[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12416

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: frozen??
From: joan
1b. Re: frozen??
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
From: nancymccarel
2b. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
From: Yasuko herron

3a. Christmas feast continues
From: URSULA
3b. Re: Christmas feast continues
From: Laurie Swanson
3c. Re: Christmas feast continues
From: Yasuko herron
3d. Re: Christmas feast continues
From: ginny wilken
3e. Re: Christmas feast continues
From: carnesbill

4a. gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
From: woofwoofgrrl
4b. Re: gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
From: Laurie Swanson
4c. Re: gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
From: katkellm
4d. Re: gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: Gas
From: steph.sorensen

6a. Re: Fish question/amount to feed toy dogs
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. Re: Diet Critique
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Diet Critique
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Raw and tear stains
From: spricketysprock
8b. Re: Raw and tear stains
From: tobrlaka

9a. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: Giselle

10a. Female infections from raw bacteria - Question
From: Kevin Brown
10b. Re: Female infections from raw bacteria - Question
From: carnesbill

11a. Re: Little poo question
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

Messages
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1a. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "joan" joanlante@yahoo.ca joanlante
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:10 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Are you asking if pork is ok? Of course it is. Whether or not the
butcher
> scraps are ok depends on how much fat they contain, how experienced
your
> dogs are at eating raw, etc. What else are they eating and for how
long?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "joan" <joanlante@...>
>
>
Yes..I was asking if pork is ok as I get mixed signals ..but thanks
for answering.I think I'm ok now..how much fat they contain I really
don't know..you see this is sawed meat..this grocery store makes 10$
frozen bags of porc chops ...steak and everything so I gather its
sawings from that..so I don't thinnk it's all fat? I can tell one box
the meat is red so I'm assuming that one is beef..the other lighter
color so that must be porc....my dogs are new at this...tried in 2006
but got nervous for salmonela and stopped....my dogs now are eating
just this...no more kibble but will be on kibble in the summer unless
I can find a freezer for this meat..rigth now I just keep the boxes
of meat in the shed...

joan

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

>got nervous for salmonela and stopped

Hi.Dog does not get salmonella from meat. Their digestive system is much shorter than human and before it gets to dog enough to make them sick,the bacteria is out from body.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
Posted by: "nancymccarel" nancytmcc@aol.com nancymccarel
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>>
> My thought on it is that maybe you shouldn't have made her first meal
> boneless turkey and turkey heart. Bone is usually recommended to firm
> up loose stools, and even though from your post it seems that the bone
> triggered another bout, i would think it might have been the amount of
> food versus the inclusion of bone, and so i would again fast for a day
> and then go back to the basics and feed bone in chicken with the fat
> and the skin removed. I would feed more frequently using smaller
> amounts and see how it goes.

These are great suggestions, as was the other post thusfar. I didn't
even think that the boneless was not a great choice at first.
Excellent recommendation to also feed smaller amounts and go back to
basics. I will fast her and then try some small amounts of bone-in
chicken. Sounds like I should watch the fat content, too? And I will
definitely bring my own water, I haven't gone on my trip yet but that
is also a great suggestion. Any other recommendations would be welcomed!
Nancy

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

>Sounds like I should watch the fat content, too?

It depends. Sometimes do diarrhea when fed too much food at one sitting,too much fat in meal more than one can handle,or too much new food too soon.

So,if the food amount was not solvcing the prob you have,I think you can try skin removal and get rid of visible fat too.

If that did not help,make combo meal with something your dog do well on.

If you were just started out with chicken and if you do not have any meat that you can make combo with,then,you simply go back to basic and do start over again.

If you feed chicken or any poultry,buy a whole bird and cut to portion is way to go. Any parts dog gets has bone in it;some has more meat with ,some has little less meat with though.

AFTER the dog does well on organ free meal,then,you can add little of organ meat back into meal or any new item you like to feed next.Just try not to give 2 new thing at once or give too much of new thing.

