Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 31, 2007

Monday, December 31, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12442

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: Ania Tysarczyk
1b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1c. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: kevinedc_la

2a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Betty
2b. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: ilovemy2bichons
2c. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Sandee Lee
2d. Where I bought raw beef bones
From: Betty
2e. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Betty

3a. Re: Gullet
From: Ania Tysarczyk
3b. Re: Gullet
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Gullet
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3d. Chris, what kind of dogs do you have?
From: Betty

4a. 5 week old pups
From: nikkisevy@aol.com
4b. Re: 5 week old pups
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

5a. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: steph.sorensen
5b. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: Ania Tysarczyk
5c. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: diannem200400

6a. Re: What is a recreational bone?
From: Giselle

7. introducing new protein.
From: recyclerat@aol.com

8a. Amounts for a puppy
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Aggression with bone
From: costrowski75
9b. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Morledzep@aol.com
9c. Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: Betty

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Hi Kevin,

Are you feeding some organ meats? Some organ meats are important, so
is the Salmon oil. The probiotics are not needed and veggies are
optional. You can probably add a little more boneless meat to the diet
if you want. And you don't have to grind :)

On the knuckle bones...depends what your dog does with them. Just be
careful because very hard inedible bones have been known to break
teeth.

Ania

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Kevin,
If you can get your dogs to eat fish, there would be no need for the adding of anything extra.
We feed prey model diet here, meaning we don't add any veggies or other stuff, with the meat, organs, and bones, there really is no need to add other stuff, and fish is meat.:)
Mine wouldn't eat fish at first, fresh fish, then someone suggested canned mackeral, and they love it, so it helps make up the difference.
Knuckle bones are ok for my dogs, but they can devour anything, it depends on your dogs. If they are gulpers, you might rethink that one, if not, you are probably ok. Only you know, try it and watch, supervise and see how it goes.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:35 pm ((PST))

"kevinedc_la" <cahill_kevin@...> wrote:
> I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing well,
I
> am concerned about balance.
*****
Don't be. At least, confine your balance concerns to riding a bicycle
or the artistic considerations of photography or painting or
architecture. When feeding dogs, balance is an unnecessary burden.
When feeding dogs, balance is something dogfood manufacturers worry
about in laboratory situations.

I purchased a grinder that can grind
> chicken bones.
*****
Return it if you can get your money back. If you cannot get your money
back, learn to make sausages, and perhaps grind your own fresh
hamburger. You will never need it to feed your dog. Your dog has
built-in grinders called teeth. These spiffy tools can without
question chomp and crush anything a grinder can. And while grinding
does nothing to promote the health of the grinder, chomping and
crushing edible bone promotes dental health, mental health--and good
clean fun--for the dog.

I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
> legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
> Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics.
*****
Why are you doing this? Is your dog very ill or very old? Assuming
neither, please stop this silliness. Stop grinding what you dog can
easily process on its own, stop feeding small parts and start feeding
whole meats and whole edible bones.

Feed chicken intact with its bones; feed a variety of meats whole and
without veggies or additional prefab food; use probiotics only if your
dog has digestive issues that cannot be addressed by diet alone. Let
your dog eat as your dog is meant to eat. All the necessary equipment
is there. Use it.

I was going to add some
> Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
> chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
> occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?
*****
You are feeding raw instead of not raw which is good and a good
beginning but that's about the extent of it. Don't worry about
supplementing with Omega 3. You got some housecleaning to do first.
No more prefab food, no more ground anything, no more veggies.

Think whole meats, whole organs, whole edible bones. Mostly meat, some
organs, some bones. That's it. Uncomplicate your life. Uncomplicate
your dog's menu. When you're comfortably feeding meaty bones and whole
meats and hunks of heart and liver, then you can think about
supplements. You might want to check out http://rawfeddogs.net for
some great recipe ideas.

Veal knuckle bones are probably the least invasive recreation bones but
even with that tentative recommendation they are not worth chancing.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "kevinedc_la" cahill_kevin@hotmail.com kevinedc_la
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the input...now I am a little confused. I have read that
bone is pretty critical. And since my 11 yr old Lab won't chew (
only gulps them down) chicken bones, I decided to grind them. If no
chicken grinding and no knuckle and weight bearing bones, what do you
suggest? ribs, other meaty beef bones?
Thanks,
Kevin

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Kevin, you do not need a grinder. "Balance" in a carnivore's diet
means
> tons of meat, a little edible bone and organs. No veggies, no
probiotics,
> no Bravo's...and definitely no knuckle bones. Think meat...look at
their
> normal prey...80% meat in nice large chunks, 10% edible bone and
10% organs.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "kevinedc_la" <cahill_kevin@...>
>
>
> I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing
well, I
> am concerned about balance. I purchased a grinder that can grind
> chicken bones. I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
> legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
> Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics. I was going to add some
> Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
> chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
> occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Well, if your dog's teeth now look like my dog's before pics, and
they were worse when you started that is amazing! Good for you! You
can still take those before pics and post!
Prism

> I wish I had thought to do this with my 11yo sheltie. His teeth
were horrendous, and his breath was like a toxic waste dump. The vet
had been after me to take him in for a cleaning, but I was very
hesitant to have him put under.
Looking forward to seeing your 'after' pics in a couple weeks!
Lisa

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "ilovemy2bichons" ilovemy2bichons@yahoo.com ilovemy2bichons
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:41 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++

Where do you buy the beef rib bones? Are those better for getting the
teeth clean? I have a 15 yo bichon who I am hesitant to get her teeth
cleaned although they are really bad.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:49 pm ((PST))

No, rib bones are not better for tooth cleaning...in fact they could harm
teeth if not fed in slabs and removed once the meat and gristle is taken off
the bones. Bare beef bones generally wear and break teeth. Stick with raw
meaty edible bones, tough skin and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ilovemy2bichons" <ilovemy2bichons@yahoo.com>

Where do you buy the beef rib bones? Are those better for getting the
teeth clean? I have a 15 yo bichon who I am hesitant to get her teeth
cleaned although they are really bad.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Where I bought raw beef bones
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

I bought mine at a local supermarket, they happened to be on sale and
I got a rack for like $6.00. Someone had said they are shaped so much
better for the cleaning of the teeth and I'm apt to agree so far as my
dog's teeth are looking better. He also loves them! I took some pics
again tonight, and it's only day 4 but already they are showing
improvement. I give my dog one rib bone a day for now. I'll cut back
when I feel I should..or he has no interest in a daily bone like that.
Today, he left the bone sitting and didn't want it so I put it back in
the fridge and gave it to him late afternoon. He's been working it
ever since.
Prism
_______________
> Where do you buy the beef rib bones? Are those better for getting the
> teeth clean? I have a 15 yo bichon who I am hesitant to get her teeth
> cleaned although they are really bad.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Oh, gosh really?! Oh my..so much contradictory info. to wade thru.
What is one to think and then do? What is a meaty edible bone then?
I've given him meaty chicken bones like thighs and wings..they didn't
clean my dogs teeth that great. I can understand to remove a cleaned
bone, but I do that with the rib bones and there is nothing to remove
after he's eaten a meaty chicken bone. Chicken bones don't really have
all that much gristle on them like the rib bones do. Why would I give
my 9 lb. dog a rack of raw rib bones? What's the difference between
cleaning one side of a slab and then the other side of the slab
compared to cleaning one side of one bone and then the other side of
that bone?
Prism

> No, rib bones are not better for tooth cleaning...in fact they could
harm teeth if not fed in slabs and removed once the meat and gristle
is taken off the bones. Bare beef bones generally wear and break
teeth. Stick with raw meaty edible bones, tough skin and fat.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

I have. I have a few in the freezer right now. They are soft. No bone,
just cartilidge with a little meat covering it. My dogs like them.
They do get some good chewing on them before they are eaten
completely. They are good for the joints too!

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone fed Gullet to dog?

