[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12434

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New Member intro with question
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: New Member intro with question
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: New Member intro with question
From: Nanette
1d. Re: New Member intro with question
From: carnesbill
1e. Re: New Member intro with question
From: Sandee Lee

2.1. Re: bone
From: Sandee Lee
2.2. Re: bone
From: Laura Atkinson
2.3. Re: bone
From: Heather
2.4. Re: bone
From: T Smith
2.5. Re: bone
From: Ania Tysarczyk
2.6. Re: bone
From: Sandee Lee
2.7. Re: bone
From: Ania Tysarczyk

3a. Re: Chew Toys etc
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Giselle

5.1. Re: Hi everyone!/teeth cleaning from bone, skin, etc.
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. Re: pro-raw vets
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: pro-raw vets
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: vets
From: Giselle
7b. Re: vets
From: jhusselstein
7c. Re: vets
From: Monica Hughes

8a. Re: Little poo question
From: costrowski75

9.1. Re: Hi everyone!
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
From: costrowski75

11. meat from china
From: Amy T

12. Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions :)
From: redangelbordeaux

Messages
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1a. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:46 pm ((PST))

"nanettechols" <nanettechols@...> wrote:
We started our two dogs this week on
> chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves everything, one
> is very picky.
*****
Chicken backs aren't very much food for big dogs. Consider adding meat
to the meals, or including a meaty meal along the way. And don't sweat
the veggies, they're neither necessary nor recommended. You are
feeding wolves walkin' around in St. Bernard clothes--no veggies
required.

Picky is typically made not born, so you and the dog may have to
unlearn some bad habits.

> My meat connection is going to be slaughtering a ewe - mutton. Is this
> okay for the dogs?
*****
This is lovely dog food. However, it's kind of early to be thinking
mjutton, especially since you've already indicated some upset. Can you
lay claim to this great stuff, then stash it for later? It would be a
shame to pass it up, but feeding it right now may be counterproductive.

Welcome.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:53 pm ((PST))

Nanette,

Backs are too bony...you need to add meat...and forget the veggies! Dogs
eat meat, very little bone, a bit of organs...and no veggies! :) Mutton is
great!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "nanettechols" <nanettechols@gmail.com>

I have two St. Bernards and one St. Something along with two cats. One
of the Saints is a foster. We started our two dogs this week on
chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves everything, one
is very picky.

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "Nanette" nanettechols@gmail.com nanettechols
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

> Chicken backs aren't very much food for big dogs. Consider adding meat
> to the meals, or including a meaty meal along the way.
I just landed some turkey backs - they look very meaty along with lots
of necks. Would this be considered more meaty?

> And don't sweat the veggies, they're neither necessary nor recommended.
Yippee - they are a pain.

> Picky is typically made not born, so you and the dog may have to unlearn some bad habits.

I laughed out loud! He has always been picky - he's very skinny - but
I do know he works it to his advantage sometimes. (;-)

> This is lovely dog food. However, it's kind of early to be thinking
> mjutton, especially since you've already indicated some upset. Can you
> lay claim to this great stuff, then stash it for later?

I think I can ask him to wait for a bit. How long do you think I need
to go with the the poultry before I slip in something else. I was
thinking hamburger or?

None of them are having upset - no diarrhea, no vomiting - just
refusing the veggies!

Thank you very much!
Nanette

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nanettechols" <nanettechols@...>
wrote:
>
> We started our two dogs this week on
> chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves
> everything, one is very picky.

Mo need for veggies. Dogs are carnivores and as such only need
meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. All the
nutrients they need are contained in those 3 items. If you have had
a week of raw feeding without digestive upset, it is time to start
adding new protein sources. I suggest adding one every week or so.
You could add turkey or pork next. After those two have been
successfully added to the diet, try fish, then beef. If all is OK,
THEN maybe try a bit of mutton in small amounts at first.

In a few months you can feed as much mutton as you want but for now,
I doubt your dog's digestive system's have been built up enough to
handle them.

> So far not too much upset.

My guess is that if you eliminate the veggies, the upset will
completely go away. For the first few months I fed raw, my dogs
would get diarrhea after every veggie meal. I stopped veggies after
about 5 or 6 months and not one case of diarrhea since.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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1e. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:13 pm ((PST))

Nanette,

You will never find a meaty poultry neck or back. Think 80% meat and then
look at those backs and necks. Not even close, eh??? :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nanette" <nanettechols@gmail.com>

> I just landed some turkey backs - they look very meaty along with lots
> of necks. Would this be considered more meaty?