If you were seeing just runny stool,then,give more bone in meal and it will solve your prob.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Did you try slippery elm powder Gisell recommends usually or probiotic(liquid) ??

Give those with meal really helps.

yassy

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2d. Re: Diarrhea in a raw fed dog--help!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

>I also have a dog that is sensitive to different kinds of water. A change in the water source ALWAYS causes a bowel change.

Hi. I am now in IN.We live in VA so,came here by car. I forgot about water change make palette runny poo a while and she is now experiencing little runny poo,not diarrhea though.

Different enviroment,also may effect her bowel too.

When we arrived to in-law house,she did nice poo but next day,poopless,and it did not worry me because even at home in VA, she has poopless day,but yesterday,she got runny poo and,needed butt wipe.

Today,she is not pooping yet but, when I read about water change,it made me think and remember,she has runny poo after coming here a while all the time..Maybe next year,I need to make pack list for pal too and add water botle to it,

Everything Io feed here is no different than I feed in VA,so,water or enviroment maybe the cause.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Christmas feast continues
Posted by: "URSULA" UCL@NEUF.FR ursula21c
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:16 am ((PST))

Firstly it was the dates and now the peanuts for the garden birds. The
bottom fell out of the giant bird feeder some time today and obviously
spilled the entire contents onto the lawn beneath the tree where my
two labs have again taken advantage of the situation and eaten the lot.
I have not seen anything untoward after the dates episode but am very
worried about several kilos of peanuts. What next I ask myself ? Are
nuts dangerous? They are (were) red skinned peanuts.
Ursula
Salies, France

ps: Merry Christmas to everyone

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Christmas feast continues
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

Oh, how fun! I haven't heard anything about peanuts being poisonous,
but you could call a poison control center or do some Google
searching. All I know is when I've given my dog a few peanuts or other
nuts, they have come out the other end completely undigested. You
might see some weird-looking poop!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:
Are
> nuts dangerous? They are (were) red skinned peanuts.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Christmas feast continues
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:23 am ((PST))

Peanut butter is made from peanut and it is popular item for dog right?So,I doubt it is dangerous food item.I do know that Macadamia nuts are toxic though.

Yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: Christmas feast continues
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:22 am ((PST))

On Dec 24, 2007, at 9:20 AM, Yasuko herron wrote:

> Peanut butter is made from peanut and it is popular item for dog
> right?So,I doubt it is dangerous food item.I do know that Macadamia
> nuts are toxic though.
>
> Yassy

Many humans, and therefore I would assume dogs as well, have
difficulty with the toxins in peanuts. Firstly, they can harbor the
aflatoxin fungus, to which the "real" peanut allergies occur, with
the anaphylactic shock and all. Secondly, they are legumes - ground
nuts - and not fruits, as are tree nuts, and contain the plant
lectins that make all legumes poisonous when raw. Since neither Tomo
or I will eat anything that requires cooking to be edible, this puts
them right off my list. Then, of course, there is the question of any
plant matter's being appropriate for dogs - and here again we need to
look at the lectin content, which is the stuff of which allergic
reactions are made.

So, maybe no more "dangerous" than grains, or Bush's Baked Beans -
but not something we would choose to eat.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (5)
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3e. Re: Christmas feast continues
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:05 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:

> Are nuts dangerous?

I doubt it. I use peanut butter to hide pills I give the dogs and I
sometimes use peanut butter for training treats.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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4a. gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:16 am ((PST))

I've made a second attempt at gorge feeding the dogs (I tried over the
summer and failed miserably!) and it's going much better this time.
I'm feeding them as many of their "daily ration" sized pieces as they
can eat in one sitting and then not feeding them again for 2 days.
On the 'off' day I give them an organ-cicle around dinner time.

They seem pretty happy about it, although I'm starting to think that
beef just doesn't agree with my BC.

So is 48 hours enough between feedings? I'm mostly letting them tell me
when they are hungry and 48 hours seems to be where they start getting
really pathetic.

