[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12410

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
From: MORGAN LEWIS

2.1. need some advice
From: adkjoe17
2.2. Re: need some advice
From: costrowski75
2.3. Re: need some advice
From: katkellm

3a. starving into submission?
From: logbreath2000
3b. Re: starving into submission?
From: katkellm
3c. Re: starving into submission?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: So I decided to switch
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: homesforallpets
5b. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: homesforallpets
5c. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: bluegracepwd

6a. Re: small dogs/big parts?
From: katkellm

7.1. Newbie Questions
From: Darjeelingirl

8a. Nature designed diet?
From: Mary Tinder

9a. Re: hip dysplasia
From: maradethc

10a. Re: Offered Fish
From: Heather
10b. Re: Offered Fish
From: bluegracepwd

11.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
From: Jo
11.2. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
From: Giselle

12a. HUNGRY DOG
From: ohyeachampion
12b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Maggie Smith
12d. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: bluegracepwd
12e. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: ohyeachampion
12f. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: bluegracepwd

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: blood tests and weigh ins ...
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

I like Bill's answer. The reason most of us went to RAW to to give our 4 legged friends a better life, Quit worrying about the diet, give your pet a good variety - meat, bone and organ. Nothing fancy is necessary, "wolves don't go to Walmart or a local Deli". For the past 3 1/2 years I have been feeding RAW; chicken, pork, turkey and beef - all the hearts I can get my hands on (their favorite). During that period they have had 3 annual physicals, OFA X rays, thyroid and Cardiac test (also for OFA), they passed all with flying colors, and their teeth were clean (something that the elder dog had always had problems with). During this same period of time, we have not had to worry about Kibble Recalls (including the Brand that the oldest had been fed); no vacines, and happy energetic dogs.

So I ask each of you this Holiday Season - Worry less and enjoy more. Merry Christmas
Morgan and his Angels

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
>
> After just a few days on this list, I realize that you veterans
> of the
> raw scene answer the same questions over and over from us newbies.

You noticed that, did you? :) :) :)

> 1. I'm wondering when and how often I'll need to do a blood
> test on Rosie to make sure all is kosher with her systems.

I never do a blood test on mine unless there is a physical reason to
do so. If they look happy, healthy, and energetic with a good build
and shiney coat, I see no reason to fatten the vets pocketbook with
tests that will tell me all is ok anyway.

> 2. Since there is no height and weight chart for my little
> mutt, should
> I just "eye ball" whether or not she's packing on the pounds?

Pounds don't matter, looks do. If she is short haired, you should
be able to see her back rib or two without being able to see her
hips or spine. If she is long haired you should be able to tell the
same things by feeling.

> Or would you suggest weighing her regularly?

My dog's get weighed once a year when they go to the vet for
heartworm check. Weighing is just standard proceedure when a dog
goes in there. I don't even have the vet give them a checkup while
they are there for the heartworm test unless I have noticed
something unusual, which is rare.

> I want to learn how to be
> in tune as much as possible with her body.

It just takes a little time. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. need some advice
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

I have been feeding my 14 week old Siberian husky raw for almost
almost 3 weeks now. She has been eating mainly whole chickens and I
have given her a little lamb and sardines twice so far. I'm going
slow. her poop was starting to become normal until the past few days.
She has pudding poop for the last few days, last night she woke me to
take her out to poop 4 times. 11pm, 3am, 7am, and she pooped again at
930am. They were all VERY loose, pretty much just dripping out of her
butt. Before I make an expensive trip to my non-understanding vet, can
someone give me some advice? I have not changed the type of chicken I
have been giving her or anything. I'm not one to worry either, the
loose stool doesn't bother me because she always does it outside so It
doesn't really worry me. Can someone tell me some sure signs that the
dog could have worms or parasites? her ideal adult weight is about
45lb. I have been feeding her about a pound of food total a day give
or take a couple ounces. maybe i'm over feeding but it doesn't seem
like it. For her to have to poop that many times in the night just
seems wrong. I can't find any holistic vets anywhere in my area so I
hate taking her to the vet unless it is absolutely necessary, sorry
for the long post but I need some advice, thanks!!

