Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, August 29, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11975

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: costrowski75

2.1. Re: constipation
From: Linda Edgington

3a. Re: Week 2
From: crhyne39

4a. can I feed another protein early?
From: massonrita
4b. Re: can I feed another protein early?
From: Nathalie Poulin

5. Stewing duck, sharp bones?
From: Sonja

6.1. Re: rec/wreck bones (was: legumes Unhealthy?)
From: Denise and David Spotila

7a. Re: amount of calcium
From: Nathalie Poulin

8a. I'm getting discouraged
From: Linda Edgington
8b. Re: I'm getting discouraged
From: Monica

9a. Intro - Newbie
From: Renate Hotchkiss
9b. Re: Intro - Newbie
From: Brandi Bryant

10a. Rawfeeding Small Dogs
From: Jeanne Faletti
10b. Re: Rawfeeding Small Dogs
From: Michelle LaFay
10c. Re: Rawfeeding Small Dogs
From: Denise Strother

11a. Backpacking - Dehydrated meat?
From: Lori Poirier

12a. Please help! How to feed a 1.5lb puppy??
From: Monica
12b. Re: Please help! How to feed a 1.5lb puppy??
From: chaparraltrail

13. The Care and Feeding of Mastiffs
From: Marisa Ammons

14a. Re: This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
From: cmhausrath

15a. Re: Lily Update
From: Carrie Kelly

16a. Confused
From: dawn_rescue

17a. Re: Losing Hair
From: susan holbeck
17b. Re: Losing Hair
From: Carol Wimmer

18a. Re: This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
From: Brandi Bryant


Messages
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1a. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >I don't feed my dogs hooves because hooves are not big enough,
>
> No,Chris.It IS Huge! The size is about palm size or more.andhalf of
hooves are weighing 5lb and other half is about 5lb the web says and
it is real heavy big ones.
>
> Is this small?? I have never seen hooves other than the things at
pets' mart(theirs are quite small),so,my judging will be different.
*****
Holy moly! No, that's not small at all! I tried enlarging the
picture on the Hare Today page but could not. Sounds like you have
made a great score. These are not at all like any cow hooves I've
met. Good for you!

I don't think I'll be telling my dogs about Palette's good fortune.
Chris O


>
> But yes,I wait till this weekends and I report back to you all.
>
> Hopefully,she will enjoy that.
>
> thanks,
>
> yassy
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (25)
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2.1. Re: constipation
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

In the last 5 days Giz has had, chicken thighs, to whick I took most of the skin off, I was worried about diarrhea, and went the other way instead. He had gizzards which I fed as one meal, and large pieces of beef stew meat. Oh and just a dot of liver. Today there has been no poop, so far. I am feeding him twice a day, cause I feed Sass (cat) twice a day. I would love to get her to eat once a day, but she doesn't eat all of it at one sitting. Linda
Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote: Linda,

Sounds fun! :-)

I don't think you've said exactly what you're feeding yet. If you
give details, we can help you better.

The general idea is to replicate/assemble a whole prey animal, which
is usually around 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organs. The 10% bone
doesn't mean 10% of his meals have bone in them, but that about 10%
of his intake is edible bone. This is just something to keep in mind
over the long term. You don't need to worry about meals being
perfect, or be calculating all the time. But that helped me to
visualize the amount of meat, bone, and organs to feed. That said,
some dogs do better with more or less bone, also, so it's just an
approximation. You can buy whole chickens, cut them up, and feed
them--there you've got some whole prey! If you buy chicken parts,
just know that legs and wings are bonier than breasts, so you can
alternate those with breasts, or with some boneless meats maybe.
When that's going well, you can start adding in more variety.

You and he will get the hang of this. There is often an adjustment
period, and a learning curve. Kibble has fillers and bulking agents
which regulate the stool, but it's not healthy, as you know.

Keep asking questions,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...>
wrote:
>
> he is actually straining to poop and I have to "pinch" it out.
Gross, I know. But on other times it is loose or sticks to his hair
anyway. He has had more baths than a dog should have I'm sure. Yes
he has prob had more bone than just meat. How often should bone be
fed? Once a week? or more.


---------------------------------
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Check out fun summer activities for kids.

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Messages in this topic (38)
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3a. Re: Week 2
Posted by: "crhyne39" crhyne39@bellsouth.net crhyne39
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))


> ******Yes, I have 2 suggestions. First, I would still stick pretty
> heavily to the chicken since they are doing well with it, but you
> could try pork or beef as a next option. (Lamb, venison, etc. tends
> to be richer so wouldn't be my first choice). The second suggestion
> I have is to definitely cut back some from the 3% when you try
> the "new" meat. You will want to know whether it was the meat that
> gave runny stools, not the amount, if you have a problem. You could
> always do a bit of chicken and a bit of something else too if really
> concerned. Not sure the size of your dogs, but pork shoulders work
> good for my big guys.
>
> Marguerita
>
Thanks, the three dogs are a APBT (60lbs), English Setter/Lab cross
(60lbs), and a Chiuahuah/Jack Russell cross (16lbs). I have a cow
tongue for them in the fridge. I guess I can add some to the chicken
and see how they do.
Chris R.

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. can I feed another protein early?
Posted by: "massonrita" johnmasson@look.ca massonrita
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))


Hi All,

I started feeding my Standard Poodle raw last weekend and things are
going great! I"ve been giving him half a chicken at each of his two
feedings each day this week thus far. His stool looks a bit dry with
some bone in it which I understand will start to digest better as his
digestive juices develope better. I've been adjusting his meat ratio a
bit to accomodate for the dry stool so I expect things to look a bit
softer in the morning. He seems to be adjusting very well to the new
regime. My question is can I introduce pork as a new protein prior to
the full week since he's doing so well ( he seems to be a bit bored with
the chicken compared to the first two days he got it). I was thinking
of giving him some pork shoulder and necks on friday along with a bit of
liver and heart, am I moving too fast?

Thanks in advance for the groups expert advice,

Rita and Revo in T.O

(you can always appreciate more)


Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: can I feed another protein early?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Hey,

I figured since my dog was a pup and took so well to
the meat that I had given her, I fed her chicken for
about 2-3 days, then started her on goat, pork and
lamb, all within the first week. I also went with
bone-in turkey breast.
While I had to contend with a little loose stool, it
really was worth it.
Now she eats whatever raw I put in front her (except
liver, which has to be frozen for her to even THINK
about eating it).
I think it's up to you to gauge how your dog reacts.
If you think your dog is up for it, then by all means,
give'r!

Nathalie

My question is can I introduce pork as a
> new protein prior to
> the full week since he's doing so well ( he seems to
> be a bit bored with
> the chicken compared to the first two days he got
> it). I was thinking
> of giving him some pork shoulder and necks on friday
> along with a bit of liver and heart, am I moving too
fast?

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5. Stewing duck, sharp bones?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:18 pm ((PDT))

Are bones from stewing duck (older duck) more brittle and sharp than those of a regular old chicken? When I was cutting up a duck for the first time a few weeks ago I noticed it, and noticed the same thing on a second one I cut up yesterday. Has anyone had any problems feeding a whole older duck? Normally I wouldn't be concerned, but i gashed myself pretty good a few times and that has never happened on a chicken....

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6.1. Re: rec/wreck bones (was: legumes Unhealthy?)
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

My guy's have a great workout with a untrimmed beef brisket, if I really want to keep them busy big beef rib slabs.

David and Denise Spotila


Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (29)
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7a. Re: amount of calcium
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

What do you mean by calcium? Are you giving them
supplements?
What exactly do you feed your dogs?

Nathalie


> Just wondering if anyone has experinced this. One of
> my dogs seems very
> sensitive to calcium levels in her food. She gets
> very dry stools if
> she has too much. My other girl seems to do fine no
> matter the amount
> of calcium, sometimes she gets as much or more than
> the other one.
>

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com


Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. I'm getting discouraged
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

Now after a bout of hard of poop we are at a soft poop. Is there a happy medium here somewhere? I'm tired of cleaning up dog butt. I had some babywipes left over from my grandson that were all dried up and put warm water over them and am using that. My poor little boy fur baby, he is soo embarrased. I'm going to give him *another* bath and go to the groomers and have his butt shaved. Maybe that will help in the clean up part, but I can't wait to get him into regular, healthy poops. So for two days he has had just meat, cause he couldn't poop, now back to bones? I just don't know what to do anymore.

Linda

PS,,,,,,,,my cat switched over like a trooper. But she is much younger, just turned 1 year old and Giz has had 7 years of crap in a bag. Poor baby!


---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: I'm getting discouraged
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Linda. I have one dog (Keeshond, 4yrs raw, 60lbs) who is
NOTORIOUSLY sensitive in the BM department. It can definitely be
frustrating.

He needs bone at every meal. The chicken quarter ratio seems to work
really well. If I give him something bonier like ribs, I'll add in a
little (LITTLE - like ONE!)boneless pork loin chop (small) or I'll
use that opportunity to add in the gizzards, heart, liver etc. in
small amounts.

He has NEVER tolerated an all meat meal. Its just not in his makeup.
We watch his stools closely..if they start to look dry, we add
organs/extra meat. If they look loose pork neck bones or ribs will
fix the problem.

It all comes down to hit or miss, and understanding your dog's
digestive track.