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:42 pm ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone fed Gullet to dog?
*****
I have but I do not now. The ones from greentripe.com are just too
small for my dogs. Even butterflied (no easy task) they are
precariously close to being "oh I can swallow this" size. Not worth
it, for me. OTOH, whole tracheas--a foot long or so--are good chews.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/31/2007 2:27:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

I read that is cartilidge with a little meat on it so,I got it.

Yassy,

it's all cartilage, some meat and a touch of fat and connective tissue.
there is NO bone. the ones we get from greentripe.com usually are about the size
of a large man's fist up to about the size of a softball, just about a meal for
any one of my dogs. my dogs love em, except pugsly, who would get the most
benefit from eating them.. lol.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Chris, what kind of dogs do you have?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Just wondering..it's getting difficult to know who has what with the
newness..sorry if you already stated that.
Prism

OTOH, whole tracheas--a foot long or so--are good chews.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. 5 week old pups
Posted by: "nikkisevy@aol.com" nikkisevy@aol.com mavreenhering
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Hello All,

I have a litter of 5 week old pups and wanted to know if I could
throw in some meaty bones for them to chew on. I thought they might be able
to get some of the meat off but not chew the bone. Is this something I can do
or is it not good for them to have the bones yet? this is my first raw fed
litter so I am very new and this and can use all the help you guys have.

Have a Happy New Year!!!

Nicole

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: 5 week old pups
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:48 pm ((PST))

yes, throw them in, and watch the fun start:)
And congrats on the litter, and happy new year!
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

My girls have been eating that very thing for the last few days. I
do recommend something with a little less bone for a day or so
afterwards to balance it out, since the bone content is still pretty
high in neck bones, but those are just fine and completely safe to
serve as a meal.

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lmartin828@...> wrote:
>
> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone
for them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.
>
>
>
> Also are they safe?
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.weeworld.com/home/lmartin828/>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

I feed them as a meal and feed boneless meat the next day. You can
also feed them with a side of boneless meat.

Ania

Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:12 pm ((PST))

"Lisa" <lmartin828@...> wrote:>
> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone
for them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.
*****
They're probably not quite meaty. Quite meaty is when you can't see
the bone for the meat. Pork neck bones are heavily trimmed bones.
Pork neck roasts would be meaty. Pork shoulder roasts would be meaty.

Pork neck bones tend to be sold in two versions. There's the small
hunks cut to the size of a deck of playing cards, plus/minus, which are
generally too small for most dogs. And there's the larger stretch of
neck, usually curved into a section of shoulder, weighing a pound or
so. These are no more meaty but they're can be a good workout and if
fed with meat (or if a meaty meal is forthcoming) it all pretty much
works out.

I can't imagine them being handed out for chewing since they are
definitely edible and that much bone without meat is likely to produce
difficult stools.

You might visit the Rawfeddogs website. Click on recipes, then look
for the pork neck bone pictures.

http://rawfeddogs.net
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Hi Lisa:

I feed whole pork necks when I want to add some bone to all meat
meals. If I'm feeding a lot of beef heart, several days in a row,
I'll add a pork neck for each dog maybe two or three times a week.
They are not as meaty as they appear, in my opinion. As for safety,
my dogs do okay on them, but I would advise you to watch your dogs to
make sure they don't try to snarf down a whole neck all at once.
Mine will often leave a small piece of the bone after they've gotten
all the meat and most of the bone, and I throw the leftover bone away
because it's always too small to be safe.

Dianne M.

> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday...don't know if these would be considered a meal,

> Also are they safe?

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: What is a recreational bone?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:53 pm ((PST))

Hi, Prism!
A w/rec/k bone, or recreational bone, AKA as marrow or soup
or knuckle or dog bone - is a real bone, mostly they are cow bones, either
cooked or uncooked.

They are too hard, too dense and imo, don't have enough meat on them to have
any redeeming value.

They are also well known for wearing teeth down and causing tooth breakage.

Better to feed large, engaging animal parts with lots of meat and some
edible bone - these provide nourishment and dental, mental, emotional and
physical workouts.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Is it a real bone or manufactured bone?
> Prism
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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7. introducing new protein.
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

Hey all,

quick question regarding introducing a new protein -

we've been feeding chicken to my Rot...he's had other proteins in the
passed..but it seems i've got him stabilized on chicken after a hardcore issue
2 weeks ago...i've never given him pork before..but i found a sale today on a
huge hunk of pork roast - so i bought one -

wondering the best way to introduce this new protein...or if i even should -
he's doing really well on chicken and the occasional fish (he doesn't like
fish much - but eats it if it's all i offer for a day).

how long can i safely feed only mainly chicken? (i give him the livers that
come inside)

he's a rot..used to be big, but never over 120 lbs...but now is probably
only pushing 85-90.

thanks.

.heather.

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Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:49 pm ((PST))

"Jennifer Smith" <oldbones929@...> wrote:
> I don't think that 3 1/2 tbls is enough for a growing pup, I'd
suggest
> giving her 3/4 cup of ground meat 3 times a day and/or maybe some
chicken
> necks to snack on periodically.
*****
Um, I'm not sure where you've been but I don't think it's to the list
archives. Ground meat is not necessary; even a pup can--and should--
be working on whole meats; and chicken necks are not snacks, they're
basic food, albeit pretty small and meatless. For a small dog, for a
small dog puppy, and for cats they may be useful, at least for a
while, but they're not the only bones available to pups. Bones with
meat, like rib-in chicken breasts and quail are quite nice. Snacks?
I don't think so.

Does the ground meat have bone in it?
> If not you'll need to give some sort of calcium supplement, since
meat
> without bone is not balanced.
*****
Not every meal needs bone, not even for pups; and boneless meals do
not need calcium supplements. Meat without bone is not a threat or a
deficiency, it's just meat without bone. "Balance" as you apply the
term is artifice; balance as it occurs in nature happens over time,
eventually, sooner or later, in the long run, more or less, and in
the larger view.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:55 pm ((PST))

ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN

Please take all training discussions to RawChat or private. This
includes resource guarding. Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:22:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ols@charter.net writes:

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

Amanda,

Resource guarding is a training issue.. not a subject for raw feeding.

But, WRECK bones are just that..they can and do break teeth. IF you dog
needs more stuff to chew then buy pork skin or a pork face mask at an asian store,
they are rough and tough and chewy and they not only provide loads of
entertainment, they clean teeth and don't damage them.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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9c. Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Chris, how do I get a photo album placed on the photo pages of my dog?
And can you please explain (I've been reading, following links, and
doing a lot of research in regard to this raw feeding issue) if I'm
doing right or wrong by giving my dog raw rib bones, one at a time to
help him clear up some of his teeth issues? This shouldn't be so
difficult and so diverse in opinion should it?
Prism

> ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN
> Please take all training discussions to RawChat or private. This
> includes resource guarding. Thank you.
> Chris O
> Moderation Team
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12441

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: mathamgri
1b. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: Heather
1c. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: Giselle
1d. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: T Smith

2a. Amounts for a puppy
From: mathamgri
2b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Laura Atkinson
2c. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Laura Atkinson

3a. Aggression with bone
From: A.
3b. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Chia
3c. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Heather
3e. What is a recreational bone?
From: Betty

4a. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: mathamgri
4b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: steph.sorensen

5.1. Re: Loose, broken, cracked dog teeth
From: Giselle
5.2. Dog graph of teeth
From: Betty

6.1. bones
From: Janet
6.2. Re: bones
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Pork Neck bones
From: Lisa
7b. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Do I have a good balance?
From: kevinedc_la
8b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Lisa Blair

10.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
From: Betty

11a. Re: Seared liver lovers
From: Laura Atkinson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
Hi Frances,