Messages in this topic (6)
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2.1. Re: bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:51 pm ((PST))

Ania,

I think the bigger question is if too much bone is being fed what is it
replacing? Generally meat and fat, which is the majority of a carnivore's
diet.

Small animals and birds, fed in their entirety, still fit into the same
%'s...
http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutrition/tissue_percentage_of_common_prey.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>

I try to mimic the amount you would find in a wild small animal or
bird, but I probably feed more than that feeding a very boney meal 2-
3 times a week. Though too much bone has not be a concern to me. But
I keep hearing about too much bone in the diet, so I thought you'd
be a good person to ask.

Messages in this topic (31)
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2.2. Re: bone
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:04 pm ((PST))

If you're a breeder, one of the consequences of too much bone is that the
parathyroid gland and the serum (blood) calcium levels can be all out of
whack causing uterine inertia during labor and eclampsia after whelping.

In the rest of the dog population, if you're feeding too much bone, you're
shorting the diet meat and organs (probably). While bone has nutrition
(minerals, etc), meat should be the primary ingredient in the meal
planning.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (31)
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2.3. Re: bone
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> I would say most likely you are feeding too much bone. What
exactly are you
> feeding, Heather?

The low bone/boneless meals are pork (cut off from a picnic roast)
and buffalo fish fillets. I did have some boneless venison scraps
but they are gone now (he ate on that "batch" for a year and we got
fresh deer ribs a month ago). He eats deer ribs, ox tails on
occasion, chicken, turkey, eggs, whole trout, duck, beef heart,
chicken gizzards/hearts/liver, game hens. I'm hoping to get him on
rabbit again that's fresh and not from the grocery store. He used to
eat rabbit with gusto and then he stopped. Won't eat frog legs
either. He eats lamb too but I haven't bought any for a long time as
it's expensive. I am hoping to split a goat carcass with someone as
well.. just trying to figure when they need it because it cannot all
fit in my freezer!

Heather

Messages in this topic (31)
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2.4. Re: bone
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:38 pm ((PST))

The reason we were told to adjust our dog's diets with more bone was because
their daily watery poop was taking away alot more than a little extra bone
would. The extra bone (like a turkey neck) was making their poop normal
again.
I guess we have to make choices based on our individual pet's needs.
I was worried about it, but this was what was the overall consensus for my 3
dogs' diet.
Hope that makes sense.
Trina
Not a breeder :-)

On Dec 29, 2007 7:04 PM, Laura Atkinson <llatkinson@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you're a breeder, one of the consequences of too much bone is that
> the
> parathyroid gland and the serum (blood) calcium levels can be all out of
> whack causing uterine inertia during labor and eclampsia after whelping.
>
> In the rest of the dog population, if you're feeding too much bone, you're
> shorting the diet meat and organs (probably). While bone has nutrition
> (minerals, etc), meat should be the primary ingredient in the meal
> planning.
>
> --
> Laura A
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (31)
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2.5. Re: bone
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:38 pm ((PST))

I see your point. I recall seeing a chart similar to that but also
comparing our domestic food animals like chickens and it actually
showed that chickens and such had much more % bone (due to being
bred like that) than the wild rodents/birds. It was quite
interesting. I saw it when I was a newby to raw and afraid not to
feed enough bone and it was an eye opener. It made me relax more
about their diets.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Ania,
>
> I think the bigger question is if too much bone is being fed what
is it
> replacing? Generally meat and fat, which is the majority of a
carnivore's
> diet.
>
> Small animals and birds, fed in their entirety, still fit into the
same
> %'s...
>

http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutrition/tissue_percentage_of_common
_prey.htm
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (31)
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2.6. Re: bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:01 pm ((PST))

I've heard just the opposite...that they are bred with more meat.
However, those %'s depend upon whole vs. dressed birds...makes a huge
difference.

Regardless, poultry is about nonexistent in a carnivore's diet. We need to
concentrate on their normal prey which are the large
ungulates....approximately 80% meat and 10% edible bone.

Meat protein is the most important part of the diet and responsible for
proper muscle and other tissue development.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>

I see your point. I recall seeing a chart similar to that but also
comparing our domestic food animals like chickens and it actually
showed that chickens and such had much more % bone (due to being
bred like that) than the wild rodents/birds. It was quite
interesting. I saw it when I was a newby to raw and afraid not to
feed enough bone and it was an eye opener. It made me relax more
about their diets.