FWIW...my other dog (Same breed, same size, age 8) can eat anything,
anytime with no bowel upsets. So they are all obviously different.

Monica in IL


Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Intro - Newbie
Posted by: "Renate Hotchkiss" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:50 pm ((PDT))

I'm not sure what the proper etiquette is on this list, intro or not, but
I'm new here. I am owned by a poodle/border collie cross (10yo) and 2 shih
tzus both just over a year but totally unrelated and came to me almost a
year apart. I also foster for Tiny Paws Dog Rescue, Canada. A new foster
is really into raw feeding and that got me very interested. I've spend a
few hours reading Jane's info and the links quoted on her site. I just had
a gut feeling this is where I need to go next. One of my tzus is really
loving agility so I want her in prime condition. So I came looking for more
information and also about switch-over programs (they're all on Canidae now
- the 2 fosters at the moment are tzus that have been fed exclusively
chicken wieners and ham sandwich spread for the last year, since the
previous owner got them). I've searched the messages and learned that
cold-turkey is the way to go, but these 2 fosters are a digestive mess as it
is (I've only had them a couple of days) and I've been trying to wean them
over to the Canidae.

Oh, I also have 2 cats, one too fat and one too thin - both on Felidae.

So if anyone has any immediate comments or advice, or scolding, or whatever,
please feel free. I'm very happy to be here and hope to learn lots, and
hopefully in time be able to give back too.
Thanks for having me.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Intro - Newbie
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))

***AND THE MODERATORS WILL REMIND YOU: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!***


Hi, I kinda new also, but I've learned A LOT from this group and yes
you made the right choice by joining! They're GREAT!

They will tell you to start out with chicken - whole chickens cut them
into portions and feed them to your dogs. Or anything chicken
breasts, leg quarters, thighs. Stay on chicken for a good week or
two, if they're doing alright with that then you can add another
protein - like turkey or pork.

Feed twice a day, if not once is alright. You want to feed 2 - 3% of
your dogs body weight - if they are skinny feed a little more or if
they are "fluffy" as they call it here feed them less. You want to
feed 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ. Be careful with organs - liver
is better (did i get that right, guys?) - heart is great for them ???
when giving organs for the first time only little bits at a time. It
can cause diaherra if you give too much.

Have left anything out? If I have they will fill in the blanks or
give you more information along with what i just gave you.

OH, and they will tell you not to think so much!!!

Hang in there, good luck
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK


On 8/29/07, Renate Hotchkiss <renate.tideswell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm not sure what the proper etiquette is on this list, intro or not, but
> I'm new here. I am owned by a poodle/border collie cross (10yo) and 2 shih
> tzus both just over a year but totally unrelated and came to me almost a
> year apart. I also foster for Tiny Paws Dog Rescue, Canada. A new foster
> is really into raw feeding and that got me very interested. I've spend a
> few hours reading Jane's info and the links quoted on her site. I just had
> a gut feeling this is where I need to go next. One of my tzus is really
> loving agility so I want her in prime condition. So I came looking for more
> information and also about switch-over programs (they're all on Canidae now
> - the 2 fosters at the moment are tzus that have been fed exclusively
> chicken wieners and ham sandwich spread for the last year, since the
> previous owner got them). I've searched the messages and learned that
> cold-turkey is the way to go, but these 2 fosters are a digestive mess as it
> is (I've only had them a couple of days) and I've been trying to wean them
> over to the Canidae.
>
> Oh, I also have 2 cats, one too fat and one too thin - both on Felidae.
>
> So if anyone has any immediate comments or advice, or scolding, or whatever,
> please feel free. I'm very happy to be here and hope to learn lots, and
> hopefully in time be able to give back too.
> Thanks for having me.
>
> --
> Renate
> 'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com


Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Rawfeeding Small Dogs
Posted by: "Jeanne Faletti" jackienjeanne@talktalk.net
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi All,

My name is Jeanne and I am new to this list and to rawfeeding. I have an 8 year old bulldog, Floyd, and a 5 year old Chihuahua, Kushti. I am drawn towards rawfeeding but have two reservations. The first is that both dogs are healthy i.e. no allergies or recurrent illnesses, and I keep remembering the old adage 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'! The second is, is it suitable for the Chihuahua, well she's a cross with a border terrier, I have been told by another Chi owner that she's been told that their teeth are not strong enough to chew bones. Nevertheless I do give her a bone now and then but she only pulls the meat off then buries it in the garden. When it has grown sufficient maggots she'll then have another go at it if I don't find it first!

Could someone advise me on these two points and suggest what would be the best way to start changing them over. The both like raw meat and welcome their bones, but I'm not sure of the portion sizes for them. Kushti is 6 lbs in weight and Floyd is 85 lbs ? (34 kgs). The main trouble I am likely to find is that the bones I get from the butcher have virtually no meat on them. Chicken drumsticks and wings would be Ok for the small dog, but apart from these pigs trotters seem to be the only meaty types on offer.

I'd be glad of any advice you have to offer.

Jeanne.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Rawfeeding Small Dogs
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jeanne,

I am sure you will get many responses as there are several toy dog owners on
here who feed raw. Me included! Now my chi mix is a bit bigger than yours at
a semi-portly 8lbs, but since doxies are also known for poor mouths & Pixie
does in fact have a couple of missing teeth in her 9yr old mouth, I feel
safe in saying I know where you are coming from. However, Pixie can make
quite the dent in anything I give her. In fact she is the one gulper in our
household and a chicken leg is about as small as I dare go with her for fear
of her inhaling it. She can do some major damage to a turkey leg (even the
ends of the bones) and a pork shoulder (though she has never gotten far
enough through it to hit bone lol). We feed her exactly like the big dogs
just slightly smaller portions (apparently not smaller enough given her
tubbiness lol) and she never has given us reason to anything different.

Now my mom also feeds raw (finally yay!!) and she has a purebred chi who is
lucky if he weighs 5lbs soaking wet. He is 13, she just went raw a few
months ago and his mouth is crappy crappy. He is willing and able to handle
a chicken leg or thigh bone and all but clearly prefers wings over anything
else, even the hunks of meat mom gives him to balance out the high bone
ratio in wings. He is picky though, it is not that he is unable to eat
anything else, he just likes to play mom and she feels good giving him what
he likes best. I'm just happy she's finally feeding raw lol.

So my point is to play it by ear. Think lots of meat on some bone. Little
dogs are fun because small hunks of meat can be a big workout meal for them,
heck a leg quarter is nearly as big as Sammy lol. See what she likes and
what she can and will handle and go from there. Trust me when I say that no
matter how good of condition you think your dogs are in now, after you have
been feeding raw for a while you will look at them in a whole new light and
see a whole new definition for "good condition".

On 8/29/07, Jeanne Faletti <jackienjeanne@talktalk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> My name is Jeanne and I am new to this list and to rawfeeding. I have an
> 8 year old bulldog, Floyd, and a 5 year old Chihuahua, Kushti. I am drawn
> towards rawfeeding but have two reservations. The first is that both dogs
> are healthy i.e. no allergies or recurrent illnesses, and I keep
> remembering the old adage 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'! The second is,
> is it suitable for the Chihuahua, well she's a cross with a border
> terrier, I have been told by another Chi owner that she's been told that
> their teeth are not strong enough to chew bones. Nevertheless I do give her
> a bone now and then but she only pulls the meat off then buries it in the
> garden. When it has grown sufficient maggots she'll then have another go at
> it if I don't find it first!
>
> Could someone advise me on these two points and suggest what would be the
> best way to start changing them over. The both like raw meat and welcome
> their bones, but I'm not sure of the portion sizes for them. Kushti is 6
> lbs in weight and Floyd is 85 lbs ? (34 kgs). The main trouble I am likely
> to find is that the bones I get from the butcher have virtually no meat on
> them. Chicken drumsticks and wings would be Ok for the small dog, but apart
> from these pigs trotters seem to be the only meaty types on offer.
>
> I'd be glad of any advice you have to offer.
>
> Jeanne.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


--
Michelle LaFay
Pawsitively Caring Pet Sitting
http://www.pawsitivelycaring.com
pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Rawfeeding Small Dogs
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


Hi Jeanne,
The other Chi owner is ignorant on the topic of suitability of raw
for Chi's. I run a dog daycare and foster pits and chihuahuas. I am
feeding two five pounders right now. I just found a home for a 3.5
lb Chi with a really bad overbite. With his mouth closed, you could
see all of his front teeth. His bottom jaw was only about 2/3 the
length of the top. He eats raw with no problems. You may think your
dog is healthy, but, you will be surprised at the differences you
see after a month or so on raw. The smaller dogs can't eat some of
the larger bones that bigger dogs can, but that's to be expected. My
two can eat all bones in a game hen or chicken. Even on older
chickens like roasters or baking hens, the only bones they can't eat
all of are the leg and thigh bones. My Chi's eat game hens,
chickens, goat, lamb, pork, beef, rabbit, squirrel, duck,venison and
everything else I can get my hands on. Go to the groups home page
and do a search for toy dogs, small dogs, etc. You will get a ton of
posts on this subject. Denise

> My name is Jeanne and I am new to this list and to rawfeeding. I
have an 8 year old bulldog, Floyd, and a 5 year old Chihuahua,
Kushti. I am drawn towards rawfeeding but have two reservations.
The first is that both dogs are healthy i.e. no allergies or
recurrent illnesses, and I keep remembering the old adage 'if it
ain't broke don't fix it'! The second is, is it suitable for the
Chihuahua, well she's a cross with a border terrier, I have been
told by another Chi owner that she's been told that their teeth are
not strong enough to chew bones. Nevertheless I do give her a bone
now and then but she only pulls the meat off then buries it in the
garden. When it has grown sufficient maggots she'll then have
another go at it if I don't find it first!
>
> Could someone advise me on these two points and suggest what would
be the best way to start changing them over. The both like raw meat
and welcome their bones, but I'm not sure of the portion sizes for
them. Kushti is 6 lbs in weight and Floyd is 85 lbs ? (34 kgs).
The main trouble I am likely to find is that the bones I get from
the butcher have virtually no meat on them. Chicken drumsticks and
wings would be Ok for the small dog, but apart from these pigs
trotters seem to be the only meaty types on offer.
>
> I'd be glad of any advice you have to offer.
>
> Jeanne.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Backpacking - Dehydrated meat?
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

I am headed out for a 120 mile trek in just a few days...so I HEAR YA about every ounce counting!