Joe

Messages in this topic (59)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: need some advice
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>> She has pudding poop for the last few days, last night she woke me to
> take her out to poop 4 times. 11pm, 3am, 7am, and she pooped again at
> 930am. They were all VERY loose, pretty much just dripping out of her
> butt. Before I make an expensive trip to my non-understanding vet, can
> someone give me some advice?
*****
Regardless of how appropriate the amount seems to be, you might well be
feeding too much. And certainly the easiest change to make is to cut
back. So cut back. Skip a meal or a day. Then reduce amounts, limit
her to one meat she's previously been successful on, pull the skin,
pluck the fat, make sure she's getting adequate bone. And feed
smaller, multiple meals (reduced amount, increased meals to feed it in).

Also think back to stuff she might have gotten into--standing water,
other-species poop, garbage, fatty table scraps?

If she's acting okay just pooping badly, I'd wait simplify and wait it
out; but if she's out of sorts and certainly if she's showing
discomfort you should consider a vet. Don't worry about the holistic
issue, many holistic vets are neither keen on or up to speed on raw
diets. Go to a vet you trust. You can tell the truth or lie about how
she got herself into a lot of raw meat, your choice. If you think "raw
diet" will skew objectivity, by all means lie.

Good luck and let us know what happens.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (59)
________________________________________________________________________

2.3. Re: need some advice
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:21 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
She has been eating mainly whole chickens and I
> have given her a little lamb and sardines twice so far.

Hi Joe,
Another thing to consider is that you might have introduced the new
proteins in a not so digestive friendly way. If you rule out health
issues and get her firmed up again on chicken, you might want to try
just adding a small bit of one new protein to her chicken. Feed a
little more of the new meat while gradually decreasing the old meat.
Little bites of this and that could be the problem. Sardines are
probably not a good new protein choice for now. KathyM

Messages in this topic (59)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. starving into submission?
Posted by: "logbreath2000" elisabethlasser@sbcglobal.net logbreath2000
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

70 lb dog Charlie has been on raw for almost 3 month. I estimate about 1.7lb of food per
day - sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes he skips a meal.

I feed him twice a day: bone and meat in the morning, meat only in the evening. His poop
reflects what he has eaten: concrete- like when he had bone (he strains), soft/runny, when
he had a meat meal or liver added.
Only a few times is he normal in between.
The new thing is that he sometimes only poops once a day.
What can I do to get his poop to be of normal consistency? Is it because he doesn't eat
much verity?
He's only been getting lamb , beef and the bones and the livers thereof- because he eats
this with relish and no fuss. In the last 2 days I have started to add small amounts of pork,
which he ate to begin with.
Yesterday he ate a thick slice of beef shank, cleaned out the marrow, left the bone but left
the pork also.
My aim is for him to eat all meats; especially meat that is reasonably cheap and easy to
come by in Los Angeles.
The problem is that he doesn't like any poultry - feeding him chicken is stressful for me:
he leaves it, walks away - I take it up, give it to him for his next meal - he refuses it, and
so on.
By the time it's been in and out of the fridge for 2 days, the fridge starts to stink of ripe
chicken.
Q: Should I take the hard route and feed him nothing but chicken until he learns to love it?
( he does love it when I cook it)
Once or twice I have starved him into submission - I almost had a nervous breakdown. He
was fine.
When the chicken stinks to high heaven, I give in and cook it a bit - I'm fed up with
wasting food -he eats it - and has diarrhoea. Same with turkey.
This is a dog that is food possessive;
when I `borrow' another dog to come in at mealtimes he inhales his food -whatever it is -
with the speed of lightening- lest the other dog should get any ideas about having his
food. I used to have to borrow dogs when he was on Panacur (liquid) for a week 6 month
ago and didn't want to eat his food trenched in medicine. Worked like a charm.
But let's face it, this is far too much fuss: this dog eats better than I do, more
consideration is given to HIS well being than mine - that I am writing this long post speaks
volumes.....

Happy Xmas to you all
Elisabeth & LogBreath (Charlie)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: starving into submission?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "logbreath2000"
<elisabethlasser@...> wrote:
> 70 lb dog Charlie has been on raw for almost 3 month. I estimate
about 1.7lb of food per
> day - sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes he skips a meal.
> I feed him twice a day:

Hi Elisabeth,
I'm with you on wasting food. So with that in mind, the first thing i
think you need to do to get Charlie eating better is to drop down to
one meal a day. Bigger pieces seem to make eating more fun for my
dogs, not to mention challenging and a better dental cleaning. I also
think that one meal will help regulate his stools.