Messages in this topic (31)
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2.7. Re: bone
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:38 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi Laura,

So they can actually absorb too much calcium from bone. Being a
person who is always convincing people around me to feed raw, I like
to have my information straight..LOL, so that is good to know.

My own dogs diets, I'm pretty lax about how I feed. I defrost a
baggie of whatever and feed till it's gone figuring the percentages
will work themselves out. For example, the last 2 days, they got
duck hearts, today pork brisket meaty bones, tomorrow boneless
fish....then a boneless meal, then a meal or two of chicken necks
etc...They will get the liver from the chicken I cooked today.

Their bloodwork is good after 4 1/2 years of eating like that, but I
still can't help but feel that it is still more bone than they would
get in the wild.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> If you're a breeder, one of the consequences of too much bone is
that the
> parathyroid gland and the serum (blood) calcium levels can be all
out of
> whack causing uterine inertia during labor and eclampsia after
whelping.
>
> In the rest of the dog population, if you're feeding too much
bone, you're
> shorting the diet meat and organs (probably). While bone has
nutrition
> (minerals, etc), meat should be the primary ingredient in the meal
> planning.
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (31)
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3a. Re: Chew Toys etc
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:00 pm ((PST))

Feeding a puppy is FUN! You'll be feeding him 2%-3% of his anticipated
adult weight (it's a guesstimate) and adjusting up or down based on how the
puppy looks. I let my puppies get a little pudgy, because they seem to do
overnight growth spurts and the pudge disappears. Not fat though!

Divide the daily amount into 2-3 meals. If she has consistently loose
stools, cut back the amount fed each meal and add a snack to make up the
difference.

I'm one of those who lets their dogs have nylabones to chew on/play with.
My dogs love 'em, so there are always some laying around. Once they start
biting off pieces, I toss 'em and replace.

Teething is so easy with raw-fed puppies it's practically a non-issue. I
learn that someone is loosing teeth when there's blood on the hair of hte
dog they're wrestling with. And when the rear molars are breaking, they
tend to avoid eating bone for a few days. You've not seen anything until
you've seen a puppy completely strip a turkey neck to the bone...it's
something to watch!

On Dec 29, 2007 4:53 PM, pgmgolfcoach <pgmgolfcoach@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have 2 questions,
>
> With a raw diet what difference is their between feeding a puppy and
> an adult? Its so easy to find info regarding the awful kibble diet,
> but not so much with raw feeding to puppies.
>
> And what are some healthy appropriate toys for her especially for
> chewing while teething? What have you had positive experiences with
> in the toy department? Nylabones, Kongs etc.
>
> TIA
> Callista

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Heather!
Try your local FreeCycle or craigslist for a cheap or free
freezer (or two!)
http://www.freecycle.org/
http://www.craigslist.org/about/sites.html

http://www.freesharing.org

http://www.sharingisgiving.org

http://www.reuseitnetwork.org/
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 29, 2007 5:25 PM, Heather <sansdawn@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
> My name is Heather and I live in NH with my Darling Husband, Son and 2
> Great Danes. Emmee we have had the longest, she is currently my
> Service Dog, Shelly is our rescue girl and newest family member. After
> being a SAHM for 3 years, I finally got back to the working field, and
> I'm finding some difficulties with keeping up with the raw diets :( We
> currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
> talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
> and all suggestions!!
>
> Dane Hugs,
> Heather
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5.1. Re: Hi everyone!/teeth cleaning from bone, skin, etc.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

Hi Heather,

Tougher skin (other than chicken/turkey) like from goats or pigs or
other animals does a great job of cleaning teeth. If you watch a dog
chew this, you will see how it gets up and around the teeth and gums--
it is difficult for them to rip apart and dismantle and as they work at
it, it cleans and massages. Even a big hunk of boneless, skinless
roast does some of this as they rip and tear and gnaw at it. Also
larger, more complicated parts like a goat leg where they have to
really sink their teeth in and tackle it from different angles. It's
quite amazing to watch and is really different from feeding smaller,
easier-to-eat items.

Bones are good for making the meal more challenging, and interesting,
and providing essential nutrients, and I think some abrasion is good--
especially when they're not completely bare bones. But if you're
talking about lots of gnawing and grinding on bare bones being good for
teeth, I don't think so. Is that what you meant? That means the bone
is probably too dense for the dog's teeth and could cause wear or
breakage. Just my opinion, but sadly, my dog does have 2 chipped teeth
from when I used to give him cow and buffalo marrow bones that he'd
work on for hours or days. Forgive me if that's not the kind of
abrasion you're referring to--I just wanted to clarify and add some
thoughts.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heather" <newbeginnings06@...>
wrote:
I have also read the thing that cleans teeth is abrasion, such as from
> bones. I don't believe meats or skin provide that.