There are a number of posts in the archives, which gave me some good ideas. You need to join Yahoo groups first, though. One thing to make sure of before you go is that your dog will actually eat the dehydrated food, since he's never had it.

OTOH...I have taken numerous Boy Scouts out on their first outing, and by the third day out, you could sprinkle cinnamon on the dirt, and they'd eat it! So maybe this won't be an issue for your dog.

HAPPY TRAILS!

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Please help! How to feed a 1.5lb puppy??
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT))

This is my second post...I think I got lost in the legume discussion
LOL!

I am currently rawfeeding two 60lb keeshonden for the last 4yrs. So I
am not new to the prospect of feeding this way.

However, this pomeranian I am picking up tomorrow night only weighs
1.5 lbs and I am lost how to feed her. She is microscopic!!!!! She
will eventually weigh about 5lbs which I would be more comfortable
with feed-wise). I am really not sure how to feed her as she is SO
tiny.

Its my understanding that this breed is prone to hypoglycemia,
particularly as a puppy, so they need to eat frequently. How in the
world would you break down that tiny meal into several portions?

YIKES!

I am open to all suggestions! I really need help figuring this out or
I won't be able to take her off the puppy kibble comfortably.

Thanks
Monica

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Please help! How to feed a 1.5lb puppy??
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))


> However, this pomeranian I am picking up tomorrow night only weighs
> 1.5 lbs and I am lost how to feed her. She is microscopic!!!!!
> I really need help figuring this out or
> I won't be able to take her off the puppy kibble comfortably.

I have a 75 pound Lab, so do not have experience. But if I were to
bring such a tiny baby home, was not comfortable about big pieces, did
not know how to do it "right," AND...did not get a knowledgeable
response from others on this list, I would feed ground or bite sized
raw pieces for a few days, rather than canned or kibble pet food,
until I was able to figure it out.

Perhaps someone with tiny dog experience will have better advice, but
there is no need to purchase kibble, when you have no plan to use it
for your puppy's permanent diet anyway.

Lori

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. The Care and Feeding of Mastiffs
Posted by: "Marisa Ammons" scoobysnax101@yahoo.com scoobysnax101
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi folks - I have been reading a few days and have
learned a lot! Thank you for all the wisdom. I have
two mastiffs and a GSMD and we are getting ready to
switch to raw this weekend (wanted to know what I was
doing first).

I see that some of you are feeding giant breeds and I
get the principle that they may only need 1-1 1/2% of
their body weight (which is good, b/c that would be a
lot of food otherwise!).

What are some sample mastiff, dane or other
giant-sized meals? One of my boys has eaten a whole
chicken for an unexpected snack, so I know he can, but
that is too much on a daily basis (one of our own
flock disappeared and then we found feet in poop).

Just looking for ideas - I see a lot about sizing for
small dogs, but would love some ideas about how big
the pieces are that the really big guys eat. I worry
that they will be eating me out of house and home!

Thanks for the help. We are looking forward to
starting.

Marisa


Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

"pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...> wrote:


> Anyways, recommendations on a future plan of attack for the next
> turkey I buy since turkey was a bit hit with both dogs?


Hey Kerry,

I think you done good with your first turkey! It takes a little
while to figure out how to chop stuff into manageable parts. I too
have to whack birds into meal-ish sized pieces, b/c my old fart dog
doesn't do well with oversized meals anymore. (Alas.)

I would basically advise treating a turkey like an oversized
chicken. I attack both with just kitchen shears (and occasionally a
bit of bare-hands ripping -- sorry, that might be a bit much for you,
but I've found it the best way to break through the breastbone). My
usual approach is to go straight down the backbone (just to one side
or the other, so you're not trying to cut through the spine itself).
Then I repeat the midline cut down the bottom half of the bird (the
breast), which is where the leverage / bone-breaking is most
helpful. Once I've got two half-turkeys, I basically make leg
quarters & breast quarters, just by cutting behind the flap of breast
meat. Usually I also take off the wings and the drums (figure out
where the joints are & cut there, so you don't have to go through any
bones) and pair those up with some of the extra breast meat that I
trim off the breast.

Sounds like a lot of work, but it really isn't -- I can do a chicken
lickety-split, and a turkey takes only a minute longer. I didn't
used to go to so much effort (see
http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/12/19 )
but Griff now prefers to get no more than a couple pounds a day,
without too much bone in any one serving. I figure he's old enough
to have earned some mollycoddling, so he gets it =)

HTH --

-- sandy & griffin (who are you calling an old fart?!)

Messages in this topic (4)
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15a. Re: Lily Update
Posted by: "Carrie Kelly" winencandy@yahoo.ca winencandy
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I have tried frozen whole sardines (thawed) she didn't know what to do with them - I'll try again, only I'll cut up part of it so she can taste it. The other day I gave her a pork shoulder roast (after we'd cut off most of the meat to cook for our supper) It was fun watching her try to tackle a piece of meat/bone that was about the same size as her. She worked at it for about 3 meals, then I gave it to out lab X to finish. I've asked about Game Hens at my local grocery store - they can order them - they don't normally stock them.

BTW, she had a vet apt today. After a lot of research, I had decided to give her just one puppy vac. (Distemper/Parvo). So, the vet said, "Oh she's 4 months, she can have her lepto & rabies shot too." I said "No thank you, my breeder wants to wait till she's 6 months for the rabies, and I don't want the lepto". No problem.

Lily weighs 4 lbs @ 16 weeks. She asked what I fed her. I said "Raw". She asked "BARF?" and I said "No, prey model". She said "P.R.E.Y.?" like it was a new acrynom. and I said "meat, bones, & organs". She asked if I prepared it fresh every day. I said "yes", she said, "Good 'cause you have to be carefull about e-coli and samenilla with some of these diets". That was all she said. I didn't go into any details about how I "prepared" Lily's food (open package - feed dog), 'cause she didn't ask. Maybe I'll save that for another time.

Carrie K


WinenCandy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (6)
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16a. Confused
Posted by: "dawn_rescue" dteuscher@tx.rr.com dawn_rescue
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

I started feeding raw two weeks ago and all is going really well. I am
planning on feeding beef next and I am confused. Are ribs okay to feed
with the bone in? I understand no knuckle bones etc. What cuts of
beef can I feed? Also, since they did okay with the chicken, can I add
the beef to the chicken or just do beef alone? One more- my big guy
has really flaky (big flakes) skin. He is losing his undercoat right
now. He had it before we switched to raw. Should I give it more time
or should I be giving him fish oil?

Thanks in advance,
Dawn

Messages in this topic (23)
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17a. Re: Losing Hair
Posted by: "susan holbeck" nu1edie@yahoo.com nu1edie
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

Hello! I am new to the sight and only slightly less new to raw feeding. I've been feeding raw for just less than a week. I live in AZ as well (S Phoenix) and have noticed an extreme increase in shedding. I don't attribute that to the diet as much as the heat, but who knows! I have only fed raw chicken so far. I started with the raw meat, (meat only), mixed with veges and a ton of rice. I didn't know at the time that rice and veges are a no-no! That's why I'm glad I found this sight!

I also didn't know to limit the amount of bone he's been eating. I've been feeding chicken breasts and leg quarters. So I need to give more meat! In addition he's a 100 pound Rottweiler and I now realize I need to feed "BIG". All those parts are fine and dandy, but far too easy for him to scarf down! I've learned so much from you all!!

I do have a question. What is the meaning of all the acronyms? For example, IMO and FWIW...

Thanks!
Susan and Oswald
aka Ozzy the Cowardly Dog

my3jcs <my3jcs@yahoo.com> wrote:
"I'm in Az. and it's been very
hot, but the excessive shedding just started."



---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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17b. Re: Losing Hair
Posted by: "Carol Wimmer" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kerry!

I'm in Mesa and roasting at 113 today! I was hoping
the hair loss problem was from the diet. I'm looking
forward to seeing their beautiful new coats. It's
amazing what good food can do. BTW, I have a sister
in the Tucson area who also feeds raw. She is going
to join Tucson Raw (I think that's the name). They
get some great deals buying in bulk.

Thanks!

