[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12420

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
From: anjaleck
1b. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
From: anjaleck

2a. Re: How long do I wait....
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: How long do I wait....
From: Maggie Smith
2c. Re: How long do I wait....
From: Sandee Lee
2d. Re: How long do I wait....
From: katkellm
2e. Re: How long do I wait....
From: T Smith

3a. Newbie to raw
From: Gaye Amick

4a. New to this - what do you think?
From: Darjeelingirl
4b. Re: New to this - what do you think?
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Need a logical response
From: Caitlin

6a. Re: my dog hates venison!
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: my dog hates venison!
From: Heather

7a. Re: dehydrated raw
From: Caitlin

8. Re-introduce proteins after hiatus??
From: Heidi

9a. Re: Raw and vacations
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Advice on diahrrea?
From: Carrin
10b. Re: Advice on diahrrea?
From: carnesbill
10c. Re: Advice on diahrrea?
From: ed_khang

11a. Re: Female infections from raw bacteria - Question
From: Kathy

12. Staffordshire bull
From: Yenna

Messages
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1a. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
Posted by: "anjaleck" anjaleck@gmail.com anjaleck
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "salvinop73" <psalvino@...> wrote:

> Kathy
> If you have a super wal-mart close buy you can get 10 lb
> bag of chicken quarters for .47 per lb. And beef
> kidney for 1.14, chicken gizzards for 1.24,canned
> jack macrel .92 per can.I also shop other
> supermarket sales for beef hart and ground beef.
> With 2 mastiffs at 200lbs it could get expenseve
> at 3 lbs per dog per day.If you need any additional info
> let me know.
> Pete
>

Hi, Pete,

Thanks for this information. We are very new to raw and were
wondering where to purchase in bulk. We have two mastiffs and 5
rescues so we are going to be needing a lot of supplies. We figured
out we're going to have to buy another freezer! *grin*

Thanks again,
Anj

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "anjaleck" <anjaleck@...> wrote:
>
> We are very new to raw and were
> wondering where to purchase in bulk.

I have always had good luck buying in bulk from small independent
grocery stores that sell meat. Go by in person and speak to either
the owner or meat manager. Explain to them that they can just add
your order to their order and they don't have to unpack or do
anything to your order. They just let you know when it will arrive
and you will pick it up. All they have to do is unload it from the
truck and put it in their cooler. Tell them that you will be buying
a couple of hundred pounds a month from them. (It doesn't matter if
you don't buy quite that much but this will peak their interest.)

I have developed a relationship with a store near me and I call on
the phone and place my order on a Monday morning and pick it up on
Thursday afternoon. He marks up very little because he has no
expense in handling it. I order chicken backs, turkey necks, turkey
wings, beef heart, and chicken drumsticks(for the cats). I can
still get chicken quarters from Walmart cheaper than he can get them
for me.

Chain grocers aren't able to do this for you because they have no
proceedure set up to handle them and they can't order anything that
they don't stock in their own warehouses.

Yes, you will need a freezer just for the dogs. When I pick up an
order, I let them thaw and pack them in zip locks in the size for a
meal. I use a lot of quart and gallon size ziplocks. Yes I reuse
them until they start to leak too bad.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
Posted by: "anjaleck" anjaleck@gmail.com anjaleck
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:32 pm ((PST))

I use a lot of quart and gallon size ziplocks. Yes I reuse
> them until they start to leak too bad.

LOL... I do too!

Thanks for the info, Bill.
Hugs,
Anj

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: How long do I wait....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:46 pm ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> BUt I thought fish was a "have to" in raw?
> Am I mistaken?
*****
Yes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: How long do I wait....
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:50 pm ((PST))

Nope - not a have to, but nice if they like it.

Rufus and Mickey love their fish, esp. salmon - Oliver won't touch it.

If their coats are lacking or they have itchiness going on, you can
give fish oil supps, otherwise, you can easily skip it and on to
other things they will eat.

Maggie, Rufus, Oliver and Mickey

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> BUt I thought fish was a "have to" in raw?
> Am I mistaken?
>
> On Dec 25, 2007 12:24 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> > Some dogs just don't like fish. I've never been one to force my
dogs to
> > eat something they didn't like. Mine aren't picky, they eat about
> > everything but when there is something they truly don't like, it
gets
> > taken
> > off the menu (rabbit in our case)!!
> >
> > Sandee & the Dane Gang
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: How long do I wait....
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

I don't know why you would think that. It's just another source of
protein...nothing magical about it and not necessary.

