[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12414

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Raw and tear stains
From: tobrlaka
1b. Re: Raw and tear stains
From: rosey031801

2a. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: mozookpr

3a. Prey model for ten months
From: mathamgri
3b. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: Yasuko herron
3c. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: Amy Tracy
3d. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: mathamgri
3e. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: katkellm
3f. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: mathamgri

4a. Re: Charley's Off his feed
From: becca1066
4b. Re: Charley's Off his feed
From: Irene Clark

5a. Re: Whole chickens
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Gas
From: mathamgri

7. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
From: joan spencer

8a. Re: Christmas feast ..
From: homesforallpets

9a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: pamela993748

10a. Re: frozen??
From: Sandee Lee
10b. Re: frozen??
From: katkellm

11a. Re: Little poo question
From: costrowski75
11b. Re: Little poo question
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Hip Dysplasia
From: costrowski75

13a. dry nose
From: Karen Ditton
13b. Re: dry nose
From: nkayl

14a. Re: Need a logical response
From: jmwise80

15. fed cooked tonight
From: jmwise80

Messages
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1a. Raw and tear stains
Posted by: "tobrlaka" tobrlaka@nwi.net tobrlaka
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

Hi group.
I mentioned my pound puppy/spaniel mix, Sophie, and her venture into
raw yesterday. I am not sure what she ate before we adopted her, but
since she was kept in a dirt pen outside, and not very well
socialized,I can't imagine that her food was very high in quality.
I suspect she had table scraps or cheap kibble.

I am troubled that since we got her, and began feeding her raw, she
has developed tear stains. Otherwise, she has manifest the usual
changes with raw (better coat, better weight, more energy, etc), but
it bothers me to look at her pound pictures and see no tear staining
at all, and look at her now, looking all the part a sad clown.

Otherwise, she looks/acts very healthy. There is no foul odor or
other sign of eye irritation associated with the staining.

Someone I was talking with suggested there was a connection between
"too much bone marrow" and "leaking toxins out her eyes," which I've
not heard of before....and I thought I'd check with you all before I
discount it entirely.

Do any of you experienced dog people/raw feeders have any advice on a
possible connection between raw food and tear stains?
As I mentioned yesterday, she is still getting used to digesting
bones, so most of the bones she eats are chicken(which she handles
well now). She does get other sources of meat, but not so much of
bone, but we are working on that.

THANKS
brenda

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Raw and tear stains
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:18 pm ((PST))

I am a Groomer and I have lots of clients tell me that tap water makes
tear stains much worse. Try giving her only distilled water for a
while ( 6 months).
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "francesdrew" <francesdrew@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a 12 year old large dog (boxer, ridgeback mix) and she's
been on raw for about 8
> weeks now. She's looking healthy but her skin seems to be dry and
a bit itchy.
>
>
Frances,

Is this something you have noticed before in the winter? It could be
as simple as dry air. The average centrally heated home has a
relative humidity similar to that of the Sahara Desert. A sure sign
would be if YOU feel itchier in the winter, without using lots of
lotions and skin creams. I sure do, and hard water makes it even
worse.

I am a new raw feeder, too, and years of exposure to propoganda from
the pet food industry have left their mark. I can see the good
results from a raw diet, but I still find myself being extra vigilant
about every little twitch and tickle. Most times, I realize it is
not something new at all, but only something I notice more now
because of those old fears. Itchy skin could be a result of the new
food, I suppose, but there are other causes that are just as likely,
and probably more so. I have an itchy dog, too, who chews his
backside and gets terrible hot spots. I was told it was either flea-
bite dermititis (we had no fleas) or a food allergy (highly possible
given the kibble he was eating.) He seems to be improving on raw.
The problem has not been eliminated yet, but the chewing has
definitely decreased, and the rest of his coat looks fuller and more
luxuriant.