Carol
(Rex,Rocky,Mack)
--- pelirojita <kerrymurray7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Where in AZ are you? I'm in Tucson.
>
> Anyways, we started feeding raw at the beginning of
> July and though my
> golden retriever and lab mix do shed quite a bit,
> the shedding
> significantly accelerated with the diet change. My
> experience is that
> the hair coming in underneath is softer and shinier
> then the hair that
> was shed and it is just the body's way of showing
> its improved health.


____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

18a. Re: This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

>>>I tackled a whole raw turkey for the first time a few months ago and got
struck about where you got stuck. I got the wings, thighs, breast and legs
off but was left with "the rest". <<<

It's funny that this topic come up, because just the other day I was cutting
up a turkey also. And wondered if I was doing it right. I cut it down the
middle, with shears and a knife. Cut off the breasts with all the meat, got
the wings, and the turkey legs. I've given mine some turkey with their
chicken mostly just the meat, and it doesn't seem to cause any problems.
So, I've gone the EXTRA step with my dogs and given them an turkey!!! I'm
anxious to give them the turkey legs...we'll see how it goes

Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 8/29/07, Sonja <ladyver@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11974

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Week 2
From: crhyne39
1b. Re: Week 2
From: Olga
1c. Re: Week 2
From: mgitaville
1d. Re: Week 2
From: Laurie Swanson

2a. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
From: steph.sorensen
2b. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
From: coriowen

3a. Re: Do you all rotate Fish oil Brand??
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: leg quarters
From: carnesbill

5a. Losing Hair
From: my3jcs
5b. Re: Losing Hair
From: Laurie Swanson
5c. Re: Losing Hair
From: pelirojita

6a. This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
From: pelirojita
6b. Re: This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
From: Sonja

7a. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: john payne
7b. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: pelirojita
7c. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: Yasuko herron
7d. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: Laurie Swanson
7e. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: individual pork rib bones..quick question
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: individual pork rib bones..quick question
From: Laurie Swanson

9.1. Re: rec/wreck bones (was: legumes Unhealthy?)
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. Re: Back to raw
From: beckie716

11a. Re: woohoo!! woot! woot! woohoo!!!
From: Melissa

12a. Re: feeding mostly chicken
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. Re: Different types of meat
From: Laurie Swanson


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Week 2
Posted by: "crhyne39" crhyne39@bellsouth.net crhyne39
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

I have been rawfeeding my 3 dogs for a week now. Mostly leg
quarters
and they are doing great and loving it. I currently am feeding 3%
of
> their weight every morning. May back down on the amount I am
feeding,
> but am not sure yet. Runny stools are not an issue any more.
Anyone
> have suggestions as to what I should feed in week #2?.

Thanks,
Chris R, Atlanta Ga

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Week 2
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

> Anyone
> have suggestions as to what I should feed in week #2?.

How about some turkey or pork? Both have some nice edible bones.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Week 2
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "crhyne39" <crhyne39@...> wrote:
>
> I have been rawfeeding my 3 dogs for a week now. Mostly leg
> quarters
> and they are doing great and loving it. I currently am feeding 3%
> of
> > their weight every morning. May back down on the amount I am
> feeding,
> > but am not sure yet. Runny stools are not an issue any more.
> Anyone
> > have suggestions as to what I should feed in week #2?.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris R, Atlanta Ga
>

******Yes, I have 2 suggestions. First, I would still stick pretty
heavily to the chicken since they are doing well with it, but you
could try pork or beef as a next option. (Lamb, venison, etc. tends
to be richer so wouldn't be my first choice). The second suggestion
I have is to definitely cut back some from the 3% when you try
the "new" meat. You will want to know whether it was the meat that
gave runny stools, not the amount, if you have a problem. You could
always do a bit of chicken and a bit of something else too if really
concerned. Not sure the size of your dogs, but pork shoulders work
good for my big guys.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Week 2
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

You could add in some bone-in breasts for a slower transition, or
venture into a new protein if you're more adventurous. Turkey, pork,
beef, goat, lamb, fish. If you add in a new protein, you might want to
just pick one, and you might want to add a little bit to the chicken
meals and see how that goes.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "crhyne39" <crhyne39@...> wrote:

> Anyone
> > have suggestions as to what I should feed in week #2?.
>
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:34 pm ((PDT))

Chris wrote:
>
> There is one issue though that you should consider at this early
> stage of raw feeding. And that's loose stools. Feeding small is
> most likely to avert loose stools, feeding "big" may produce
looser
> stools than you are accustomed to. I really do recommend you flex
> your feeding options, but you may have to introduce the concept
> somewhat gently to your dogs. For newbie dogs, perhaps the single
> most common cause of loose stools is feeding too much food.
>
> Another week or so of small parts may be in order while you learn
> more about your dogs' digestive abilities. Gradually introduce
them
> to larger chicken hunks--a half bird is less likely to cause
> digestive upheaval than a whole bird but it still allows for
creative
> meals.
> Chris O

**********************

Thanks for all the good info! Makes sense, now that I think about
it. Since I just recently noticed how hard, small and dry their
poop is, I think they may deal okay with a whole chicken. I am
definitely willing to try it. They poop so much less on this diet
than on kibble; it's amazing!

I think I'll stick with my plan of a whole chicken a piece tomorrow
after work, then feeding them a half a one on Saturday.

Thanks again for clearing things up! This cold I have is clogging
my brain! :)

-Steph
Scarlet (we-just-got-free-venison!)
Lucy (what's venison?)
>


Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "coriowen" <COwen98@> wrote:
> > If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I ought to,
once
> > in a while, give my Dachshunds a shot at a whole chicken and pick
it
> > up when I think they have had enough?
> *****
> I recommend it completely, utterly and with complete confidence
that
> your dogs will appreciate the gesture.
>
>
> I have been having a problem
> > with my younger Dachshund because she is a gulper, big time!
> *****
> It has been written here often and not just by me that the best way
to
> feed a gulper is to feed bigger, not smaller. Big Food (which is
of
> course relative to the dog) or less big but more complicated food
will
> slow a dog's progress. In fact, a good complicated and perplexing
body
> part will stop a gulper in its tracks. Sometimes eating can be a
> mindless activity, but at least occasionally a dog should have to
solve
> its meal before it can eat it.
>
> Good for the belly, good for the brain.
>
>
> because I feed them twice a day those amounts make the pieces
> > smaller and they are not getting the chance to really work at it.
> *****
> Yes, you've certainly hit that nail on its head! As soon as you can
get
> your mind around the concept, you should move to one meal a day.
If
> the Dachshunds need two meals a day, make one bigger than the
other.
> Then at least one of the meals may be a challenge.

The reason I am doing the "two times a day" feedings is because we
just starting feeding raw(one week today) and the older Dachshund
threw up bile(the first day) and still has loose stool after a week
and the other Dachshund is still a puppy at 10 mos. and I don't want
to load them up just yet with one huge meal once a day. Otherwise,
the info you gave me will definitely help me in the future once we
are settled in with raw feedings and it is just normal everyday, or
even skip a day every now and then, meals.
>
>
> I > fed my Mastiff and my Doberman frozen chicken quarters and it
> slowed
> > them down immensely, especially my Mastiff, she can almost
swallow an
> > entire whole chicken!
> *****
> I hardly ever feed frozen food and when I do it's unintentional. I
> feed big food to complicate the feeding process and I feed once a
day
> or less. If I have to skip a subsequent day (or two) after a
> particularly engrossing meal, I do.
>
> I believe you should be feeding your big dogs bigger food than leg
> quarters and if your Mastiff sucks down a whole chicken, buy a
larger
> whole chicken and butterfly it. Or rely on turkeys instead of
> chicken. There's nothing magic about chicken.

Again, I am using chicken because we are only a week into feeding raw
and I am not ready to switch them to a different meat yet and they
aren't ready for it, either. I did read on a post you wrote to
another person that you shouldn't have them on any type of a time
schedule for feeding and that is new to me and a great idea. It will
take all 4 of mine to get over the fact that they won't be eating
when they normally do but I have no problem putting them on MY
schedule when I feel like it. I was trying to feed a little earlier
in the day so my older Dachshund would stop waking me up at 4-5am to
go potty because she still has very watery stools. Anyway, I just
keep learning. Thanks so much for the info.
Cori

> Chris O
>


Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: Do you all rotate Fish oil Brand??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,Chris. i don't know if this products fit to your standard,but the
fish oil I am using has no soy in it I think because I checked label
and it does not say soy is included in ingredients list.
>
> You would like to try?
*****
Thank you Yassy, but I am comfortable with the products I have.
Between the Rexall capsules I bought a few days ago and the Timberwolf
Organics liquid SO I have stashed in the freezer, my dogs well supplied.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: leg quarters
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Denise and David Spotila
<brookside_casa@...> wrote:
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't leg quarters approx.
27% bone?

Actually its a little more than that but its not really a big deal
as long as you feed other stuff at other meals. Have been feeding
chicken quarter meals for nearly 5 years now. I also feed meat only
meals and meals with both more and less bone than chicken quarters.
I feed meals of chicken backs only every day. I don't really pay a
lot of attention to the amount of bone. It's not that critical.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. Losing Hair
Posted by: "my3jcs" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:18 pm ((PDT))

Hello!

