Feed Pets Raw Food: Jan 1, 2008

Tuesday, January 1, 2008

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12446

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: worms
From: Ania Tysarczyk
1.2. Re: worms
From: bluegracepwd
1.3. worms
From: h h
1.4. Re: worms
From: homesforallpets
1.5. Re: worms
From: Barb
1.6. Re: worms
From: cypressbunny

2a. Re: new whippet not hungry
From: christinegenova

3a. Re: Funny smell - bloodlike?
From: Ania Tysarczyk
3b. Re: Funny smell - bloodlike?
From: katkellm

4a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: eadible bones in pork
From: Yasuko herron
5b. Re: eadible bones in pork
From: Caren OConnor

6a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: Ania Tysarczyk
6b. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: Heather

7a. Re: Gullet
From: Yasuko herron
7b. Re: Gullet
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Wild game Question
From: chriswiberg
8b. Re: Wild game Question
From: katkellm

9a. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Giselle

10. Ground turkey from 2003...still okay?
From: steph.sorensen

11a. Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I have ma
From: w453angel2000
11b. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
From: Sandee Lee
11c. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
From: Chia

12. Caught some good prices!
From: homesforallpets

13. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I...
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
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1.1. Re: worms
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:29 pm ((PST))

Just Curious. What type of worm is that? Was it tapeworm from eating
the fleas on the rabbit?

Ania

Messages in this topic (47)
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1.2. Re: worms
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:31 pm ((PST))

goodness me. Did your vet convince you that your dogs got worms from
rabbits? How was that assessment made?

And the special worms that rabbits have are?

Sounds to me like you've been dudded more than anything else, but I'm
all ears in the hope of a learning opportunity.

- Jane

Messages in this topic (47)
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1.3. worms
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:07 pm ((PST))

