizzard,Beef liver+kidney,Pork liver+kidney etc..so,it ends up 1 in aweek.That is all.

Since I feed it along with hunk of meat like say..Beef steak with gizzard as muscle meat meal etc.., some days are without organs.

I guess after I finish up the bag of gizzard,I think I don't buy the bagful..

thanks

yassy

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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8.1. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:17 pm ((PDT))

I think a drum would be a challenging meal, which is a good thing. If
the dog--any dog--cannot or will not eat the bone, that's fine. Often
the joints will be gnawed off; this is also dandy. If you aren't
comfortable with the leg bone, collect it up after your dog has had his
way with the skin and meat.
> Chris O

Hi Chris, I recently bought some turkey drums but they were cut up in
big cheap chunks ;). I have pugs and thought I could feed the turkey
drums with hearts with livers. They are pretty meaty. Should I whack
the bone or is turkey bone also soft like chicken? The grocer told me
it was softer than chicken but I rely on you.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (29)
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8.2. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:17 pm ((PDT))

> > I can't find turkey necks anywhere any more. Are raw turkey legs
> and wings okay to feed 15 lb dogs or are they too bony for the small
> guys?
> >
> Sure, feed them. I just ordered a case of turkey necks yesterday to
> be picked up Thursday.

And would you feed them with extra turkey/chicken meat; they seem so
bony.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (29)
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8.3. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> I recently bought some turkey drums but they were cut up in
> big cheap chunks ;). I have pugs and thought I could feed the turkey
> drums with hearts with livers. They are pretty meaty. Should I whack
> the bone or is turkey bone also soft like chicken?
*****
Turkeys are older than chickens; their bones are not as soft. Turkey
leg bones are often daunting to beginning raw feeders but--whole--a leg
really does offer a nifty bit of struggle and tangle even if the bone,
once naked, is taken away.

Cut into chunks, IMO, turkey legs are just the right size for stupid
eating, even for pugs. Or maybe especially for pugs, since many pugs
do seem to have cheerfully inflated opinions of their size and
ability. I think chunked turkey legs would be too small and too many
sharp edges and maybe even too hard.

But it might be I'm so accustomed to looking at meaty bones for BIG
dogs that I can't properly judge meaty bones for little dogs.

The grocer told me
> it was softer than chicken but I rely on you.
*****
I think he was wrong but I suspect you can do better than to rely on me!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (29)
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8.4. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> And would you feed them with extra turkey/chicken meat; they seem so
> bony.
>
*****
They're okay. Not brilliant but no worse than chicken legs. However,
it's not how much bone is there but how much of the bone your dogs
actually eat. A turkey leg from which all the meat is eaten but only
the knobby bone ends is actually a useful meat/bone combination.

Also remember that not every meal must be a harmonious union of meat
and bone. Sometimes a cacophony of meat or bone is just the ticket.
But if you think there's too much bone there, collect it up when your
dogs have had "enough".
Chris O

Messages in this topic (29)
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9. Diabetes and Raw Feeding
Posted by: "doguenanny" Dixie4911@aol.com doguenanny
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

A friend of mine's lab was recently diagnosed with diabetes (she said
it's the insulin dependent type). I have always talked to her about
feeding raw, but she never thought about switching. Until now. I told
her it would be the best thing she could do for her dog, especially
now. I told her I'd try to find some information to send her, but I
haven't found anything yet that talks about how a raw diet can be
beneficial to dogs with diabetes. She's the type of person who will
want to see specifics (or something close to specifics)......can anyone
out there point me in the right direction, or does anyone out there
have a dog with diabetes on raw?

Thanks,

Frankie

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Dawn!
> YQW!
> Its great to hear how people and their critters are doing.
> btw, cut out the chop bones and toss them out.
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey

Hi to everyone I'm new, too with a question for Giselle. I often
overlook good buys on pork chops because I have gulpers and the bones
are so cut and sharp. What do you think if I leave the bone but get my
trusty hammer and work on 'em.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Silvina!
I dunno. ; )
I would hesitate to say yes, only because whacking chicken bones works
because chicken bones are pretty soft to begin with. I would hesitate
about whacking turkey bones for example, too.

Remember, you only need 10% bone in a dog's total diet - that's pretty
easy to do, even for the little guys, especially if you feed chicken.
: )

Boneless meals should form a regular, and pretty large part of your
dog's diet.

If the $$ deal of the pork chops would outweigh the offset of cutting
out the bones and tossing them, I'd say, get 'em! Otherwise, probably no.

Could you get the meat manager to allow you to get an order of
'special' thick cut chops, say, 3-4 chops together? That might be a
better way to go. The market I use has whole and half bone in loin
( link here with pictorial;
http://www.askthemeatman.com/hog_cuts_interactive_chart.htm ) that
they cut to order. I've often thought about getting them, but they're
a bit over my budget for pork, usually about $1.49-1.69 cents a pound.
I would probably feed them, if they were a bit cheaper. But my girl
chews her food very carefully and thoroughly, considering her breed
and size.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New jersey

> Hi to everyone I'm new, too with a question for Giselle. I often
> overlook good buys on pork chops because I have gulpers and the bones
> are so cut and sharp. What do you think if I leave the bone but get my
> trusty hammer and work on 'em.
>
> Silvina
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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10c. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> I often
> overlook good buys on pork chops because I have gulpers and the bones
> are so cut and sharp.