I am 2 weeks into feeding my guys raw and wondered if hair loss is
something the dogs go through with the change of diet. I have a Boxer
mix, Pit mix and an Am. Staff. They shed very little normally
(especially my pittys), but since going to raw the amount of hair that
comes off in brushing is triple. I've fed chicken, turkey, eggs, just
started pork and they get Omega 3 caps. I'm in Az. and it's been very
hot, but the excessive shedding just started.

Thank you!
Carol
(Rex,Rocky,Mack)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Losing Hair
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carol,

It seems this does come up every now and then. My recollection is that
many dogs lose some hair, but it comes back in more beautiful than
ever. Hopefully that's the case, and maybe some others will respond.
You might want to search the archives here or on RawChat, too.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "my3jcs" <my3jcs@...> wrote:

> I am 2 weeks into feeding my guys raw and wondered if hair loss is
> something the dogs go through with the change of diet.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Losing Hair
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "my3jcs" <my3jcs@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I am 2 weeks into feeding my guys raw and wondered if hair loss is
> something the dogs go through with the change of diet. I have a Boxer
> mix, Pit mix and an Am. Staff. They shed very little normally
> (especially my pittys), but since going to raw the amount of hair that
> comes off in brushing is triple. I've fed chicken, turkey, eggs, just
> started pork and they get Omega 3 caps. I'm in Az. and it's been very
> hot, but the excessive shedding just started.
>
> Thank you!
> Carol
> (Rex,Rocky,Mack)
>
HI Carol,

Where in AZ are you? I'm in Tucson.

Anyways, we started feeding raw at the beginning of July and though my
golden retriever and lab mix do shed quite a bit, the shedding
significantly accelerated with the diet change. My experience is that
the hair coming in underneath is softer and shinier then the hair that
was shed and it is just the body's way of showing its improved health.
I agree that it isn't just the heat since June was way hotter and our
shedding picked up in July with the switch to raw.

I think this is normal and unless you are getting bald patches nothing
to worry about. Though people more experienced then me may have a
more informed opinion.

Best to you,
Kerry
Tucson,AZ

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

So, I thought I had scored when my local health food store had a
free-range, appropriately-fed, minimally-processed (aaaggghhh, I feel
so high-maintenance!!!), 20lb frozen turkey with all the giblets
available for $1.49/lb.

After thawing, I went to cut it up last night since, even though I
feed big, a 20 lb turkey would be about a month's worth of food for
the one of my dogs who is willing to tackle a whole bird (the other
dog gets scared off by anything more than a pound or so).

Well, I was able to get the legs and the wings off with my handy
shears and a little help from a boning knife, but could not find my
way to separate the rest of the bird in to manageable, freezable
parts. Plus my minimally processed bird was bleeding everywhere and
all sorts of slimy things were still attached in the body cavity,
thoroughly scaring and revolting this vegetarian. It looked like a
massacre in my sink (part of my problem, I was trying to cut the bird
up in the sink to limit the mess and spillage), though it was high
entertainment for my dogs who were super excited and totally underfoot
until I sent them both outside with their own turkey legs. My husband
couldn't stop laughing as I guess the look on my face was comical, and
though he is an occasional meat-eater he doesn't like turkey, is still
leery of the whole switch-to-raw, and politely declined to help.

I eventually got enough breast meat off to make a nice meal for my
golden who likes small portions but I still have about 8-10 lbs of
turkey carcass. My lab-mix is game for the whole thing, and he may
just get it that way as I would hate to throw anything out, but won't
it be mighty smelly the second week when he is still eating it?

Anyways, recommendations on a future plan of attack for the next
turkey I buy since turkey was a bit hit with both dogs? I would like
to cut it up in to 1.5-5.0 lb portions. Do I need something other
then my run-of-the-mill shears and boning knife? I am highly visual,
can someone point me to a picture that would help me know where and
how to cut?

Could I feed a 20lb turkey to my dog who should only eat approx 3/4 of
a pound a day? How would that work? Would I refreeze it every so
often since this would be a month of food? Or is it better to just
cut it up?

FYI - I have two dogs, one a golden retriever, one a lab mix. The
golden eats around 1-1.5lbs/day, the lab mix 0.75lbs/day. The golden
so far has refused to eat a whole chicken, but will eat meals cut up
for her, has a tendency to bury the leftovers, which then get dug up
and eaten by my overweight lab-mix, so I try not to give the golden
more than a reasonable portion.

Thank you,
Kerry
Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: This vegetarian met her match in a turkey! Help!
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:42 pm ((PDT))

Ahhhhhh.....I know it's not funny to you at this moment but the visuals I got while reading you post had me in stitches!

I tackled a whole raw turkey for the first time a few months ago and got struck about where you got stuck. I got the wings, thighs, breast and legs off but was left with "the rest". I cut the breast out and saved it for MY dinner (use your shears to cut through, cutting the ribs at the least the meaty part of the breast). If you leave the wing on the breast, fine. So now I had a 3 lbs turkey back to contend with. I tried to bend and break it into sections but it wasn't going to give. I didn't want to use my cleaver because I personally don't like creating sharp bone edges. I put it on the floor for my lab, let her eat about 1/3, then I put it back in the fridge. THe next meal I gave her was boneless, then I let her have the back again and let her eat 1/2 of what was left. I put it back in the fridge. I let her eat the rest the next day, and it worked out well. I didn't have to fight to pull the back apart, and there was no waste! And after 3 days, there was no time for it to get smelly.

Hope this helps....

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM AND SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***


I tried hooves for our 2 dogs, and a day later i smelt this terrible smell in the living room, and here one of them had hidden one under the couch. It was nasty!! I wont do hooves no more cause of it!
B

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>

> I think this picture is the hoove part with some fur around(half
of what I got).Other half was looking like mostly bone,no fur around.
*****
Oops. Oops again. Sorry, Yassy.
You wrote "hooves" I thought "feet" and that was the end of any
constructive comments on my part.

I don't feed my dogs hooves because hooves are not big enough, or
perhaps because I somehow raise enthusiastic gnawers. Either way, I
don't buy them. If Palette takes her time with bones or likes to
nibble and poke about, my guess is she'll be fine with a raw hoof.
Certainly there are lots of folks who are quite happy with them. As
I wrote in the post you initially referred to, cow feet generally are
the only parts I will feed as "rec" bones.

I gave my BC pup a greentripe.com raw hoof when she was teething.
She gnawed aggressively (in a puppy sort of way) on the edges and in
the middle of the night horked up all her hard work.

You should let Palette have a go at her hoof, then report back with
the results.
Chris O


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Messages in this topic (24)
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7b. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:09 pm ((PDT))

> You should let Palette have a go at her hoof, then report back with
> the results.
> Chris O
>

Great topic. The following are available from my local raw buying coop:

Pig feet (not split), 30 lb. $19.80

Beef hoof and femur 25lbs $18.00 (there is a note that says these are
best used as rec bones, maybe implying the other beef feet option is
more meaty?!?)

Beef Skinless Feet 60lb $23.40

I have an 80lb golden, and 40lb lab-mix, both of whom are big chewers
and will happily gnaw away for hours. What would you recommend as a
good start, they have never had feet before but handle beef and pork
and all amounts of bone just fine (p.s. I don't know if I have 60lbs
of freezer space...)

Thanks,
Kerry
Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (24)
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7c. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:17 pm ((PDT))

>I don't feed my dogs hooves because hooves are not big enough,

No,Chris.It IS Huge! The size is about palm size or more.andhalf of hooves are weighing 5lb and other half is about 5lb the web says and it is real heavy big ones.

Is this small?? I have never seen hooves other than the things at pets' mart(theirs are quite small),so,my judging will be different.

But yes,I wait till this weekends and I report back to you all.

Hopefully,she will enjoy that.

thanks,

yassy


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
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7d. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:33 pm ((PDT))

Yassy,

It's so clear how much you love Palette and it's great to hear how
she's doing. Happy Birthday to Palette!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>

> When I looked at her from far side,her fur looked shinier and
looked more vivid in color.
> She stays calm most of the time,taking naps and such but when we
play together both inside the house and outside the house,she look more
energetic.
>
> I thought that changing her diet was best choice I ever made.
>

Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________

7e. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

"pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...> wrote:
> Pig feet (not split), 30 lb. $19.80
*****(
"Not split" is good. These probably are not big ("six inches long
maybe, four inch diameter?), and will have no notable meat to them.
Not meals, but good fun toys; the bones are young and soft. Fatty.


> Beef hoof and femur 25lbs $18.00 (there is a note that says these
are
> best used as rec bones, maybe implying the other beef feet option is
> more meaty?!?)
*****
IMO no beef feet are meaty but some have other interesting
attributes. Without more detail I can only guess these are devoid of
any of the interesting attributes. No sinew, no fat, no skin.
Sounds like bare naked bone attached to a foot. I vote pasadena
unless you get a description to the contrary.


> Beef Skinless Feet 60lb $23.40
*****
Sounds like above sans femur. These might be the "feet" I let my
dogs work on. No hide, no hair, but otherwise intact, maybe three
pounds, not sliced. The body part ends a couple inches north of
the "wrist." Find out if these are whole and how big they are; my
guess is these are sensible for serious gnawers.