I'm still researching. ..Yes, still....I was brought up with the idea if
a dog was feed raw food or raw bones they could get worms??? Can this
happen from feeding some raw foods? How can I prevent it from
happening?? What foods to avoid that are known to cause worms? What'll
I do if it does???

~~~~~~~~~~~
If your dog catches a rabbit that has worms and eats it, the dog could get worms. So, if you are worried about worms, don't let your dog catch, kill, and eat rabbits, squirrels, etc.

If you feed your dog meat you bought from a grocer, butcher, etc., that meat will not have worms.

If you wish to feed wild game to your dog, freeze it solid for a couple of weeks and that will kill off any parasites that may be in the meat. Same thing if you feed "fresh, never frozen" salmon from the Pacific Northwest.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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Messages in this topic (47)
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1.4. Re: worms
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:12 pm ((PST))

I am sorry that happened to you did you let the supplier know about
it? Did you get them from a breeder? A breeder should be told about
these things so he or she can treat her herd to keep it from happening
again. As a rabbit breeder myself I try hard to be sure my animals
are healthy. If I sold someone fryers to feed their pets I would hope
they'd let me know about that happening. It effects not just your
dogs but our breeding stock.

Kathy in MO

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DENISE HARMON" <Harmonydobes1@...>
wrote:
>
> My dogs got worms from eating Rabbits. It was very expensive to
deworm them because of the specific worm the rabbits carry. I will
not feed WHOLE rabbits again. I do feed them skinned and gutted
rabbits and have never had another problem. This case is not just
random. I can state cases where many many dogs were infected with
this worm from whole rabbits. I choose to be very careful when it
comes to rabbits.
>
> Dee Harmon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (47)
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1.5. Re: worms
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:49 pm ((PST))

My last litter of raw fed/vacc. free pups had roundworms! Big healthy
(but dead) roundworms! Good old diatomaceous earth to their rescue!
Dead worms.They pooped out dead worms after a week or so on DE!All
adults were treated too,no worms in them!Not related to food at all!
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill"
<carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gaye Amick"
> <northernskychar@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm still researching...Yes, still....I was brought up with the
> > idea if a dog was feed raw food or raw bones they could
> > get worms???
>
> Any animal including humans CAN get worms. Doesn't mean they do.
> My present dogs have never had worms and my other dogs never had
> worms after switching them to raw.
>
> > Can this happen from feeding some raw foods?
>
> I suppose it can but I can't give you an incidence that it has.
>

Messages in this topic (47)
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1.6. Re: worms
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:49 pm ((PST))

*** Wild rabbits may carry Taenia pisiformis, a species of tapeworm.
Domestic rabbits rarely have this parasite because they are usually
caged and not exposed to infectious dog poop. The tapeworm rarely
causes any problems for the dog, but effective wormers are cheap and
readily available over the counter. I have no idea why it was expensive
to treat your dog.

> I choose to be very careful when it comes to rabbits.

*** That makes sense with wild rabbits, which I would freeze before
feeding, but for domestic rabbits, I would choose another supplier if I
got ones infected with Taenia pisiformis.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (47)
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2a. Re: new whippet not hungry
Posted by: "christinegenova" geauxgirl@sbcglobal.net christinegenova
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:29 pm ((PST))

Hi Laurie,

Thanks for your response. She's acting fine -- playful and happy. She had a little bit of it
today (not too much), and I have resorted to kibble to supplement. She ate some of that
too, but also a small portion. I would like to pick up something more tantalizing. Any
suggestions?

Christine

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Christine,
>
> How old is your pup? Is she acting normal other than not very hungry?
> She could be full from yesterday, or she may have liked the cooked
> goose (stronger smell & flavor than raw chicken) and is hoping holding
> out for more of that might work.
>
> Laurie
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "christinegenova" <geauxgirl@>
> wrote:
>
> Gave her the chicken, a couple of sniffs and she
> > just walked away.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Funny smell - bloodlike?
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:29 pm ((PST))

At 5 months old, is the puppy teething? There is definately a strong
smell of blood that comes from a puppys mouth when they teeth.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "eventer2001" <eventer2001@...>
wrote:
Lately we had instances of smelling
> something coming from the pup... the paramedic hubby says it smells a
> bit like blood. > Thanks tons!
> Tammy
> & Reilly
>
> Dayton, Ohio
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Funny smell - bloodlike?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "eventer2001" <eventer2001@...> wrote:
> The 5 month old newf has been eating raw since I got him just over 2
> months ago. I've been introducing new meats lately -- picked up some
> pork rib ends at the market on Saturday on sale, some turkey wings at
> the store on their "almost dead" sale shelf. Mostly though, he gets
> ground beef and chicken.

Hi Tammy,
I don't know for sure if this is the problem, but my thought
would be that your diet is too bone heavy. Wings are not very meaty
and pork rib ends can be sorta on the skimpy side, too, when it comes
to meat. Chicken is also a bone heavy meal. If his system got to much
bone down there and couldn't get it digested enough to come out the
bottom end in a timely manner, his system did the next best thing
which is get it out of there by bringing it up. The smell could be
that acidic smell you get from digestive juice vomit-not sure how to
describe it any better than that. Just a maybe, KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:29 pm ((PST))

>Is it better to remove the whites & feed only the yolks as i've read
that the biotin in whites is a problem for dogs.

this issue comes up frequently when there is Egg topic as well,so,if you wanted to read more on detail,search in the past posts about this too.

But that being said, feeding york and white together is totaly ok. to causedeficiency thing,I think people needs to feed tonz tonz of Egg to dogs.

as long as dog can torelate and if your dogs were not on "loose weight" plan,I think you are ok to feed as many as you want.

and,you can feed shell to dog if you like. I don't give shell though because she gets calcium from bone in diet. To give shell or not to give shell is up to owners.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: eadible bones in pork
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:41 pm ((PST))

>what are eadible bones in pork ?

My corgi gets Pork rib ,Pork Neck as bone from Pork.

as rec bone,she gets Pork feet occasionary.
I do not think pork has wreck bone like cow bone.I may wrong but...

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: eadible bones in pork
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:07 pm ((PST))

My husband found Boston Butts on sale for .99/lb. and bought two. I removed the meat from the Butts and had a couple of larger bones with some meat attached. I gave the bones to my youngest Cavaliers, 16 months and 5 months respectively, and they were kept busy for quite a while stripping them free of the meat and getting some jaw exercise at the same time.
Once they were tired and could chew no more, I put the bones in the trash. With the bone I feed as part of my daily meal(s), I saw no need for the older ones to consume what the little ones left behind.
As a meal, I sometimes feed pork ribs. I've never had any problems with feeding these bones.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
>what are eadible bones in pork ?

My corgi gets Pork rib ,Pork Neck as bone from Pork.

as rec bone,she gets Pork feet occasionary.
I do not think pork has wreck bone like cow bone.I may wrong but...

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:41 pm ((PST))

Hi,

I have snakes and bguy rodents frozen in bulk like that. Be very
careful to check what they feed their rodents. Some of the cheaper
places feed cheap dog food with all the chemicals dyes etc..in it to
their rodents to cut costs and the nutritional value and gut contents
of the rodents reflect that.

I have never been able to bring myself to feed them to my dogs. They
are too stinky and gross to me. And since my dogs regularly catch
rodents (I live in the suburbs), I worry that they would eat what they
catch and they could potentially catch rodents poisened by the
neighbors. I regularly feed whole quail though.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...>
wrote:
>
> I visited rodentpro.com. They have the BEST prices. It's a snake
feed place and they also
> stock whole carcasess of guinea pigs,rabbits,quail,and chicks. Will
my dog be getting
> everything he needs from those whole prey animals only?
>
> asked by Jordan Spiva
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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6b. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 6:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
"Another concern (Casey and I were just discussing this issue
yesterday, no fooling!) is the quality of product. These critters,
produced as they are in huge volumes, are fed formulized diets that
are created to be "nutritionally complete and balanced"--just as dog
food is--with strict economies that definitely depend on dubious
ingredients. Paying dearly for critters fed foodlike substances may
be a higher price than the concept is worth, especially if your
intention is to rely completely on factory livestock."

I see no difference in feeding animals fed a "formulated diet" that
will be fed whole or feeding grains to livestock. Neither
are "natural" foods for either species.

"Also keep in mind that these animals are usually raised to
standards that best nourish reptiles, not your dog. I seriously
doubt the mice are being fed food that's species appropriate for
mice. Which means you may feed whole prey but your dog's
nutritional needs may not be met."

There is no way to feed a mouse/rat/guinea pig/etc a special diet to
meet the needs of a reptile. They are fed lab blocks, pretty much a
vitamin/mineral mix and grains such as corn (in low quality blocks),
wheat, soy, possibly oats, all compressed together in a convenient
square shape. Lab blocks are formulated to be the easiest way to
provide the animal with all the nutrients it needs.. so in turn when
the animal itself is healthy, THAT is what makes it nutritonal for
the animal eating it, regardless if it's a snake, lizard, dog or
cat. It would be great to be able to feed a mouse or rat the way it
is supposed to eat in the wild, unfortunately those figures have not
been tested yet. Very, very few people (as in 2) in the 6000 or so
on a rodent forum I visit feed a whole foods/natural diet to their
rats/mice and must still supplement with blocks, children's vitamins
or organic dog food a few times a week. It is very difficult. I have
tried and failed. All my animals lost weight on it.. it's ALOT of
work and trying to feed something each day to cover this and that
nutrient is hard when a rat's stomach is only about as big as your
thumb from the tip to first joint. It's not as easy as feeding a
carnivore whose food contains all essential nutrients vs feeding
plant foods that each have certain vitamins and minerals that others
don't.

Heather

Messages in this topic (9)
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7a. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:07 pm ((PST))

>Even butterflied (no easy task) they are precariously close to being "oh I can swallow this" size.

Hi,Chris.Thank you for your response.The one that I ordered is looked at here

http://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?products_id=178

You can see the pictures,but i do not think it is batterflied on this one. I guess wait andsee thing as for size. I asked Tracy to ship next week,so,I know for sure waht it is look like next week.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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7b. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:07 pm ((PST))

>the ones we get from greentripe.com usually are about the size of a large man's fist up to about the size of a softball,

Hi,Catherine.Thanksfor great description on size-wise.Since I don't get it from site you got it from,sizse may bedifferent but if it werefooitball size,my corgi can probably ok forsize-wise.I have to wait and see.

I try to give cartilige in meal now and then,because she has limping history and after switching to raw,she does not need glucosamin tablet anymore andrun like a wind but like to give natural source of glucosamin,which is mostly from catilidge and,I was interested in gullet as well.

What kinds of dogs do you have? If same size to my corgi can crush catilidge without any prob,she probably has no prob eating it but I wanted to see how hard/soft the cartilidge is.

But I really envy you being in CA wheretripe.com is located at... I wait til I get more freezer space and if i could make space for it andif thetime was still cold month,then,I could try ordering tripe from the tripe.com,but shiopping fee is little high to VA... Wish I lived closer to CA..

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Wild game Question
Posted by: "chriswiberg" christinewiberg@hotmail.com chriswiberg
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:07 pm ((PST))

Hey all

I have been a lurker for months now and have learned so much reading
these posts. I have a 9 month old Portuguese Water Dog. I live in
Calgary Canada.

In November I scored huge form a butcher who does wild game in
hunting season. I have ½ a full of elk moose ribs with back attached.
I have no idea if they have been tested for CWD as well this last
season was a horrid year for ticks ( I lost a moose to it, the meat
was unusable (lime disease).

What I am getting at I don't want to put My little guy in any
danger is this stuff safe to eat, no bigie if it is not I'll jut
pitch it. He just loves wild game. And does not itch on it.

The BF got a deer and gave me a whole leg with fur, are deer leg
bones too big for him to eat?? Are the hooves ok to feed I have ½ a
garbage bag of them? Are moose ribs too hard to eat??

I got a rabbit (fur on) form my buying group (calgaryraw.com (if
anyone in Alberta was looking for a buyers group)) they get the
rabbits from the same suppliers as the Calgary zoo is there anything
I have to worry about them. I was always raised that Rabbits are
dirty will make you sick, so if you eat them you have to boil them.
I know it's not true but I still have that stuck in my head and
wanted to double check.

PS I did check in the archives but wanted to be sure there was not
some type of rationalistic issue with the wild game.

Thanks so much for the help, And I hope that you all have a wonderful
New Year.

Christine and Morgan (PWD)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Wild game Question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chriswiberg" <christinewiberg@...>
wrote:
>> I have no idea if they have been tested for CWD as well this last
> season was a horrid year for ticks

Hi Christine,
There is no evidence that CWD is transferable to dogs. There have
been no reports of wolves catching the disease either. So, i would
feed it without hesitation. I feed deer almost exclusively during
hunting season in Illinois and try to keep some in the freezer so i
can feed some throughout the year.

> The BF got a deer and gave me a whole leg with fur, are deer leg
> bones too big for him to eat?? Are the hooves ok to feed I have ½ a
> garbage bag of them?

For my dogs, 40 to 75lbs. the lower leg bone and the hoof are
completely edible. I remove the shoulder bone when it is stripped of
meat because they don't seem to make much progress on it after the
meat is gone. The hooves are a good keep em busy chew treat thing,
but aren't something to feed as a meal or take away food from the meal.

>I was always raised that Rabbits are
> dirty will make you sick, so if you eat them you have to boil them.
> I know it's not true but I still have that stuck in my head and
> wanted to double check.

Rabbits are fine to feed raw. If you are worried about parasites if
they are hunted/caught in the wild, you can freeze them for a couple
of weeks before feeding. KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:19 pm ((PST))

Hi, Amanda!
Because of the volume of posts to the list, and its
narrower stated interest, any topic that asks for solutions that don't
involve raw feeding, or go Off Topic - gets directed to a sister list;
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4Ld6R4e4ehefahDf9wslCKNAFJoWwgTAgi6ek4Fc2qj8GUlu10ri9Gg0OT5NzRONbPAYTHseiC_YFx6czEDDbubu6Q_YFhL9GAo/Other%20related%20lists
*http://tinyurl.com/26243c

*Raw Feeding has an average post count of nearly 3,000 a month and over
10,000 members, it just makes sense sometimes to move a topic along to
another list. Sometimes us listers even remember to redirect ourselves. ; )

Raw Chat has more latitude to discuss topics that go slightly askew of
feeding raw or that may be peculiar to raw feeding but doesn't involve raw
