[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12439

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Amounts for a puppy
From: Carlye
1b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Robert Ekendahl

2a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: Giselle
2b. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
From: Tina Berry

3a. Re: Introducing organs
From: mozookpr
3b. Re: Introducing organs
From: Debbie
3c. Re: Introducing organs
From: Giselle
3d. Re: Introducing organs
From: costrowski75
3e. Re: Introducing organs
From: carnesbill

4.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
From: mathamgri
5c. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
From: mathamgri

6.1. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
From: Belinda van de Loo

7.1. Re: liver
From: Belinda van de Loo

8a. Re: Raw puppy menu - help in planning
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: How to post photos?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: homesforallpets
10b. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: homesforallpets

11a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Shelly

12.1. Thanks
From: mathamgri
12.2. Re: Thanks
From: candace spaur

13a. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
From: Tina Berry

14. Re: Seared liver lovers
From: Susan Fortune

15. expertise
From: bek67

Messages
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1a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Carlye" reidhaven@catahouligans.com milk_jockey
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:32 am ((PST))

Just checking to be sure: do you feed a puppy 10% of it's current body
weight until that exceeds 2-3% of his expected weight? Is it best to
start them with chicken? Are there any other tricks that I should
know?

Thanks all!
Carlye
with Scooter, Rodeo, Kenzie and Angus

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

I'm only a newbie and in the same boat as you as I'm about to switch my
two German shepherds onto raw (tonight).

I think your understanding is correct in that you feed 10% of current
weight of the puppy until that exceeds 2-3% of her ideal adult body
weight (guessed). So for my 14 month german shepherd I should clearly
feed 2-3% of ideal weight (say 90 lbs), or 1.8 lbs instead of 10% of
65lbs (current) (6.5 lbs). Remember that 1.8 lbs is not the same as 1
lbs and 8 oz but rather 1lbs and 12.8 oz; something I almost missed (as
I'm originally from Europe).

CarnesBill has a good website for how to start:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

<http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm>

My plan is to go with chicken backs (1.8 lbs/day) for both my dogs for
one week, then expand into either pork or turkey a few meals/week. Once
their stools are more regular I will feed meatier pieces then chicken
backs some meals; and once they eat 3-4 kinds of protein without upset
stomach I will start to add in organs like liver and kidney to round it
out. Once they're used to it I will try to vary the meals as much as I
have energy/money for but a bulk of it will be cheaper chicken parts to
allow for fancier food a couple of times a week.

I just switched my cat over and it's actually easier then it sounds to
feed them raw. Just take the meat out of the fridge and give it to them.

/Robert

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:36 am ((PST))

Hi, Vanita!
Oh, eggs are good food!

Most dogs seem to like eggs, once they figure out that they're not strange
balls!

Um, your pups may be fine, with no fall out from the single egg. But, eggs
can be loosening, and make the dog's emission's extremely fragrant. The more
often you feed eggs, the greater the chance is of getting that kind of side
effect, at least at first.

Some people feed an egg a day to their dogs. I forget, and feed eggs
intermittently and infrequently.
I'd recommend that you feed an occasional egg, and let your and your dog's
comfort tell you when its too much.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Hi everyone,
>
> I have just given my pups a raw egg each for dinner. They seem fine .
> How many times week is it ok to feed eggs ? They are 4 months each -
> a Lhasa & a Spaniel
>
> Vanita
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: How many times a week are eggs ok
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

I feed an egg daily but you have to work up to it.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
Heart is fed as a muscle meat, as are gizzards.
>

That's why I wondered about variety. So many of the easily procurable
items that function as organs in the body are fed as meatymeat.

I will be introducing some whole prey as soon as I get my freezer. I
located a nice big one yesterday for $100 (yay!) but cannot pick it up
until some of the snow and ice have melted from its current rural home.

Thanks for the advice, as always!

Wendy

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "Debbie" alabamdeb2@yahoo.com alabamdeb2
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 am ((PST))

***although occasionally I come up with a find of sweetbreads, too.***

Are sweetbreads considered organ meat?? I found some of those at Wal-
Mart but didn't know what they were. Are they ok to feed (not bleached
or scalded)?

Thanks,
Deb

Messages in this topic (8)
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3c. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:11 am ((PST))

Hi, Deb!
There was some discussion about sweetbreads on this list awhile
ago. Most sites I checked (cooking/recipe/general info) seemed not to have a
consensus - but they *are* either thymus or pancreas. I thought pancreas,
others thought thymus. I think it may be a regional/ethnic thing.

Both are good food, wherever you can get them, and are organs.