I frequent Cash n Carry. They have large chunks of meat, and I can
usually find something for a dollar a pound or less. Safeway's two
blocks from me, in a pinch, I can usually find something for $1.50 or
less, and always some cheap chicken. WalMart for organ meats, even
though I'm politically opposed to shopping there, although less so
now. Although I have lots of freezer space in my business, I find
myself too disorganized to thaw these big chunks in a timely manner,
I still have frozen grass fed beef that I bought for the dogs a
couple years ago. Which, by the way, was more costly than buying at
the grocery store, although probably better. If you are a meat eater,
you could buy a beef or whole carcass of something, keep the best
cuts for yourself and feed the rest to the kids. That could justify a
higher price. And though others have mentioned it here, it's worth
letting your friends know that you will take old meat off their
hands. I scored some lamb the other day. And I think I have some
venison coming.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> I don't buy whole chickens. I buy chicken backs in bulk .25/lb. I
> buy chicken quarters at Walmart .47/lb. I don't buy whole
turkeys.
> I buy turkey necks or wings in bulk for around .50 to .60/lb(price
> fluctuates). I don't buy ground beef, instead I buy beef heart in
> bulk around .50 - .70/lb(price fluctuates). I do buy pork butt
and
> other pork roasts. I feed venison that I can beg off my friends
for
> free (last years and year before deer). I also take any old meat
I
> can talk friends out of. I use freecycle. I don't under any
> conditions buy any pre-made dog food. I can feed 2 Great Danes
and
> 2 cats for about $60 - $70/mo.

> (And they say men can't shop!) :) :) :)
>
> Bill Carnes

WOW I'm impressed! I used to be able to take advantage of cheap
sales on whole chickens but now my kitty's decided she hates the
taste of the preservatives they use and will only eat fresh
chickens. I figure they're healthier anyway so my dog eats them too
(20 lb beagle). I always get deer scraps during hunting season. This
year's deal was 6-8 whole rib cages for $10. It should last me until
next season. I haven't located a cheap source of beef heart.. I pay
$3 each. Cannot find kidneys yet. I bought a package of chicken
hearts and gizzards for 98c/lb at Walmart though and duck for
$1.39/lb. AND I may be able to buy a whole goat and sheep that will
hopefully turn out to be less than $1/lb (haven't checked into it
yet) Buying large quantities cuts costs alot. I used to buy turkey
necks for 50c/lb but now they upped it to 89c. Ridiculous. I just
buy whole turkey from Walmart for 79c/lb. It works out better
because my 5.5 lb cat can't eat turkey necks anyway.. or most of the
other things available cheap. Ah well. Walmart also sells canned
sardines in water- no salt- for 50c.

Heather

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:20 pm ((PST))

Hi, Frances!
The Lis List is a great compilation of ways to creatively
obtain meat for cheap or free;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
TC
Giselle with Bea in New Jersey

I just bought 60 pounds of meat to feed my 3 large dogs for 14 days. I
> feed them mostly
> chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in some
> ground beef, pork
> butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for some
> variety. Sometimes I
> wish my dogs were all small and I could afford to feed them in
> style...more red meats,
> more diversity.
>
> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

I buy several hundreds of pounds at a time, just brought home a 5th
freezer...
I'm feeding 9 dogs so I am not really sure if I am keeping costs down.
I know the other humans in our home eat meat so they'll eat the chicken,
pork etc too :-) So I can't say the dogs ate it all ;-)
Now I am waiting for the turkeys to go on sale, even though I have 300
pounds of frozen meat on my deck that I cannot fit in my freezers!!
I like feeding the beef hearts, getting them at .49/lb (I think) Someone
else gets them for me but the cost is great & they like the hearts.
I have cut way back on the little dogs food (not that they even put a dent
in it but each pound helps) & the Dane kids are on a steady amount each
day. We use a 10 lb bag of chicken thighs each day.
I think in the end, I am hoping I will see a big enough difference in their
health to justify the cost of the meats.
My whole family loves feeding the raw! It's easy!
With having disabled dogs, I think we will always have those extra vet bills
but perhaps less... I believe the raw has helped keep Whisper's seizures
minimal, my chronic skin problem dog hasn't seen the vet for meds in a few
months for skin or ears (miracle in itself!)......He has an eye appointment
in Jan.... he seems to be acting like he has better vision & that just isn't
possible.....his eyes don't require the 7 drops PLUS extras a day like
required & he has been getting for 2 years because he had no eye moisture...
now he seems to have, for the first time ever, moist eyes....maybe just
chance...but I think that it will correlate with the cost of the food in the
end, If I can skip a $300.00 opthamologist appt & reduce eye meds by a
couple hundred dollars a month by feeding raw.... THAT is saving money! So
for me, I try to see the whole picture vs what i am paying for the food
itself. Is that right?
Trina

On Dec 31, 2007 12:04 PM, francesdrew <francesdrew@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I just bought 60 pounds of meat to feed my 3 largs dogs for 14 days. I
> feed them mostly
> chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in some
> ground beef, pork
> butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for some
> variety. Sometimes I
> wish my dogs were all small and I could afford to feed them in
> style...more red meats,
> more diversity.
>
> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
> _
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I
be giving her more until she seems satiated ?
>
>
>
> Michelle
>
> I raised my Standard Poodle pup on raw from six weeks on. At first,
three meals a day, as much as he could eat in ten or fifteen minutes.
When he seemed less interested in the mid-day meal, I eliminated it. At
about six months we started doing more really big meals, and only
sometimes did he get a second meal. I just let him decide how much he
needed and how frequently. He is the least gluttonous of my three dogs,
which I at least partially attribute to this feeding style. Anyway,
Standard Poodles don't run to fat, so I don't worry about giving them
too much. They are pretty sensible dogs.

Hannah
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

I start puppies with 3% of their anticipated adult weight and adjust as
needed from there. It's divided into multiple meals (as few as I can get
away way) so that each meal isn't big enough to cause loose stools. I keep
my puppies a smidge on the plump side, so I'm not always playing catch up
with growth spurts.

Start them with whatever. Chicken is easy, that's for sure. But it's got a
lot of bone too, so I don't do chicken w/ bone every meal.

The fun thing with puppies is that if they can get their mouth on it, it's
potentially edible, so if you've got a puppy that adjusts quickly to new
foods, you can have fun finding new things for them to eat. When I do that,
the meal on either side of the new item is generally something they've
already had and done well with.

On Dec 31, 2007 6:26 AM, Carlye <reidhaven@catahouligans.com> wrote:

> Just checking to be sure: do you feed a puppy 10% of it's current body
> weight until that exceeds 2-3% of his expected weight? Is it best to
> start them with chicken? Are there any other tricks that I should
> know?
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

Dear heavens...feed her! Assuming her estimated adult weight is going to be
60 lbs (I don't know the poodle standard) that'd be around a pound a day,
split into multiple meals. You're lucky she's not gnawing your limbs off
while you sleep.

On Dec 31, 2007 12:21 PM, Michelle G. Heimendinger <michelle@hdinger.com>
wrote:

> Hi all. Ok, my standard poodle pup is about 7 lbs and 11 weeks. She is
> getting approx. 3 ½ tablespoons of ground meats 3 times a day but still
> looking for food. I will give her some chunks tonight or if I find a turkey
> neck. Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I
> be giving her more until she seems satiated ?
>
> Michelle
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Aggression with bone
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

We have a 1 year old Mastiff who is the sweetest thing ever. She never
shows any aggression to anyone. We feed a raw diet and I can take her
food or pet her while eating and she doesn't care. She also does not
care when she has nylabones or toys.

The problem comes when we give her the big recreational bones from the
butchers. When she has that if you walk near her she growls. I can
even say her name and she will growl. Our other dog got to close to
her and she snapped at him. This is VERY out of character for her.

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

~Amanda

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:27 pm ((PST))

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

#### google 'canine resource guarding' and look for assistance that
encourages 'positive' actions, not ridiculous alpha rolls and the like.