Can you get boneless pork chops? Around here, when they go on sale
they usually have bone-in and boneless chops to choose from. Alas,
I've never bought either, because they're still pretty expensive even
at sale price. Even the boneless chops will probably get swallowed in
one gulp though, so I would suggest looking for bigger porky parts.

Olga

Messages in this topic (7)
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10d. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

>I would hesitate about whacking turkey bones for example, too.

Hi.I heard that Joyce Chen scissor (red handle or white handle,cost about 20 dollars atamazon.com) works great and I got them.

I just used for Cornish Hen and Duck.Not on Turkey because I already did cut-up before I get it but the scissor worked quite well at least on cornish hen and Duck.

Just a thought .You may be can try with this scissor.

since I did not use on Turkey so,I cannot say it works but,I hear it works great on almost anything.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. turkey wings safer?
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone,
I was wondering if turkey wings would be a little safer than the legs?The bone seems more easily ediable for my dogs, although less meaty perhaps. They do fine with both, but I know of the turkey bone concerns of some. The also provide a more challenging meal with the folds and such of the wing shape. Just curious! Thanks Felicia

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Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: turkey wings safer?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Felicia!
It depends on your dog's size and eating habits.

Some dogs will just try to choke anything of a particular size down,
regardless of the shape, or their ability to do so.

A wing, or leg still attached to the turkey, now, thats a horse of a
different color! : )

I would not buy turkey wings, or necks or separate parts if possible;
but take advantage of sales on whole turkeys and allow my dogs to eat
on the whole, or half and decide which bones are edible or not.

Remember, your dogs only need 10% of their total diet to be bone. That
means regularly feeding boneless meals and sometimes feeding body
parts with bones that aren't going to be entirely consumed by the dog.
That's OK. They get the physical, mental and dental exercise they need
by figuring out how to shear meat and connective tissue from those
bones and by nibbling the gristle and softer bone ends. Just toss out
the rest.

If your dog eats all the bone, fine. If he eats some of it, fine. If
he eats all of it, fine. If he horks some bone bits back up, or bits
come out the other end, he probably got too much bone in that meal.
You always have the option of taking the bone from the dog when you
think he has had enough.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello everyone,
> I was wondering if turkey wings would be a little safer than the
legs? The bone seems more easily edible for my dogs, although less
meaty perhaps. They do fine with both, but I know of the turkey bone
concerns of some. The also provide a more challenging meal with the
folds and such of the wing shape. Just curious! Thanks Felicia
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: turkey wings safer?
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:02 pm ((PDT))

My dogs (40 and 75 lbs) have eaten both turkey wings and drums. If
you plan to feed the wings I would be adding gobs of boneless meat to
it. That was the worst case of constipation my dogs ever had!

Nowadays I usually skip the wings and go for the drums. I can feed
them on their own, followed by a meaty meal (instead of having to add
meat to that meal) to balance things out. Plus the drums seem to go
on sale here rarely, whereas the turkey wings never do - I don't know
why, are people actually making wings with those huge turkey wings???

Actually I've gotten whole turkeys with missing wings, so perhaps
there is a turkey wing theft going on, hmm? <end offtopic>

Olga

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: fatty meats question
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:05 pm ((PDT))

Thank you too all who posted.

I'm going to feed big, one day on, one day off. Up the exercise and
add some leaner cuts to the diet and remove large chunks of fat, but
not fat altogether.

I'm going to wait on the thyroid panel for a little while to see if
the above works, as my dog's weight spiked when my son started solid
food (it was just too easy to let the dog clean up after the kid, but
I didn't cut the dog's regular meals in response, and since the humans
in the household are vegetarians he was not eating appropriate food
anyways...lesson learned...), so the cause appears to be unregulated
overeating for a significant period.

Kerry (and Diego too!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Have your vet draw blood and do a full thyroid panel and send it to:
> Dr Jean Dodds for evaluation
> http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/diagnostic_testing.htm
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
> > Mmmkay, those are both good starts -- but so is a thyroid workup.
> > Search through the archives about full-panel thyroid testing (or
> > maybe somebody will repost the info) -- your dog may have a good
> > reason why he's not losing weight.
> <snip>
> > Good luck & please keep us posted --
> >
> > -- sandy & griffin (looking very trim lately, though his mom isn't)
> >
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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13a. Should I be worried?
Posted by: "tobyfwest" tobyfwest@cox.net tobyfwest
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

One of my dogs has had bloody diarrhea and now just blood with little
diarrhea mixed in. Bright red blood. The last meals he's had have
been chicken drumsticks and pork necks. I haven't fed him since last
night (he had this going on before I fed him but didn't realize it).
He's drinking water and running around like normal. This is a 35lb
border collie. He's had this happen before but I don't think it was
this long and this bloody.

Should I be worried yet?

Thanks,
Carolyn

Messages in this topic (11)
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