> I don't know if I have 60lbs
> of freezer space...)
*****
These defrost into individual units that can stuffed into nooks and
crannies. It's not difficult to distribute 60lb. Hard to remember
where all you stuck them though, when you go looking months later.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (24)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: individual pork rib bones..quick question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:56 pm ((PDT))

"lar07911" <lar07911@...> wrote:
Since she is only
> 17 pounds is it ok to just give them to her individually and not
> attached like some of the reading I have seen?
*****
I think she's able to take on the challenge of a mini-slab of two or
even three ribs. Meals are not just about food, they're about exercise
and entertainment too. FWIW I gave my 10lb cat a single lamb rib
figuring it would take a good long time to clean off. In less than 10
minutes she ate the whole dang thing. So much for challenge.


> > Also, are pork neck bones ok to give her? These too are also cut
and
> in smaller pieces.
*****
IMO these are too small for your dog and not nearly meaty enough. Look
for a larger section of neck bone at Asian or other ethnic markets.
These aren't very meaty either, but they do offer a great workout. You
can add meat to the meal or feed a boneless, meaty next feeding.


> I also found pork brisket with ribs inside. That huge slab of meat
is
> definitely at least 4 meals! Out of the pork I purchased
above...which
> should I introduce first?
*****
These. They are a favorite of mine. Inexpensive, meaty, edible bone,
a nice challenge for a smaller dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: individual pork rib bones..quick question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi there,

What kind of dog do you have? Re: the individual ribs, it depends on
how your dog eats. Sometimes they are more enthusiastic/stupid in
the beginning. I have a 20 lb. Boston with gulping tendencies,
although he's gotten much better over the past several mos. of
feeding this way. I just today fed him a hunk of about 5 pork ribs
together. He stripped some of the meat off and had one rib hanging
there he was working on. He chomped the rib a couple times and it
was down to about 1" square and he swallowed it and had trouble
getting it down. I was nervous, but it was ok.

If your dog is a very dainty eater, you can probably feed single
ribs. But if she's a pretty good chomper and/or possible gulper, I'd
either not feed single ribs, or watch closely, let her work on them a
bit and take them away when they get to possible choking size.
Sometimes they surprise you, though--you think they've got a big hunk
they're working on and the next second, it's gone! :-)

Same thing with the pork neck bones. I don't like them when they're
cut small because they usually have lots of sharp, pointy parts,
too. See if you can get them bigger (ask the butcher/meat dept. to
leave them large).

I'm not familiar with the other cut (pork brisket with ribs), but it
sounds big, which is good! As long as there aren't small, choking-
sized bones inside? You could just put that out and let her eat a
meal, and put it back into the frig/freezer for later.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9.1. Re: rec/wreck bones (was: legumes Unhealthy?)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

I guess you missed my point--the objection is it can ruin their teeth.
And they will be much happier having a healthy mouth and keeping their
teeth. And you can make them just as happy with a goat leg or a lamb's
head or a pig's foot or a rack of ribs or, or, or...(removing any bone
that's too dense at the end, of course). In fact, they might even be
happier with a complicated meal that nets some results (meat, fat,
gristle, etc.) than gnawing on a bare bone for days--who knows?

I'm not trying to deny your dogs their fun. I've just learned the hard
way and many others have too. I'm just trying to save you my
troubles. And, again, there are wonderful and safe ways for them to
get their chewing instincts satisfied.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, tantelin22@... wrote:
>
I just don't see the objection to letting them
> chew on the big bones that make them so happy.


Messages in this topic (28)
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10a. Re: Back to raw
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))


> TC and let me know how you and she progress!
> Giselle
>


Thank you, Giselle! I started this morning. She ate without turning it
down, and no horking. Your source guide is a great help. I have also
talked to the grocery store (being in a small town, its a small
grocery) about the meat that goes over. They just throw it away. I'm
hoping for a small cost per # They will sell it to me. I will let you
know how it goes.

Thanks again,
Beckie

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: woohoo!! woot! woot! woohoo!!!
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))

Yay! I think it can take them a little while to realize that it's
actually food. lol I'm glad that she's digging in now.

-Melissa W

> I was *very* anxious that she would just lick at the chicken back
again, since she had pre-
> ground for breakfast. Boy was I wrong! She practically inhaled
the tripe, then dove right
> in on the chicken back, even using her paws a little bit.
great!
>
> Thanks to everyone for the help, advice and your 'ear'!
>
> David
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: feeding mostly chicken
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sue,

Sounds to me like he could use some additional help. Are you familiar
with classical homeopathy?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ClassicalHomeopathyPets/

If you haven't already, you could also try making sure his food is
appropriately fed (grass-fed, etc., as opposed to grain-fed).

Best wishes,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <fordogs@...> wrote:
>
> I've discussed this problem before but still have some questions. My
> older dog (9 yr old aussie) has a very sensitive stomach.

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Different types of meat
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi Cynthia,

That's interesting about the goat--I haven't noticed that w/my dog but
I haven't fed it in a little while. Are you getting it from a
reputable source? Is it always the same source, or different sources
produce the same result? I'll be curious to hear if any others notice
this type of thing. I don't notice any odors like that, just stool
changes depending on what I feed (different colors, consistencies,
depending on the color of the meat and the fat/bone content).

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiabooijblommers"
<cynthiabooijblommers@...> wrote:
>
> In the case of my 2 dogs (american staffordshire terriers) I've found
> that when they get goat....they reek, I really mean smell, from their
> mouth to their stool.
> Is that normal??

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11973

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Do you all rotate Fish oil Brand??
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Do you all rotate Fish oil Brand??
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
From: steph.sorensen
2b. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
From: costrowski75

3. Re: Different types of meat r/e goat reek.....
From: JOHN PFAFF

4a. leg quarters
From: lhmcmaken
4b. Re: leg quarters
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: leg quarters
From: Olga
4d. Re: leg quarters
From: Sandee Lee
4e. Re: leg quarters
From: Denise and David Spotila
4f. Re: leg quarters
From: Olga

5a. Re: New to the raw feeding+dairrhea and worms
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: New to the raw feeding+dairrhea and worms
From: costrowski75

6.1. Re: Gulping Was: legumes Unhealthy?
From: Olga

7a. Re: Weaning pups from Mom to raw
From: Tina Berry

8. feeding mostly chicken
From: Sue

9a. Backpacking - Dehydrated meat?
From: hydra_lk
9b. Re: Backpacking - Dehydrated meat?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: possible allergies?
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

11a. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: Yasuko herron
11b. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
From: costrowski75

12. individual pork rib bones..quick question
From: lar07911

13a. amount of calcium
From: swilken61
13b. Re: amount of calcium
From: Olga


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Do you all rotate Fish oil Brand??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Update on Walmart soy-free FBO.
> It appears to be gone.

Thanks for the update, Chris. I suppose my search will continue.

Andrea <----Sad panda

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Do you all rotate Fish oil Brand??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:03 pm ((PDT))

>I checked for Rexall online, and it does appear that the hot item is now the 3, 6 combo

Hi,Chris. i don't know if this products fit to your standard,but the fish oil I am using has no soy in it I think because I checked label and it does not say soy is included in ingredients list.

You would like to try?

I got it from Minesota,and company is called B-naturals and I put the link in one of my posts to Andrea within this thread.

This one does not have Omega 6 or 9;unwanted stuff in dog's diet.

yassy


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

If your dogs can carefully dismantle a wing, they can carefully
> dismantle a wing/breast quarter or a leg/thigh quarter...and they
> have every right to do so.
>
> In fact, if your dogs can carefully dismantle a whole chicken they
> should have a crack at that as well. Why don't you want them to eat
> that much? Can you not "sort it all out" in subsequent meals? This
> would be a likely and sensible way to allow for big eating as well
as
> not-so-big eating. Maybe not all the time, but certainly some of
the
> time your dogs should have Big Food opportunities.
>
*****************

I suppose on one day, they could eat the whole chicken, and on other
days, just part of it. I just don't want them to go over their weekly
allotment of food in half a week! I know they can eat a whole chicken
at once, but that will get costly if I do that every day. If I feed
them four pounds one day (the whole chicken), do I then wait a couple
of days to feed them again? That is a lot of food for one day. I
realize that they are large dogs, but I guess I am so used to just
having a bowl of kibble out for them all the time and letting them
grab it whenever they're hungry, that actual "feeding times" is a
foreign concept to me.

I currently have what is left of 5 chickens for the week. The 5
chickens equals 20 lbs of food for two dogs of approximately 55 and 65
lbs. Is this enough, or do you think I need more? Do I just stagger
the amounts that I give them every day until it is gone? Is it better
to feed one meal a day or more than one? Maybe give them a whole
chicken tomorrow evening, then on Saturday morning, split one in half
and give each a half chicken?

I thought I knew what I was doing, but apparently I don't have it all
down just yet. The good news is that my lab, Lucy, used to have a
little junk in her trunk, and it is day three of the diet and she has
almost completely lost it! And her energy level is up a little more
too. The pit bull is the same as always - skinny and silly.

-Steph
Scarlet (I can eat a thigh in three minutes!)
Lucy (I can eat one in two!)

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

"coriowen" <COwen98@...> wrote:
> If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I ought to, once
> in a while, give my Dachshunds a shot at a whole chicken and pick it
> up when I think they have had enough?
*****
I recommend it completely, utterly and with complete confidence that
your dogs will appreciate the gesture.