In the long run, raw feeding should help with dry skin. Forget the
cod liver oil, BTW, and use fish body oil instead. My dogs love
their salmon oil!

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Hi Group,

It's been awhile but I thought it might be fun to report the
progress on my dogs and cats, who have been raw for over two years
and prey-model for about nine months.

My boy dogs (three Standard Poodles, ages ten, two, and one) are
doing wonderfully well. They eat what I put in front of them. They
have startlingly white teeth, boundless energy and a calm
disposition. My oldest dog, who was dog aggressive, has stopped that
behavior. Perhaps a combination of some training, but I really
attribute it primarily to the change in diet. The other day when my
two young dogs were yelling through the fence at the neighbor's
dogs, he continued to sniff around a tree stump and showed no
inclination at all to become involved. A miracle! He also has had no
ear infections since going raw, and he had chronic ear infections
his whole life. Last month, I noticed first thing in the morning
that he was breathing funny and had a distended gut. I suspected
that he had eaten everybody's food the night before (about six
pounds of ground beef, which I usually don't feed), but I took him
to the vet, anyway. After doing an xray, it was easy to see a huge
stomach full of ground meat. But my vet also commented on the fact
that he was showing absolutely no signs of arthritis in the bone
that was visible on the xray. He also was pleasantly surprised to
find that his heart looked good, with no enlargement, although he
has had a heart murmer since puppyhood, which rated on a scale of
one-to-five rates a five. He commented positively on the condition
of his teeth, despite the fact that I haven't had them cleaned in
over five years. We did a blood work-up just for the heck of it, and
the results of that were well within normal range. All in all, not
bad for a ten-year-old.

My three cats (a long-haired tabby girl, aged nine, and two boy
Devon Rex, aged two and six-months), are eating well. My oldest
Devon does not like beef and pork, but will eat poultry, gizzards
and heart with great relish. I do have a problem, though. Kittens
introduced into the household in the last two years have all gotten
a cold. It runs it's course in a seemingly normal manner, but their
eyes do not completely clear up, and the watery discharge seems to
come and go and vary in intensity. This is the case with both
purebred cats and mixes. And two adult mixed-breed cats came down
with runny eyes, which lasted about ten days and then cleared up
completely. But in the kittens it seems to persist. Any suggestions?

Overall, I'm very pleased with the condition of my animals. They
have never been healthier, and my vet, who I used to see more
frequently than my husband, has become almost a stranger.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

> The other day when my two young dogs were yelling through the fence at the neighbor's
dogs, he continued to sniff around a tree stump and showed no inclination at all to become involved.

Same with palette.She never bark back or lunch to dog.Most-likely,other side of dogs do barking and jumping to fence and all those acts and palette is careless what other dogs are doing anfd just continue walking. I am not sure if it is food that makes change but,she is not luncher anymore.

> He also has had no ear infections since going raw

Maybe grain less diet maybe helping your dog.I too find out although she has no infection on ear but I find myself cleaning her ear very very less time than other time on kibble.I do not see any dirty ear for long long time and occasionary,I wipe but it is not a lot to wipe.

>. But my vet also commented on the fact that he was showing absolutely no signs of arthritis in the bone that was visible on the xray.

I think your dog getting natural glucosamin through whole foods maybe helping your dog.My dog used to limp and no vets knows why she was limping(first they thought that it was Cruciual ligament tore but after surgery time,they found no tore in ligament so,they just opened leg and without dsoing anything,they closed up.

After I gave glucosamin tablet remembering our local vet told us she has possible arthritis in x-ray pic and,I started giving it and limping has stopped but after switching to raw,I do not give any glucosamin tab at all but she is fine,run like a wind! Very good,

Overaoll,for palette,rawfeeding is way to go and giving her benefit to be fed so.