I have some pork butts in the fridge that I'm *not* going to cut up and
we'll see if they can make the logical leap to gorging on BIG!

Thanks!
Christine

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:28 am ((PST))

I'm not a long-time gorge feeder, but have some experience with it and
I read and read this list! Your plan sounds pretty good to me. If you
want to feed them bigger and have them go longer between meals, I think
it's possible, but not sure how beneficial (it may be--some people feed
less often, like every 3-4 days). You would just keep working up to
that and see how it goes.

My dog does pretty good on every other day but we can sometimes have
issues (getting up in the night with liquid poops) if I give him a big,
completely boneless or especially fatty meal, or if I try to feed him
more than about 2 days' worth of food at once.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@...> wrote:>
> So is 48 hours enough between feedings? I'm mostly letting them
tell me
> when they are hungry and 48 hours seems to be where they start getting
> really pathetic.

Hi Christine,
The amount of time between feedings depends on the amount you feed.
If, for example, your dog normally eats one pound a day and you feed
two pounds, 48 hours is probably too long. If, on the other hand, the
dog gets 3 pounds at one meal, 48 hours sounds more reasonable.

> I have some pork butts in the fridge that I'm *not* going to cut up
and > we'll see if they can make the logical leap to gorging on BIG!

From what you said before, it sounds like you are now building up to
feeding a big gorge meal consisting of one huge hunk versus more
little hunks. You have been properly, imo, preparing your dog for the
FEAST. What i normally do when i feed a big hunk is to determine how
many days of food it is going to be before i feed it. Sid eats 2lbs a
day, so if the turkey is 12lbs, i pronounce that 6 days worth of food.
You can let them eat till they quit eating, pick it up, put in the
fridge and then offer again the next day. The first day they might
eat 5lbs, the second day 1lb, the next day,3lbs....you get my drift.
If the turkey is gone after day 4, i skip two days. I don't normally
pick my stuff up in the winter, and so they eat how much and whenever
they please. Its just that for Sid, that's all she wrote for 6 days.
One other thing i would like to tell you is that i always sit with
them the on the initial presentation of the big food. If you decide
to leave the food out, you need to decide if you are comfortable with
the idea of them eating unattended, or if you are going to watch them.
I am fine with leaving them alone with the food after they have
stuffed themselves initially, but you will need to do what makes you
comfortable or just pick it up and don't have to decide. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: gorge feeding - am I doing this right?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

>They seem pretty happy about it, although I'm starting to think that
beef just doesn't agree with my BC.

Hi.Maybe overfeeding ??If you feed too much too soon,the dog tends to runny poo or diarrhea.

I tend to go slow to feedgorge feeding for that reason.I still give big meal one per month though.

She started off with 5lb goat leg. I noticed if I give her 30 minutes to eat it,she eats about 1 lb or little over 1lb (she gets 10-13oz in average on normal meal.) Little more than she normally gets.

And with that amount, she does good on poo wise.

My plan is gradually let her eat more longer time and goal is to feed until she quits eating,but I go slow;the baby step.

When I feed big,I give uncut big stuff and let her decide how to tacle stuff and wait a little and take it away and freeze it and next time i feedd big,I fed the rest.I trade the big meal with chicken feet and no snapping.no growling to take the meal away.

Next couple of days,she gets little snack sized meal and back to normal meal after that.

yassy

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5a. Re: Gas
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:16 am ((PST))

Wow, I hope that happens to me soon! I've found that it is horrible
whenever they are on only chicken. The gas is atrocious!! Hopefully,
they will hit a point where they don't gas horribly anymore.