directly. With a membership of about 1,700 and a post count on average of
650 a month, its a better forum for OT, but related raw subjects.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Jan 1, 2008 5:04 PM, A. <ols@charter.net> wrote:

> Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I apologize for posting the
> question, I didn't think it was OT at the time. What is Raw Chat? Is
> that a separate yahoo group?
>
> ~Amanda
>
>

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10. Ground turkey from 2003...still okay?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:34 pm ((PST))

Okay, I got some packaged ground turkey from a friend the other day,
and I got it out to thaw today, and I just noticed that the expiration
date said "Use or freeze by October 03"

Wow! Now THAT is old meat! The plastic over the top is expanded (like
there is a lot of trapped air in there. My husband and I differ on
whether or not to feed it to the dogs. He just ended the conversation
by saying "Okay, but I'm not cleaning up the pudding poops!" LOL

I wanted to go by smell, but since I know you veteran raw feeders have
fed some pretty nasty stuff to your dogs, smell isn't really the way to
go.

How do you know when old is too old? I mean, that was 4 years ago. :)
Anyone got a general cutoff between "OK" and "Throw Away"?

Thanks,

-Steph and the girls

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11a. Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I have ma
Posted by: "w453angel2000" w453angel@earthlink.net w453angel2000
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:37 pm ((PST))

I have been feeding raw for about 9 months now. I know there is a
lot of differing opinions about whether dogs need fruit and veggies,
so I'm not sure if I need to give them these or not. It seems like a
good idea to add more nutrition, since my dogs are mainly on a
chicken diet. I can get 10 lb bags of chicken leg quarters at Wallie
World for $4.70 and we go through a lot of those!

I have just pureed several fresh fuits and veggies and am wondering
how much I should feed of this stuff to my dogs and how often.

They eat raw meaty bones for every meal, twice a day, mainly chicken
leg quarters. They also get green tripe, whenever I work up enough
nerve to thaw out about a 20 lb whole thing and slice it up. (next
time I'm buying this nasty stuff cut up!)

I try to keep my GSD's lean, but not skinny, per my vet's
instructions. He says it's better for the bones of large dogs. I keep
a little more weight on my Springers and ACD. They all have a nice
cover to their ribs, but no one is fat. I feed my pregnant dog more,
so she looks a tad on the plump side, then she will get whatever meat
and bones it takes to keep her in good weight, when she's nursing.

Here's what's in the pureed mix, which is a huge amount. I will need
to freeze some and thaw as needed:

About 3 - 4 lbs of broccoli
1 large bag of fresh spinach
About 2 lbs of fresh green beans
3 zuchini squash
3 yellow squash
1 large butternut squash
6 large carrots
1 bunch of parsley
3 large Golden Delicious apples - cored
1 - 1 lb bag of Berry Medley (strawberries, blackberries,
blueberries, raspberries)
2 lbs of beef liver
1 1/3 cups of flax meal

Should I add or subtract anything from this mix? I'm thinking that
next time, I won't add the liver, just feed it separate.

After I put this in a bowl for each dog, I thought I would add 1 egg
with shells, 1 - 1,000 mg capsule of Omega 3 Fish Oil and for my
pregnant German Shepherd, 1 - 400 mcg tablet of Folic Acid.

Would 1 cup for the GSD's and 1/2 cup for everyone else, every other
day be good? Is this too much, or too little? Often enough or
should I feed it every day?

Here are the dogs that I have:

1 - Mia - Female English Springer Spaniel - 37 lbs - eats 1 chicken
leg quarter per day

2 - Snickers - Female English Springer Spaniel - 37 lbs - eats 1
chicken leg quarter per day

3 - Timo - Male German Shepherd - 95 lbs - eats 4 chicken leg
quarters per day

4 - Morgan - Female German Shepherd - 65 lbs - eats 2 chicken leg
quarters per day

5 - Jetta - Female German Shepherd - 65 lbs - eats 2 chicken leg
quarters per day

6 - Ellie - Female German Shepherd - 80 - 85 lbs - Pregnant - eats 4
chicken leg quarters per day

7 - Athena - Female German Shepherd - 70 lbs - eats 3 chicken leg
quarters per day

8 - Maddie - Female German Shepherd - 72 lbs - eats 1 1/2 chicken leg
quarters per day. Has HD so vet says to keep her lean, at about 72
lbs

9 - Sydney - Australian Cattle Dog - 35 - 40 lbs - eats 1 1/2 chicken
leg quarters per day

Thanks,
Tari Jolin

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:59 pm ((PST))

Tari,

You really need to rethink this diet...far too chicken and bony heavy and
lacking in red meat...especially for your pregnant gal. She needs the best
possible nutrition at this time and that would be lots and lots of red meat,
a little bone and organs. Fruits and veggies are not going to make up for
lack of meat.

So the answer to how much and how often to feed your fruit/veggie mix is
none, never! The only appropriate ingredient in that entire mess is liver
and of course that would be better fed unground!

I will let some of the breeders on the list correct me if I'm wrong, but I
don't think you want to supplement with folic acid. Just feed an
appropriate diet.

BTW, feeding fruits and veggies isn't opinion...carnivores eat large
ungulates consisting of lots and lots of red meat, a little edible bone and
organs. No fruits or veggies.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:25 pm ((PST))

-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of w453angel2000
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:19 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Advice needed on how much to feed of this
veggie-fruit mix I have made

I have just pureed several fresh fuits and veggies and am wondering
how much I should feed of this stuff to my dogs and how often.

#### YOU can eat it, YOU need it, carnivores derive ALL their nutrition
from the FLESH of animals that eat vegetation. If it was intended, they
would have different dentition and the appropriate enzymes in saliva to
break down the vegetation. See any wolves out there with blenders? ;-))

#### you may wish to consider once per day feedings. So much better for
them once they get over the first couple of days Pavlov's bell
expectations...mainly chicken is not the ideal diet. Look into getting
luscious lamb, goat, pork...also, I don't see where the liver or organs are.
As wonderful as tripe is to them, kind of like candy for us, it really is
not a necessary dietary staple.

### good advice. A lean dog is a healthier dog, just like people.. :-))

Here's what's in the pureed mix, which is a huge amount. I will need
to freeze some and thaw as needed:

#### YIKES!!! no no no...root veggies aren't even that great for us...NO
veggies, except as an occasional treat. Dogs are not 'little people'. They
are predators, wolves. Feed them as they are meant to eat and revel in how
simple this really is. Oh yes, there is the liver though. Feed that in
small amounts to start, maybe once or twice per week.

Should I add or subtract anything from this mix? I'm thinking that
next time, I won't add the liver, just feed it separate.

### keep the liver. Flax is a grain, WRONG!

After I put this in a bowl for each dog, I thought I would add 1 egg
with shells, 1 - 1,000 mg capsule of Omega 3 Fish Oil and for my
pregnant German Shepherd, 1 - 400 mcg tablet of Folic Acid.

### large, fleshy, succulent meaty bones or carcasses, assorted organs,
eggs, fish..wonderful....eliminate veggies...focus on meaty bones. Omega 3
is fabulous though if feeding commercial meats. I am unsure about Folic
Acid ...others can chip in...

please read all the myth links here at

http://rawfed.com/myths

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Caught some good prices!
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:37 pm ((PST))

2 pks Chicken gizzards and hearts 1 for 79 cents the other for 96 cents
Turkey necks for $2.18
Turkey sausage for $1.69

Is the sausage ok? Or should we just eat it?

If we should eat it and not the dogs I'll make it tomorrow.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:00 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/1/2008 4:37:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
w453angel@earthlink.net writes:

It seems like a
good idea to add more nutrition, since my dogs are mainly on a
chicken diet. I can get 10 lb bags of chicken leg quarters at Wallie
World for $4.70 and we go through a lot of those!

Tari,

Your raw feeding $$$ would be far better used to find other affordable meats
and organs. chickens are cheap and make your raw feeding $$$ go further,but
they are far from ideal prey animals.

i find pork parts, often quite large parts for less than $1 lb on sale. Just
this week i found whole pork legs on sale in 2 different grocery stores, one
for $.99 lb and the other store had them for $.57 lb. I bought 100 lbs at the
second store..

organ meats are cheap and only need to be a small part of the diet, but a
VERY necessary part. At the hispanic and asian grocery stores in my area i can
almost always find beef liver, kidneys, and spleens for less than $1 lb, and
sometimes i even find sweetbreads, but they aren't as cheap. Same goes for pork
organs, depending on the store, they are less expensive than the beef organs.

grinding up veggies is a grand waste of your money and your time. Dogs are
CARNIVORES. their entire digestive system is geared towards getting the most
nutrition from meat and bones and organs. And they just aren't equiped
properly for digesting plant material. Even ground up and/or steamed or beaten into
submission will not make them any more bio-available to your dogs.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12445

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: nwohiopma
1c. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: debwilbers
1e. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: debwilbers
1f. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: New Member intro with question
From: h h

3a. Re: bones for teeth cleaning/small dogs (was: Photos link of my dog'
From: Betty

4a. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Lola
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: Lola
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Lola
From: katkellm
5d. Re: Lola
From: carnesbill
5e. Re: Lola
From: rolypolyloly
5f. Re: Lola
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Hooved animals?
From: Betty

7a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not?
From: Betty

8.1. Re: worms
From: DENISE HARMON

9a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: Betty
9b. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: new whippet not hungry
From: Laurie Swanson

11. Funny smell - bloodlike?
From: eventer2001

12a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: homesforallpets

13. Looking for a heavy duty grinder
From: bettathang

14a. Re: Aggression with bone
From: A.

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:12 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "debwilbers" <debwilbers@...>
wrote:
>
> Why would why my older GSD be going after the other 2 dogs Poop? Is
> it becasue I'm feeding Kibble for one meaal and have her ratios
> messed up on her raw feeding?

My totally unscientific and unproven and not backed up by anything
opinion about this is ... dogs tend to be attracted to the poop of
kibble fed dogs because of the undigested nutrients still in kibble
poop. Raw fed dogs have little or no undigested nutrients in their
poop so raw fed poop isn't attractive unless they have been fed some
indigestable stuff like veggies or something.

The dog who is doing the eating doesn't have anything missing in his
diet, he just smells food in the poop and is going after it like he
would go after any food anywhere he finds it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Hi,

One of my Collies, Danny, ate the other dogs' poop when they were
kibble fed. After switching to raw, he stopped completely.

In November, our old Collie Sonny had to be put down. We then rescued
a Sheltie, who was kibble fed. Danny ate the new dog's first few
poops until the new dog was fully digesting raw. Then he stopped again.

I don't know if your dog will stop eating poop, but mine did when I
switched to all raw.

Candace and the 3 Collies and 1 Sheltie

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:33 pm ((PST))

Debbie,

There is much speculation about what causes poop eating. Could be diet
related, could just be habit.

Regardless, you need to get all of them switch to a healthier diet. Drop
the kibble, yogurt, veggies and supplements (other than the pancreatin for
your EPI dog) and the ground foods and start feeding nice large, raw, meaty
portions to the girls.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "debwilbers" <debwilbers@yahoo.com>

I have 3 dogs, 2 GSDs and a Lhasa Apso all females. The older GSD
Teah 5yrs has been after the other dogs poops. My GSD Tessa 1 1/2 has
EPI and is on Kibble-Orijen White Fish & Potatoe, plus she gets the
Pancreatin Enzyme. Rascal-Lhasa Apso is all Raw and my oldest GSD
gets Kibble in the morning and Raw at night.

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "debwilbers" debwilbers@yahoo.com debwilbers
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "debwilbers" <debwilbers@> wrote:
> >
> > Debbie, what you need to do is get your dogs off kibble and fully
on whole raw meats, meaty bones and organs.......

I guess I should of explained further. I did have all my dogs on ALL
RAW. Teah always seemed hungry and looking for more, plus I couldn't
see just giving them mostly protein and nothing else. They couldn't
handle the Chicken backs or Turkey necks anymore and I was getting
those in bulk from the butcher. It was weird, I was feeding them these
meats/bones for a long time and all of sudden they couldn't handle them
anymore. I was giving them pre-made for a while just to get them back
in synch but that got costly. I was running out of ideas of what to
feed my dogs and how much. It became and exhausting venture for me.

The other problem was Tessa the 1-1/2 yr old. She couldn't handle the
Raw because of her EPI--I know, you would think that would be the best
for her but it wasn't-I tried and tried but her allergies were awful
and she was getting skinnier and skinnier on raw. I was feeding 3
times a day and it still didn't seem like enough food. I tried just all
protein/organ meats no veges or the dairy but nothing helped her with
her allergies or helped her nutrition wise and the cost was high
because of the amounts I had to buy and the meats had to be lean no fat.

I grind all my food because my dogs are gulpers I tried to feed the
whole chicken leg/thigh and they both kept choking. I had to do the
Heimlich manuvre on Tessa, so I will never do that again, but then
again it does't matter for her since she is on kibble.

If I have time in the morning I will still feed Teah the raw. But
otherwise for time convenience she will get the kibble.

There are so many different opinions out there on how to feed raw it
can get really confusing to some, it did for me. I think I did too much
reading. I still want to feed my dogs raw, except for Tessa-EPI.

If I'm feeding Teah 1 cup of Kibble in the morning, is the 15 ounces,
minus the veges, dairy products and throwing in organ meat enough for
her? I can't see that only protein is good for her. She is about 73
pounds.

Debbie
Teah, Tessa, Rascal

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "debwilbers" debwilbers@yahoo.com debwilbers
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "debwilbers" <debwilbers@>
> wrote:
> >

> My totally unscientific and unproven and not backed up by anything
> opinion about this is ... dogs tend to be attracted to the poop of
> kibble fed dogs because of the undigested nutrients still in kibble
> poop.

You know,your right, I've read this before. This doesn't explain why
she is going after the Lhasa's since she is on all raw, but then maybe
that one meal of kibble in the morning isn't giving Teah what she
needs. When they were all on RAW no one ate anyones poop.

I am hoping to go back to raw one day for Tessa. Her EPI has been in
complete control for over 3 months now. I'm also still ruling out what
she can eat because of her allergies. The Orijen White fish seems to be
working since she is scratching and biting less. What would one do to
feed raw if the dog can't have, chicken, turkey, beef, rabbit,
vennison, lamb. What if she can only eat fish......

Thanks for posting. And thanks for eveyone elses posts.

Debbie
Teah, Tessa, Rascal

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:26 pm ((PST))

Debbie,

The beauty of feeding raw is the diet can be tweaked to fit each individual
need. I don't know exactly what you were feeding previously but it could be
they didn't get enough meat to go along with those backs and necks, could be
your supplier started carrying a different brand or started enhancing the
products...hard to tell. But just because that didn't work, doesn't mean
your dogs wouldn't do well and be healthier on raw. So...time to start
over! :))

I doubt very much that your EPI dog is allergic to all of the proteins you
mentioned. It's not all that common for a dog to be allergic to one raw
protein, certainly not several. And getting her on a prey model raw diet
will be beneficial for her. The process of trying to digest foods dogs are
not designed to eat (carbohydrates) puts a strain on healthy organs, mainly
pancreas, so the sooner you can get her switched to raw the better!

Kibble is of no benefit at all. A raw diet will provide everything needed
for proper nutrition. I don't know what you have been feeding that was
mostly protein?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:30 am ((PST))

I just landed some turkey backs - they look very meaty along with lots
of necks. Would this be considered more meaty?