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

As a new-to-the-raw-scene-girl, I'm encouraged to hear the story of your
poodles, Hannah. Thanks for the great report! And good luck with the
kitties (-:
Merry Christmas all!
Amy (and Rosie)

On Dec 23, 2007 3:51 PM, mathamgri <mathamgri@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Group,
>
> It's been awhile but I thought it might be fun to report the
> progress on my dogs and cats, who have been raw for over two years
> and prey-model for about nine months.
>
> My boy dogs (three Standard Poodles, ages ten, two, and one) are
> doing wonderfully well. They eat what I put in front of them. They
> have startlingly white teeth, boundless energy and a calm
> disposition. My oldest dog, who was dog aggressive, has stopped that
> behavior. Perhaps a combination of some training, but I really
> attribute it primarily to the change in diet. The other day when my
> two young dogs were yelling through the fence at the neighbor's
> dogs, he continued to sniff around a tree stump and showed no
> inclination at all to become involved. A miracle! He also has had no
> ear infections since going raw, and he had chronic ear infections
> his whole life. Last month, I noticed first thing in the morning
> that he was breathing funny and had a distended gut. I suspected
> that he had eaten everybody's food the night before (about six
> pounds of ground beef, which I usually don't feed), but I took him
> to the vet, anyway. After doing an xray, it was easy to see a huge
> stomach full of ground meat. But my vet also commented on the fact
> that he was showing absolutely no signs of arthritis in the bone
> that was visible on the xray. He also was pleasantly surprised to
> find that his heart looked good, with no enlargement, although he
> has had a heart murmer since puppyhood, which rated on a scale of
> one-to-five rates a five. He commented positively on the condition
> of his teeth, despite the fact that I haven't had them cleaned in
> over five years. We did a blood work-up just for the heck of it, and
> the results of that were well within normal range. All in all, not
> bad for a ten-year-old.
>
> My three cats (a long-haired tabby girl, aged nine, and two boy
> Devon Rex, aged two and six-months), are eating well. My oldest
> Devon does not like beef and pork, but will eat poultry, gizzards
> and heart with great relish. I do have a problem, though. Kittens
> introduced into the household in the last two years have all gotten
> a cold. It runs it's course in a seemingly normal manner, but their
> eyes do not completely clear up, and the watery discharge seems to
> come and go and vary in intensity. This is the case with both
> purebred cats and mixes. And two adult mixed-breed cats came down
> with runny eyes, which lasted about ten days and then cleared up
> completely. But in the kittens it seems to persist. Any suggestions?
>
> Overall, I'm very pleased with the condition of my animals. They
> have never been healthier, and my vet, who I used to see more
> frequently than my husband, has become almost a stranger.
>
> Hannah
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Tracy"
<amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
>
> As a new-to-the-raw-scene-girl, I'm encouraged to hear the story
of your
> poodles, Hannah. Thanks for the great report! And good luck with
the
> kitties (-:
> Merry Christmas all!
> Amy (and Rosie)
>
> On Dec 23, 2007 3:51 PM, mathamgri <mathamgri@...> wrote:
>
> >
Hi Amy,