They tend to be spendy, when you can find them at all.

TC
Giselle

On Dec 31, 2007 10:44 AM, Debbie <alabamdeb2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ***although occasionally I come up with a find of sweetbreads, too.***
>
> Are sweetbreads considered organ meat?? I found some of those at Wal-
> Mart but didn't know what they were. Are they ok to feed (not bleached
> or scalded)?
>
> Thanks,
> Deb
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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3d. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:34 am ((PST))

"Debbie" <alabamdeb2@...> wrote:
>
> Are sweetbreads considered organ meat??
*****
Well, they're either the pancreas or the thymus and both are glands not
organs; but they're also not meat so "organs" works fine. Yes, you can
count them (if you're counting) as part of that 5%-7% of the diet that
is organs but not liver.

I found some of those at Wal-
> Mart but didn't know what they were. Are they ok to feed (not
bleached
> or scalded)?
*****
They'll have been cleaned of course, but I believe they are raw as
liver is raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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3e. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Well, they're either the pancreas or the thymus and both are
> glands not organs; but they're also not meat so "organs" works fine.

Hehe, I don't think you want to start a gland/organ discussion.
Actually both thimus and pancreas ARE organs but they are also
glands. Other body components that are both a gland and organ include
liver, kidneys, pituitary gland, spleen, lympth nodes.

An organ is a grouping of tissues into a distinct structure, as a
heart or kidney in animals or a leaf or stamen in plants, that
performs a specialized task.

A gland is a cell, a group of cells, or an organ that produces a
secretion for use elsewhere in the body or in a body cavity or for
elimination from the body.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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4.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:37 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
>
> can you tell me if you ever had a dog choke on small bones from
> fish?

Never had a dog choke on any kind of bone. I've had dogs "bring
back up" bones for re-chewing but I don't call that choking.

> What kind and how many dogs do you have Bill?

I have 2 Great Danes and 2 cats.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (46)
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5a. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

"mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:
When I first started him on raw meat, I made my
> own dog food following Pitcairn's recipes. Lots of grains and
> additives, a lot of work but worth it, I thought. My dogs health and
> well-being improved vastly on Pitcairn. I attribute that now to the
raw
> meat. But the point is, at that time they got ground meat in the mix
> and no bones.
*****
This is especially interesting, since if you were following Pitcairn
you were feeding grains and I've also read that getting rid of the
grains will help clean up the teeth. So there you are, feeding grains
and not feeding bone. So it must be something else. I assume you did
not give your dogs recreation bones or chew toys either?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:38 am ((PST))

--- Are you saying they were not cleaned up
> beautifully after the vets dental cleanings? And got cleaned up
> beautifully after introducing the raw meats? Did you keep up with the
> vet dental cleanings during the this change in diet and are you still
> taking them to the vet for that service? I'm a little confused.
> Prism
>
>
> Sorry for the confusion. Yes, they cleaned up okay after the dental
visits, but tarter would accumulate quickly between visits. Two or
three years before I changed to raw using the Pitcairn diet, I quit
having his teeth cleaned so he had quite a bit of tarter when he
started on Pitcairn. After a relatively short time on Pitcairn, I
noticed that the tarter was disappearing and they cleaned up quite
nicely on their own. Of course, I wasn't feeding bone and only feeding
ground meat at the time, so I wonder what properties in meat would
bring about this change. Now that I have evolved to Prey-model, all my
kids have sparkling teeth and no sign of gum problems.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:39 am ((PST))

I assume you did
> not give your dogs recreation bones or chew toys either?
> Chris O

Hi Chris,\

I did not give them rec bones but did give them rawhide chewies, but no
different than when they were on the kibble.

Hannah
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6.1. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com auntielindyloo
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
> How were the teeth lost exactly, thru falling out or a dental visit
to have them out? > Thanks! Prism

I think it was the gum disease that made them so loose in the first
place. They were very loose and we pulled them out ourselves.
Now that the gums are healthy, I think that's what makes the
tooth "tighten up".

Belinda

Messages in this topic (46)
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7.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com auntielindyloo
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

Guess I'm not too sure about losing the effects of raw when you
dehydrate. But it gets the liver into them. I think processing meat
kills alot of good effects and in that case, dehydrating would be at
the low end of that scale.
Belinda
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Belinda van de Loo"
> <auntielindyloo@> wrote:
> >
> > Dehydrated liver is irresistable for the dogs! >
>
> I dry liver to use as training treats for my dogs, but doesn't the
> dryer negate the effects of raw?
>
> Hannah
>

Messages in this topic (53)
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8a. Re: Raw puppy menu - help in planning
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

"michellegallik" <michelle@...> wrote:
>
My questions are what is appropriate at what
> age ? Can my 10 week old start scarfing down neck bones ?
*****
Without knowing anything about your pup, it's hard to say. However
10 weeks is about six weeks into a pup's ability to eat raw food. Do
not delay a day longer. Regarding neck bones, most aren't worth
feeding and none should be "scarfed" down. Neck bones generally very
bony, without adequate supporting meat. They should be chomped and
crunched and generally wrestled with, for the available meat and
afterwards. As much as you can, feed food that needs more than
mere "scarfing".