In the meantime, I've had to leave instructions for a sitter that is
watching them while I'm gone away for Christmas not to be alarmed if
she opens their door to let them out and it smells like something died
in there. :)

Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:

Fortunately, I've
> noticed lately that the gas is diminishing. In fact, I haven't
noticed
> a really rank one for over two weeks. I think we may be over the hump.
>
> Hannah
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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6a. Re: Fish question/amount to feed toy dogs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

Hi Tiziana,

I don't know about blue trout in particular but in general you can
feed any fish your dog will eat. It's just another protein source.
Some fish are more healthful/natural than others, though. I would
try a small amount first to see how it goes, digestively. A large
amount of a new food--especially fish, sometimes comes back out one
end or the other pretty quickly. You might try adding a bit to a
meal of other meat, or give a few bites as a treat, then try a small
meal of fish only, etc.

As far as your math, you do have some tiny numbers to work with! :-
) However, by my calculations, you probably want to feed your 2.2
pounder more than 1/2 oz. The ball park is usually between 2-3% of
ideal adult body weight, with small dogs eating on the higher end.
But that's just a starting point--see how your dogs do and adjust up
or down if they lose or gain more than you want. So, anyway, 2.2# x
3% = .066# x 16oz. = 1.06 oz. 2% of body weight comes to .7 oz.
Start somewhere in there and see how it goes!

Laurie

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7a. Re: Diet Critique
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:11 am ((PST))

"Tracy Touzjian" <imcalvinsmom@...> wrote:
I'd like to see
> him in the 135-140 lb range.
>
> Right now I am feeding RAW in the a.m. and kibble in the p.m.. As
> soon as I can convince hubby that this is cost effective and it
will
> also save on vet bills in the future, I will go totally RAW.
*****
You're not going to be able to demonstrate that raw is cheaper until
you do your homework and shop quite seriously for a month of raw
food. You don't have to buy, just go through the motions and take
notes. Price out appropriate food, make a list that includes how
much of what and at what cost. Also price out what a month of kibble
costs. (My guess is what you are paying right now will not be more
than what a fully-raw diet will cost you.) Give this comparison to
your husband. I'd be telling him to stuff it, but that's me.

As a guideline, your dog might eat something less than 3 pounds of
raw food a day. At a dollar a pound, that's three dollars a day, or
$90 a month, or less. The extent to which you can find meat, organs
and edible bones for less than a buck a pound will determine how much
less a month you pay for raw food.

Since you should be able to--with similar ease--upgrade what you feed
your family, your husband's complaints about the dog eating better
than you will have no substance. If this particular complaint is
replaced with another, you'll have to answer that one as well. If
this goes on indefinitely, I'd say he's got an agenda he's not
revealing.

> Morning:
> 1 lb chicken leg quarter (with some back), approx 3/4 lb turkey
> neck, and some chicken liver.
>
> Evening:
> 1/2 of the daily recommended amount of Canidae kibble with 1/4 cup
of
> yougurt, Grizzly salmon oil and Ester C.
*****
Dump the kibble. Dump the yogurt and the vitamin C. There's no way
to evaluate a diet that includes kibble, other than to say at least
you've got it half right. The yogurt and vitamin C are expenses you
can ill afford. When you are buying cheap, you have to by smart.

Focus on chicken, pork, beef heart (and turkey necks ONLY if you are
quite comfortable with your dog's eating style) for your meat and
edible bones; rely on liver (whatever's cheap) for the organ
allotment. This is a very narrowly defined menu but it will
certainly serve as a way to break free of kibble.

These all should cost less than a dollar a pound; the liver is likely
to be more expensive but you only need a half pound or so in a
months's time.

If you cannot stop feeding kibble, I recommend you feed only
additional meat in the second meal--no bones--except a turkey neck
once in a while for the oral benefits. OTOH, if you cannot stop
feeding kibble, there might be other lists better suited to answer
your dietary questions.
Chris O

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7b. Re: Diet Critique
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:15 am ((PST))

>> Evening: 1/2 of the daily recommended amount of Canidae kibble with 1/4 cup
of yougurt, Grizzly salmon oil and Ester C.

