[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12425

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Question about bones
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1b. Re: Question about bones
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Question about bones
From: Patty Linden

2a. Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Alexis
2b. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Andrea
2c. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: ekendahl
2d. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Andrea
2e. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: costrowski75

3. Stater Bros. Markets in So Cal
From: Susan Fortune

4a. Jumping in starting tomorrow
From: homesforallpets
4b. Dehydrated Foods
From: eventer2001
4c. Re: Dehydrated Foods
From: costrowski75
4d. Re: Jumping in starting tomorrow
From: Heather

5a. Re: ichy skin!
From: pfs.freedom

6a. Re: GI Normous Dogs/fat content in diet
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. Bones causing perforated intestines
From: cleone4100
7b. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Tina Berry
7c. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Andrea
7d. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Heather

8a. Re: Update on Ginger (diarrhea)
From: shefy gupta

9a. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: costrowski75
9b. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: trayc2244

10a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Ania Tysarczyk
10b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: ekendahl

Messages
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1a. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:20 am ((PST))

My little pomchi used to be owned by my Aunt, before she passed away. I love this dog, she is such a great little carnivore. She takes the big dogs bones away from them (they are danes) and chews on them. She loves ribs, both beef and pork, and she likes emu ribs too. Any bone that has a little meat on it, she's happy with, and I'm sure yours would be too. My Daisy doesn't do too much damage to her teeth, but if you are worried about yours, you might stick with softer type bones, the emu is really nice and soft, even the ribs. And on pork bones, the ribs are nice enough that they can chew alot off the ends to get good bone benefit from them.
Try what you want and watch how the dog does, and see how it goes, should be just fine.
Jeni
Owned and operated by my two danes and our pomchi, and our new addition, a chihuahua, noname for now, and the cat, lucky, just lucky he's not the food for today.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:57 pm ((PST))

Patty Linden <pattykat3@...> wrote:
> My question is, will chewing on beef rib bones be good for his
teeth?
*****
Well, chewing the meat and fat and connective off the rib bones ought
to be good for his teeth. But chewing beef bones is rarely good for
any dog's teeth. Given the choice between beef bones and pork bones,
IMO there is no choice.

Pork bones (ribs, hocks, feet, arm bones, shoulder blade bones,
necks) are generally more gentle on teeth and the meat is perfectly
edible. You will need to take care with introducing the meat (tis
fatty) but since you've learned THOSE lessons well, I suspect you
won't have much trouble.

I
> like the idea of giving him a big chunk of meat with bone so he
can work on it.
*****
Yes, this is a very gratifying experience. Pork shoulders answer the
call--just trimmed out to Pom size; pork riblets (often known as
brisket bone) will do the same.

You may also want to investigate beef necks (not the slices
frequently sold in supermarkets but rather a longer stretch of a
neck). They aren't much for meat but they provide great "whittle and
pick" opportunities and for a small dog the meat they DO offer may be
just enough meat indeed. Pork necks act in pretty much the same way.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

Thank you to Chris, Sandee, Yasuko and Jeni for your answers about bones. I will save the beef bones for me, and went down and bought some large slabs of pork ribs today. Jeni--you must live in Australia? I have seen a number of people mention Emu meat and bones. I live in Spokane, WA, and have never seen them in the stores here. It sounds like pork (ribs, anyway) can be crunched and digested? I so want to find him another source of bone, rather than chicken all the time.
Many thanks,
Patty and Mica-dog

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: Patty Linden <pattykat3@...> wrote:
> My question is, will chewing on beef rib bones be good for his
teeth?
*****
Well, chewing the meat and fat and connective off the rib bones ought
to be good for his teeth. But chewing beef bones is rarely good for
any dog's teeth. Given the choice between beef bones and pork bones,
IMO there is no choice.

Pork bones (ribs, hocks, feet, arm bones, shoulder blade bones,
necks) are generally more gentle on teeth and the meat is perfectly
edible.

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Alexis" alexis78@gmail.com tiger_girl78
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:08 pm ((PST))

Has anyone heard about the possibility of rawfeeding causing a
reduction in allergic reactions by humans to dogs/cats. My boyfriend
has become increasingly allergic to my 75lb hound/husky mix and I've
started him on Raw as of about a month ago from the recommendation of
the people at our pet store. Thus far, I've been feeding him the pre-
packaged patties but after joining this group I will be starting him on
the recommended raw prey style this Friday.

I think this diet is great and will keep him on it regardless because I
can see the obvious benefits however, I would like to know if anyone
has heard of this or is it just a rumor. Thank you!