Pork neck bones cut into small hunks are especially unworthy, as as
chicken necks except maybe for cats and very small dogs. Turkey
necks may be the most useful but if they're fed too small they often
encourage rash eating decisions. For a small pup, a hen turkey neck
may be fun and perhaps even some of a meal even if it's not fully
consumed; for a large 10 week old pup a hen neck may already be too
small. Consider tom (male) necks--whole, not cut in half.

I think turkey necks are good for the workout they can offer (if the
neck is big and the dog is not). Whatever meat happens during the
workout is a bonus.

> Can anyone just sort of list out what's ok for another couple of
days
> until my books from Amazon arrive?
*****
Egad what books? Since I am quite certain there are no books plural
that can help you feed a good raw diet, I can only assume you've gone
off and spent good money on books you have NO need for. I urge you
to either return them or set them aside (well aside) for reading
later (much later), after you've gotten through the beginning stages
and you're successfully into the middle with an eye towards a
successful and happy relationship with your dog's species appropriate
diet.

Now--today--the books will only confuse you and almost cetainly
inspire you to feed all mannner of unnecessary and/or inappropriate
foods in inappropriate amounts and sizes. Don't do it!

> So far, we've tapered down the kibble to organic ground organ
> meats/turkey/beef but wondered when can I just throw in parts and
let
> her go ?
*****
What size pup are you feeding?
There's rarely a need to grind food once the pup has left the
litter. Those sharp little teeth can and do eat whole meats; those
little jaws can and do power the teeth through easy but nevertheless
whole bones. Not quite sure what parts you mean to throw in but
yes, by and large that's a lovely and natural way to feed raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: How to post photos?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:11 am ((PST))

"Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
> How do I do this? I have them as public view on flickr
> on yahoo
*****
Post a message to Rawfeeding with the Flicker link to your photos.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:40 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "noahsmom8497" <noahsmom8497@...>
wrote:
>
> Okay, is it "safe" to get the meat from a grocery store or butcher?

Walmart and 2 online sites are so far my "suppliers". My girls are
doing fine on the meat I get from Walmart (am waiting for my first
order from one site and will place 1st from the other soon). I would
like to get away from walmart for them but for now it is a have to.

> Are there concerns that at some time the meat was at too low of a
> temperature since stores & butchers assume their meat will be
> thoroughly cooked?

Many of us freeze meat for our dogs for some time so temps being too
low is not an issue perhaps you meant to warm?

> Also where do you feed your dogs?

I feed my dogs on the back porch (enclosed and heated) the same place
they sleep. I scrub the floors once a day with vinegar water and wash
their blankets 2x a week. So far no health issues. Plus the dogs
can't drag the raw food around my home. I guess my suggestion is to
close off a room or part of a room that you do not mind cleaning after
they have their food.

Where do you put it inbetween feedings?

Gorge feeders just put it in the fridge between meals though I
understand some leave it out?? Correct me if i am wrong on that.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (9)
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10b. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:40 am ((PST))

>
> What about cross contamination? The dog eats a raw piece of meat
> then goes and plays with it's toys and spreads "stuff" all over the
> house. Is that a concern? Thanks again! Julie
>

Since the stuff is probably there anyway its not a big concern. From
what I have read here and else where ALL kinds of bacteria and germs
are EVERYWHERE at all times. Its mostly a matter of cleanliness and
health status. Shoot even folks with little or damaged immune systems
feed raw and they are fine. If you are worried clean the toys and
what not a little more often. It wouldn't hurt.

Kathy in MO

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11a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Shelly" stuartjlittle@verizon.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

Do a cost analysis for him, demonstrating the savings from buying in bulk and
finding deals (storing them in your freezer) vs. buying a little at a time
from the grocery store. Calculate how long it will take for the freezer to
pay for itself, then show how much money per month you would save after that.

Shelly

On Saturday 29 December 2007 17:25, Heather wrote:
....We currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
and all suggestions!!