I have been having a problem
> with my younger Dachshund because she is a gulper, big time!
*****
It has been written here often and not just by me that the best way to
feed a gulper is to feed bigger, not smaller. Big Food (which is of
course relative to the dog) or less big but more complicated food will
slow a dog's progress. In fact, a good complicated and perplexing body
part will stop a gulper in its tracks. Sometimes eating can be a
mindless activity, but at least occasionally a dog should have to solve
its meal before it can eat it.

Good for the belly, good for the brain.


because I feed them twice a day those amounts make the pieces
> smaller and they are not getting the chance to really work at it.
*****
Yes, you've certainly hit that nail on its head! As soon as you can get
your mind around the concept, you should move to one meal a day. If
the Dachshunds need two meals a day, make one bigger than the other.
Then at least one of the meals may be a challenge.


I > fed my Mastiff and my Doberman frozen chicken quarters and it
slowed
> them down immensely, especially my Mastiff, she can almost swallow an
> entire whole chicken!
*****
I hardly ever feed frozen food and when I do it's unintentional. I
feed big food to complicate the feeding process and I feed once a day
or less. If I have to skip a subsequent day (or two) after a
particularly engrossing meal, I do.

I believe you should be feeding your big dogs bigger food than leg
quarters and if your Mastiff sucks down a whole chicken, buy a larger
whole chicken and butterfly it. Or rely on turkeys instead of
chicken. There's nothing magic about chicken.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Feeding wing and thigh separately to large dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

"steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
If I feed
> them four pounds one day (the whole chicken), do I then wait a
couple
> of days to feed them again?
*****
Well, you could, it's not inappropriate. I do this quite often with
healthy adult dogs.

You could also feed half a four pound chicken. Or you could buy
smaller chickens. They're sold by the pound and they're labeled, so
just look for smaller birds.

If you have a wholesale source, you might be able to get rotisserie
chickens that typically weigh less than three pounds. They're also
known as WOGs or "without guts". Larger than game hens and cheaper.


I guess I am so used to just
> having a bowl of kibble out for them all the time and letting them
> grab it whenever they're hungry, that actual "feeding times" is a
> foreign concept to me.
*****
They ought not be on "actual" feeding times! That's a sure way to
get them to begging and carrying on and vomiting yellow bile because
you've missed a self-appointed--arbitrary--deadline. Feed them when
you get around to it; don't arrange your life around their
feeding "schedule". Try very hard to keep the clock out of your
feeding decisions.

But your dogs should not be free fed either; their physiology is well-
suited to feast/fast. Browsers and grazers free feed. Prey free
feeds. Predators do not.


> > I currently have what is left of 5 chickens for the week. The 5
> chickens equals 20 lbs of food for two dogs of approximately 55 and
65
> lbs. Is this enough, or do you think I need more?
*****
Unless you are feeding them significantly more than 2% of body weight
a day, I'd say you've got 20 week-pounds of bird to sustain
approximately 18 week-pounds of dog. However you want to distribute
it. IMO you have enough.


Do I just stagger
> the amounts that I give them every day until it is gone?
*****
If you choose. The rawfed diet is nothing if not flexible.


Is it better
> to feed one meal a day or more than one? Maybe give them a whole
> chicken tomorrow evening, then on Saturday morning, split one in
half
> and give each a half chicken?
*****
Yes, you can do this as well. So far you have not come up with an
idea that doesn't work!

There is one issue though that you should consider at this early
stage of raw feeding. And that's loose stools. Feeding small is
most likely to avert loose stools, feeding "big" may produce looser
stools than you are accustomed to. I really do recommend you flex
your feeding options, but you may have to introduce the concept
somewhat gently to your dogs. For newbie dogs, perhaps the single
most common cause of loose stools is feeding too much food.

Another week or so of small parts may be in order while you learn
more about your dogs' digestive abilities. Gradually introduce them
to larger chicken hunks--a half bird is less likely to cause
digestive upheaval than a whole bird but it still allows for creative
meals.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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3. Re: Different types of meat r/e goat reek.....
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

Cynthia,
In my past life or about 30 years ago, I had a grade "A" goat dairy. Any mature buck will have an off odor and taste - castrated juveniles will not. Does do not smell, either.

Is the smell a little bit of skunk and a little bit musty / moldy? If so, you probably fed a mature buck goat. Also the closer to fall, the stronger the smell.

Later,
John.
JOHN PFAFF
----- Original Message -----
From: cynthiabooijblommers
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:02 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Different types of meat


Hello,
I'm new to this list and have been feeding raw since januari of this
year. Since starting I've been experimenting with different type's of
meat.
In the case of my 2 dogs (american staffordshire terriers) I've found
that when they get goat....they reek, I really mean smell, from their
mouth to their stool.
Is that normal?? And does that occur more often? Fish hasen't been a
problem in that area, aside from a fishhy smell, just the meat.
I find they respond really well to chicken, lamb, cow, duck and
turkey, so I was just curious to how other dogs respond to different
meats.

Secondly, I've got 2 cats, whom I want to switch over also.... What's
best to start with? I have some baby chickens (not sure of English
word, lol) frozen, which they do seem to like, but they just refuse
to eat the chicken I left out for them.
HELP.... I really want them off kibble, but they aren't coöperating :(
Thanks in advance for the tips

Cynthia
Thor, Misty, Hermione and Asjura
The Netherlands

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. leg quarters
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:40 am ((PDT))

seem to be the easiest thing for me to feed my two danes. into the
third week now and my bitch is getting fat! so using the leg quarters
I can feed him 3 and her one, with chicken liver. so is that too much
bone? I am hoping to connect with some hunters and get game. wish me
luck!
take care
Lynda and maude and franklin

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: leg quarters
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:04 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> into the
> third week now and my bitch is getting fat! so using the
> leg quarters
> I can feed him 3 and her one, with chicken liver. so is that
> too much
> bone? I am hoping to connect with some hunters and get game.

No, thats not too much bone. I have 2 Danes. One gets one quarter
and the other gets 2. Thats one meal out of a 2 meal day.

At 3weeks, you should be adding some different protein sources. Put
in a meal or two a week of turkey and see how that works. A week or
so later you might want to add some pork. It's time to start adding
variety.

Connecting with humters is great but don't wait around "hoping" to
connect sometime in the future. Start adding variety now.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
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4c. Re: leg quarters
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
> so using the leg quarters
> I can feed him 3 and her one, with chicken liver. so is that too much
> bone?

Keep an eye on their stools - that would definitely constipate one of
my dogs, and maybe both.

And just because chicken quarters are the easiest, doesn't mean
they're the best. While a fine starter food, I'd be trying to get
some more variety in there, and aim for some more meaty pieces as well.

Olga

Messages in this topic (11)
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4d. Re: leg quarters
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

If that's all you are feeding, yes that's too much bone. Time to start
adding in some meaty meals and some variety.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@yahoo.com>


seem to be the easiest thing for me to feed my two danes. into the
third week now and my bitch is getting fat! so using the leg quarters
I can feed him 3 and her one, with chicken liver. so is that too much
bone?

Messages in this topic (11)
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4e. Re: leg quarters
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't leg quarters approx. 27% bone? When I have to feed leg quarters and when I was starting out, I added breast meat to the meal to avoid to much bone in one meal. I now feed leg quarters with beef heart and liver.

David and Denise Spotila


Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

-----


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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4f. Re: leg quarters
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Denise and David Spotila
<brookside_casa@...> wrote:
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't leg quarters approx. 27%
> bone?

Yes, I think they're around that. But I still consider them a good
"starting food" for new-to-raw dogs since that bit of extra bone helps
to avoid loose stools.

Now, I give chicken quarters so rarely that I don't really worry about
the bone percentage, the other meals can even it out.

Olga

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: New to the raw feeding+dairrhea and worms
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PDT))

"ferrarious" <ferrarious@...> wrote:
> > take the skin off to reduce fat intake
>
> I take the skin off the chicken anyway becouse the toxin that they
> are fed while growing are cincentrated in it. Am I wrong?
*****
Skin should be fed. A beginning dog may have to skip it for a while if
it causes digestive upset but eventually skin should be fed. It's part
of the prey animal, it should be fed.

I believe subQ fat is where the "toxins" are deposited; if you do not
rely heavily on chicken or any other one protein source you are not
likely to overfeed chicken or other concentrated toxins. On the list
of things that worry me about chicken, toxic accumulations are below
Omega 6/3 levels, soy meal, rising prices, overuse and enhancements,
but are possibly above sharp toenails.

Perhaps--when the time comes--removing the easily pluckable fat will be
sufficient?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: New to the raw feeding+dairrhea and worms
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

"cynthiabooijblommers" <cynthiabooijblommers@...> wrote:
>> I'm new to this mailing list, but i thought too much bone in the
diet
> did the opposite??
> When I feed more bone I find that my dogs really have to push :P out
> their droppings.
> Please correct me if I am wrong.
*****
You're not wrong but the issue is less black and white than you
suggest. I've generally found "too much" bone to cause constipation as
well, but I would be hard pressed to say unequivocally it can't
happen. Obviously, if it happens to one person's dogs it can happen to
other dogs as well.

One of the joys of a do-it-yourself raw diet is being able to adjust
indefinitely to meet the changing needs of the dog. This adjusting is
also a responsibility because someone's gotta get the menu right, and
if it isn't you, who? The appropriate amount of edible bone is never
high, but "too much" and the result of "too much" varies. Know your dog!