Charlie doesn't have to love chicken, but because of cost, i wouldn't
let him refuse it. I would feed a couple of days worth of "what
Charlie loves" meals and then offer chicken. Don't fuss or hover or
cajole him to eat. Present the food, wait 10 min and if he doesn't
eat it, return it to the fridge. No treats, no sadness, and nothing
to eat til the next day. Repeat until he eats. I think Charlie is
way smart and knows his mom loves him and will do what ever it takes
to make him happy. Time to do something to make Mom happy. If you
think the chicken is bad after a few days, it probably really isn't,
but if its bad to you its bad, put it in the freezer in between
presentations. It will still be good to feed and won't smell to you.
Its time that Charlie appreciated the hard work that the hunter,
that's you, put into getting food for him. Its time you gave yourself
a break and recognized what a good job you are doing with your dog. I
love the fact you love your dog so much. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: starving into submission?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "logbreath2000"
<elisabethlasser@...> wrote:
>
> The new thing is that he sometimes only poops once a day.

Don't worry that he only poops once a day. Thats a good thing and
not uncommon for raw fed dogs.

> What can I do to get his poop to be of normal consistency? Is
> it because he doesn't eat much verity?

I think that is probably a contributing factor. He is getting rich
meat and intermittent bones.

> My aim is for him to eat all meats; especially meat that
> is reasonably cheap and easy to come by in Los Angeles.

That would be chicken and turkey.

> By the time it's been in and out of the fridge for 2 days,
> the fridge starts to stink of ripe chicken.

Possibly you are leaving it out too long. Chicken should last 4 or
5 days in the fridge. Leave it out 10 minutes and take it back up.
It won't have time to cool down very much in that amount of time.

> Q: Should I take the hard route and feed him nothing but
> chicken until he learns to love it?

Thats what I would do. I wouldn't care if he loves it or not. I do
care that he eats it.

> Once or twice I have starved him into submission

No you haven't. You offered him food and he refused it. It was his
choice not to eat. Don't blame yourself for his decisions. Don't
get upset when he doesn't eat. That only encourages him to hold out
longer. He can feel you getting ready to cave. Don't feel sorry
for him. The food is there for him to eat if he wants to eat.

> But let's face it, this is far too much fuss: this dog eats
> better than I do, more consideration is given to HIS well
> being than mine - that I am writing this long post speaks
> volumes.....

Everything you said in the previous paragraph were decisions you
made yourself. Make different decisions. It's amazing sometimes
how people make the same decisions over and over and expect
different outcomes. You have to make a different decision to get a
different outcome. Decide that it's your responsibility to
determine the dog's diet and he has no input. You will decide what
he eats and when. You decide on feeding practices that make life
easy for you. He is a dog. He can adjust. One of you has to
adjust. It's better if its him.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:07 am ((PST))

"cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...> wrote:
>I grew up with a dietitian mom, and a very
> strong holistic background.
*****
Dietitians are well rewarded for creating nutrition where none or
little would naturally exist but feeding a species appropriate diet
doesn't need to be made nutritious, it IS nutritious. How best to feed
grain to a wolf? This would indeed need a dietitian, and yes, the
dogfood industry is very reliant on dietitians to make silk purses out
of sows' ears. How best to feed meat to a wolf? Use the guidelines
provided by Ma Nature.

Holistic practices may fall short when addressing the physiological
needs of animals other than human. Often (which isn't to say always)
even an astute holistic practitioner will attempt apply to other
species the "rules" that best serve humans. A holistic dog should be
regarded first as a dog, not a human; after which appropriate measures
can be taken.

Even though I eat rather well I still take
> vitamins and minerals, I don't understand why a dog wouldn't?
*****
It depends on what you eat rather well. If you stick to grassfed
meats, free ranging poultry, wild game, organically grown leafy greens
and include little grain (and only whole grains) in your diet and you
use raw dairy products, then you probably don't need supplemental
vitamins and minerals. If you feed yourself according to how the
goverment wants you to eat (the human equivalent of the AAFCO dogfood
standards), yes, it makes sense that--although you are eating "well"--
you would not necessarily be eating "right" for your species, and
supplements would not be superfluous.