~~~~~~~~~
Since this question comes up often, I made a quick page with a side by side comparison of a couple of meaty pieces vs not-meaty pieces.

http://www.geocities.com/tarbedyh/meaty_or_not.html

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: bones for teeth cleaning/small dogs (was: Photos link of my dog'
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:41 am ((PST))

I don't have to remove the meaty chicken bones as he readily chomps at
those and eats them until gone, which really doesn't take him long. I
have been giving him raw meaty chicken thighs with bone intact. He has
been losing interest in the rib bones once he's cleaned them and I
simply throw it away. Those have not done the cleaning that the raw
rib bones have done though and I think it has a lot to do with the
meat, gristle and some fat that he has to gnaw at to get off. Chicken
is rather soft, even the bone.

Yes, you did help clarify some issues with giving slabs of ribs, and
large boned animals such as cows. I would think rabbit would be a good
choice and I'm going to try rabbit, and fish next if I can get those.
I'll try the hind quarters of a rabbit and the head or middle of a
fish, or something on that order. Thanks!
Prism

> You shouldn't need to remove a chicken bone--isn't that completely
> edible for your dog?
> Does this help?
> Laurie

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:41 am ((PST))

Jennifer,

I am really sorry for your loss although not certain how aspiration
pneumonia was caused by chicken necks. But, there are many reasons not to
feed small bony items to large dogs...gulping and choking is just one of
them. Necks might be fine for 4-week-old puppies who are only going to gum
the food or for cats or tiny dogs with additional meat, but they have no
place in a large dog's diet whether ground or whole.

I understand your fear, but you have made the common mistake of thinking
ground food is somehow better/safer. It is not. Ground encourages gulping,
does not clean the teeth and gums and is not easier to digest.

Whole large food is the way to go, for many reasons.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <oldbones929@alltel.net>

> I started ginding the chicken, etc. for my dogs after I lost an Irish
Wolfhound to aspiration pneumonia after feeding a meal of chicken necks. He
and my other dogs had been eating raw for a few years and I'll never take
that chance again, so I grind.

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Lola
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:59 am ((PST))

Hi Stefanie,

1. No beef bones unless they are slathered in meat...remove the bone once
the meat is gone. Small cut bones found in steaks, chops, etc. aren't the
best...they are hard, sharp and too small. No chicken necks..turkey necks
are a "know your dog" thing. Some can eat them with no problems but if you
have a gulper that tries to swallow food whole, they are just the right
diameter to get stuck and present a choking hazard.

2. The 10% bones recommended is in overall diet...you may feed bony once a
day or a couple of times per week, but the majority of the diet is going to
be nice red meat and fat. If you feed bone every meal you most likely are
feeding too much....however, not something to worry about in the first week
or so unless your dog is having elimination issues! :)

3. Skin and fat is good...very nutritious and a necessary part of the diet.

4. If you feed a large meal and she quits when full, put it away for another
day.

5. This one is easy....you don't! :) No fruits or veggies other than
treats if she likes them.

6. Meat, meat and more meat! No yogurt or beans. Eggs are great!

7. Some dogs like fish, some don't. No big deal one way or another. Try
again later or try a different fish (mackerel, sardines). Canned fish is
cooked so no it would not have the same benefits as raw.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Lola
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:16 pm ((PST))

"rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...> wrote:
> What about beef bones? Are those okay?
*****
Starting out, it's eaiest to just remove beef bones from your Open To
Buy list. When you and your dogs are more comfortable with your
dogs' abilities, you can consider beef bones. Generally they are not
considered edible; specifically some dogs do quite well on ribs and
necks and brisket bones. The long weight-bearing bones are not
recommended.

We did give her
> the t-bone, and she had no problems with it. Was it wrong to give
her
> a t-bone steak?
*****
I prefer to avoid cut bones and I definitely don't feed sharp,
stiletto-like bones, such as t-bones and "country style" pork ribs.
Feeding these bones is a personal choice. Perhaps set these bones
aside as well, for later evaluation when you've got more experience.

What about rodents like guinea pigs?
*****
Whole guinea pigs would be good food yes, if the size was right for
the dog and the pigs were raised on an appropriate healthy diet.

(I'd really just
> like to make myself a list of bones NOT to feed)
*****
You can do that. In fact, you will do that, with time. For now,
avoiding beef bones, small bones, naked bones, sharp pointy bones,
old bones and cooked bones should get you through most situations.

What about necks?
> Some of you say they are a chocking hazard and never to feed bones
> like turkey necks, while others say do feed them these.
*****
It's a dog by dog by human decision. I'd wager most agree that: Hen
turkey necks are best limited to small dogs or cats; that tom turkey
necks may be useful for dogs that take their time eating; that whole
turkey necks are more reliable than half necks; that they are not
notably meaty.

I haven't fed turkey necks for years and have no intention to. I
don't trust my dogs, I don't trust turkey necks. This is my choice.
What you do with them is your choice.

> 2. In the beginning, most of you say to start with something simple
> and bland like chicken leg quarters. We have done this, but by doing
> so, she is getting bone with every meal. I've read that dogs only
need
> about 10% (just a guide I understand) of bone a week, but is it okay
> for her to eat the bone every meal?
*****
It's okay, it's just not necessary and if doing so limits your
feeding options, by all means quit feeding bones every meal. Also of
course, if feeding bones every meal make defecating difficult for
your dog, back off on the bones.

I don't find much reason to feed bone every meal, and when I do need
to feed it in every meal, I feed lots less bone than that which comes
in a leg quarter. Leg quarters have way higher bone content than
10%; you might want to broaden your menu a tad to include rib-in
chicken breasts, or boneless meat or a back with a plop of added meat.

> 3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
> makes sense, so I've been cutting it off. I've also been cutting off
> all of the skin too. Do I need to do this or is it nutritious in any
> way? What about fur? If I were to buy her a guinea pig, as suggested
> in one post I read, do I need to skin it?
*****
Fat is useful. If you need to cut some off as an introductory offer,
fine; I rarely cut off fat and my dogs range from one that's slightly
perhaps maybe a tad overweight to a dog that could easily gain five
pounds and I wouldn't complain. Fat (both subQ and in the flesh) is
vital. A dog's entire food pyramid is protein and fat. I would not
recommend severely and consistently cutting off all the fat.