I'm glad my post was helpful. I'm so pleased with feeding raw. I'm
complimented often on how beautiful my boys are. They radiate with
energy and health. I feel good when I look at them and I know I am
doing the right thing. I frequently feed big and I often allow them
to eat as much as they want. They don't seem to get fat, and I don't
think poodles run to fat, anyway. They are so strong! I can feel it
when they tug with me. They remind me of a forty pound sled dog (fed
primarily frozen salmon) that I could barely hang onto in Alaska
years ago when a bitch in heat walked by. I don't think any of my
dogs in the past, same breed included, have ever been as strong as
these raw dogs are. I don't care for cutting meat, so when I feed
turkey I put one dog in my warehouse with the bird (I can observe
him through the window) and when he barks at the door or I think
enough time has passed, I let him in and send the next one out. I
put the leftover turkey in a bowl in my cooler and feed it until
it's gone. A large turkey will last the dogs and cats about three
days with a little left over. I feed other large cuts of meat this
way, too, especially if is it has a bone. My dogs do weigh
themselves often, not because I think they should, but because I
have a floor scale in my warehouse and they frequently sit on it
when waiting to come through the door. Their weight fluctuates very
little, only as you would expect, weighing more after a gorge meal.
When I first started feeding prey-model, I had the usual barfing
problems. My oldest dog would swallow things whole and barf them up
almost immediately, then someone else would come along and eat it.
(He never would.) But barfing is infrequent now, and usually
associated with eating foreign things on hikes, or occasionally the
cats will upcheck some chicken bone pieces. I'm comfortable with the
whole thing now, and I really enjoy watching my kids eat. They all
had to learn to hold the food down with their foot and tear with
their teeth. Sometimes they get quite a workout, and it looks so
much more natural than watching them stand over a bowl of kibble. I
was amused with my tiny kitten, who jumped on my kitchen counter,
chewed a hole in the plastic on a thawing turkey, and spent the
whole day guarding it and nibbling on the thigh. It was ten times
his size!

Enjoy the journey!

Hannah

Messages in this topic (6)
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3e. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:44 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:
I frequently feed big and I often allow them
> to eat as much as they want.
>
> Enjoy the journey!
>
Hi Hannah,
You just done and went and made my day. Never before have i ever seen
anyone, sorry if i missed it, but me call it a journey. I think raw
feeding has been an amazing and incredible path of health and growth
for not just my dogs, but me as well. Just when i thought raw feeding
couldn't be much better i turned down the path that lead to whole
turkeys and big meals and letting my dogs eat until they told me they
were full. I always thought that i was just over emotional-lots of
people would second that thought-but i guess if i am, you are, too.
Happy Holidays to you, soul sister. KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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3f. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@> wrote:
> I frequently feed big and I often allow them
> > to eat as much as they want.
> >
> >> Happy Holidays to you, soul sister. KathyM
>
Ditto to all that!

Hannah

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Charley's Off his feed
Posted by: "becca1066" becca1066@yahoo.com becca1066
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Well, the whole family's been under alot of stress... but the palce
on his tail goes back-I really thought is was from some kind of bite-
and the first place is healed, but hes started on a place higher up
his tail. I wouldn't think he ingested enough to matter-he's a big
(115 lb) dog, and its a small smot so not a lot of iodine/hydrogen
peroxide

He is neutered, cant think of any other changes right now, no temp.,
and hes currently an only dog-and no other dogs even close, although
he was haveing a fit about the neighbors cows Thursday

What else do you suggest for his tail? I'm out of colloidal silver
and no way to get any until after Christmas

I didn't think about stress as hes pretty laid back, but you could
be right. Now, if I can find the Rescue Remedy, I'll dose both of
us!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>> My guess is whatever stress started him chewing his tail is the
same
> stress that has him off his food. ........>
> OTOH, whatever has him off his food could also be stress that has
> started him chewing. What came first? Is he intact? Is there a
> bitch in season in the area?
>
> OTOH, both ingested peroxide and iodine can cause nausea, so
perhaps
> the treatment you are using on his tail (there are less invasive
ones
> for sure) is what's putting him off his food.
>
> In lieu of taking him to the vet, I'd recommend looking for the
> stressors in his life right now, using a different approach to his
> tail chewing, and keeping watch for symptoms that may indicate a
more
> specific health issue. Does he have a temp?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Charley's Off his feed
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

A quarter teaspoon peroxide made my 80lb Chocolate Lab throw up all day long
when give recently (ate a bar of chocolate bark for making candy...ugh
Labs!) so I wouldn't be surprised if stress and peroxide had your baby of
his stride.
Irene