I think the basics are simple: the closer an animal eats to its species
appropriate diet, the fewer dietiary supplements the animal needs.
Every species has its own appropriate diet. The further the diet is
from species appropriate, the more important supplements become.

Yes, if you intend to feed your dogs a significantly inappropriate diet
(hmm, like commercial dogfood) then yes, supplements either at the
manufacturing level or at the time of ingestion might well be
recommended.

For our dogs, it's easier to feed an appropriate diet than it is to
figure out how to support an inappropriate diet.

For me
> primal would be like a vitamin. Is this make any sense?
*****
It makes sense that you have been taught to think this way. It doesn't
make sense to ascribe to Primal virtue where none exists. All Primal
can do is hope to emulate that which Ma Nature provides free or charge
in species appropriate food.

Certainly it would be more cost effective, if one feeds a profoundly
limited menu, to supplement with a doggie multi-vitamin. It would
offer peace of mind and no more artifice than pre-fab food does, and
would save money to use in upgrading the menu. But the most honestly
holistic way of feeding a dog to take the lead from Ma Nature.

I think I will
> feel better once their bodies are adjusted and I can feed more than
> just plain chicken
*****
Absolutely. The sooner you can get a variety of high quality
ingredients into them, the more confident you can be that everything
is "in there." However, an introductory menu of chicken ala chicken is
only a blip on the screen. It will not throw your dogs into a
nutritional abyss. Feeding Primal during this slight hiatus may make
you feel better and isn't going to hurt anything but your pocketbook,
but it's not required.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

>
> If you do end up doing this, definitely look for good size
breeders. I'm sure you know this part as a rabbit breeder, but I'll
mention it in case anyone else is considering it - please consider
that rats are intelligent creatures and deserve a good quality of
life. This includes avoiding overbreeding your mommas.

I breed each of my brood does (rabbits) 3 to 4 times a year.
Commercial outfits aim for 8 to 10 times a year, so over breeding is
not an issue. The breeders for both species are to be treated with
the same love and respect as Angel (the dog) the kits (or pups) would
be raised with the same consideration and at processing age I would
choose future breeders and the rest go to the freezer. Thank you for
your concern!

Lastly, consider that rats often have very large litters - more than
you may care to feed. So look for other folks in your area that may
be interested (other canine or feline RAW feeders, reptile owners, or
even those that may be looking for pets).
>
The large litters are a good reason for my thoughts on rats. More in
less time if I keep only high birth rated mothers and high production
fathers. I would only breed to meet needs of my family. So with the
rats each female would see 3 to 5 litters, IF that, each year.

I also joined a group for suppliers so as to sell or trade to give
Angel variety for less fuss than having to pay the store rates. I
swear, where I am we are paying more than those up in the city. Its
strange because we are in the heart of farming area. I found a
processor near us, I'm going to call and ask if they might sell
anything they would normally throw away. If they won't they might
know a place to call.

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab
and two cats

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:46 am ((PST))

>
> No, they also need bones and organs. A better way to phrase it is
> they need whole animals or animal parts, nothing extra. No fruits,
> not veggies, not grains, no nothing else.

I'm sorry that is what I meant, all animal nothing else.

> They should get a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals
> and no other types of foods. Meat, bones, and organs only.

So no eggs or milk or anything like that?

> Look around. You should be able to find turkey and chicken pretty
> cheap just after Christmas. Other foods might be on sale also. I
> assume you don't get your kibble free. Spend that money on real
> food.

Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7. A bag of
chicken breasts costs $9. Turkeys whole are going for $1.25 to $2
per pound depending on brand but I'll look day after Christmas. Get
paid Monday, will look for stuff on sale. For dogs its ok if it
doesn't have much people shelf live left right??

> Yes, absolutely. Feed her rats and rabbits. She will also need
> some other animals some also.

Thanks. I am trying to find local folks to buy odds n ends off of.
It is hunting season and all. I also have a freind who fishes a
LOT. I bet if I bought him bait he'd catch her some. Fish is ok
isn't it? How about Carp? He can get Carp VERY easily. And blue gil
and sunfish.