Watch recreational bones due to the risk of tooth damage or cracks. ANY
soup bones or femurs of large ungulates should be avoided, it just isn't
worth the pain, risk, and HUGE expense you may concur.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:45 pm ((PST))

Stop giving recreational bones! :) Seriously, they are responsible for
tooth breaking and wearing...regardless of her behavior, I wouldn't risk it.

Now to deal with the issue of resource guarding, we have discussed this
quite a bit on Rawchat if you'd like to join and look for the past messages.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "A." <ols@charter.net>

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

My dog had severe food aggression that I tamed by getting as close as
I could to him right at the point he would begin growling, and then
I'd throw a treat to him and walk away. You are not rewarding the
growling, you're sending a message to the dog that your presence is a
positive thing. As you get closer you can begin handing her stew size
chunks of meat, to which she'll have to drop the bone to eat. Start
working on a drop command when she shows interest in you approaching.
When you feel it's safe, try to pick up the bone first before giving
her the trade item. Mine will abandon any bone for a piece of meat I
have in my hand. Maybe that's all it will take is her seeing you with
something better. My dog had no trouble with me messing with his
kibble but as explained to me by a behaviorist, raw meats are a much
higher prized food item and some dogs it will trigger a guarding
behavior.

Heather

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. What is a recreational bone?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Is it a real bone or manufactured bone?
Prism

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
>
> An animal who is
> not under siege is one who is unattractive to parasites.
>
>
> ginny and Tomo
>
> This is so true. I noticed years ago that debilitated horses were
especially prone to lice. Healthy horses in the same barn never
succumbed.

Hannah
>
> All stunts performed without a net!
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

I also live in Georgia, but this past summer, I was still feeding
kibble to my girls, and they had fleas, DISPITE being on preventative
at the time too. I have found that the flea and tick stuff does
nothing for them.

So I look forward to next summer to see how they do.

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cris_milam" <cmilam@> wrote:
> >
> > We live in Georgia where every tick and flea and his brother must
> > live.
>
> I live in Georgia also. This year I found one tick on one of two
dogs
> and about 50 on me(I don't eat raw :) ).
>

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5.1. Re: Loose, broken, cracked dog teeth
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

There ya go.....
http://www.wirefoxterrierassociation.co.uk/conformation/Skull.jpg

TC
Giselle

> My dog has no broken or
> cracked teeth, just the slightly loose tooth on left back, and the
> more loose back tooth on right side. I don't know about any missing
> teeth. Is there a graph to look at to number the dog's teeth? Thanks!
>
> Prism
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (52)
________________________________________________________________________

5.2. Dog graph of teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Wow..great easy graph..thanks so much for the link!
Prism

There ya go.....
> http://www.wirefoxterrierassociation.co.uk/conformation/Skull.jpg
TC
Giselle

Messages in this topic (52)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. bones
Posted by: "Janet" janetcalandro@comcast.net pjcala6
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:47 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note; pls sign all emails ++++++++++++

can someone explain what a weight bearing bone is? My dog loves to
chew on bones I get at the butcher with marrow in it? He will chew it
for days until I throw it out. Is this really bad for his teeth?
thanks for your help

Messages in this topic (52)
________________________________________________________________________

6.2. Re: bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:51 pm ((PST))

Weight bearing bones are the long leg bones which hold up a large
animal...cow, moose, elk, etc. Those butcher shop bones are known for
breaking/wearing down teeth.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Janet" <janetcalandro@comcast.net>

Messages in this topic (52)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Lisa" lmartin828@verizon.net simplylisa0906
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up yesterday,
and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone for them
to chew on. They are quite meaty.

Also are they safe?

<http://www.weeworld.com/home/lmartin828/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:14 pm ((PST))

If they are labeled bones they most likely are not a meal. If there is
enough meat you cannot decipher the bone, they are great.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Lisa" <lmartin828@verizon.net>

> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone for
them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "kevinedc_la" cahill_kevin@hotmail.com kevinedc_la
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

Hi,
I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing well, I
am concerned about balance. I purchased a grinder that can grind
chicken bones. I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics. I was going to add some
Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?
Also, is it ok to feed raw veal knuckle bones?
Thanks for your advice.
Kevin

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST))

Kevin, you do not need a grinder. "Balance" in a carnivore's diet means
tons of meat, a little edible bone and organs. No veggies, no probiotics,
no Bravo's...and definitely no knuckle bones. Think meat...look at their
normal prey...80% meat in nice large chunks, 10% edible bone and 10% organs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "kevinedc_la" <cahill_kevin@hotmail.com>

I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing well, I
am concerned about balance. I purchased a grinder that can grind
chicken bones. I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics. I was going to add some
Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Lisa Blair" lkblair@yahoo.com lkblair
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

I wish I had thought to do this with my 11yo sheltie. His teeth were horrendous, and his breath was like a toxic waste dump. The vet had been after me to take him in for a cleaning, but I was very hesitant to have him put under. Well, I made the switch to raw about 3wks ago, and the change is remarkable. His teeth now look about like your pics here, but the improvement from his before is almost unbelievable. Before the switch, all of his little front teeth were loose; now I can't wiggle any of them. :)

Looking forward to seeing your 'after' pics in a couple weeks!

Lisa

----- Original Message ----
From: Betty <prismkitten@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 1:34:40 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Photos link of my dog's teeth

http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 22272690@ N02/

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

My dog has been a raw feeder for over 5 years now. It's the raw rib
bones that a new addition to help clean his teeth. What are GSD dogs?
German Shepard Dogs?

Prism

If I remember right, you are just beginning raw so I would hold off
> a couple of weeks on the fish. They are not notorious for causing
> firm solid stools. I would wait until he has had a few weeks of
> good solid stools before I introduced fish. I am very cautious
> about soft stools, probably more so than some of the others here.
> Bill Carnes

Messages in this topic (52)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Seared liver lovers
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

You're way nicer than I am. When Katie goes through an "I don't LIKE liver"
stage, I give it to her first. When the liver is eaten, she gets dinner. If
it doesn't get eaten, she doesn't. She goes through this phase less and
less often as time goes by...I think I'm winning! :-)

On Dec 31, 2007 9:14 AM, Susan Fortune <desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net>
wrote:

> Emu liver was refused by all four of my dogs.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12440

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. a BIG THANKS from a lurker
From: Jihad Abdallah

2a. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: cris_milam
2b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: MORGAN LEWIS
2c. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: ginny wilken

3a. intro/question
From: sweettimemom
3b. Re: intro/question
From: costrowski75

4.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
From: Betty
4.2. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
From: carnesbill

5.1. Loose, broken, cracked dog teeth
From: Betty

6. Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Betty

7a. Re: Introducing organs
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: expertise
From: costrowski75

9a. Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: francesdrew
9b. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: Yasuko herron
9c. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: Michelle
9d. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: carnesbill

10a. Amounts for a puppy
From: Michelle G. Heimendinger
10b. Amounts for a puppy
From: ekendahl
10c. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Jennifer Smith
10d. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: April
11b. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: Yasuko herron

12. Gullet
From: Yasuko herron

13a. Another newbie with questions!
From: Monica Hughes

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. a BIG THANKS from a lurker
Posted by: "Jihad Abdallah" forever_jihad@yahoo.com forever_jihad
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:35 am ((PST))

I've been lurking on this board for a few weeks now and just wanted to
say "Thanks!" for all the wonderful info here. For years I fed my dogs
what I thought was the 'best' on the market, including cooking for
them on weekends. I always took great pride in having happy, healthy
and beautful K9's.
After much research and following the info from this group I made the
jump to RAW only a couple weeks ago. The change in my GSD was
immediate and amazing. The change in my other 3 isn't as dramatic but
is slowly showing in their teeth and coats. Not to mention the big cut
down in doo-doo patrol. lol
I couldn't be happier with my decision to go RAW.
Thanks for all the great info here. I'll continue to lurk and read and
learn. :o)

Jihad Neeahmah Abdallah
and crew.