On Dec 23, 2007 3:59 PM, becca1066 <becca1066@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Well, the whole family's been under alot of stress... but the palce
> on his tail goes back-I really thought is was from some kind of bite-
> and the first place is healed, but hes started on a place higher up
> his tail. I wouldn't think he ingested enough to matter-he's a big
> (115 lb) dog, and its a small smot so not a lot of iodine/hydrogen
> peroxide
>
> He is neutered, cant think of any other changes right now, no temp.,
> and hes currently an only dog-and no other dogs even close, although
> he was haveing a fit about the neighbors cows Thursday
>
> What else do you suggest for his tail? I'm out of colloidal silver
> and no way to get any until after Christmas
>
> I didn't think about stress as hes pretty laid back, but you could
> be right. Now, if I can find the Rescue Remedy, I'll dose both of
> us!
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
> wrote:
> >> My guess is whatever stress started him chewing his tail is the
> same
> > stress that has him off his food. ........>
> > OTOH, whatever has him off his food could also be stress that has
> > started him chewing. What came first? Is he intact? Is there a
> > bitch in season in the area?
> >
> > OTOH, both ingested peroxide and iodine can cause nausea, so
> perhaps
> > the treatment you are using on his tail (there are less invasive
> ones
> > for sure) is what's putting him off his food.
> >
> > In lieu of taking him to the vet, I'd recommend looking for the
> > stressors in his life right now, using a different approach to his
> > tail chewing, and keeping watch for symptoms that may indicate a
> more
> > specific health issue. Does he have a temp?
> > Chris O
> >
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Whole chickens
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

>I have been feeding home cooked with chicken for years.

Hi.Wow.... Isn't that very time-consuming?? After switching my dog to raw,I read many books or lists on rawfeeding or home-cooked and learnt what it is like,how it is done,and if they give something that I don't,I tried learning why they give why so benefit to dogs. But I felt that prey model sounded more natural feeding and more better than any feeding out there.

Barf is the first one I read about and it felt like so much bone in meal and little meat in it and,gives wiered stuff like sour cream or cottage cheese,ricotta cheese...and then,some gives green leaf veg and some don't.But cottage cheese has lots of salt so,I am not sure if they are giving way too much salt in food or not.

Home-cooked sounded based on grain or fiber material and then added meat to it with some supplement. Was that how you did? I read someone bought 80lb of sweet potatoes in fall to make huge batch of recipe (in other list) but I do not see myself peeling 80lb of sweet potato and cook them all and mash them so that dog can eat it..I have just one dog but it looks time consuming still.

Plus,I feel that home-cooked seemed to have quite lot of carb which dog doesn't need.
Rawfeeding has so much moisture in meal so,I read that it is good to prevent forming crysrtal or parasite or skin probs.It is not a magical feeding way,but sounded best.I also read that grain aggreviate arthritis and sometimes the cause of itchy prob and some veggies are the same.So,overall,diet based on lots of meat;prey model looked best to me and i think you made right choice.You would find shinier coat,sweet breath smell,pearly white teeth dog with calm dog attitude. My husband really likes our dog doesn't smell so bad after petting her,and it is such a pride of things when you go to vet when she/he tells you your dog looks so nice in teeth or coat or wahtever. I really feel good when they tell us like that and feel glad again I found the better feeding to our dog and know that best care possible we are giving to her.

*****I guess I need to cut the chickens up. Cut the chickens up into
pieces because I feed twice a day.

But make sure you don't cut the chicken to 1 inch chunk or something that encourage the dog to swallow.First some weeks,you observe your dogh how they eats and learn thew eating habit and use that to judge the meal size or waht to feed. Like some people seem to have prob to feed Turkey neck for example because shape and size and worry about choking hazard.But my dog chew ok,and she likes Turkey Neck a lot so,I feed Turkey Neck and I have no prob feeding them.

> So I got two and 4 lbs of frozen liver. I am thinking (already defrosted) of adding
slivers to the morning feed.

Ok,sounds good to me. You know organs are 10% intake of daily feeding amount you figured out.So, take that amount as goal and then, feed from maybe like pinky nail size of liver and increase to your dog intake amount gradually.

