[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12442

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: Ania Tysarczyk
1b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1c. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: kevinedc_la

2a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Betty
2b. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: ilovemy2bichons
2c. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Sandee Lee
2d. Where I bought raw beef bones
From: Betty
2e. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Betty

3a. Re: Gullet
From: Ania Tysarczyk
3b. Re: Gullet
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Gullet
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3d. Chris, what kind of dogs do you have?
From: Betty

4a. 5 week old pups
From: nikkisevy@aol.com
4b. Re: 5 week old pups
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

5a. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: steph.sorensen
5b. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: Ania Tysarczyk
5c. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: diannem200400

6a. Re: What is a recreational bone?
From: Giselle

7. introducing new protein.
From: recyclerat@aol.com

8a. Amounts for a puppy
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Aggression with bone
From: costrowski75
9b. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Morledzep@aol.com
9c. Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: Betty

Messages
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1a. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Hi Kevin,

Are you feeding some organ meats? Some organ meats are important, so
is the Salmon oil. The probiotics are not needed and veggies are
optional. You can probably add a little more boneless meat to the diet
if you want. And you don't have to grind :)

On the knuckle bones...depends what your dog does with them. Just be
careful because very hard inedible bones have been known to break
teeth.

Ania

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Kevin,
If you can get your dogs to eat fish, there would be no need for the adding of anything extra.
We feed prey model diet here, meaning we don't add any veggies or other stuff, with the meat, organs, and bones, there really is no need to add other stuff, and fish is meat.:)
Mine wouldn't eat fish at first, fresh fish, then someone suggested canned mackeral, and they love it, so it helps make up the difference.
Knuckle bones are ok for my dogs, but they can devour anything, it depends on your dogs. If they are gulpers, you might rethink that one, if not, you are probably ok. Only you know, try it and watch, supervise and see how it goes.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:35 pm ((PST))

"kevinedc_la" <cahill_kevin@...> wrote:
> I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing well,
I
> am concerned about balance.
*****
Don't be. At least, confine your balance concerns to riding a bicycle
or the artistic considerations of photography or painting or
architecture. When feeding dogs, balance is an unnecessary burden.
When feeding dogs, balance is something dogfood manufacturers worry
about in laboratory situations.

I purchased a grinder that can grind
> chicken bones.
*****
Return it if you can get your money back. If you cannot get your money
back, learn to make sausages, and perhaps grind your own fresh
hamburger. You will never need it to feed your dog. Your dog has
built-in grinders called teeth. These spiffy tools can without
question chomp and crush anything a grinder can. And while grinding
does nothing to promote the health of the grinder, chomping and
crushing edible bone promotes dental health, mental health--and good
clean fun--for the dog.

I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
> legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
> Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics.
*****
Why are you doing this? Is your dog very ill or very old? Assuming
neither, please stop this silliness. Stop grinding what you dog can
easily process on its own, stop feeding small parts and start feeding
whole meats and whole edible bones.

Feed chicken intact with its bones; feed a variety of meats whole and
without veggies or additional prefab food; use probiotics only if your
dog has digestive issues that cannot be addressed by diet alone. Let
your dog eat as your dog is meant to eat. All the necessary equipment
is there. Use it.

I was going to add some
> Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
> chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
> occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?
*****
You are feeding raw instead of not raw which is good and a good
beginning but that's about the extent of it. Don't worry about
supplementing with Omega 3. You got some housecleaning to do first.
No more prefab food, no more ground anything, no more veggies.

Think whole meats, whole organs, whole edible bones. Mostly meat, some
organs, some bones. That's it. Uncomplicate your life. Uncomplicate
your dog's menu. When you're comfortably feeding meaty bones and whole
meats and hunks of heart and liver, then you can think about
supplements. You might want to check out http://rawfeddogs.net for
some great recipe ideas.

Veal knuckle bones are probably the least invasive recreation bones but
even with that tentative recommendation they are not worth chancing.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "kevinedc_la" cahill_kevin@hotmail.com kevinedc_la
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the input...now I am a little confused. I have read that
bone is pretty critical. And since my 11 yr old Lab won't chew (
only gulps them down) chicken bones, I decided to grind them. If no
chicken grinding and no knuckle and weight bearing bones, what do you
suggest? ribs, other meaty beef bones?
Thanks,
Kevin

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Kevin, you do not need a grinder. "Balance" in a carnivore's diet
means
> tons of meat, a little edible bone and organs. No veggies, no
probiotics,
> no Bravo's...and definitely no knuckle bones. Think meat...look at
their
> normal prey...80% meat in nice large chunks, 10% edible bone and
10% organs.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "kevinedc_la" <cahill_kevin@...>
>
>
> I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing
well, I
> am concerned about balance. I purchased a grinder that can grind
> chicken bones. I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
> legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
> Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics. I was going to add some
> Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
> chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
> occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Well, if your dog's teeth now look like my dog's before pics, and
they were worse when you started that is amazing! Good for you! You
can still take those before pics and post!
Prism

> I wish I had thought to do this with my 11yo sheltie. His teeth
were horrendous, and his breath was like a toxic waste dump. The vet
had been after me to take him in for a cleaning, but I was very
hesitant to have him put under.
Looking forward to seeing your 'after' pics in a couple weeks!
Lisa

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "ilovemy2bichons" ilovemy2bichons@yahoo.com ilovemy2bichons
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:41 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++

Where do you buy the beef rib bones? Are those better for getting the
teeth clean? I have a 15 yo bichon who I am hesitant to get her teeth
cleaned although they are really bad.