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "cris_milam" cmilam@comcast.net cris_milam
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

The whole tick thing alone would be reason enough for me to feed Duncan
raw. We live in Georgia where every tick and flea and his brother must
live. No matter what we used, our dogs had fleas to one degree or
another. It was a neverending battle.

This year Duncan had about 6 fleas all summer long. He had no
treatments for fleas whatsoever (other than being fed raw!). Most of
the fleas he got came from staying overnight with other dogs with
fleas. Apparently, he just wasn't tasty. BTW, it was still a horrible
year for fleas -- every dog owner seemed to start the conversation
with "I've never seen the fleas worse......"

I am very thrilled with this side effect of raw feeding.

Cris and Duncan, the itch free

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

OK, somewhere i missed the origin of this discussion; and my search screen doesn't find it. What is it about feeding RAW that controls ticks or fleas. Have had no problem with fleas but ticks are a pain. Morgan

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:11 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cris_milam" <cmilam@...> wrote:
>
> We live in Georgia where every tick and flea and his brother must
> live.

I live in Georgia also. This year I found one tick on one of two dogs
and about 50 on me(I don't eat raw :) ).

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:36 pm ((PST))

On Dec 31, 2007, at 11:59 AM, MORGAN LEWIS wrote:

> OK, somewhere i missed the origin of this discussion; and my search
> screen doesn't find it. What is it about feeding RAW that controls
> ticks or fleas. Have had no problem with fleas but ticks are a
> pain. Morgan

Nothing complex. In a word, health. Raw allows health, and stops a
vicious and draining battle with inappropriate food. An animal who is
not under siege is one who is unattractive to parasites.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. intro/question
Posted by: "sweettimemom" emailthecains@charter.net sweettimemom
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

I'm doing my research to get started on RAW I have a Golden A Newf a
mastiff and soon to have another mastiff. I'm wondering how many lbs.
you would recommend I have in my freezer to get started? If all goes
well with the dogs I hope to switch our cat over too.Just looking for
a spot to begin!
Sweettimemom

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: intro/question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:57 am ((PST))

"sweettimemom" <emailthecains@...> wrote:>
> I'm doing my research to get started on RAW I have a Golden A Newf a
> mastiff and soon to have another mastiff. I'm wondering how many lbs.
> you would recommend I have in my freezer to get started?
*****
You get started by starting. Easiest to buy a buncha whole chickens to
cut up as needed. Waiting til your freezer is full enough is a
delaying tactic. The best time to feed raw is right away.

For further answers to questions you haven't even formulated yet,
please join Yahoogroups so you can access the Rawfeeding message
archives. Joining instructions are at the bottom of every Rawfeeding
email you receive. Also see:

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net
http://rawfedcats.org
http://www.rawlearning.com
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

Hahaha..well, your cats are probably bigger than my Maltese! He could
fit under your Great Danes. As he's small, not a toy though, around 9
lbs. what kind of fish do you think I should start with, what parts,
and how much? I think I figured he should get around 3.7 oz of food
per day, plus the raw rib bones daily for now. I'm not going to cut up
his raw meat today, just give me a chunk of it and see what he does
with it.

Prism

I have 2 Great Danes and 2 cats.
> Bill Carnes

Messages in this topic (49)
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4.2. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
>
> Hahaha..well, your cats are probably bigger than my Maltese!

Yeah, my cats are arounnd 12lbs and my dogs around 140lbs each.

> what kind of fish do you think I should start with, what parts,
> and how much?

I think Salmon is absolutely the best single fish you can feed.
Parts? all of it. How much? bout the same ass the other meats.

If I remember right, you are just beginning raw so I would hold off
a couple of weeks on the fish. They are not notorious for causing
firm solid stools. I would wait until he has had a few weeks of
good solid stools before I introduced fish. I am very cautious
about soft stools, probably more so than some of the others here.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (49)
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5.1. Loose, broken, cracked dog teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

Yes, that makes sense to me. When you pulled out the teeth, did the
roots come out, and did you say if they were back molars or front
teeth. Sorry that I can't recall that bit. My dog has no broken or
cracked teeth, just the slightly loose tooth on left back, and the
more loose back tooth on right side. I don't know about any missing
teeth. Is there a graph to look at to number the dog's teeth? Thanks!

Prism

> I think it was the gum disease that made them so loose in the first
> place. They were very loose and we pulled them out ourselves.
> Now that the gums are healthy, I think that's what makes the
> tooth "tighten up".
> Belinda

Messages in this topic (49)
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6. Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:44 am ((PST))

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22272690@N02/

How does one make a photo album for this forum? I'd like one for Cushy:)

Prism

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:50 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Actually both thimus and pancreas ARE organs but they are also
> glands.
*****
Cool. Fine by me. Makes life easier.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Re: expertise
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:09 pm ((PST))

ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN

I should like to remind everyone that while menu recommendations for
allergies and other maladies are ON topic for this list, remedies,
cures and treaments beyond diet are OFF topic and are inappropriate for
rawfeeding. Please take all non-diet discussion to RawChat, DogHealth
or private. Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "francesdrew" francesdrew@yahoo.com francesdrew
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:11 pm ((PST))

I just bought 60 pounds of meat to feed my 3 largs dogs for 14 days. I feed them mostly
chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in some ground beef, pork
butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for some variety. Sometimes I
wish my dogs were all small and I could afford to feed them in style...more red meats,
more diversity.

What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?

Thanks,
Frances

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

>I feed them mostly chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in some
ground beef, pork butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for some
variety.

Hi,Frances. How long have you been on rawfeeding? If you were on rawfeeding a little while,and if you already introduced new protins here andthere,you may want to feed more red meat than poultry.

chicken and Turkey is good protin source but high in omega6 than red meat.

If you base on poultry for menu,then,you probably better to give fish oil to bump up the level of omega 3 for your dog.

if you feed beef,try feed hunk of beef like a...Roast,not ground.

andas for madallions,you seem to add it to broaden the protin sources but madallions are no better than real meat. so,if you could find source of real meatsuppliers,that is better for your dogs.plus,you can see what your dogs are getting if you give real meat,and you have control over amount etc.

Sometimes,state has co-op and if you can order bulk,then,items price per pound gets cheaper and if you hadfarmers near you,that is another option as well.

If you live in VA,until thursday this week,they have 10lb pork loin with price of 1.99 per pound. it is boneless.I believe that if you slice to 1 inch thickness,that iswhat you get as POrk chop withjout bone,but this ignormous loin lasts quite long timefor my 34lb dog.

when I got it last time,it was30 cents cheaper in price but still,it is a good buy.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "Michelle" brunoheart@yahoo.com brunoheart
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
I am lucky in that my local butcher sells whole Beef Chucks to me for
$2.49 a pound, I can also get shin meat for around $1.50-2.00 per
pound. My local Safeway was just having whole Pork tenderloins on
sale for about $1.69 per lb. I can get whole Beef Briskets at
Walmart for about $1.67 per pound. I also buy Pork ribs by the case
and extra meaty Beef Ribs at Walmart for about $1.98 per pound. I am
unlucky in that I am feeding two Great Danes one of which vomits up
all forms of poultry and the other of which won't eat poulty if the
poultry barfer is eating beef. I have some friends that hunt and
will give me Deer Carcasses of which he has lots because he butchers
deer for his friends, too. It gets easier to find deals over time.
Check local butchers, grocery stores and look in the phone book or
check with your local Ag Department to find who butchers deer in the
area. They may even offer scraps and carcasses for free (it saves
them from having to dispose of the bits and pieces).I also order
ground tripe and organ meat from online and get canned salmon,
mackeral and tuna from whoever has it cheaper.
Hope this helps, good luck!
Michelle Pape

Messages in this topic (4)
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9d. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:27 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "francesdrew" <francesdrew@...>
wrote:
>
> I just bought 60 pounds of meat to feed my 3 largs dogs for 14
days. I feed them mostly
> chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in
some ground beef, pork
> butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for
some variety. Sometimes I
> wish my dogs were all small and I could afford to feed them in
style...more red meats,
> more diversity.
>
> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
I don't buy whole chickens. I buy chicken backs in bulk .25/lb. I
buy chicken quarters at Walmart .47/lb. I don't buy whole turkeys.
I buy turkey necks or wings in bulk for around .50 to .60/lb(price
fluctuates). I don't buy ground beef, instead I buy beef heart in
bulk around .50 - .70/lb(price fluctuates). I do buy pork butt and
other pork roasts. I feed venison that I can beg off my friends for
free (last years and year before deer). I also take any old meat I
can talk friends out of. I use freecycle. I don't under any
conditions buy any pre-made dog food. I can feed 2 Great Danes and
2 cats for about $60 - $70/mo.