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

Wow, you can just imagine the quality, or absence thereof, in a
product that costs so little.

A product like that could only be produced at that cost if it
contained a large amount of grain.

And when you feed grain, you'll increase the likelihood of a range of
illnesses, plus a shortened lifespan, plus a decreased quality of life
for your dog. You'd need to get teeth cleaned every year, plus the
costs of vet bills that result because of an inappropriate diet.

So the trick is to find suppliers that will give you a good quality of
food, without breaking the bank. The person who pays the most for
food doesn't win some sort of imaginery competition.

I'm very lucky where I get a range of food delivered to my house. I
pay nothing for delivery, and whole goats and sheep cost me $10-$15.

I used to feed a lot of chicken. I've now moved away from that, and
the primary food source for my dogs, cats, and ferrets now is sheep.

Check out some pictures here: http://www.bluegrace.com/rawpwd.html

Good luck with it, and let us know how you go and how we can help.

cheers

Jane

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote (snipped):

>
> Right now I pay $7 for a 40# bag of kibble lasts her the entire
> month. I doublt I could get that much meat with $7.

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: small dogs/big parts?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...>
wrote:
> Anyway....question...I read about people feeding RMB like pork
> shoulder, and roasts with bone in. My guys are 20# and so these pcs
> are too big.

Hi Marge,
There are several things you can do. You can, for math ease, buy 2
four pound bone in pork roasts. Decide that four pounds should be
about 16 meals and cut into appropriate size pieces, the last one
being the bone still covered in meat. You can freeze the meat and
then feed a solo boneless meal and then alternate with a chicken back
-yes the bone does count in the amount fed- what ever works for
successful stool control for your dogs. One of the meals will turn
out to be that nice pork bone covered in meat. OR, you could just
give each dog a four pound roast, eyeball when they have eaten the
correct amount and just put the roast back in the fridge for another
day. Again, eventually, you'll get to feed that nice meaty pork bone.

As far as really big, say heads, goes, another choice you can make a
ways down the raw feeding road, is to put that big piece of meat down,
make some coffee, and watch your dogs eat until they are full. Decide
how much they ate, how many days worth of food that should be, and
food nothing except maybe a snack meal for that many days. When i
offer a head, i determine how many days worth of food it is and leave
it sit outside-think Illinois winter- and that is all they eat for 5
days. If they finish it 2 days or 4, its up to them. KahyM

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7.1. Newbie Questions
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:11 am ((PST))

Hello,

My name is Patsy and I live in MN with a new beagle puppy (4mos, 13lbs), 2
cats, and 3 kids. I'm brand new to this but very committed - but a little
overwhelmed at the moment about how I'm going to find good, affordable raw
meat (that's not full of antibiotics and hormones, etc.) for the pets and
how to do it all... I've been researching the internet about all of this
for the last week or so. There's a lot of conflicting information out
there!

I guess my first practical question is: Where do you all buy your meat?
Can you actually find whole rabbits and such? The kids and I eat mostly
vegan so I am not too familiar with the meat world.

One note of encouragement was Heather's post where she said

Even at 3% of their body weight, your dogs only need 7 oz of meat a
day.. I think you are feeding way too much. My 20 lb beagle only eats
8 oz per day but in the winter when he's less active I'll cut out 4 oz
a few times a week to keep his weight down.

That's ALL? If it's really only that much a day, I can see where this would
be about the same if not cheaper than dog food. Where do I find guidelines
about how much to feed our dog, being a puppy and all? And since our puppy
is ALWAYS hungry and hunting for food, I need to ask what time of day do you
feed your dog? Does he get it all at once or divided up throughout the day?

In general, who are the most trusted experts in this field? What books
should I read?

Why do many rawfeeding places encourage owners to mix the food with
grains/veggies? Is that still part of the pet food industry's influence?

Are there any real, live rawfeeding support groups in MN?

Those are my questions. for now :-) Thanks for your help.