If you feed 4 legged animal's you can feed 5%liver,5% kidney etc and that makes total10% intake.

As for poultry,gizzard is considered to be musacle meat so,if you really want,you can feed in part of 80% meat intake amount.I feed as side dish though. And poultry heart is same too.It is muscle meat and you feed in part of 80% intake of daily feeding.Again,I feed as part of 80% intake. Only red meat's heart,I feed as main but for poultry,I feed as side dish.

>OK for Daisy, dobe, 4 years old, I got 1.8 lbs or 28.8 oz total daily
> food allowance. Lilly, 16 months old, dobe I got 1.95 or 31.2 oz
> total daily food allowance.

You know what? you can start both dog from 2lb daily intake,and feed 1lb each time you feed.THat would be easier for you. THen,if your dog started chunky head,then,you feed less would be good,

You said that you are afraid of diarrhea prob but,I think you need to try and see how well your dogs do and learn from there. Rawfeeding is always with learning experience in feeding with your dog observation. Don't be scared. If you had diarrhea,then,you can ask us what to do for your dog and everyone should help you out.

I had couple of times of miserable diarrhea day for my dog and I learnmt waht works for her through it. In my case,she seems to have prob in fat% and lamb tongue which has 70% fat is one thing she could not handle more than 1oz at first round.

If it were combined with other boneless meat,she does pretty good.

Just remember,one thing new at a time and move on to the other protin source after your dog did well on the protin you fed.And baby step is the key.Be patient.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Gas
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. When my dogs were raw but still
getting grains, they really didn't have any gas problems, but when I
switched them to prey-model, whew, it was intense. It seemed to be
primarily one dog, my two-year-old, but it was hard to pin it down. I
really hoped it would go away with time. It was difficult to explain
to my friends what that horrible smell was and at the same time,
expound upon the merits of the raw diet. I have never encountered a
fart so foul, and although I became somewhat used to the situation, my
friends wanted to leap from my moving vehicle. Fortunately, I've
noticed lately that the gas is diminishing. In fact, I haven't noticed
a really rank one for over two weeks. I think we may be over the hump.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (10)
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7. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
Posted by: "joan spencer" nachoburrito@yahoo.com nachoburrito
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:24 pm ((PST))

The toughest "switching to raw" case I ever dealt with was a three-year-old horribly brutalized Standard Poodle who was 40 pounds of skin and bones. He regarded everything as a weapon, food included. He had been in a Rescue for a year and was not progressing very well at all. He ate only a little k****e in the dark of night---just enough to keep himself alive.

I tried everything I could think of. What finally worked was having my butcher grind up whole chickens along with a little beef liver. I would make patties about the size of a quarter, saute them just a bit to bring out the aroma, AND coat each bite with a tiny smear of liquid smoke flavoring (after having tried garlic and other flavors which hadn't worked).

I put three bites on his towel and left the room for a half hour or so before removing the food. The aroma enticed him, but it still took three days for him to get up the courage to eat. Long story short: it took almost a year for him to eat like a normal raw fed dog and get his weight up to 65 pounds. The lesson I learned was that extreme patience, persistence and experimentation will eventually pay off.

Hang in there! Joan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8a. Re: Christmas feast ..
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:24 pm ((PST))

> Oh dear (grin) As a long time labrador owner I believe labs are the
> dustbins of the universe ! If its edible they will eat it !
>

Oh boy, someone with knowledge! My lil Angel is a Lab. She got into
the trash just before evening meal. I had cleaned out the fridge and
the cat boxes, the diaper genie and the indoor rabbit pans so I can
see the appeal for a dog.

Thank goodness her stools have been fine. I'm noticing that when I
have no raw to offer (bad planning mostly) and she gets only kibble
(trying to get away from it) her stools are loose and stinky. Is it
because of the switching? Just because the stuff is awful for her? I
dunno, but glad to know there is someone with breed experience!