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:49 pm ((PST))

No, rib bones are not better for tooth cleaning...in fact they could harm
teeth if not fed in slabs and removed once the meat and gristle is taken off
the bones. Bare beef bones generally wear and break teeth. Stick with raw
meaty edible bones, tough skin and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ilovemy2bichons" <ilovemy2bichons@yahoo.com>

Where do you buy the beef rib bones? Are those better for getting the
teeth clean? I have a 15 yo bichon who I am hesitant to get her teeth
cleaned although they are really bad.

Messages in this topic (7)
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2d. Where I bought raw beef bones
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

I bought mine at a local supermarket, they happened to be on sale and
I got a rack for like $6.00. Someone had said they are shaped so much
better for the cleaning of the teeth and I'm apt to agree so far as my
dog's teeth are looking better. He also loves them! I took some pics
again tonight, and it's only day 4 but already they are showing
improvement. I give my dog one rib bone a day for now. I'll cut back
when I feel I should..or he has no interest in a daily bone like that.
Today, he left the bone sitting and didn't want it so I put it back in
the fridge and gave it to him late afternoon. He's been working it
ever since.
Prism
_______________
> Where do you buy the beef rib bones? Are those better for getting the
> teeth clean? I have a 15 yo bichon who I am hesitant to get her teeth
> cleaned although they are really bad.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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2e. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Oh, gosh really?! Oh my..so much contradictory info. to wade thru.
What is one to think and then do? What is a meaty edible bone then?
I've given him meaty chicken bones like thighs and wings..they didn't
clean my dogs teeth that great. I can understand to remove a cleaned
bone, but I do that with the rib bones and there is nothing to remove
after he's eaten a meaty chicken bone. Chicken bones don't really have
all that much gristle on them like the rib bones do. Why would I give
my 9 lb. dog a rack of raw rib bones? What's the difference between
cleaning one side of a slab and then the other side of the slab
compared to cleaning one side of one bone and then the other side of
that bone?
Prism

> No, rib bones are not better for tooth cleaning...in fact they could
harm teeth if not fed in slabs and removed once the meat and gristle
is taken off the bones. Bare beef bones generally wear and break
teeth. Stick with raw meaty edible bones, tough skin and fat.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

I have. I have a few in the freezer right now. They are soft. No bone,
just cartilidge with a little meat covering it. My dogs like them.
They do get some good chewing on them before they are eaten
completely. They are good for the joints too!

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone fed Gullet to dog?

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:42 pm ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone fed Gullet to dog?
*****
I have but I do not now. The ones from greentripe.com are just too
small for my dogs. Even butterflied (no easy task) they are
precariously close to being "oh I can swallow this" size. Not worth
it, for me. OTOH, whole tracheas--a foot long or so--are good chews.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/31/2007 2:27:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

I read that is cartilidge with a little meat on it so,I got it.

Yassy,

it's all cartilage, some meat and a touch of fat and connective tissue.
there is NO bone. the ones we get from greentripe.com usually are about the size
of a large man's fist up to about the size of a softball, just about a meal for
any one of my dogs. my dogs love em, except pugsly, who would get the most
benefit from eating them.. lol.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Chris, what kind of dogs do you have?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Just wondering..it's getting difficult to know who has what with the
newness..sorry if you already stated that.
Prism

OTOH, whole tracheas--a foot long or so--are good chews.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. 5 week old pups
Posted by: "nikkisevy@aol.com" nikkisevy@aol.com mavreenhering
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Hello All,

I have a litter of 5 week old pups and wanted to know if I could
throw in some meaty bones for them to chew on. I thought they might be able
to get some of the meat off but not chew the bone. Is this something I can do
or is it not good for them to have the bones yet? this is my first raw fed
litter so I am very new and this and can use all the help you guys have.

Have a Happy New Year!!!

Nicole

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: 5 week old pups
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:48 pm ((PST))

yes, throw them in, and watch the fun start:)
And congrats on the litter, and happy new year!
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

My girls have been eating that very thing for the last few days. I
do recommend something with a little less bone for a day or so
afterwards to balance it out, since the bone content is still pretty
high in neck bones, but those are just fine and completely safe to
serve as a meal.