Leave the skin on unless you are dealing with loose stools or you are
really REALLY trying to take some weight off. Skin is an organ,
don't blow your opportunity to feed a organ.

When you get the GP, feed it whole and unfussed with. Let the dog
figure it out. Worst case, you may have to cut into the abdomen to
increase interest.

> Should I wrap it up and
> put it back in the fridge or freezer or just leave it out for her to
> gnaw on?
*****
Both are good options. Plan to do both as weather and circumstances
dictate. If she'll eat all day and you don't want her to, collect
the remains for the next meal.

> 5. How do you feed vegetables?
*****
I don't, you shouldn't. Definitely you should not consider
vegetation a measurable part of the menu. There is no nutritional
slot in a dog's diet that is filled by vegetation. Table scraps and
stuff that drops on the floor--animal, vegetable, mineral--are fair
game for my dogs. Other than that? Nope, no way. Yes, you can
say "no" to those eyes and don't think you can't. You're the
decider, not her. Decide to feed her a species appropriate diet.

> 6. She is also getting yogurt, which she loves, beans, and has had
an
> egg. Any other protein rich sources that you feed your furry kids?
*****
Egad. Have you been reading Billinghurst? Yogurt is not an
appropriate "protein-rich" food. Humans and humans alone drink milk
after they're weaned. Feed a dollop of yogurt as a treat but please
get over the notion of making a meal of it. No milk meals. No bean
meals. Eggs are fine whole foods and you can feed them to bowel
tolerance. What your girl needs for protein-rich food is meat, meaty
bones, organs.

> 7. We bought a salmon fillet and gave it to her, but she just spit
it
> out and looked at us like we were stupid. We did get her to eat it,
> but she did not want to. Maybe she just doesn't like salmon.
*****
Or perhaps she doesn't like farmed salmon. Or perhaps it was too
cold. Hard to know, but since fish is not a required course, don't
worry. If she likes salmon later, good; if she likes other fish,
good; if she doesn't, that's okay too.

Is canned tuna okay to give her?
*****
Canned tuna is considered to be one of the "high mercury" fish. If
you want to feed it, do so occasionally and stay away from solid
white albacore and oil-pack. Water pack "chunk light" offers less
soy and lower mercury levels. OTOH, since fish isn't needed and
certainly cooked fish isn't needed, you can comfortably skip the
whole schmear if you so desire.

Does it have the same health
> benefits as a whole fish? Is there another fish that your dogs enjoy
*****
There's no bone, so that's a clear deficiency. Most whole fish
you're likely to come across will be useful for protein variety; few
fish--salmon, mackerel, herring, sardine, anchovy--will deliver Omega
3. For now, if you are interested in offering fish, shoot for
healthy raw variety.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5c. Re: Lola
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:21 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...> wrote:
>What about beef bones? Are those okay? We did give her
> the t-bone, and she had no problems with it. Was it wrong to give her
> a t-bone steak?

Hi Stephanie,
The problem with t- bones is not the density of the bone, but the
unnaturally narrow and sharp shape that the butcher's saw cuts it
into. So, no, i wouldn't feed the bones based on the cut. Most beef
bones are too dense for a dog to eat. For the size of your dog, beef
ribs are, maybe, the exception to the rule. Pork, turkey, lamb, goat,
and deer bones should be edible for your dog. These bones should be
hidden under a hunk of meat and the size of the meal should require
that the dog has to rip and chew to eat. The recommendation is to
make the the portion bigger than the dog's head.

>I've read that dogs only need
> about 10% (just a guide I understand) of bone a week, but is it okay
> for her to eat the bone every meal?

The what you do know and the what you will be doing later should be
different. For the newbie phase, bone with every meal helps with
stool control. Since bone tightens things up, it helps to keep a dog
from getting loose stools. Though these stools are a pain in the
clean up to the person, they do not mean a dog is sick. Eventually,
you will probably feed whole meals of nothing but meat, since 10% just
ain't a lot of bone. For the next couple of weeks, however, feeding
more than 10% bone is ok. Balance is achieved over time and there is
no set window of time to hit it.
>
> 3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
> makes sense, so I've been cutting it off. I've also been cutting off
> all of the skin too.

Skin and fat are part of the prey animal and should be fed. The
recommendation to trim fat and skin is only made to make digestion
easier or if a dog has a digestive issue. So, it is ok that you
removed them initially, but if you have been successfully feeding raw
for a week, it is time to leave the skin and fat on.

> 5. How do you feed vegetables?

You don't. They have no place in the diet of a carnivore. Dairy
products fall into this category, too. Carnivores get the nutrients
by eating the animal that eats the veggies, they can't utilize the
veggies themselves. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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5d. Re: Lola
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...>
wrote:
>
> Lola weighs 74 lbs. This is her "ideal" weight. She could gain or
> lose a pound without problems, but she looks good and is toned
> in all the right spots.

Don't worry about pounds. That is not what you should be looking
at. The "looks good and is toned in all the right spots" is how you
judge whether she is getting the right amount of food. Don't worry
about 2% to 3% and don't worry about 74. Worry about how she looks
and feels. All the rest is just numbers.

> I have several questions. Please feel free to answer one or all of
> them. I will even number them for ease of following along
> and replying.

Several others have answered and I basically agree with what as been
said before me. I will only comment on things I see a little
different from what has already been said.

> 1. What about necks?

I have been feeding turkey necks 2 or 3 times a week for over 5
years and I just don't see them as a hazzard. I do suggest you feed
whole necks and not the necks that have been cut in half by the
grocer. Whole necks are around a foot long and weigh about a pound.

Sometimes my dogs will swallow a piece that they judge to be too
large about half way down. They bring these back into their mouth,
chew a little more and swallow again and all is ok. I think this is
what a lot of people see and call it choking. To me, it's not
choking, rather deciding to chew a little more.

> 2. In the beginning, most of you say to start with something simple
> and bland like chicken leg quarters. We have done this, but
> by doing so, she is getting bone with every meal.

I never worry about percentages or ratios in a diet. Again, they
are just numbers and are not critical. The health of your dog will
be the same whether you feed 5% bone or 35% bone. Excess calcium
gets excreeted through the kidneys. You have to REALLY feed a lot
of bone to feed too much. Some people feed bone every meal and some
feed bone occasionally. If his stools don't come out of the chute
white nnd crumbly you aren't feeding too much bone. If they turn
white and crumbly in a day or so, you are ok and to me that is a
desirable thing.

> 3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
> makes sense, so I've been cutting it off.

Dogs handle fat differently than humans. Fat in a dog's diet
replaces carbs. It is their source of energy. Dogs need fat.
However, in the early stages of feeding a raw diet, too much fat can
sometimes cause loose stools. You might want to go light on fat
right now but a couple of months down the road feed whatever fat is
attached to whatever you feed.

> I've also been cutting off
> all of the skin too. Do I need to do this or is it nutritious
> in any way?

Basically the same thing I said about fat applies to skin.

> What about fur?

Hair is pretty indestable. It will pass through pretty much
unchanged and doesn't contribute any nutrients.

> If I were to buy her a guinea pig, as suggested
> in one post I read, do I need to skin it?

No ... you can but don't need to.

> 4. Should I wrap it up and
> put it back in the fridge or freezer or just leave it out for
> her to gnaw on?

I would put it up for later. If you are going to feed the rest in a
day or two I would put it in the fridge. Longer would call for a
freezer. It's your choice.

> 5. How do you feed vegetables?

I don't ever. Never have in 5 years.

> I can't say no to that little face and those eyes!

Toughen up and learn to. Its for her own good.

> How do I get the most nutrition
> out of fruits and veggies for her?

There is none that is useful to her. There is no nutrient in any
veggie that is not in the meat, bones, or organs of the prey animals
that eat them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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5e. Re: Lola
Posted by: "rolypolyloly" einafets83@gmail.com rolypolyloly
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

Egad. Have you been reading Billinghurst? Yogurt is not an
appropriate "protein-rich" food. Humans and humans alone drink milk
after they're weaned. Feed a dollop of yogurt as a treat but please
get over the notion of making a meal of it. No milk meals. No bean
meals.
*********

Sorry-
I should have said that I am NOT feeding her yogurt or fruit or
veggies as a main staple of her diet. She just likes them. We used to
give her the store bought treats, but now, yogurt and carrots are her
"treats."

P.S. Yes, we did read billinghurst. Is that a "no-no" here?!
Stefanie

Messages in this topic (7)
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5f. Re: Lola
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:52 pm ((PST))

"rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...> wrote:
>> P.S. Yes, we did read billinghurst. Is that a "no-no" here?!
*****
Not so much a "no no" as a "wrong wrong".

Either through malice aforethought or miseducation, he's out to lunch
in several significant areas. The omnivorous nature of dogs, for
example is mythology at best. A diet composed of ground meats and
veggies plus depressingly bony bone and unnecessary supplements--the
vaunted BARF diet--is a poor approximation of a wolf's species
appropriate diet. What Billinghurst did do was get some people to stop
feeding kibble. What he did not do was be honest about our domestic
wolves.

His guidelines are not ones this list recommends.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Hooved animals?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Yes, I figured that there are no wild cows, but there are lots of wild
hooved animals that aren't around like Buffalo, and wolves hunt in
packs and do bring down those larger animals so I was just curious as
to what responses would come up:) Birds are much different than
smaller animals like rabbits, to me rabbits, small pigs make a lot of
sense, even squirrels and raccoons, things of that nature.