My guys will eat the "stinkier" fish...salmon, mackerel, albacore, etc., but
none of that bland white stuff! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> BUt I thought fish was a "have to" in raw?
> Am I mistaken?

Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: How long do I wait....
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:31 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
> I mentioned about the fish & kidney, it is now their second meal they
> refused to eat it.
> Shall I chop it up & mix it with something at donner or "just wait them

Hi Trina,
Are you trying to feed them together? Its not that there is a
nutritional or health reason not to, its just fish is one of those
iffy things with lots of dogs and kidney might be thought of kind of
the same. I guess my point is if i was going to wait it out, i'd do
it with one thing and not both. My dogs are not picky eaters, so when
none of them were very willing to eat fish, i just removed it from the
menu. Kidney, 2 of my 3 liked, and so the third one learned to eat
it, too. KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
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2e. Re: How long do I wait....
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:54 pm ((PST))

Thank You.
I will pawn the fish off to the other dogs & see if I don't have to throw it
away!
Trina

On Dec 25, 2007 1:23 PM, katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Trina,
> Are you trying to feed them together? Its not that there is a
> nutritional or health reason not to, its just fish is one of those
> iffy things with lots of dogs and kidney might be thought of kind of
> the same. I guess my point is if i was going to wait it out, i'd do
> it with one thing and not both. My dogs are not picky eaters, so when
> none of them were very willing to eat fish, i just removed it from the
> menu. Kidney, 2 of my 3 liked, and so the third one learned to eat
> it, too. KathyM
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Newbie to raw
Posted by: "Gaye Amick" northernskychar@netzero.com northernskyacademy
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:01 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone

My ten month old Malinois has been a prescription Vension and Potatoe
Kibble from the vet. for the past six months. Since she has IBD I'm
wondering instead of starting her out on chicken if I should start her
out on vension or buffalo to make the transition easier/better.

Thanks for the imput.
Gaye

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. New to this - what do you think?
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:26 pm ((PST))

I have just started raw feeding my beagle puppy, Sherlock, 4 months, and 2
cats, Cuthbert 10yrs and Snickers 5yrs. The puppy has no problem with it
and thinks life is grand. The other day I bought a bunch of chicken legs,
pork feet, pork shoulders, turkey giblets, beef liver, and beef cuts of some
kind, and some beef bones with meat on them at the local corner grocery.
Some of the items were marked "beef bone - for dogs" etc. Whatever I could
find at this store that was reasonably priced. I hope to buy more, less
expensive, and better meat with a buying group in January. I'm new to this
meat thing, being a vegan myself. However, when I got home I made Ziplocs
of a little chicken, beef, pork, and turkey in each bag - up to about 1 lb
per bag as my puppy is 14lbs at the time. Then I put them in the freezer
such that I can pull out one bag per day for the dog. I think I have about
2 weeks worth of meals. How does that sound for a start? I know I need to
vary the types of meat and include bone. Is there anything GREATLY amiss
here? The puppy's poo looks like it's coming out just fine, and he doesn't
seem to have any problems going out to go.

On the other hand, after 10 and 5 years respectively on kibble, the cats
think I'm off my rocker - or messing with them. They nibbled slightly at
the beef liver and a little *cooked* chicken on day 1 (I haven't cooked
anything since), but won't touch anything else. They're still meowing for
the kibble (Newman's Own Organic). I've always had to put water in the
kibble for them, otherwise they barf it up 10 minutes later (I know that's
because it expands in their stomachs) so I'm thinking I may have to go to
ground meat for them for a while? Cuthbert has terrible teeth due to the
kibble and I'm looking forward to getting him chewing some raw meat and
bones soon. I think he'll be easier since he's overweight from eating
Snickers' food whenever he can - so he's a big eater. Snickers is not a big
eater to begin with, though. However, they haven't eaten any of it yet even
though I've left it out for them and have not offered any kibble. Do you
think they will get hungry enough and give in or should I do something
differently?

As I'm just starting this - on day 4 to be exact - I just thought I'd share
and ask for any input.

Thanks and Happy Holidays,

Patsy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: New to this - what do you think?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:12 pm ((PST))

Hi Patsy,

First and most importantly...FEED YOUR CATS!!! Sorry to shout, but this is
so important. You cannot starve cats into submission...especially an
overweight cat. They can develop liver failure and you could end up with a
dead cat. :( So go feed them...doesn't matter if it's kibble, whatever they
will eat, feed them!