-Alexis (& Cassius)

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

Actually that is what seems to have happened with me and my bf's cats.
When we first moved in together I was taking prescription allergy
medicine every day just so I didn't scratch my own eyes out. After we
finally got them switched to raw my boyfriend observed that I didn't
compulsively take the allergy medicine anymore and I wasn't dying. I
still have to wash my hands after petting the cats, but I don't have to
take anything for allergies anymore. I don't know for sure that raw
feeding them is what did it, but I'm still allergic to my mom's kibble
addict cats.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard about the possibility of rawfeeding causing a
> reduction in allergic reactions by humans to dogs/cats.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:44 pm ((PST))

=======Mod note: pls sign all emails =============

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Actually that is what seems to have happened with me and my bf's cats.
>

I'm not sure about this. When I first adopted my cat (from the street)
I turned very allergic to her; to the point where I was almost giving
her up. At that point I stopped taking the medicine, as it was making
me drowsy, and to my surprise my symptoms went away. My cat was and is
still being fed kibble.

I think we people get either used to pets or even more allergic to
them over the first time. Not convinced it's related to raw feeding.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:49 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ekendahl" <robert@...> wrote:

> I think we people get either used to pets or even more allergic to
> them over the first time. Not convinced it's related to raw feeding.

I'm not convinced either, but I lived with my mom's cats for five years
and never got used to them. Could be a coincidence that I stopped
reacting to our cats at the same time they started eating raw food. If
only I could get my mom to switch her cats to raw I could see if it
makes any difference.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (5)
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2e. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:39 pm ((PST))

"Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>My boyfriend
> has become increasingly allergic to my 75lb hound/husky mix and I've
> started him on Raw as of about a month ago from the recommendation of
> the people at our pet store.
*****
It's possible that increased shedding due to diet change might be
causing your BF to respond badly. But increased shedding is also a
reult of dry, overheated houses and seasonal changes and stress, so
perhaps it's an assortment of environmental issues that have conspired
to bother your BF. I seriously doubt there is anything in raw food
that would cause allergies to someone who is neither eating nor
handling the meat.

Sounds like another bad rap for raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3. Stater Bros. Markets in So Cal
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:44 pm ((PST))

Whole chicken $.69 per #.
Chicken thighs or drums $.99 per #.
Beef back ribs $.67 per #.
Pork country style strips (bone in) $.99 per #.

Good Dec 26-Jan 1.

Susan
Southern California

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Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Jumping in starting tomorrow
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:35 pm ((PST))

I looked at everything I have and the majority is chicken. I have
enough to last until Monday when I can get more. I'm going to go
ahead and just jump in tomorrow. I will start with wingettes. When
they are gone they will get the . . .its either drumsticks or leg
quarters. I figure I will wait two weeks before offering any organs.

Wish me luck!

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Dehydrated Foods
Posted by: "eventer2001" eventer2001@yahoo.com eventer2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:01 pm ((PST))

Anyone have any experience (or opinions) on using dehydrated foods? Not for main meals, but as treats? Stuff like chicken liver cubes or even muscle meats? We weren't using them and something needed to be done before they went bad, so I cut up and dehydrated some chicken livers last night. I know I can't use a TON of them, but the pup doesn't have the attention span right now to have lengthy training sessions anyway. Any pros or cons? Things to watch out for or definitely NOT do (besides the obvious - no dehydrated bones of course).

Thanks
Tammy
& Reilly - aka Adama's Watchtower at TLC
Dayton, Ohio

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Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Dehydrated Foods
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:44 pm ((PST))

ADMIN NOTE: The minute this topic mutates into a "how to" discussion
it will become OT and will thefore be inappropriate for this list.
Please plan ahead. If someone has the notion to ask "how", please
ask "how" on the RawChat list, not here. Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: Jumping in starting tomorrow
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:49 pm ((PST))

How exciting! Let us know how it goes! I think you'll have fun
watching them eat. :)

Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: ichy skin!
Posted by: "pfs.freedom" staylor@chjinc.com pfs.freedom
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:36 pm ((PST))

Hey thanks for the advice. The fish oil is to help if he has dry itchy
skin, but I guess if its going to make his poops worse, I will wait on
that.
I was giving him chicken wing/leg meat and occasionly, because he is so
small, give him just one of the bones from the wing. but it is such a
pain to cut up the wings I just bought the breast with ribs so it would
be easier. should I go back to the wing bones? He has such a tiny mouth
I dont know what other kind of bones I can give him.

I thought having a small dog would be easy to feed raw, but now im
thinking it would be nice to just throw a whole carcas to a big dog.
Its cheaper at least to feed my little guy hahaha.

Shannon & Brody

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
If you change breast wityh rib bone to leg quarter or back part of
birds which has more bone than ribs,that bone amount may help the dog
to have non loose stool,maybe??