Because of the money I save getting some of the cheap stuff I can
buy them more expensive meats sometimes when on sale. I have bought
t-bone steaks, serloin steaks, cube steaks, and beef roasts as well
as other pork cuts. These are all from the grocery store at cheaper
than average sales.

(And they say men can't shop!) :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Michelle G. Heimendinger" michelle@hdinger.com michellegallik
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:33 pm ((PST))

Hi all. Ok, my standard poodle pup is about 7 lbs and 11 weeks. She is getting approx. 3 ½ tablespoons of ground meats 3 times a day but still looking for food. I will give her some chunks tonight or if I find a turkey neck. Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I be giving her more until she seems satiated ?

Michelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

<michelle@...> wrote:
>
>Ok, my standard poodle pup is about 7 lbs and 11 weeks. She is
>getting approx. 3 ½ tablespoons of ground meats 3 times a day
>but still looking for food.

I'm new to this so triple check my calculations but I think you are
underfeeding your dog

I'm guessing a fully grown standard poodle weighs around 65 lbs (not
sure about ideal weight). 2% of that is 1.3 lbs/day which is a lot, so
until you reach that weight you should feed him 10% of his body weight.

He is currently 7 lbs so target is 0.7 lbs which means 11.2 oz/day.

You are currently feeding him 3*3.5 tbps, or 10.5 tbsps; which is only
5.25 oz food.

So unless I'm missing something (and I'm new to this so check my data)
the you're really not giving him enough!

And as a side note I wonder why you are feeding him grounded meat? I
think he would do better on simply getting pieces of meat to chew on?

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (6)
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10c. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Jennifer Smith" oldbones929@alltel.net oldbones929
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:27 pm ((PST))

Hi Michelle,
I don't think that 3 1/2 tbls is enough for a growing pup, I'd suggest
giving her 3/4 cup of ground meat 3 times a day and/or maybe some chicken
necks to snack on periodically. If she starts to gain too much weight you
can always cut back a bit. Pups use a lot of energy playing and growing so
I think she needs a bit more food. Does the ground meat have bone in it?
If not you'll need to give some sort of calcium supplement, since meat
without bone is not balanced.

Jennifer

-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Michelle G. Heimendinger
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:21 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re:Amounts for a puppy

Hi all. Ok, my standard poodle pup is about 7 lbs and 11 weeks. She is
getting approx. 3 ½ tablespoons of ground meats 3 times a day but still
looking for food. I will give her some chunks tonight or if I find a turkey
neck. Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I be
giving her more until she seems satiated ?

Michelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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10d. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

Michelle,

That doesn't sound like enough food. She should be eating approximately
2-3% of her expected adult weight per day. But I would get away from the
ground and try something larger. In an earlier message today, Chris listed
reasons to not feed chicken necks or ground foods and had some good
suggestions for puppy feeding. If you didn't see that message, it would be
worth going back and viewing.

Many of the puppy feeders will feed things like chicken quarters, let pup
eat until full and then refrigerate for another meal.
Take a look at these pictures to give you a better idea.....
http://homepage.mac.com/rhbmgmt/PhotoAlbum14.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Michelle G. Heimendinger" <michelle@hdinger.com>

Hi all. Ok, my standard poodle pup is about 7 lbs and 11 weeks. She is
getting approx. 3 ½ tablespoons of ground meats 3 times a day but still
looking for food. I will give her some chunks tonight or if I find a turkey
neck. Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I
be giving her more until she seems satiated ?

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "April" akakeck@hotmail.com akapitrescue
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

> > How many times week is it ok to feed eggs ?> >

I feed all my dogs, pups too, 1 whole egg 2-3 times per week. All seem
to really like them and no side effects since first week or two. The
only thing I saw then was exceptional oder from stools, cleared by end
of 2nd week in longest case.

April Keck

Messages in this topic (5)
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11b. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

I feed raw egg about 2 per week. I don't feed daily.

It is high protin source(very digestable source of protin),but since most of cal comes from fat(EB egg that I feed gives half the cal from fat) and I try to loose my dog weight so,2 is max that I give.Instead,I rotate between Tripe side dish and Egg.

She did not get Egg today but,she goes nuts about tripe balls for side dish today:-P

She keep licking the zip bag like crazy. Her mouth smell like tripe today but that is ok,she enjoyed the meal.

yassy and palette who lost half pound this week

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Messages in this topic (5)
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12. Gullet
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

Has anyone fed Gullet to dog? I have just ordered Beef Gullet from Hare today. I should get it next week or so. I like to know if bone is hard or softer side.

I read that is cartilidge with a little meat on it so,I got it.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:21 pm ((PST))

Hi Julie.

My dog likes to eat on the carpet, so I simply put a big towel above the carpet, put the meat down, and she eats it right there. Then I wash the towels. I'm not sure what to suggest if your dog is carrying food all over the house. Coudl you confine the dog to an easily cleaned room in that case, and just wipe up the floor afterward?

Because Dora doesn't really eat out of a bowl, I just use the towel method. It works great, because she's a neat eater. If find she doesn't stray from the bath sized towel. Plus there are no nasty bowls to clean. Yay!

Monica

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12439

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Amounts for a puppy
From: Carlye
1b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Robert Ekendahl

2a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: Giselle
2b. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: Tina Berry

3a. Re: Introducing organs
From: mozookpr
3b. Re: Introducing organs
From: Debbie
3c. Re: Introducing organs
From: Giselle
3d. Re: Introducing organs
From: costrowski75
3e. Re: Introducing organs
From: carnesbill

4.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
From: mathamgri
5c. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
From: mathamgri

6.1. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
From: Belinda van de Loo

7.1. Re: liver
From: Belinda van de Loo

8a. Re: Raw puppy menu - help in planning
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: How to post photos?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: homesforallpets
10b. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: homesforallpets

11a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Shelly

12.1. Thanks
From: mathamgri
12.2. Re: Thanks
From: candace spaur

13a. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
From: Tina Berry

14. Re: Seared liver lovers
From: Susan Fortune

15. expertise
From: bek67

Messages
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1a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Carlye" reidhaven@catahouligans.com milk_jockey
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:32 am ((PST))

Just checking to be sure: do you feed a puppy 10% of it's current body
weight until that exceeds 2-3% of his expected weight? Is it best to
start them with chicken? Are there any other tricks that I should
know?

Thanks all!
Carlye
with Scooter, Rodeo, Kenzie and Angus

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

I'm only a newbie and in the same boat as you as I'm about to switch my
two German shepherds onto raw (tonight).

I think your understanding is correct in that you feed 10% of current
weight of the puppy until that exceeds 2-3% of her ideal adult body
weight (guessed). So for my 14 month german shepherd I should clearly
feed 2-3% of ideal weight (say 90 lbs), or 1.8 lbs instead of 10% of
65lbs (current) (6.5 lbs). Remember that 1.8 lbs is not the same as 1
lbs and 8 oz but rather 1lbs and 12.8 oz; something I almost missed (as
I'm originally from Europe).