Dane Hugs,
Heather

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12.1. Thanks
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

I guess this is off-topic, but I just wanted to say thanks to those of
you who take the time to answer so many of the questions that appear
here. This group is so much help to me, and such a revelation! You must
spend a significant amount of your time monitoring and answering
questions. And you answer the same questions over and over again, and
lend so much support. I don't know how you do it, but some of you just
seem to always be out there. Thanks so much for your time and patience.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (30)
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12.2. Re: Thanks
Posted by: "candace spaur" candacesp@yahoo.com candacesp
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:35 am ((PST))

I'll second that sentitment Hannah.
I've just started raw feeding 3 days ago and without the knowledge and expertise in this group I would never had made the change.
Thank you group!!!!
Candace, Gadro, Garrett.

mathamgri <mathamgri@yahoo.com> wrote:
I guess this is off-topic, but I just wanted to say thanks to those of
you who take the time to answer so many of the questions that appear
here. This group is so much help to me, and such a revelation! You must
spend a significant amount of your time monitoring and answering
questions. And you answer the same questions over and over again, and
lend so much support. I don't know how you do it, but some of you just
seem to always be out there. Thanks so much for your time and patience.

Hannah

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
Yahoo! Groups Links

Candace
Garrett R/TPLO 8/21/07

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Messages in this topic (30)
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13a. Re: New puppy - raw but what else ?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

"I have a 10 week old standard poodle that I have weaned off of the kibble
that the breeder had her on. I am using a combo of meats - some raw from an
organic farm w/organ meats and I am trying tubes of Bravo for some
convenience. I have been adding cooked sweet potato, alittle raw grated
carrot or squash and green beans. She came with a powdered vitamin/enzyme
and norwegian kelp."

I weaned my gsds at 4 weeks to beef heart. No fruits, veggies, supplements
except for daily eggs and fish oil. Large chunks of meat is the best -
whatever you have available. Mine are on 100% venision and we have
invested in 3 used freezers just for the dogs. Full of meat, whatever is on
sale.

At 10 weeks I'd be feeding them 3 times daily until around 6 months; then 2
times daily until a year old. Then once a day.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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14. Re: Seared liver lovers
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:32 am ((PST))

Emu liver was refused by all four of my dogs.

I seared each serving portion on all sides, and was surprised at the aroma...yes, aroma! Normally, the smell of liver gags me.

I made all sorts of "mmmmmm....." noises as I slipped the cooled liver into the bowls.

The min-pin scarffed it.

The cattle dog sniffed & ate it.

The akita/aussie shepherd (Princess Guen) sniffed, licked, looked, nibbled, consumed.

The 92# yellow lab stared at me like I was once again attempting to poison him by stealth. When I cubed the seared liver, it became acceptable.

Turn on the overhead fan, & sear the liver. Yummy.

Susan
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 1410 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
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15. expertise
Posted by: "bek67" bek67@yahoo.com bek67
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign all emails +++++

I've been feeding my GSD, Tessa, raw food since she was a puppy.
She eats primarily chicken, with beef, pork, turkey, eggs or organ
meat a few times a week. Tessa is 2 now, and all has been going
well with her health and happiness.

The only problem is that she has always had itchy ears and
periodically an itchy foot. I've taken her to the vet for her ears,
and they have checked them and said that she is fine, no infection,
mites or anything undesirable in her ears. I've been concerned
about an alergy, but I introduced the meats very slowly and one at a
time, and never noticed any increased itching or such during the
process.

A few weeks ago, her ears became very itchy and painful. I took her
to the vet, and she had a bacterial and fungal infection that they
thought looked chronic. The vet was immediately concerned about a
food alergy, and I explained that she is on a raw diet and didn't
think that was as great of a possibility. The vet was accepting of
this and also suggested that it could be something in the
environment that she is alergic to. They put her on medication that
has cleared up the infection, but now that she's finished with the
meds, she's starting to scratch her ears some again.

Does anyone have any experience with food alergies on a raw diet?
Any suggestions about what to try first? Other than meat and bones,
she gets treats of fruits and vegetables sometimes. (We live in
South Florida, and a bite of my apple or carrot must be very
refreshing to her.) I've thought and thought about what she could
be alergic to in the environment, and of course it could be a number
of things. I don't clean with strong cleaners, and I don't use the
same one time after time. Laundry detergent maybe? She does sleep
on the bed, and the comforter is washed frequently. I want to
figure this out, and I don't want to medicate my dog again. She
didn't feel good while taking the meds.

I would certainly appreciate any suggestions from the group.

I wish everyone a Happy New Year!!

Messages in this topic (1)
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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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