Messages in this topic (31)
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6a. Re: pro-raw vets
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Monica Hughes <monicabeth10@...>
wrote:
>
> I found a website listing "pro-raw" and "OK with raw" vets
> nationwide. Where I live in Colorado, there are no vets
> listed as "pro-raw."

That website, while very good and getting better all the time, is a
very incomplete list. The only way the list knows about the vets is
for someone to write in and tell them. When you find a "pro-raw"
vet, if you don't let that list know, the vet won't be on the list.

> Incidentally, I picked up chicken leg quarters for 60 cents#
> today at Target!

You should be able to get them at Walmart for around 47 cents#
everyday.

Hormone and antibiotic free.

All chicken is hormone and antibiotic free. It is against the law
to give hormones and steriods to chickens in the USA. Antibiotics
are rarely given. It's also against the law to advertise them that
way because it would make people think there is something special
about that particular chicken, just as it did you.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: pro-raw vets
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:23 pm ((PST))

Monica Hughes <monicabeth10@...> wrote:
> Incidentally, I picked up chicken leg quarters for 60 cents# today at
Target! Hormone and antibiotic free. (It was the last package,
though!) Who woulda thunk it? :)
*****
All chicken sold in the US must be antibiotic and hormone free. Tis
the law. So even Target would have to sell the stuff. The question is
whether the quarters were enhanced or unenhanced. Probably enchanced.
Almost certainly.

That may or may not matter to you, it matters variously to others.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: vets
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:21 pm ((PST))

Hi, Deb!
Not to go OT on the OP topic, but your vet doesn't need to know
about the barfy style diet in order to understand how you feed - you don't
feed veggies, grains, fruits and supps, do you?

On this list, we call it raw feeding - 'cause we just feed lots of meat, a
little edible bone and a little organ - thats what a species appropriate
whole prey model diet is.

Why not educate her about REAL raw feeding? ^_^

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

The Merck Veterinary Manual: "The carbohydrates added to pet foods are
mainly in the form of polysaccharides (starch and cellulose),
disaccharides (sucrose and lactose), and monosaccharides (glucose and
fructose). Carbohydrates are a less expensive source of energy than
fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be **no dietary requirement
for carbohydrate**."

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
>
> My new vet said she does not know a lot about the BARF diet, but that she
> is trying to learn more about it and anything I can give her would be
> appreciated. She also said she does have a few clients who have there dogs
> on BARF as well as ones that have recently changed to, and that those are
> some of the dogs that are in the best of health. She said, she would rather
> not have someone need to bring there dog to the vet because it was sick. So
> I am lucky. I have given her some info that I have and she was really
> appreciative of that.
>

> <snip>
> Blessed Be
> Deb
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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7b. Re: vets
Posted by: "jhusselstein" jhusselstein@yahoo.com jhusselstein
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:39 pm ((PST))

Now, I know nothing about how the Math is done in these studies, but it
seems to me that if 80% of the raw food had S. but only 30% of the raw
fed stool samples had S.there you could derive a conclusion supporting
the efficiency of a dog's digestion!
Jessica

Messages in this topic (19)
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7c. Re: vets
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:13 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: all emails MUST be signed+++++++++++++

"Since no one in the raw (non-commercial)
community makes money when they educate others about proper nutrition,
there is none to be put up for a study on raw. Just alone, the Rabies
Challenge Fund needs 1.25 million for it's 5 and 7 year study on the
DOI for the rabies vaccine. I cannot imagine the amount of money
needed to study numerous dogs for their lifetime on a raw diet."

Actually, there are people who are making money on raw diets. The people who are selling the meat. I would think farmers, meat distributors, etc. would have a huge interest in promoting raw diets. Just look at how commercialized the whole organic food movement has become. Sure, the people on the ground who sell meat are legion compared to the very few corporate dog food execs. and they're not going to make millions. Still, if I was in the meat business, I'd be doing all I could to promote raw. What a great way to make money. Indeed, meat suppliers are now catering to raw feeders. And my guess is that once the raw feeding movement reaches critical mass, you'll see a whole lot more advertising about it.

Furthermore, while doing controlled experimental studies to compare raw and kibble fed dogs would be immoral, it wouldn't really take a whole lot of money to do an observational study over time based on past experiences. All kinds of studies are published in medical journals in this fashion, where they survey the patient's medical records and current condition and tie that to variables such as diet, exercise, etc. Imagine a survey in which people are simply polled about their dogs' health and feeding habits, and those are matched against the vet records. This type of research would be a suitable thesis or dissertation project for a grad student, if they could gain access to the data.