CarnesBill has a good website for how to start:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

<http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm>

My plan is to go with chicken backs (1.8 lbs/day) for both my dogs for
one week, then expand into either pork or turkey a few meals/week. Once
their stools are more regular I will feed meatier pieces then chicken
backs some meals; and once they eat 3-4 kinds of protein without upset
stomach I will start to add in organs like liver and kidney to round it
out. Once they're used to it I will try to vary the meals as much as I
have energy/money for but a bulk of it will be cheaper chicken parts to
allow for fancier food a couple of times a week.

I just switched my cat over and it's actually easier then it sounds to
feed them raw. Just take the meat out of the fridge and give it to them.

/Robert

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:36 am ((PST))

Hi, Vanita!
Oh, eggs are good food!

Most dogs seem to like eggs, once they figure out that they're not strange
balls!

Um, your pups may be fine, with no fall out from the single egg. But, eggs
can be loosening, and make the dog's emission's extremely fragrant. The more
often you feed eggs, the greater the chance is of getting that kind of side
effect, at least at first.

Some people feed an egg a day to their dogs. I forget, and feed eggs
intermittently and infrequently.
I'd recommend that you feed an occasional egg, and let your and your dog's
comfort tell you when its too much.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Hi everyone,
>
> I have just given my pups a raw egg each for dinner. They seem fine .
> How many times week is it ok to feed eggs ? They are 4 months each -
> a Lhasa & a Spaniel
>
> Vanita
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

I feed an egg daily but you have to work up to it.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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3a. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
Heart is fed as a muscle meat, as are gizzards.
>

That's why I wondered about variety. So many of the easily procurable
items that function as organs in the body are fed as meatymeat.

I will be introducing some whole prey as soon as I get my freezer. I
located a nice big one yesterday for $100 (yay!) but cannot pick it up
until some of the snow and ice have melted from its current rural home.

Thanks for the advice, as always!

Wendy

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "Debbie" alabamdeb2@yahoo.com alabamdeb2
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 am ((PST))

***although occasionally I come up with a find of sweetbreads, too.***

Are sweetbreads considered organ meat?? I found some of those at Wal-
Mart but didn't know what they were. Are they ok to feed (not bleached
or scalded)?

Thanks,
Deb

Messages in this topic (8)
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3c. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:11 am ((PST))

Hi, Deb!
There was some discussion about sweetbreads on this list awhile
ago. Most sites I checked (cooking/recipe/general info) seemed not to have a
consensus - but they *are* either thymus or pancreas. I thought pancreas,
others thought thymus. I think it may be a regional/ethnic thing.

Both are good food, wherever you can get them, and are organs.

They tend to be spendy, when you can find them at all.

TC
Giselle

On Dec 31, 2007 10:44 AM, Debbie <alabamdeb2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ***although occasionally I come up with a find of sweetbreads, too.***
>
> Are sweetbreads considered organ meat?? I found some of those at Wal-
> Mart but didn't know what they were. Are they ok to feed (not bleached
> or scalded)?
>
> Thanks,
> Deb
>
>
>
>

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3d. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:34 am ((PST))

"Debbie" <alabamdeb2@...> wrote:
>
> Are sweetbreads considered organ meat??
*****
Well, they're either the pancreas or the thymus and both are glands not
organs; but they're also not meat so "organs" works fine. Yes, you can
count them (if you're counting) as part of that 5%-7% of the diet that
is organs but not liver.

I found some of those at Wal-
> Mart but didn't know what they were. Are they ok to feed (not
bleached
> or scalded)?
*****
They'll have been cleaned of course, but I believe they are raw as
liver is raw.
Chris O

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3e. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Well, they're either the pancreas or the thymus and both are
> glands not organs; but they're also not meat so "organs" works fine.

Hehe, I don't think you want to start a gland/organ discussion.
Actually both thimus and pancreas ARE organs but they are also
glands. Other body components that are both a gland and organ include
liver, kidneys, pituitary gland, spleen, lympth nodes.

An organ is a grouping of tissues into a distinct structure, as a
heart or kidney in animals or a leaf or stamen in plants, that
performs a specialized task.

A gland is a cell, a group of cells, or an organ that produces a
secretion for use elsewhere in the body or in a body cavity or for
elimination from the body.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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4.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:37 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
>
> can you tell me if you ever had a dog choke on small bones from
> fish?

Never had a dog choke on any kind of bone. I've had dogs "bring
back up" bones for re-chewing but I don't call that choking.

> What kind and how many dogs do you have Bill?

I have 2 Great Danes and 2 cats.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (46)
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5a. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

"mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:
When I first started him on raw meat, I made my
> own dog food following Pitcairn's recipes. Lots of grains and
> additives, a lot of work but worth it, I thought. My dogs health and
> well-being improved vastly on Pitcairn. I attribute that now to the
raw
> meat. But the point is, at that time they got ground meat in the mix
> and no bones.
*****
This is especially interesting, since if you were following Pitcairn
you were feeding grains and I've also read that getting rid of the
grains will help clean up the teeth. So there you are, feeding grains
and not feeding bone. So it must be something else. I assume you did
not give your dogs recreation bones or chew toys either?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:38 am ((PST))

--- Are you saying they were not cleaned up
> beautifully after the vets dental cleanings? And got cleaned up
> beautifully after introducing the raw meats? Did you keep up with the
> vet dental cleanings during the this change in diet and are you still
> taking them to the vet for that service? I'm a little confused.
> Prism
>
>
> Sorry for the confusion. Yes, they cleaned up okay after the dental
visits, but tarter would accumulate quickly between visits. Two or
three years before I changed to raw using the Pitcairn diet, I quit
having his teeth cleaned so he had quite a bit of tarter when he
started on Pitcairn. After a relatively short time on Pitcairn, I
noticed that the tarter was disappearing and they cleaned up quite
nicely on their own. Of course, I wasn't feeding bone and only feeding
ground meat at the time, so I wonder what properties in meat would
bring about this change. Now that I have evolved to Prey-model, all my
kids have sparkling teeth and no sign of gum problems.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:39 am ((PST))

I assume you did
> not give your dogs recreation bones or chew toys either?
> Chris O

Hi Chris,\

I did not give them rec bones but did give them rawhide chewies, but no
different than when they were on the kibble.

Hannah
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6.1. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com auntielindyloo
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
> How were the teeth lost exactly, thru falling out or a dental visit
to have them out? > Thanks! Prism

I think it was the gum disease that made them so loose in the first
place. They were very loose and we pulled them out ourselves.
Now that the gums are healthy, I think that's what makes the
tooth "tighten up".

Belinda

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7.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com auntielindyloo
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

Guess I'm not too sure about losing the effects of raw when you
dehydrate. But it gets the liver into them. I think processing meat
kills alot of good effects and in that case, dehydrating would be at
the low end of that scale.
Belinda
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Belinda van de Loo"
> <auntielindyloo@> wrote:
> >
> > Dehydrated liver is irresistable for the dogs! >
>
> I dry liver to use as training treats for my dogs, but doesn't the
> dryer negate the effects of raw?
>
> Hannah
>

Messages in this topic (53)
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8a. Re: Raw puppy menu - help in planning
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

"michellegallik" <michelle@...> wrote:
>
My questions are what is appropriate at what
> age ? Can my 10 week old start scarfing down neck bones ?
*****
Without knowing anything about your pup, it's hard to say. However
10 weeks is about six weeks into a pup's ability to eat raw food. Do
not delay a day longer. Regarding neck bones, most aren't worth
feeding and none should be "scarfed" down. Neck bones generally very
bony, without adequate supporting meat. They should be chomped and
crunched and generally wrestled with, for the available meat and
afterwards. As much as you can, feed food that needs more than
mere "scarfing".

Pork neck bones cut into small hunks are especially unworthy, as as
chicken necks except maybe for cats and very small dogs. Turkey
necks may be the most useful but if they're fed too small they often
encourage rash eating decisions. For a small pup, a hen turkey neck
may be fun and perhaps even some of a meal even if it's not fully
consumed; for a large 10 week old pup a hen neck may already be too
small. Consider tom (male) necks--whole, not cut in half.