I'm kinda getting a feeling for this prey model raw feeding! Cats
catch birds..a lot. I worked at the zoo when young and a lion caught a
male peacock and ate the whole thing except the feathers which I got
to keep!

Prism
___________
As to poultry they are harder to catch live than any grounded animal
but from time to time they do get caught and ate by wild dogs/wolves
so I do not see it being bad to feed them after all they are all meat
under neath right? Dogs eat meat right? So no problems :P
> Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Are pork rib bones softer than cow ribs then? I can try those next
instead of the raw beef ribs. Or do you still take them away once
those are cleaned?

Also, I thought that a dog is ok to bury their bones, and I would
think they bury bones in all manner of being worked on, meat on,
somewhat on, all cleaned? I wouldn't let mine bury his due to my doing
in home childcare and the backyard is small and he's really mostly an
indoor dog anyway.
Prism
___________________

> #### I LOVE pork rib bones. I get MASSIVE slabs of them for cheap
and Ricco loves them!
> Chia & Ricco

Messages in this topic (17)
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8.1. Re: worms
Posted by: "DENISE HARMON" Harmonydobes1@msn.com dobermom_shibamom
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

My dogs got worms from eating Rabbits. It was very expensive to deworm them because of the specific worm the rabbits carry. I will not feed WHOLE rabbits again. I do feed them skinned and gutted rabbits and have never had another problem. This case is not just random. I can state cases where many many dogs were infected with this worm from whole rabbits. I choose to be very careful when it comes to rabbits.

Dee Harmon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (41)
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9a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Would cows feet be a knuckle bone? Yes, so many of you all do have
large dogs, and are at least 3 times the weight and size of my little
Maltese.

The raw beef rib does keep him most of the day once I give it to him,
around noon and I take it way around bedtime as he loses interest in
chewing on it after it's cleaned..although he likes guarding it.

Maybe it takes him longer for a single bone because of his loose and
sensitive teeth and gums? Although I never noticed that when he was
eating the raw chicken thighs. I only knew his teeth needed cleaning.

He seems to be going thru some detoxing, because for the first time
ever in his 8 yrs. his right ear is red, itchy and bugging him and
that is the side with the worst tooth but it looks like it's clearing
up and even getting tighter! Also, with his left ear but not the
extent of his right ear. This is after 5 days of giving him hunks of
raw beef, the raw rib bones, and cleaning with a little water and
Iodine solution on that bad tooth.

I think that how could I have been fooled into thinking that the raw
patties one gets from the freezer section at the pet store was
optimal? Good thing he always got raw albeit bite sized beef chunks
from me along with at least some raw chicken bones or he might be so
worse off after 5+ years of raw feeding that way!
Prism
____________________
> If it takes your guy a whole day to pick clean a single rib, and at
> the end of the day if the bone is bare naked but generally
>unscarred, there's probably little likelihood he'll bust a tooth.
>But if a rib bone takes all day for your dog, you certainly don't
>need cow feet to keep him amused!
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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9b. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:04 pm ((PST))

"Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:>
> Would cows feet be a knuckle bone?
*****
No. A knuckle bone is the joint at either end of the femur. A cow
foot is a cow foot: from the ground north to its pastern.

> Maybe it takes him longer for a single bone because of his loose and
> sensitive teeth and gums? Although I never noticed that when he was
> eating the raw chicken thighs.
*****
Chicken thighs are easier bones than beef ribs. But it may take him
all day because he's enjoying himself.

> I think that how could I have been fooled into thinking that the raw
> patties one gets from the freezer section at the pet store was
> optimal?
*****
Good marketing and you didn't know any better.

he might be so
> worse off after 5+ years of raw feeding that way!
*****
Five plus years of any raw is better than five plus years of kibble.
You can fix what wasn't right.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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10a. Re: new whippet not hungry
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:40 pm ((PST))

Hi Christine,

How old is your pup? Is she acting normal other than not very hungry?
She could be full from yesterday, or she may have liked the cooked
goose (stronger smell & flavor than raw chicken) and is hoping holding
out for more of that might work.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "christinegenova" <geauxgirl@...>
wrote:

Gave her the chicken, a couple of sniffs and she
> just walked away.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. Funny smell - bloodlike?
Posted by: "eventer2001" eventer2001@yahoo.com eventer2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:45 pm ((PST))

The 5 month old newf has been eating raw since I got him just over 2
months ago. I've been introducing new meats lately -- picked up some
pork rib ends at the market on Saturday on sale, some turkey wings at
the store on their "almost dead" sale shelf. Mostly though, he gets
ground beef and chicken. Lately we had instances of smelling
something coming from the pup... the paramedic hubby says it smells a
bit like blood. There is no blood in his stools. He coughed up some
bones this morning and there was only a few bones and clear liquid.
His energy levels are fine -- constantly playing with the kids or the
adult cattle dog. We're a bit concerned about the smell and not quite
sure what it might be. About a week ago, just as I signed on to this
list, both dogs had a couple days with large beef bones in the
backyard. Those were taken away after reading this list as well as
him coughing up some beef bone chunks one day. He chews his meals
pretty well and like I said already... no problems with energy and we
aren't SEEING any discharge of blood either in stools or in vomit. So
where could the smell be coming from? Any ideas?

Thanks tons!
Tammy
& Reilly

Dayton, Ohio

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "claudia" <claudia_homer@...> wrote:
>
> Good morning,
>
> Just wondering how they kill all those little critters! ~ Claudia
>
>
>
CO2 gas chamber. No ill effects have been found as of yet but I do
know that many animals suffer sezures if anything is wrong with the
setup (low tank, leak in system, etc). I prefer a spinal dislocation
myself. I also prefer to do it myself. Anytime I can process an
animal myself I feel better about it. Mostly because I know I didn't
do any of the things you sometimes hear about happening, like chickens
being kicked before processing, or cows bein bullied with electric
prods. I just prefer knowing an animal suffered as little as
possible. Of course until I get up and running with rats and mice for
my cats I may order some from these folks. But not for dogs. . .

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (7)
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13. Looking for a heavy duty grinder
Posted by: "bettathang" bettathang@yahoo.com bettathang
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST))

Hello All-
After seeing the way that raw has changed my dogs, I've decided to
switch my cat to raw as well. After reading some other posts about
how animals with few teeth can handle chunks w/bone, I tried some
chicken chunks with my cat. He can't do it. He couldn't even eat any
of the chicken meat. When chopped very finely, he eats with gusto,
but I want to make sure he is getting the proper bone contanet. He
has no molars, and no canines, only a few incisors in the front (poor
boy!). Can anyone recommend a good grinder that can grind bone? Or
do most grinders on the market have the capability of grinding smaller
bones?
Thanks!
-Heidi and her gummy cat

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:05 pm ((PST))

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I apologize for posting the
question, I didn't think it was OT at the time. What is RawChat? Is
that a separate yahoo group?

~Amanda

> ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN
>
> Please take all training discussions to RawChat or private. This
> includes resource guarding. Thank you.
> Chris O
> Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (17)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12444

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hooved animals?
From: homesforallpets

2.1. Re: worms
From: homesforallpets
2.2. Re: worms
From: carnesbill
2.3. Re: worms
From: costrowski75

3. Hooved animals/balance
From: Jane Boswell

4a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not?
From: Chia

5a. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: Cheryl Younesi
5b. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: Cathy
5c. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: katkellm

6a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: claudia
6c. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: Lisa Blair
6d. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: costrowski75
6f. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: oldbones929@alltel.net
7b. Amounts for a puppy
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: expertise
From: Belinda van de Loo
8b. Re: expertise
From: costrowski75

9a. Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: debwilbers
9b. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: eadible bones in pork
From: costrowski75

12. Lola
From: rolypolyloly

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Hooved animals?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 6:53 am ((PST))

> I read thru a link here someplace that raw feeding dogs is any large
> hooved animal..and chicken, rabbits, fish, and such aren't hooved.
How
> does one conclude that chickens and such are ok? Just wondering..I
> give my Maltese meaty raw chicken thighs, and it seems like many
> people here give lots of other meats other than 'hooved' meats.
>

LOL, the way to know if it is ok is to think if a wolf might be able
to get and eat one in the wild. At least that is what I am hearing
(do I need my "ears" checked lol?). For instance rabbits. They are
available in the wild in nearly every country there are wolves,
abundantly so. Howmany times have you seen a dog or cat catch and
eat wild rabbits? Of course they are ok to feed :) As to poultry
they are harder to catch live than any grounded animal but from time
to time they do get caught and ate by wild dogs/wolves so I do not
see it being bad to feed them after all they are all meat under neath
right? Dogs eat meat right? So no problems :P

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (3)
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2.1. Re: worms
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 6:53 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gaye Amick" <northernskychar@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm still researching...Yes, still....I was brought up with the
idea if
> a dog was feed raw food or raw bones they could get worms??? Can
this
> happen from feeding some raw foods? How can I prevent it from
> happening?? What foods to avoid that are known to cause worms?
What'll
> I do if it does???
>
> Thanks for all your help.
> Gaye
>

Every kibble fed dog I have ever seen has to be dewormed regularly.
It comes from infected animal feces. You can bring it in on your
shoes from what I understand. A raw fed dog will be healthier and
more resistant also less inviting to these pests. They tend to
establish better in the slow moving guts of kibble fed animals. BIG
reason I am working hard to get my cats switched too. I know they'll
eat furred mice and rats so I am seeking breeding animals of both
kinds to raise my own as it would be cheaper than ordering from a
site though I may order some to get started until I have a supply of
self raised ones.