Patsy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Nature designed diet?
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

Very few people here give
> supplements unless its for a known physical problem. Everything is
> contained in the prey animal. Nature designed it that way. If it
> wasn't so, we wouldn't have carnivores.
>
> Bill Carnes

Bill, I'm feeding variety and generally the right percentages but I
wonder if I am really approximating fully the nature designed meals.
My dogs don't geerally get the benefit of the hide, head components,
and other parts that nature would have provided... non poultry is
skinned and poultry has no feathers. Just makes me wonder if I could
be missing something.

My barn cats take down little birds all the time. All that is left is
a few feathers and not enough it seems to cover the bird.

Mary T

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: hip dysplasia
Posted by: "maradethc" maradethc@yahoo.com maradethc
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:38 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:TRIM YOUR MAILS FROM NOW ON PLEASE. THIS WAS TRIMMED FOR YOU.

Hi Giselle!

Thanks for the information. A little more info on our diet -

Luckily, we have a contact at a large local food distributor. The
chicken we feed is mostly backs, but is sold as "parts". It is
mostly bad cuts of backs, but we find legs, wings, necks, etc. We
get it in 40lb lots, usually 4-5 boxes at a time.

In addition to vegetables, the veggie mix we feed contains ground
chicken, as well as organ meat. The organ meat consists of mostly
liver (beef and pork), along with kidneys, spleen, and heart (all
beef and pork). Most of this we find at local hispanic markets. We
also add raw eggs (protein) and yogurt. We don't feed whole
carcasses; the veggies are to simulate stomach contents found in a
whole carcass.

Sometimes we find whole (skinned) lamb or pig heads, we usually get
those when they are available - once or twice a month. They pork and
beef feet on about the same frequency.

We give meaty beef bones 3-4 times a week. They get all the meat
off, get the marrow, but don't consume the bones. Their teeth look
amazing!

We have given green tripe, green tripe/organ mix, as well as trachea
and gullet. This is only once every few months, though.

Our vet has started Daisy out with an anti-inflammatory. He wants to
see how she does on that for a week or so. He said we also have
options of pain killers (only if needed), adding glucosamine
supplements, therapy, or even surgery if we want to go down that
road. His immediate recommendation though is to not make multiple
changes at once - see how she does on the anti-inflammatory before
trying anything else rather than taking a shot-gun approach and not
knowing which change was beneficial. He also recommended that she
drop a little weight - she's not heavy for her size, but he said
dropping about 10% body weight could make a huge difference.

We do have a treadmill, but haven't had any luck getting her on! She
does get a 1-2 mile walk daily.

Thanks again - we'll let you know what happens.

Mike and Maradeth (Daisy, Jasmine, Scrappy, and Rocko!)

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

> In a message dated 12/21/2007 2:18:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> redkeds@... writes:
>
> the reason you can not find fresh or uncooked sardines is that they
do
> not exist. i believe it is small mackeral or similar fish that are
> caught and then processed/cooked, to become sardines.

Mackeral and sardines, herring and anchovies are all different. The
latter 3 are related, but they are not the same as mackeral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_jack_mackerel

Heather

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Offered Fish
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:00 am ((PST))

Hey Maggie,

nope they definitely exist. Sardines are considered a delicacy and a
specialty dish in many parts of the world. In Fremantle, Western
Australia they are cooked up as a special dish. In Portugal,
particularly the Algarve, sardines are a specialty.

Where I live in Melbourne, Australia, I buy them for about $5 a kilo -
fresh and raw, and they are particularly a great food for puppies at 5
weeks of age.

I can also get mackeral - a completely different fish again.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
Posted by: "Jo" mistielass@yahoo.co.uk mistielass
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

Hi

Thanks for all your replies. I think I got a little over ambitious this
evening. My dogs have been having tinned sardines in oil as part of
their regular diet but I saw some fresh ones at the fish market today
and thought it would be a loverly change for them. I didn't do anything
with them, just gave them whole with guts, head,eyes ect. I was either
wrong or I gave my aussie to many. My westies had 1 each and my aussie
had 3 which came to about 200g. she ate them very carfully, not
bolting, I don't think she quite knew what to do with them. But about 5
mins after she threw the lot back up. What went wrong?

Kind regards
Jo
sorry for the odd questions I am too new at this, I'm frightening
myself LOL.

Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________

11.2. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:15 am ((PST))

Hi, Jo!
NP, just too much new food at once!

When you feed sardines again to the Aussie, just toss one (or a half) in
with a well tolerated protein, that will get her acclimated, and ease the
introduction.

BTW, did you give her the chance to re eat it?

Just remember, less is more, gradual is better than all at once.

TC
Giselle

<snip>
>

> I think I got a little over ambitious this
> evening. My dogs have been having tinned sardines in oil as part of
> their regular diet but I saw some fresh ones at the fish market today
> and thought it would be a loverly change for them. I didn't do anything
> with them, just gave them whole with guts, head,eyes ect. I was either
> wrong or I gave my aussie to many. My westies had 1 each and my aussie
> had 3 which came to about 200g. she ate them very carefully, not
> bolting, I don't think she quite knew what to do with them. But about 5
> mins after she threw the lot back up. What went wrong?
>
> Kind regards
> Jo
> sorry for the odd questions I am too new at this, I'm frightening
> myself LOL.
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "ohyeachampion" ohyeachampion@yahoo.com ohyeachampion
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++++

Hi all.
I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got her
(2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?
Thanks for the help and Happy Holidays!

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:59 am ((PST))

What exactly are you feeding...and is the amount 3% of her ideal adult
weight?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@yahoo.com>
I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got her
(2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

sorry - eating cat poo and trash are behavioral issues, not hunger
related.

stick with the 3% - adjust up or down as needed. how does she look?

Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@...>
wrote:
>
> ++++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++++
>
> Hi all.
> I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got her
> (2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
> encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
> found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
> divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
> of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
> dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
> amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?
> Thanks for the help and Happy Holidays!
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12d. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

Ah... sorry Maggie, eating cat poo and trash are actually related to
diet.

In my trash there are numerous goodies that the dogs and cats want.
Take left over roast chicken. They think that's fantastic.

Cats are often fed commercial food, and their stools are often very
attractive to dogs.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12e. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "ohyeachampion" ohyeachampion@yahoo.com ohyeachampion
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:17 am ((PST))

Sandee & Dane Gang,
I feed her beef back ribs, eggs, tilapia, pork shoulder, turkey butts,
a range of offal, and an occasional cornish game hens. My boyfriend
thinks that I feed a bit more bone then meat but I've recently changed
to feeding her the whole chicken as opposed to chicken parts. For
awhile, she was getting fed ribs and offal alternately, because I
could get a good price on it.

As for her ideal weight, I was feeding her 3% of what she weighs. But
as a puppy I couldn't see feeding her as a 70lb dog. Is that where I
went wrong?

Sheryll and Sherman

- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> What exactly are you feeding...and is the amount 3% of her ideal
adult weight?

Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "ohyeachampion" <ohyeachampion@...>
I have a 8 month pit. She started raw feeding a week after we got
her (2 months). She loves it. But as she's grown bigger, I've
encountered a problem. I've been feeding her 3% of her weight, but
found she still acts hungry. We can't go for a walk w/o me having to
divert her from eating the trash on the street. She's extremely fond
of cat poo and w/ research we found that the behavior signals a hungry
dog. She's a very muscular and active puppy. Should I increase the
amount? Or is 2-3% what we should stick by?

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12f. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:22 am ((PST))

hi Sheryll,

one reason I don't give people percentages for what to feed is
because they so often get it wrong. And to be frank, I've never
seen a wolf with a calculator trying to work out how much to eat on
any given day.

If you are going to go by percentages, it's 3% of expected adult
weight, not 3% of puppy weight. There is a vast difference in
quantity. No wonder she's always hungry.

I give my puppies what ever they will eat. I have never had a pup
over eat on the raw diet. Yesterday, for example, my dogs got a
foal to eat. (The foal hadn't made it through the birthing process
sucessfully.) Anything left over from their meal gets given to the
older dogs. I have absolutely no idea how much each pup is eating,
and have no intention of finding out. I keep an eye on their
condition, and the only one who gets more attention is the small
runt who gets to eat without the competitive siblings. But yet
again, I have never measured his food.

I start to moderate the diet more when they are around 12 months of
age only.

It is amazing how much pups will eat as they are growing and I often
find pups able to consume as much or more than an adult dog will eat.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------