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab

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9a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "pamela993748" pamduthie@btinternet.com pamela993748
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

Thankyou all for your responses - v fast and helpful

Kathy I am glad I am not the only one with this problem (knew I
couldnt be)and glad your dog is doing well now

I always though that Ben was doing well before but now I have to say
his coat is much softer and he is more playful in the house - more
like a puppy (and gross I know but the tiny poos are fab too)

Currently I am feeding Ben 2 meals a day and the extra food was in a
3rd meal
But from reading round a bit more I think I migh be feeding him a
bit late at night as well
When he was 'eating' the kibble the only time he really ate anything
was last thing at night after his last walk (I think he was waiting
to see if anyone offered him good treats on the walk) and he has a
really good run last thing at night so I didnt want to feed him
before his exercise
Now he is eating well on raw I just continued feeding him at the
same time and added a am meal (well I had been offereing him a am
meal when on kibble but more often than not he would not eat it)

So I guess I will start feeding him earlier so he does not have
anything in his tum to be sick with

again thankyou all v much, nice that there is so much help here cos
it scary when you 1st think about taking on the responsability for
all your pets neutrition (then once you start so much easier than
you think - except for a few hickups)

Pam (and Ben)

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10a. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:33 pm ((PST))

Are you asking if pork is ok? Of course it is. Whether or not the butcher
scraps are ok depends on how much fat they contain, how experienced your
dogs are at eating raw, etc. What else are they eating and for how long?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "joan" <joanlante@yahoo.ca>

Hi...I'm a little new at this and my friend picked up some boxes of
frozen butcher scraps...now one box seems to be a mix of bones...the
other sawed beef? and another sawed porc??? not sure...he saws his meet
not sorted frozen and then the scraps go outside ...I just took the axe
and broke some chunks put it in a bucket of hot water for a minute and
then dropped it on the snow...the dogs (saint-bernard...lab,newf mix)
loved it....is butcher scraps ok containing porc?

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10b. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joan" <joanlante@...> wrote:
>
> Hi...I'm a little new at this and my friend picked up some boxes of
> frozen butcher scraps...now one box seems to be a mix of bones...the
> other sawed beef? and another sawed porc???

Hi Joan,
I would be more concerned over the box of bones. Most of the bones
that i have seen at the meat locker are bare naked bones or darn close
to it. Unless the bones are substantially different than the ones i'm
use to seeing, i would be hesitant to feed them. Of course, they
might be covered in meat or leg bones covered with hide and skin and
sinew in which case you can feed them, regardless of the animal they
came from, and remove once the dogs strip them down to bare naked
bones. If they are already stripped bones, you should probably just
toss them. KathyM

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11a. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:09 pm ((PST))

John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
> I have had him for two weeks, he was on ground rabbit, whole ground
rabbits, for the first week, then we went to ground chicken, whole
ground chickens, only because I ran out of the rabbit. So he gets the
organs and the bones with everything.
*****
Therein lies the problem perhaps?
Ground commercial product invariably delivers too much bone. I think
if you intend to continue with prechewed food that you either add meat
to each meal or entirely replace half prefab meals with plain old
unadorned raw meat.

A diet doesn't need much edible bone to make a healthy puppy. Prefab
food needs much bone to make a profit. Immutable force meeeting an
immovable object, me thinks.
Chris O

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11b. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:19 pm ((PST))

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...> wrote:
I mean if they are too dry add come grease.
*****
I think, Sherrel, that grease would be less appropriate than simply
adding fattier--and raw--food. Even a clump of raw fat would be better
than grease.
Chris O

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12a. Re: Hip Dysplasia
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:17 pm ((PST))

ADMIN: Please take this topic to RawChat or DogHealth. There are a
variety of ways to approach HD but unless they are directly raw diet-
related they do not belong on this list. I'm sure upon consideration
you will agree.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

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13a. dry nose
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:30 pm ((PST))

I have a question about my older dog's nose. It has been dry on top for as
long as I can remember. I asked one vet about it a long time ago, and was
told "oh, some dogs are just like that" so I didn't worry about it. Then a
vet we saw recently asked about it and was surprised to hear that no other
vet had been concerned. The new vet said it's a vitamin A deficiency.