>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: GI Normous Dogs/fat content in diet
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

Hi PK,

Laurie from Seattle w/Bugs & Percy here...

I know I have a bit of a different take on fat than some others here,
but will mention my thoughts. Unless we feed wild game, we are feeding
fattier meats than nature intended, and with different fatty profiles
if they are fed grains or other inappropriate foods. When the animals
we feed have hardly moved around for their lives, and/or are fattened
up with huge amounts of unnatural grains, they just can't be as healthy
as grass-fed and, even better--wild--animals.

Now, of course, this is difficult to find and afford. So, we do the
best we can. But it is something to consider--especially if a dog is
having an issue. If you can and you haven't tried this already, I
think you might try feeding her lean cuts, cutting skin and visible fat
off, feeding grass-fed meats if you can, etc. Have you tried this
before and it has led to dry skin? I know people have mentioned adding
fat to diets to help with dry skin, but I also question this. Perhaps
if someone is feeding a lot of chicken, adding red meat of some kind
(and therefore, fat) helps. But I don't know if it's really the fat
that helps, or if it's just that the diet is improved by adding a more
appropriate protein source with different vitamins and minerals. But
if one feeds a lot of lean red meats, with some rabbit and poultry, I
would bet the skin would usually be fine. If not, it could be the
grass-fed issue. She may be showing an issue with the amount and/or
type of fats she's eating.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:
> As far as fat content is concerned all her meats can be counted as
> high fat except for venison and mice (I don' really know about the
> mice) maybe. Beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, etc. and she loves the
> bones probably more than the meat.
>
> Do you have any "low fat" suggestions that will not cause her skin to
dry?
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "cleone4100" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

I was speaking with my new boss about feeding my dogs raw (which they
are doing wonderfully on) and he told me he had a springer spaniel
which died from eating bones. He fed her kibble and periodically gave
her large, raw beef bones for fun. She began having difficulty
eliminating and then one day began hemorraging and she died on the way
to the vets. The vet performed the autopsy and told him the bone shards
had perforated her bowels over time and not to feed bones under any
circumstances. I have only been giving my dogs chicken and pork since
that is what's affordable, along with beef heart and liver when I can
get it. Does anyone know what could have caused this to happen? Was it
just the fact that she was on kibble, and the bone was too much? Or
maybe the beef bones are the culprit?? Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks, Carey and the bloodhounds

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:00 pm ((PST))

"The vet performed the autopsy and told him the bone shards had perforated
her bowels over time and not to feed bones under any circumstances. I have
only been giving my dogs chicken and pork since that is what's affordable,
along with beef heart and liver when I can get it. Does anyone know what
could have caused this to happen? Was it just the fact that she was on
kibble, and the bone was too much?"

Yep - you guessed it. Kibble fed dogs have not developed the digestive
enzymes for raw food let alone bones. So by him only giving them to her
once in awhile, that makes sense that her system could not handle digesting
the bones.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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7c. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:17 pm ((PST))

Well, first of all beef bones are really dense and some dogs may not
digest them completely. That said, I'd bet the bones were those smoked
femurs that you get from the pet store, not actually raw bones. The
cooked bones splinter and don't digest well at all.

As long as you feed edible bones (not beef femurs) that are covered
with meat your dogs will be ok. They are designed to eat that way.
It's when people feed inappropriate items like bare bones or cooked
bones that you end up with problems.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cleone4100" <cleone4100@...> wrote:

> He fed her kibble and periodically gave her large, raw beef bones for
> fun. She began having difficulty eliminating and then one day began
> hemorraging and she died on the way to the vets. The vet performed
> the autopsy and told him the bone shards had perforated her bowels
> over time and not to feed bones under any circumstances.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:49 pm ((PST))

Even bones that are thick and used mostly for chewing do not splinter
when raw. I give giant beef ribs to my dog and the best he can do with
that density is to chew the corners down about an inch and rip the
meat off. The bone he does get off is just like small gravel like
pieces, not splinters. I would never ever feed cooked "chew" bones
made for dogs because not only can this kinda stuff happen but they
can break teeth. It's so unfortunate that people think raw bones are
bad for dogs and they must give them smoked/cooked.