Hi. I think Kibble already has vitamin and possibly omega 3 fish oil in it so,if you were feeding kibble and add vitamin to it more,then,isn't it be more than dog need????

I too second to Chris.Feed Raw completely and drop kibble.That is best diet you can give to your dog.

yassy

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8a. Re: Raw and tear stains
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heather" <newbeginnings06@...> wrote:
>
> Tear stains are actually caused by a bacteria. Do you feed her out of
> anything plastic? It's a perfect breeding ground for the bacteria.
> Always use lead free ceramic or stainless steel bowls, and put them in
> the dishwaser so the hot water disinfects them well. Purified drinking
> water can also help.
>
> Heather
>

Where did you hear that? Don't some dogs always have tear stains
because of their breed? And isn't raw meat packed with bacteria that
has no affect on dogs? I feed my dog outside and skip the bowls, and
have fed him the same tap water his whole life...

Jess & Toby

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8b. Re: Raw and tear stains
Posted by: "tobrlaka" tobrlaka@nwi.net tobrlaka
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:05 am ((PST))

Tear stains are actually caused by a bacteria. Do you feed her out of
anything plastic? It's a perfect breeding ground for the bacteria.
Always use lead free ceramic or stainless steel bowls, and put them in
the dishwasher so the hot water disinfects them well. Purified
drinking water can also help. Heather
>>>>>>>>
Heather:
Normally, I just hand her her food, and she takes it to her rug.
Seldom any dishes involved at all, and her water is in a ceramic bowl.

By purified, do you mean the stuff I drink out of my Brita pitcher?
Someone else had mentioned "distilled," which do you think would be best?
Also, if the staining is due to a bacterial infection, does that mean
a trip to the vet, or do any of you have advice on clearing that up in
a more natural manner?

Thanks to any who respond/have responded!
Brenda and Ms. Sophie

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9a. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Joyeaux Noel, Feliz Navidad, et al - to
everyone, furry and human alike!

Yes, I know the path of that journey well!

For some of us, it includes detours into, and out of, home cooked and 'barf'
territory.

A few of us do get to Whole Prey and Big Meal country, and venture the way
of the Gorge, too.

But we all get to travel the road with our fellow raw feeders, and eaters
along the way.

Magical, mystical, spiritual? Maybe. I sometimes think so.

But its definitely natural, and is very satisfying to me and the girl!

Its lovely to hear good news about happy, healthy dogs from successful raw
feeders!

TC
Giselle
and Bea in New Jersey

> >
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "mathamgri" <mathamgri@> wrote:
> > I frequently feed big and I often allow them
> > > to eat as much as they want.
> > >
> > >> Happy Holidays to you, soul sister. KathyM
> >
> Ditto to all that!
>
> Hannah
>
>
>
>

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10a. Female infections from raw bacteria - Question
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Can anyone tell me what types of different infections females eating
raw may be prone to.

I was thinking the eating raw and licking themselves activities may
very well cause some type of a problem.

One of my girls had a little discharge, and we caught it early and
corrected it.

I am trying to see where it came from and take the necessary
precautions to protect her in the future.

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Thank you.

KEVIN BROWN

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10b. Re: Female infections from raw bacteria - Question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Brown" <jerseykev@...>
wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me what types of different infections
> females eating raw may be prone to.

None

> I was thinking the eating raw and licking themselves activities may
> very well cause some type of a problem.

Nope

> One of my girls had a little discharge, and we caught it early and
> corrected it.

It had nothing to do with diet. She would have gotten it anyway.
People as well as vets tend to blame everything on the raw diet. It
is almost never the cause of anything.

> I am trying to see where it came from and take the necessary
> precautions to protect her in the future.

No precautions necessary.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:36 am ((PST))

It's not prefab food, it's from Simon, (creston valley meats) just the ground up whole rabbits, and whole chickens.
He's only 10 weeks old, so maybe I will add some meat on the bone, and let him chew it up on his own, and some more meatier pieces? Cornish hens, and so on maybe?
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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