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8a. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:56 pm ((PST))

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...> wrote:
>
> LOL Chris that is what I actually meant. OK I quess I did not say it
well.
*****
Well, sometimes it's hard to know. Some people really do mean grease!
Thanks for setting the record straight.
Chris O

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9.1. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> When the dog has the dental problems this one does, he certainly does
> need editable bone every day at least until the problem has cleared
> itself up. He will always need bone more than once a week.
*****
Poppycock.
Cleaning teeth is not just about bone. It's about sinking teeth into
meat all the way up to the gumline, it's about plunging the canines
through skin (pig skin is great), it's about any number of abrasive
actions. A bone that is demolished with two chomps and some saliva is
doing not much to clean teeth. A bone such as this in every meal
simply provides the dog with a lot of bone. Feeding ineffectual bones
to clean teeth is like sucking on a toothbrush. Fat lot of good it
does.

A good, interactive bone several times a week will do a fine job of
scraping the teeth clean, but even it may not clean the gumlines. A
good, interactive bone several times a week plus some good old rip and
tear meat and something for the dog to literally sink its teeth into is
what cleans ALL the teeth.

If one finds oneself feeding bone every day to clean teeth, one should
revaluate the procss. In other words, think again.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (31)
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10a. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:18 pm ((PST))

"Lynda McLellan" <lyndam950@...> wrote:
>
> My Dane guy will also swallow a whole chicken quarters or a narrow
rack of ribs. So I feed him semi-frozen and he chews it up well.
*****
My Lab and my two goldens also swallow whole chicken quarters and
narrow racks of ribs. So I feed whole chickens and full racks. It's
never been my preference to feed frozen food. Bigger has always served
us well.

Chris O

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11. meat from china
Posted by: "Amy T" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:39 pm ((PST))

Hello-I noticed inexpensive rabbit and lamb today at my neighborhood independent grocery store (Chicago, USA). I live in an area with a big immigrant population. Both packages said that the meat was "made in China." I'm wondering if there is any meat from any country that we should avoid purchasing? I was just thinking that perhaps China wouldn't have the same standards, ie .. human grade, given their recent issues. Thanks a bunch ... I'm learning so much from you all! Amy (and Rosie)

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions :)
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:15 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone!

I've pretty much got the hang of this now but something new will
always come up I'm sure, lol.

I've been feeding my dogs Pork Kidney now for about a month and they
are doing fine with digesting and all, but a few odd behaviors have
happened with 3 out of the 7 :)

4 of them love there kidney, 1-2 chomps if that and it's gone haha.
One girl will take it from me walk away with it shake it a bit then
spit it out and will only eat it when her puppy tries to steal it
for herself. Not to worried about her she does the same thing with
chicken and turkey livers and always eats them eventually, fairly
certain that with her it's just a texture thing
The two that I have some concern about are a male who really HATES
the kidney frozen, partley frozen or thawed he always does the same
thing...take it immedieatly spit it out and then wrinkle his nose
and make the "yuckie face" as if he just got a whiff of a sharpie
pen. If I keep picking it up and hold on to it he will chomp chomp
spit but eventually will get it down but only if I play the game of -
eat this and you get the good stuff- If I just put all the food
outside for him he will eat around the kidney or take it out of his
other food and just leave it there.
Then there is my girl who did the strangest thing tonight. She did
the same behavior as my male - take and drop etc.- eventually gave
up and ate it because she wanted the rest of her dinner. This was
strange for her because she typically will eat her kidney with no
problem and did not observe my males behavior either. So after she
ate I went to put her in the bathroom while I fed another group.
When I returned to her she had horked up her entire dinner and re-
eaten all of it with the exception of the kidney! It was just laying
there in the bathroom floor, a bit shreaded but still staring up at
me in defiance, and I swear my dog was laughing at me!

So I guess this story leads to 2 questions for you all.
How important is kidney for them to eat? I really don't want to get
into the whole "sear it/hide it" game with 7 of them that's way to
much food doctering, lol.
Has anyone else experienced the selective horking up of foods?

The female is in heat and I plan to breed her this time to the male
I mentioned. This will be my first RAW litter and I want to be sure
that the "parents" are getting all the good stuff that they need :)

Thanks in advance for all the input!

Erika

Messages in this topic (1)
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