The myth that all ills are caused by raw are untrue. Anything that
can happen to a raw fed dog happens more often to a kibble fed dog.

Kathy in MO (a True convert, yea!)

Messages in this topic (40)
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2.2. Re: worms
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 8:39 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gaye Amick"
<northernskychar@...> wrote:
>
> I'm still researching...Yes, still....I was brought up with the
> idea if a dog was feed raw food or raw bones they could
> get worms???

Any animal including humans CAN get worms. Doesn't mean they do.
My present dogs have never had worms and my other dogs never had
worms after switching them to raw.

> Can this happen from feeding some raw foods?

I suppose it can but I can't give you an incidence that it has.

> How can I prevent it from happening??

If you are really concerned about it, you could freeze your food for
a couple of weeks to kill any parasites in it. Most of what I feed
is frozen simply because I buy in large quanities. They eat a lot
of meat that I don't freeze.

> What foods to avoid that are known to cause worms?

None

> What'll I do if it does???

It doesn't.

Worms caused by raw feeding just isn't a concern. Find something
else to worry about because this isn't a worry.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (40)
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2.3. Re: worms
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:44 am ((PST))

"Gaye Amick" <northernskychar@...> wrote:
>
> I'm still researching...Yes, still....I was brought up with the idea
if
> a dog was feed raw food or raw bones they could get worms???
*****
You might want to browse the list archives! There are some 30+ posts
already sent and answered that address this issue. If you are not
already a member of Yahoogroups, there are at the bottom of each
rawfeeding email you receive instructions for joining Yahoogroups.

The short answer is no worms, no worries. For longer answers the list
archives are your friend.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (40)
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3. Hooved animals/balance
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 6:53 am ((PST))

Hi there,

I haven't posted for a while. The number one
question seems always to be "balance". I used
to be worried, worried, worried. After about
5 years now, however, and introducing a pup
to raw, I don't give it much thought any more.
Both my Belgian Shepherds are thriving.
The 'pup' is now 18 months and in glowing
good health. Great conformation coat, wonderful
teeth, excellent muscle tone, great energy and drive.
My older boy - 5.5 years - has clean teeth, great
(albeit neutered) coat, healthy joints and energy to keep up with
the youngster. They both have great 'breath'.

I look for sale items and gladly take what hunter
friends and others give me out of their surpluses.
I shamelessly advertise my need far and wide. (grin)

The only thing I avoid is large bones as I don't
need any cracked teeth - my preference not the
dogs'.

After a while, it's becomes second nature and you
don't have to constantly think about it. I know what
I've given them today and I pull out something
different from the freezer for tomorrow. A couple
of times a week I throw in an organic egg or two
and organs.

I know there is much debate about supplements, but
I do give my boys fish oil caps, weekly vitamin E, daily
kelp and alfalfa and vitamin C a few times a week. They
also get a couple of hours of exercise each day and
weekly brushing.

My homeopathic/holistic/RMB fan vet is very pleased
with the results and she would let me know if she
had any worries.

Jane in Maine
waiting for MORE snow... too much this year... stop already

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4a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 6:56 am ((PST))

What risks are there with raw rib bones? What bones are best, better
in your opinion?

#### I LOVE pork rib bones. I get MASSIVE slabs of them for cheap and
Ricco loves them!

Chia & Ricco

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5a. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 7:29 am ((PST))

I started to get some pork necks but they were cut up. They were very
meaty. My dogs weigh 3 lbs. and 6 lbs. Are the bones cut up too small
for them?
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (12)
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5b. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:49 am ((PST))

i use them for my 10 lb'ers......just watch as some have sliver cuts and those i remove.
Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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5c. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:48 am ((PST))

Cheryl Younesi <CYounesi@...> wrote:
>
> I started to get some pork necks but they were cut up
*****
Even for small dogs get the bigger bones. Let your dogs work on the
nooks and crannies.

They were very
> meaty.
*****
Probably they weren't but for small dogs the effort involved in
removing whatever meat there is is the big deal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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5d. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Younesi <CYounesi@...> wrote:
>
> I started to get some pork necks but they were cut up. They were very
> meaty. My dogs weigh 3 lbs. and 6 lbs. Are the bones cut up too small
> for them?

Hi Cheryl,
I would say probably not, because you have very small dogs. Pork neck
bones present two problems, lack of meat, which can be balanced by
adding meat to the meal, and, depending on the size of the dog, the
way the butcher cuts them up into pitifully small hunks. I have
largish dogs, and i have never found pork neck bones from the grocery
store that i am comfortable feeding. If i had small dogs and if i
knew that my dogs eating style did not lend itself to gulping and
swallowing, i would feed the store ones to them. Too small is
determined by the size of the dogs. How safe is determined, i feel, by
the eating style of the dog. If your dogs aren't gulpers, cut neck
bones are probably ok in this respect also. I feed whole neck bones
from the slaughter house because i have large dogs, and they love
them. So, its kinda a know thy dog thing because if varies from dog
to dog. KathyM

Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 8:06 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...>
wrote:
>
> Will my dog be getting
> everything he needs from those whole prey animals only?

Hey Jordan,
Why do you insist on feeding your dogs snake food(tiny little
animals)? Rodentpro may have the best prices for these little
animals but if you figure the price/lb, they are VERY expensive.
Yes, your dogs will be healthy if thses little animals are what
makes up their diet. I just don't know why you want to. What size
are your dogs?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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6b. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "claudia" claudia_homer@yahoo.com claudia_homer
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 8:38 am ((PST))

Good morning,

Just wondering how they kill all those little critters! ~ Claudia

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...>
wrote:
>
> I visited rodentpro.com. They have the BEST prices. It's a snake feed
place and they also
> stock whole carcasess of guinea pigs,rabbits,quail,and chicks. Will
my dog be getting
> everything he needs from those whole prey animals only?
>
> asked by Jordan Spiva
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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6c. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "Lisa Blair" lkblair@yahoo.com lkblair
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:26 am ((PST))

Most places that sell pre-killed small prey humanely euthanize with CO2.

For folks looking at small prey to feed, I would suggest that you check locally for folks that sell to reptile fanciers.

Lisa

----- Original Message ----
From: claudia <claudia_homer@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 10:14:38 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.

Good morning,

Just wondering how they kill all those little critters! ~ Claudia

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Messages in this topic (6)
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6d. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:00 am ((PST))

"jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...> wrote:
>
> I visited rodentpro.com. They have the BEST
***** It's a snake feed place and they also
> stock whole carcasess of guinea pigs,rabbits,quail,and chicks. Will
my dog be getting
> everything he needs from those whole prey animals only?
>
> asked by Jordan Spiva
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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6e. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:39 am ((PST))

"jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...> wrote:>
> I visited rodentpro.com. They have the BEST prices.
*****
Okay, take two.

They don't have the best prices if you can't buy to fill a box and
you factor in shipping. I would have to buy my cats many hundred
mice to make RodentPro an affordable source. And of course for my
big dogs it's not at all practical.

they also
> stock whole carcasess of guinea pigs,rabbits,quail,and chicks. Will
my dog be getting
> everything he needs from those whole prey animals only?
*****
These are small critters. What sort of dogs do you have that you can
feed small critters to? How many dogs do you have to justify the
quantity RodentPro demands? How much money can you spend?

Any one of these critters--all of them over time--can be useful in
the diet of a domestic wolf. But your domestic wolf should also be
eating ungulates; your domestic wolf's menu should mostly be
ungulates, especially ruminants. In the real world, small prey would
be occasional and usually seasonal. However, being able to feed
whole prey is not an opportunity to dismiss.

I suggest trying the largest of RodentPro's product, as relates to
the size of your dog. Choosing wisely and feeding a varied menu that
includes these critters as well as beef, lamb, goat, venison et al
should make life interesting for a small dog. If these animals are
too small for your dog, you remove the effort factor. Swallowing
small prey whole (as a reptile would do) does provide the bones and
the meat and the organs in perfect relationship with each other, but
food is also about dental and mental hygiene and good old fun.

Another concern (Casey and I were just discussing this issue
yesterday, no fooling!) is the quality of product. These critters,
produced as they are in huge volumes, are fed formulized diets that
are created to be "nutritionally complete and balanced"--just as dog
food is--with strict economies that definitely depend on dubious
ingredients. Paying dearly for critters fed foodlike substances may
be a higher price than the concept is worth, especially if your
intention is to rely completely on factory livestock.

Also keep in mind that these animals are usually raised to standards
that best nourish reptiles, not your dog. I seriously doubt the mice
are being fed food that's species appropriate for mice. Which means
you may feed whole prey but your dog's nutritional needs may not be
met.

Chris O

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6f. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:50 am ((PST))

"claudia" <claudia_homer@...> wrote:
>
> Just wondering how they kill all those little critters!
*****
Probably CO2. You could go to the website and look around. Reputable
sources (and RodentPro is) will say.
Chris O

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7a. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "oldbones929@alltel.net" oldbones929@alltel.net oldbones929
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:12 am ((PST))

I started ginding the chicken, etc. for my dogs after I lost an Irish Wolfhound to aspiration pneumonia after feeding a meal of chicken necks. He and my other dogs had been eating raw for a few years and I'll never take that chance again, so I grind.