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lmartin828@...> wrote:
>
> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone
for them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.
>
>
>
> Also are they safe?
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.weeworld.com/home/lmartin828/>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

I feed them as a meal and feed boneless meat the next day. You can
also feed them with a side of boneless meat.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lmartin828@...> wrote:
>
> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone
for them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.
>
>
>
> Also are they safe?
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.weeworld.com/home/lmartin828/>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:12 pm ((PST))

"Lisa" <lmartin828@...> wrote:>
> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone
for them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.
*****
They're probably not quite meaty. Quite meaty is when you can't see
the bone for the meat. Pork neck bones are heavily trimmed bones.
Pork neck roasts would be meaty. Pork shoulder roasts would be meaty.

Pork neck bones tend to be sold in two versions. There's the small
hunks cut to the size of a deck of playing cards, plus/minus, which are
generally too small for most dogs. And there's the larger stretch of
neck, usually curved into a section of shoulder, weighing a pound or
so. These are no more meaty but they're can be a good workout and if
fed with meat (or if a meaty meal is forthcoming) it all pretty much
works out.

I can't imagine them being handed out for chewing since they are
definitely edible and that much bone without meat is likely to produce
difficult stools.

You might visit the Rawfeddogs website. Click on recipes, then look
for the pork neck bone pictures.

http://rawfeddogs.net
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Hi Lisa:

I feed whole pork necks when I want to add some bone to all meat
meals. If I'm feeding a lot of beef heart, several days in a row,
I'll add a pork neck for each dog maybe two or three times a week.
They are not as meaty as they appear, in my opinion. As for safety,
my dogs do okay on them, but I would advise you to watch your dogs to
make sure they don't try to snarf down a whole neck all at once.
Mine will often leave a small piece of the bone after they've gotten
all the meat and most of the bone, and I throw the leftover bone away
because it's always too small to be safe.

Dianne M.

> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday...don't know if these would be considered a meal,


> Also are they safe?

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: What is a recreational bone?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:53 pm ((PST))

Hi, Prism!
A w/rec/k bone, or recreational bone, AKA as marrow or soup
or knuckle or dog bone - is a real bone, mostly they are cow bones, either
cooked or uncooked.

They are too hard, too dense and imo, don't have enough meat on them to have
any redeeming value.

They are also well known for wearing teeth down and causing tooth breakage.

Better to feed large, engaging animal parts with lots of meat and some
edible bone - these provide nourishment and dental, mental, emotional and
physical workouts.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Is it a real bone or manufactured bone?
> Prism
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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7. introducing new protein.
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

Hey all,

quick question regarding introducing a new protein -

we've been feeding chicken to my Rot...he's had other proteins in the
passed..but it seems i've got him stabilized on chicken after a hardcore issue
2 weeks ago...i've never given him pork before..but i found a sale today on a
huge hunk of pork roast - so i bought one -

wondering the best way to introduce this new protein...or if i even should -
he's doing really well on chicken and the occasional fish (he doesn't like
fish much - but eats it if it's all i offer for a day).

how long can i safely feed only mainly chicken? (i give him the livers that
come inside)

he's a rot..used to be big, but never over 120 lbs...but now is probably
only pushing 85-90.

thanks.

.heather.

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Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:49 pm ((PST))

"Jennifer Smith" <oldbones929@...> wrote:
> I don't think that 3 1/2 tbls is enough for a growing pup, I'd
suggest
> giving her 3/4 cup of ground meat 3 times a day and/or maybe some
chicken
> necks to snack on periodically.
*****
Um, I'm not sure where you've been but I don't think it's to the list
archives. Ground meat is not necessary; even a pup can--and should--
be working on whole meats; and chicken necks are not snacks, they're
basic food, albeit pretty small and meatless. For a small dog, for a
small dog puppy, and for cats they may be useful, at least for a
while, but they're not the only bones available to pups. Bones with
meat, like rib-in chicken breasts and quail are quite nice. Snacks?
I don't think so.

Does the ground meat have bone in it?
> If not you'll need to give some sort of calcium supplement, since
meat
> without bone is not balanced.
*****
Not every meal needs bone, not even for pups; and boneless meals do
not need calcium supplements. Meat without bone is not a threat or a
deficiency, it's just meat without bone. "Balance" as you apply the
term is artifice; balance as it occurs in nature happens over time,
eventually, sooner or later, in the long run, more or less, and in
the larger view.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:55 pm ((PST))

ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN

Please take all training discussions to RawChat or private. This
includes resource guarding. Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:22:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ols@charter.net writes:

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

Amanda,

Resource guarding is a training issue.. not a subject for raw feeding.

But, WRECK bones are just that..they can and do break teeth. IF you dog
needs more stuff to chew then buy pork skin or a pork face mask at an asian store,
they are rough and tough and chewy and they not only provide loads of
entertainment, they clean teeth and don't damage them.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (9)
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9c. Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:57 pm ((PST))

Chris, how do I get a photo album placed on the photo pages of my dog?
And can you please explain (I've been reading, following links, and
doing a lot of research in regard to this raw feeding issue) if I'm
doing right or wrong by giving my dog raw rib bones, one at a time to
help him clear up some of his teeth issues? This shouldn't be so
difficult and so diverse in opinion should it?
Prism

> ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN
> Please take all training discussions to RawChat or private. This
> includes resource guarding. Thank you.
> Chris O
> Moderation Team
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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