I think turkey necks are good for the workout they can offer (if the
neck is big and the dog is not). Whatever meat happens during the
workout is a bonus.

> Can anyone just sort of list out what's ok for another couple of
days
> until my books from Amazon arrive?
*****
Egad what books? Since I am quite certain there are no books plural
that can help you feed a good raw diet, I can only assume you've gone
off and spent good money on books you have NO need for. I urge you
to either return them or set them aside (well aside) for reading
later (much later), after you've gotten through the beginning stages
and you're successfully into the middle with an eye towards a
successful and happy relationship with your dog's species appropriate
diet.

Now--today--the books will only confuse you and almost cetainly
inspire you to feed all mannner of unnecessary and/or inappropriate
foods in inappropriate amounts and sizes. Don't do it!

> So far, we've tapered down the kibble to organic ground organ
> meats/turkey/beef but wondered when can I just throw in parts and
let
> her go ?
*****
What size pup are you feeding?
There's rarely a need to grind food once the pup has left the
litter. Those sharp little teeth can and do eat whole meats; those
little jaws can and do power the teeth through easy but nevertheless
whole bones. Not quite sure what parts you mean to throw in but
yes, by and large that's a lovely and natural way to feed raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: How to post photos?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:11 am ((PST))

"Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
> How do I do this? I have them as public view on flickr
> on yahoo
*****
Post a message to Rawfeeding with the Flicker link to your photos.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:40 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "noahsmom8497" <noahsmom8497@...>
wrote:
>
> Okay, is it "safe" to get the meat from a grocery store or butcher?

Walmart and 2 online sites are so far my "suppliers". My girls are
doing fine on the meat I get from Walmart (am waiting for my first
order from one site and will place 1st from the other soon). I would
like to get away from walmart for them but for now it is a have to.

> Are there concerns that at some time the meat was at too low of a
> temperature since stores & butchers assume their meat will be
> thoroughly cooked?

Many of us freeze meat for our dogs for some time so temps being too
low is not an issue perhaps you meant to warm?

> Also where do you feed your dogs?

I feed my dogs on the back porch (enclosed and heated) the same place
they sleep. I scrub the floors once a day with vinegar water and wash
their blankets 2x a week. So far no health issues. Plus the dogs
can't drag the raw food around my home. I guess my suggestion is to
close off a room or part of a room that you do not mind cleaning after
they have their food.

Where do you put it inbetween feedings?

Gorge feeders just put it in the fridge between meals though I
understand some leave it out?? Correct me if i am wrong on that.

Kathy in MO

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10b. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:40 am ((PST))

>
> What about cross contamination? The dog eats a raw piece of meat
> then goes and plays with it's toys and spreads "stuff" all over the
> house. Is that a concern? Thanks again! Julie
>

Since the stuff is probably there anyway its not a big concern. From
what I have read here and else where ALL kinds of bacteria and germs
are EVERYWHERE at all times. Its mostly a matter of cleanliness and
health status. Shoot even folks with little or damaged immune systems
feed raw and they are fine. If you are worried clean the toys and
what not a little more often. It wouldn't hurt.

Kathy in MO

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11a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Shelly" stuartjlittle@verizon.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

Do a cost analysis for him, demonstrating the savings from buying in bulk and
finding deals (storing them in your freezer) vs. buying a little at a time
from the grocery store. Calculate how long it will take for the freezer to
pay for itself, then show how much money per month you would save after that.

Shelly

On Saturday 29 December 2007 17:25, Heather wrote:
....We currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
and all suggestions!!

Dane Hugs,
Heather

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12.1. Thanks
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

I guess this is off-topic, but I just wanted to say thanks to those of
you who take the time to answer so many of the questions that appear
here. This group is so much help to me, and such a revelation! You must
spend a significant amount of your time monitoring and answering
questions. And you answer the same questions over and over again, and
lend so much support. I don't know how you do it, but some of you just
seem to always be out there. Thanks so much for your time and patience.

Hannah

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12.2. Re: Thanks
Posted by: "candace spaur" candacesp@yahoo.com candacesp
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:35 am ((PST))

I'll second that sentitment Hannah.
I've just started raw feeding 3 days ago and without the knowledge and expertise in this group I would never had made the change.
Thank you group!!!!
Candace, Gadro, Garrett.

mathamgri <mathamgri@yahoo.com> wrote:
I guess this is off-topic, but I just wanted to say thanks to those of
you who take the time to answer so many of the questions that appear
here. This group is so much help to me, and such a revelation! You must
spend a significant amount of your time monitoring and answering
questions. And you answer the same questions over and over again, and
lend so much support. I don't know how you do it, but some of you just
seem to always be out there. Thanks so much for your time and patience.

Hannah

Candace
Garrett R/TPLO 8/21/07

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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13a. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

"I have a 10 week old standard poodle that I have weaned off of the kibble
that the breeder had her on. I am using a combo of meats - some raw from an
organic farm w/organ meats and I am trying tubes of Bravo for some
convenience. I have been adding cooked sweet potato, alittle raw grated
carrot or squash and green beans. She came with a powdered vitamin/enzyme
and norwegian kelp."

I weaned my gsds at 4 weeks to beef heart. No fruits, veggies, supplements
except for daily eggs and fish oil. Large chunks of meat is the best -
whatever you have available. Mine are on 100% venision and we have
invested in 3 used freezers just for the dogs. Full of meat, whatever is on
sale.

At 10 weeks I'd be feeding them 3 times daily until around 6 months; then 2
times daily until a year old. Then once a day.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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14. Re: Seared liver lovers
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:32 am ((PST))

Emu liver was refused by all four of my dogs.

I seared each serving portion on all sides, and was surprised at the aroma...yes, aroma! Normally, the smell of liver gags me.

I made all sorts of "mmmmmm....." noises as I slipped the cooled liver into the bowls.

The min-pin scarffed it.

The cattle dog sniffed & ate it.

The akita/aussie shepherd (Princess Guen) sniffed, licked, looked, nibbled, consumed.

The 92# yellow lab stared at me like I was once again attempting to poison him by stealth. When I cubed the seared liver, it became acceptable.

Turn on the overhead fan, & sear the liver. Yummy.

Susan
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 1410 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

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15. expertise
Posted by: "bek67" bek67@yahoo.com bek67
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign all emails +++++

I've been feeding my GSD, Tessa, raw food since she was a puppy.
She eats primarily chicken, with beef, pork, turkey, eggs or organ
meat a few times a week. Tessa is 2 now, and all has been going
well with her health and happiness.

The only problem is that she has always had itchy ears and
periodically an itchy foot. I've taken her to the vet for her ears,
and they have checked them and said that she is fine, no infection,
mites or anything undesirable in her ears. I've been concerned
about an alergy, but I introduced the meats very slowly and one at a
time, and never noticed any increased itching or such during the
process.

A few weeks ago, her ears became very itchy and painful. I took her
to the vet, and she had a bacterial and fungal infection that they
thought looked chronic. The vet was immediately concerned about a
food alergy, and I explained that she is on a raw diet and didn't
think that was as great of a possibility. The vet was accepting of
this and also suggested that it could be something in the
environment that she is alergic to. They put her on medication that
has cleared up the infection, but now that she's finished with the
meds, she's starting to scratch her ears some again.

Does anyone have any experience with food alergies on a raw diet?
Any suggestions about what to try first? Other than meat and bones,
she gets treats of fruits and vegetables sometimes. (We live in
South Florida, and a bite of my apple or carrot must be very
refreshing to her.) I've thought and thought about what she could
be alergic to in the environment, and of course it could be a number
of things. I don't clean with strong cleaners, and I don't use the
same one time after time. Laundry detergent maybe? She does sleep
on the bed, and the comforter is washed frequently. I want to
figure this out, and I don't want to medicate my dog again. She
didn't feel good while taking the meds.

I would certainly appreciate any suggestions from the group.

I wish everyone a Happy New Year!!

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