Heather

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8a. Re: Update on Ginger (diarrhea)
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:08 pm ((PST))

Hi kate,

glad to hear ginger is doing better. obviously something is causing the diarhea though and the prednisone is just covering up the symptoms. i think diarhea is the body's defense mechanism to push out something it doesn't agree with...

i can't remember ginger's full story over the past few months but maybe she's allergic to one of the animals or some juices in the meat...? i know snowy got itchy and that's because the chicken i got him had some juices in it of i don't know what!

it's good that she's finally gotten relief though! hopefully the vet can figure out why her body's got diarhea all the time though..

keep us posted and enjoy diarhea free holidays ;)

shefy and snowy

But I just had to tell you what my wonderful (conventional) vet said
at our visit on Friday, before prescribing the prednisone. She was
mulling over putting Ginger on an intestinal-diet kibble. I was by
that time so desperate that I would've done it, and told her so. But
she stopped and said, "I really don't want to take her off the raw
since she's doing so well on it. Clearly it is not contributing to
her problem, and I feel she won't be as healthy on canned or kibbled
food."

There is hope for change with open-minded vets like this one!

Kate

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

"trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Is this something to worry about when feeding deer meat?
*****
No, it is not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST))

Thanks, I had never heard of it and didn't know if dogs could contract
it.

Thanks again,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@> wrote:
> Oh My Gosh!!! Ania is that YOU??

***It's me :) Good to hear from you.

>
> Do you have any "low fat" suggestions that will not cause her skin
to dry?
>
>
***We actually do pretty low fat on the girls diets here. Sadie does
not do well with lots of fat (throws it up) and Sofie is kind of a
lazy bum (for a JRT) and does not burn it off. At first I was giving
Sofie more fat because she was thinner, but not only did she get fat,
she had dental surgery recently and her bloodwork came back with her
cholesterol a bit high. So, now I'm also of the opinion that the fat
content in the food should be more like in the wild. Mice, rabbits and
venison should be nice lean meats. If you can get rabbits or quail,
those are a perfect fat content and generally wild animals are very
lean. Otherwise, you can do what we do and just trim the skin and fat
off her meat.

I don't think the skin would suffer from less fat if you are
supplementing with some type of fish oil or feeding some fish once a
week or so.

I think between cutting the fat out a bit and the food down a little,
you can find a good balance for her.

I think their metabolisms change a bit as they get older just like
ours do too. I just noticed that recently in one of mine when she went
from skinny to fat without me increasing her food or decreasing her
excercise. She just seems to need less now. So, maybe yoru girl is
going through something similar.

Ania

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10b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

Ania,

A heavy dog with high cholesterol shouts hypothyroidism! Elevated
cholesterol in the blood can be caused by stress, exercise or a recent
meal....and various other diseases, rather than diet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>
>
***We actually do pretty low fat on the girls diets here. Sadie does
not do well with lots of fat (throws it up) and Sofie is kind of a
lazy bum (for a JRT) and does not burn it off. At first I was giving
Sofie more fat because she was thinner, but not only did she get fat,
she had dental surgery recently and her bloodwork came back with her
cholesterol a bit high.

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11a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

I wanted to thank people for the advice given, it makes me feel more
secure. I think I'm going to take my chances and switch both my
Shepherds over to raw feeding, starting out with chicken parts
(chicken backs) and then expanding as per Bill Carnes page
(http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm). I assume chicken backs are
used mostly for the price?

Hopefully Newton will not react badly to the chicken, but if he had
the runs for >2 weeks I might decide to switch to something else. I'll
keep people informed with how it goes.

A cool thing I realized is that a "famous" Somerville, MA butcher shop
next to me are really aware of the BARF diet and even have it on their
web site -> http://www.mayflowerpoultry.com/barf_diet.html

I went in to the store today and talked to them and prices seemed
reasonable (and the place is clean) even if they where out of chicken
backs. Do anyone have experience with this butcher shop? They seemed
really friendly!

So here is my plan, once I get a chest freezer...

For Newton my 3+ year old Shepherd, currently 99lbs and probably
ideally weighing around 90 -95 lbs, I will feed around 1.8+ lbs of
chicken-backs/day for the first week or so I will then expand into
other forms of protein.

For his "brother" Darwin, 15 months, 65 lbs and very active, I will
feed a little less then 1.8 lbs as I think his targeted final weight
"should" be 85-90 lbs as he's slighty smaller then his brother.

So basically both dogs get the same amount of protein and together
that's 3.6 lb each day (!). That's a lot of chicken, I'm sure they
will love it. My goal is to be able to feed them a "reasonable" amount
of food each meal and still keep them trim and healthy.

After a week or so I will introduce them to turkey, then fish, pork
etc. But the main-stay of the diet will be chicken (to keep the price
reasonable), as long as Newton can cope with it (and I think he will).

My plan is to continue feeding them 2xday, mostly out of routine, but
also since their stomaches tend to get too empty at day-care (throwing
up bile) if I don't feed them in the morning.

oh! And I will look into buying cheap floor mats for my kitchen.
"Unfortunately" I have an open floor plan so I will need to teach them
to eat their prey on the floor mats.

*** Am I missing anything? ***

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (5)
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