I do find, when I feed lamb breasts that are fattier and bonier than
usual, that my dogs' stools resemble liquid chalk or whitewash.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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6.1. Re: Gulping Was: legumes Unhealthy?
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Momvella@... wrote:
> Had to push a
> chicken wing down his throat once . Scared the life out of me. From
> now on I grind.

That doesn't mean that he should be allowed to eat whole food, it just
means that chicken wings are too small and just the right size for
"stupid eating" for him. The only way I'd be feeding him a chicken
wing is if it's still attached to the chicken, or at least the chicken
breast section.

Olga

Messages in this topic (27)
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7a. Re: Weaning pups from Mom to raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

"I started them on chicken -- bone-in breasts -- and simply offered them
with the meat ribboned to let them get started. This at 5 wks. Within a
week, they were stripping all the meat off the gones, and by 7 wks.,, were
eating bone as well. Not sure whether one is "superior" to the other method,
but this worked great for me. I don't own a grinder, and don't intend to buy
one, especially since the Corgi puppies had no problems with "whole" foods."

Hi Anne,
I only started mine on ground since at about 3 1/2 weeks they were trying to
eat moms food; so (don't tell my mother) I had already ground venison burger
(from mom) and that's what they got with goats milk at about 3.5 weeks and 4
weeks. Then on to chicken breast.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8. feeding mostly chicken
Posted by: "Sue" fordogs@ptd.net agiledogs2000
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

I've discussed this problem before but still have some questions. My
older dog (9 yr old aussie) has a very sensitive stomach. I've been
feeding raw for about 3 1/2 months now and I continue to have some
problems no matter how small the additional protein that I give with
the chicken meal is. I feed him chicken quarters and quartered
chickens with small amounts of liver or kidney and additional
proteins such as pork or tripe or turkey in small pieces. Beef
really causes problems. He also has, according to my vet, an
enlarged prostate which causes him to do a lot of posturing and
straining at times which does not produce stool. He did this while
eating kibble also.
So when he does finally go, his stool is occasionally large and round
which to me indicates his colon is not working properly. Then there
are times when we have to do a lot of butt washing. I realize hard
and soft stools are both normal and are due to what he's eaten the
past meal or so but my question is, he seems to do best on mostly
chicken and I'm concerned that without adding a lot of varied
proteins that I may be doing him more harm than good. There are also
days that pass without any stool at all. He also has a lot of
discharge from his eyes which he didn't really have initially, could
this still be detox? Sorry for the long post, I only intended to ask
one little question and as I typed I kept thinking of more. On a
brighter note the 1 year old is doing great no matter what I feed him.
Thanks for any help or suggestions.
Sue, Gnat & Slick

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9a. Backpacking - Dehydrated meat?
Posted by: "hydra_lk" lisakrzyzewski@hotmail.com hydra_lk
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

Hello!
We're taking our dog on his first backpacking trip, and are planning on
feeding him dehydrated meats from the holistic pet food store. It's
only a 3 day trip, but difficult as backpacking goes, as it's a climb
up a mountain followed by a ridge top traverse - every pound counts!
Our dog's been on raw since he was a pup (he's over a year old now),
and this will be the first time he has had this type of food. Since
I've never used it, I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions, or
experience to share?

Thanks!
Lisa

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Backpacking - Dehydrated meat?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

"hydra_lk" <lisakrzyzewski@...> wrote:
> We're taking our dog on his first backpacking trip, and are planning
on
> feeding him dehydrated meats from the holistic pet food store. It's
> only a 3 day trip, but difficult as backpacking goes, as it's a climb
> up a mountain followed by a ridge top traverse - every pound counts!
*****
A number of backpackers on this list feed big before they leave home,
skip the next day, feed one meal on the trail, then feed again when
they return home. If your dog is at all accustomed to big food, this
may work fine. However, if dehydrated food is your preference, do it.

BUT! Do NOT NOT NOT wait until the big day before introducing it (or
any new food you decide to go with). Decide ASAP what you want to use
and get her used to it ASAP. You do not want to deal with digestive
upheaval on a mountain climb!

ANYTHING that will be new and different--including leash, harness,
bedding, doggybackpack, bedding, water--should be introduced before you
go so that you can tweak and rearrange while you have time. When I was
a kid I always waited til the last minute to do my science projects.
This doesn't mean you should.

Have fun!
Chris O

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10a. Re: possible allergies?
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:30 am ((PDT))

Lindsey,
I think that your assumption is probably right. You already have
gotten some good suggestions on avoiding the outside air and making
sure that your inside air is as clean as possible. Is he really
suffering alot? If not, I would wait it out.......they eventually will
take care of the fire (hopefully!)
Penny & The Menagerie


Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))


Hi,Chris. Maybe it is hard to let you know what exactly i got,so,I put link here

http://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?products_id=165


This is what I got.

> The cow feet I give to my dogs are whole (although without skin...lucky you!) and much of >the work that goes into tackling a cow foot is getting the skin off.

I think this picture is the hoove part with some fur around(half of what I got).Other half was looking like mostly bone,no fur around.

Palette has never been fed anything with fur,so,I am not sure how she would act. Act like being afraid?? Not sure:-P

Turned out my husband wants to capture the moment with Digital Camera.so,I needed to change my plan,and postpon till Friday/Saturday/ or possibly Sunday when he gets dayoff from work. so,I still have to wait to figure out but interested to see howe palette would act.

The hooves came with cow poo attached on back ofthe hoove. it makes more natural,lol.

I may or maynot wash the poo off from hoove..

Before joining this list,I used to visit Corgi Forum and,I remember that one of the Corgi broke teeth with hoove that is usually pricedaround 99cents each at pet store's.

But then,when I was reading up hoove that greentripe.com sells,it was explained that hoove is raw so, not as hard as the one you findat petsmart for example.

So,I got cow hooves from Hare Today in PA anyway.

>I think you should give the foot try and be there to call it quits if you aren't comfortable with >her performance.

Yes,I think so too. I was curious if any of the members here already tried theirs and if so,how it was.The web did not have review written.

Today,palette turned to 2 years old,and we had fun at backyard again from early morning.

Today,she found a squirrel and chased it,and the squirrel went high up in the tree and palette was growling and barking.

After a few seconds later,squirrel dropped something (possibly acorn or nuts or something??) onto her head twice! and palette was looking up the tree and barking to the squirrel. She was mocked by squirrel but,she had fun with me with ball.

When I looked at her from far side,her fur looked shinier and looked more vivid in color.
She stays calm most of the time,taking naps and such but when we play together both inside the house and outside the house,she look more energetic.

I thought that changing her diet was best choice I ever made.

yassy


---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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11b. Re: gnaw-worthy bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>

> I think this picture is the hoove part with some fur around(half
of what I got).Other half was looking like mostly bone,no fur around.
*****
Oops. Oops again. Sorry, Yassy.
You wrote "hooves" I thought "feet" and that was the end of any
constructive comments on my part.

I don't feed my dogs hooves because hooves are not big enough, or
perhaps because I somehow raise enthusiastic gnawers. Either way, I
don't buy them. If Palette takes her time with bones or likes to
nibble and poke about, my guess is she'll be fine with a raw hoof.
Certainly there are lots of folks who are quite happy with them. As
I wrote in the post you initially referred to, cow feet generally are
the only parts I will feed as "rec" bones.

I gave my BC pup a greentripe.com raw hoof when she was teething.
She gnawed aggressively (in a puppy sort of way) on the edges and in
the middle of the night horked up all her hard work.

You should let Palette have a go at her hoof, then report back with
the results.
Chris O

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12. individual pork rib bones..quick question
Posted by: "lar07911" lar07911@yahoo.com lar07911
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
I plan to introduce pork this weekend to my girl. I bought individual
pork rib bones with a good amount of meat attached. Since she is only
17 pounds is it ok to just give them to her individually and not
attached like some of the reading I have seen?

Also, are pork neck bones ok to give her? These too are also cut and
in smaller pieces.

I also found pork brisket with ribs inside. That huge slab of meat is
definitely at least 4 meals! Out of the pork I purchased above...which
should I introduce first?

Thanks!

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13a. amount of calcium
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has experinced this. One of my dogs seems very
sensitive to calcium levels in her food. She gets very dry stools if
she has too much. My other girl seems to do fine no matter the amount
of calcium, sometimes she gets as much or more than the other one.

Any ideas, or are they just different? The smaller, seemingly more
tolerant of calcium dog has pancreatitis, the bigger, seemingly less
tolerant had been getting frequent UTIs (three in a year and a half,
don't know yet how the diet will affect this, its only been about three
months).

Thanks for any comment.

stephany

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13b. Re: amount of calcium
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

I would go for just different. Of my two dogs, one needs a fair
amount of bone to keep his stools firm, while the other would get
really constipated on that same percentage of bone. The first guy has
an irritable tummy, not sure if that makes a difference.

I have found that I'm able to get him "used to" eating less bone if I
reduce it slowly. But I think a lot of this is an individual thing,
kind of like each dog has their own amount of food that they need to
keep their figure (for one of mine this is about 2.5%, for the other
it's a hair under 2%).

Hope that helps,
Olga

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