Jennifer

> *****
> Um, I'm not sure where you've been but I don't think it's to the list
> archives. Ground meat is not necessary; even a pup can--and should--
> be working on whole meats; and chicken necks are not snacks, they're
> basic food, albeit pretty small and meatless. For a small dog, for a
> small dog puppy, and for cats they may be useful, at least for a
> while, but they're not the only bones available to pups. Bones with
> meat, like rib-in chicken breasts and quail are quite nice. Snacks?
> I don't think so.
>
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:12 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, <oldbones929@...> wrote:
>
> I started ginding the chicken, etc. for my dogs after I lost an
Irish Wolfhound to aspiration pneumonia after feeding a meal of
chicken necks.

Jennifer,
What makes you think chicken necks caused the asperation pneumonia?
I don't see how that could happen. Large dogs usually swallow
pieces of meat/bones larger than chicken necks in the normal course
of eating. I know probably every swallow my Great Danes make are
larger pieces than a chicken neck. I think what happened to your
dog would have happened regardless of what he was eating whether
whole animal parts or ground or kibble. I don't think you are doing
anything to lessen the chance of it happening again simply by
grinding the food. It was just one of those freak things that
happen from time to time. If you had a toy dog that had choked on a
chicken neck, it would he something else but a chicken neck is a
well chewed piece of meat/bone to a Wolfhound.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: expertise
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com auntielindyloo
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:12 am ((PST))

One key question here would be regarding the other chemical influences,
specifically vaccinations. Has your dog been vaccinated in the past 6
months? My dog reacted specifically to vaccination via his immune
system and resulted in a lot of "itchies" and ear probs.
He has since steered clear of any and all vaccinations and Frontline-
type applications and has been fine. He had a homeopathic remedy
against vaccinosis and is healthy now.
So, my question would be if your dog has been vaccinated or any
chemicals applied for fleas/heartworm, etc. They could be the culprits.
Belinda

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8b. Re: expertise
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:57 am ((PST))

ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN

People aren't paying attention again! Must be the season. Please take
all discussion of non-diet related allergy issues to RawChat, DogHealth
or private. The range of possibilities is far too broad to cover on
this list.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "debwilbers" debwilbers@yahoo.com debwilbers
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:13 am ((PST))

My older GSD (5 YRS) has been after the Tessas & Rascals poop, she
has never done anything like this before. I did switch Teah my older
GSD to one cup of Kibble in the morning w1/4 cup of cottage cheese or
yogurt/Kiefer and some pureed veges and she does get Raw for her
evening meal. I think I'm giving her the correct ratios of feeding
but now not so sure now.

For Teah: The raw is either Turkery/Vennison/or Hamburger w/about 4-5
ounces of Chicken Necks or Chicken Thighs/Legs which is ground up
along with veges - she gets a total of 15 ounces at dinner.
Supplements are - 1 Glucosamine-/1 Vita E/1 Carlsons Fish oil - she
gets these with each meal.

I am hoping someone can give me some answers/opinions. I always
heard that if your dog is going after another dogs poop then they are
lacking in nutrition.

Why would why my older GSD be going after the other 2 dogs Poop? Is
it becasue I'm feeding Kibble for one meaal and have her ratios
messed up on her raw feeding?

Thanks
Debbie
Teah, Tessa, Rascal

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:07 am ((PST))

"debwilbers" <debwilbers@...> wrote:
>
> I have 3 dogs, 2 GSDs and a Lhasa Apso all females. The older GSD
> Teah 5yrs has been after the other dogs poops.
*****
Debbie, what you need to do is get your dogs off kibble and fully on
whole raw meats, meaty bones and organs. You can ditch the veggies
and all the other inappropriate foods you are feeding, and you can
pare down the supplements to what really matter. And you won't have
a clue as to what supps really matter until you start feeding healthy
real food.

Start at the beginning. Simplify. Poop eating may or may not be
related to diet but feeding a healthier menu is how you can begin to
find out. Poop eating can also be a learned behavior and it can be a
symptom of vaccinosis. And it may be because the poop of other dogs
tastes good. Who the heck am I to say different?

When you are feeding the best species appropriate diet you can, poop
eating may just not be so rewarding. Besides, it's almost always
benign, although surely disgusting.
Chris O

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10a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:27 am ((PST))

"Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
>> I don't know what he can do with one bone as opposed to an attached
> couple of bones? I do throw the rib bones away once he's cleaned
them.
> It takes him all day to do that..so if he had more than one, it
would
> be several days of cleaning the attached bones.
*****
If it takes your guy a whole day to pick clean a single rib, and at
the end of the day if the bone is bare naked but generally unscarred,
there's probably little likelihood he'll bust a tooth. But it could
happen.

Breaking teeth on hard bones and trying to swallow that which should
not be swallowed are the risks IMO, although constipation is possible
and even impacted bone, but that's pretty rare--practically a fluke.
Those are the things you watch out for. But you know your guy
better'n we do. It may simply be that those of us with big dogs are
applying our experiences inappropriately.

> What risks are there with raw rib bones? What bones are best, better
> in your opinion?
*****
I prefer to feed body parts that are meaty enough and big enough and
complicated enough to act as teeth cleaners as well as food. I
generally do not hand out chew bones. Pork necks might be useful for
you. For my 30lb dog, a whole lamb shank provides a lovely meaty
meal and some high quality bone action. For my big Lab, a leg of
lamb might be required (if I can afford it) or a bone-in pork
shoulder roast.

Occasionally I will give my dogs whole cow feet to work on. These
take several hours to dismantle to bare bone condition. But if a rib
bone takes all day for your dog, you certainly don't need cow feet to
keep him amused!
Chris O

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11a. Re: eadible bones in pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:58 am ((PST))

"atmanandadevotee" <atmanandadevotee@...> wrote:
> what are eadible bones in pork ?
*****
Depending on the dog, all pork bones are edible. Big dogs will
generally be able to eat more of the bones than small dogs, and of
course the youngsters, the seniors and those with poor teeth or weak
jaws will be able to eat fewer bones. But every pork bone is useful,
somehow, one way or another.

what are wreck bones in pork ?
*****
Theoretically none. But that doesn't stop reality from stepping in.
The only guarantees are death and taxes, no? In most cases though,
commercial pork bones (coming from very young pigs) are not
considered wreck bones. Logically you would want to match your dog's
ability to the meaty bones you feed.

> I just bought half a pork and would like to know what let them eat
or
> not ?
*****
Unless the half is from a cantankerous old sow or boar, you should be
able feed all parts of a pig to your dogs. They'll eat what they
want and leave what they don't want or can't eat.
Chris O

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12. Lola
Posted by: "rolypolyloly" einafets83@gmail.com rolypolyloly
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:10 am ((PST))

Hi everyone...
I've been feeding raw meaty bones to my Lola, a 6 year-old German
Shepard/golden retriever mix, for just over a week now. Her first meal
my husband splurged and bought her a t-bone steak. She loved it. She
didn't hesitate in taking that or the chicken quarters we've since
been feeding her all this week. When you ask her if she is "hungry"
she gets so excited! Any time I get into the fridge she thinks it is
for her.
Lola weighs 74 lbs. This is her "ideal" weight. She could gain or
lose a pound without problems, but she looks good and is toned in all
the right spots. If I feed 2-3% her ideal weight, which is recommended
by most of you, I'll be feeding her about 1.5 to 2.2lbs of food a day.
I feed her once in the morning and once in the evening. I split the
total weight between the two meals.

I have several questions. Please feel free to answer one or all of
them. I will even number them for ease of following along and replying.

1. I understand that all poultry bones, pork, lamb, and goat bones are
okay to feed. What about beef bones? Are those okay? We did give her
the t-bone, and she had no problems with it. Was it wrong to give her
a t-bone steak? What about rodents like guinea pigs? (I'd really just
like to make myself a list of bones NOT to feed) What about necks?
Some of you say they are a chocking hazard and never to feed bones
like turkey necks, while others say do feed them these.

2. In the beginning, most of you say to start with something simple
and bland like chicken leg quarters. We have done this, but by doing
so, she is getting bone with every meal. I've read that dogs only need
about 10% (just a guide I understand) of bone a week, but is it okay
for her to eat the bone every meal?

3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
makes sense, so I've been cutting it off. I've also been cutting off
all of the skin too. Do I need to do this or is it nutritious in any
way? What about fur? If I were to buy her a guinea pig, as suggested
in one post I read, do I need to skin it?

4. Lola's meals so far have been pretty easy for her to manage. If we
were to give her something, a goat leg for example, that she didn't
finish in one meal, how is best to save it? Should I wrap it up and
put it back in the fridge or freezer or just leave it out for her to
gnaw on? She'll know best when she's hungry, I'm sure, but I really
don't want her to eat all day long. What do you do?

5. How do you feed vegetables? I give her whole carrots and vegetables
I eat with dinner, but it is really because she begs. I can't say no
to that little face and those eyes! How do I get the most nutrition
out of fruits and veggies for her? Besides grapes, onion, and avocado,
are there any fruits and veggies that she should NOT eat? She won't
touch bananas or lettuce. Are there any fruits and vegetables that are
particularly good for her?

6. She is also getting yogurt, which she loves, beans, and has had an
egg. Any other protein rich sources that you feed your furry kids?

7. We bought a salmon fillet and gave it to her, but she just spit it
out and looked at us like we were stupid. We did get her to eat it,
but she did not want to. Maybe she just doesn't like salmon. I don't.
Is canned tuna okay to give her? Does it have the same health
benefits as a whole fish? Is there another fish that your dogs enjoy

Thanks in advance for all of your advice. Happy New Year!
-Stefanie (Lola's stomach thanks you too.)

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