The new vet told me to feed my dog a cooked mixture of 2 cups brown rice, 2
pounds ground turkey, 1 pound chicken liver, 1 can of salmon and one can of
green beans. (It was taking about 3 days to go through that mix.) In
addition we were to give my dog some herbs and 10,000 IU of vitamin A each
day. Well… my dog liked the mix the first few days as it probably tasted
better than kibble, but pretty soon was no longer thrilled. (He was never a
good eater on kibble either.) So we were trying to get him to eat as much
as he would and he gained a couple of needed pounds. Also, we did notice
some improvement in the nose.

Because he was eating less and less food, I started looking for other
options. As you know we started feeding raw. The great news is that he has
been eating more (and we don't even have to beg him to eat!) than ever
before and definitely appears to be gaining weight. But, his nose appears
to be a bit dryer again.

Here's what he's been fed since starting the raw diet… first 6 days about ¾
of a whole chicken each day. On about the 3rd day I started giving him the
giblets bag as well. Then starting on day 7 we added pork shoulder to the
diet so now he gets about half chicken and half pork. I'm feeding him 3 lbs
a day which is close to 3% of his ideal weight. We've been on raw 12 days
now. He has continued to get the herbs and vitamin A the whole time.

So… my question is what have I taken away that was helping his nose?
Obviously I don't think the rice or green beans were doing him any good.
And he's getting a lot more meat than the 2 lbs of turkey spread over 3
days. But he's getting less liver and no salmon. I guess it must be one of
these. Liver has a lot of vitamin A, so if the diagnosis was correct that
could be it. (He was getting about 1/3 of a pound of liver daily before,
which is just over 10% of his diet, double the amount recommended here.) On
the other hand salmon has a lot of oil/fat that could have been helping to
"moisturize" his nose.

I am very pleased with the progress we've made since switching to raw! He's
eating well and gaining weight! I don't want to change too much too fast,
but do want to keep slowly moving toward an ideal diet for him. Right now
it's been 6 days since adding pork and his stools are great so I think we
could add something new.

What would you recommend as the next step for my dog???

Thanks again for all the wonderful help!!!

Karen

P.S. The puppy is doing great!!!

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13b. Re: dry nose
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:12 pm ((PST))

One of my Pugs had a dry nose her whole life. She just turned 5. I've
always just put some Vasaline or Aquafor on it. Not one of the vets
over the years has said anything about it being a vitamen deficiency.
From my Pug groups I gather a dry nose is fairly common and it seems
almost everyone just puts Vasaline on every other day or so. Problem
solved.

Since being fed raw my girls' nose has been much moister and I rarely
need to put gunk on it anymore. She's been raw fed for almost three
months now. Hopefully, your dogs nose well get better with time.
Sometimes it takes awhile to get all the nasty stuff out of their
systems.

Natalie and Bandit

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14a. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:49 pm ((PST))

I also wanted to commend you on keeping your wits. Just reading your
story made me feel the moment.(vivid imagination...can't help it)

If anything like that ever happens to dogs, family, friends, or
strangers I hope I can keep composure and take care of the situation
like you. Amazing!

Michael Wise

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15. fed cooked tonight
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:55 pm ((PST))

Not really. A little squirrel got somewhere on the power lines he
shouldn't have. Turbo has refused whole prey up until tonight. Not
sure if it was the singe or if he just felt like eating tonight. Don't
really care either. Sorry to waste ya'lls time, but I had to tell
somebody. I can't quit smilin'.

Michael Wise

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