Then come back and we'll talk about your puppy...what a cute name!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Darjeelingirl" <darjeelingirl@comcast.net>

> However, they haven't eaten any of it yet even
> though I've left it out for them and have not offered any kibble. Do you
> think they will get hungry enough and give in or should I do something
> differently?

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "Caitlin" caitlin@baileyridgedogs.com fancyfacepoms
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:18 pm ((PST))

I had a similar incident with my 6 pound Pom and a piece of chicken
gizzards a few years back. I was slicing and dicing them because she's a
gulper, and sure enough, clumsy me dropped a whole chunk on the floor
and little vacuum dog was right there to inhale it. My hands (even as
freakishly small as they are...lol) are much too big to shove down a
Pomeranian's throat and to this day I'm really not sure how I got the
piece out, but I did, and I stayed remarkably calm.

Good job on staying relatively calm and getting the piece out - I know
how scary that is!!

My parents really didn't want me feeding raw after that incident as
well, but we just had to make sure that if she got something boneless,
we basically have to chop it really little, or give her a piece that's
bigger than her head and keep a close eye on her (a, so she doesn't eat
it all, because she would GLADLY eat an entire chicken in one sitting,
and b, so we can pry it away from her when it gets to be too small
because we don't trust her)

And I'm really not exaggerating about the eating an entire chicken
thing... she really is a bottomless pit. Back in the day when we were
feeding those doom nuggets, she hopped over the barricade we had around
the big dog's food, sat IN the bowl, and proceeded to eat ALL 6 cups in
the bowl, and when she tried to jump out of the bowl, she knocked the
barricade over with her big fat belly and made a whole lot of racket and
then laid at the bottom of the stairs belly up (no, not dead... that's
how she sleeps!) with all feet in the air for the next day or two.

I was more surprised at the fact she was able to make the jump than the
fact she was able to eat all the food. I should've named her Hoover. :)

Your husband (and you!) will get back to your original comfort level
over time. Just work with your old guy's needs, and you'll be okay. My
parents have even taken to dishing out some of the meals and watching in
amazement at my 4 and 6 pound dogs crunching chicken wings, rather than
freaking out that they're going to choke.

Caitlin
BaileyRidge Poms

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: my dog hates venison!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:18 pm ((PST))

My dog needed little "getting used to flavor" sort of time on Elk(venison).

I ribborned the meat from rib(still attached to bone part),and gradually,she started eating without mt help. She can eat bone all too.

As for heart,boneless Elk meat,she had no prob,just the rib part meat.Not sure why.

And,I made sure it be served at room temp.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: my dog hates venison!
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:24 pm ((PST))

Venison is a very gamey, smelly meat, and maybe your dog just doesn't
like it. My beagle will not touch rabbit, frog legs or fish when
thawed because if the gooey, slimy texture. He will eat half frozen
fish but still not rabbit or frog. I don't push him to eat anything he
shows me he doesn't like (which isn't much).

Heather

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: dehydrated raw
Posted by: "Caitlin" caitlin@baileyridgedogs.com fancyfacepoms
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:19 pm ((PST))

I'll admit - I have tried the Honest Kitchen with my Poms, and my aunt's
Labs (whom I was living with at the time.) We were a family of very
hectic schedules for a few months and yes, we took the "easy way out".
Although it was just about as convenient as that ick-in-a-bag, it was
nearly 3 times more expensive than the Timberwolf organics kibble I had
switched from. That was red flag #1.

Red flag #2 - there was nothing chewable! My poms just licked their
bowls clean and their teeth got icky, even with giving bones.

Red flag #3, and the reason we got all of the dogs off of it - the
yellow Lab was sent into a SEVERE allergic reaction to the stuff. She
was scratching off fur, chewing her feet, scratching her ears, and her
muzzle was covered in bloody pustules which only cleared up after
completely removing the Honest Kitchen, eradicating ANY poultry, and a
round of Chinese Herbs and a prescribed glandular from the holistic vet.
The other three dogs were relatively okay on it, but we didn't want to
take the chance of Lacey getting into it and being back to the itchies.

The only upside was when we went camping (before the allergic
reaction... when we first tried this) it was really handy. And if I'm at
a 3 or 4 day long dog show out of state, I may pick up a couple of the
sample bags and haul it with me... but never ever would I make it a main
staple of their regular diet and that's just based on my experience with
it when feeding it to Lacey.

I much prefer knowing EXACTLY what is going in their bodies. No
ingredient list, no nutrition facts panel... just muscle, organ and bone.

Caitlin
BaileyRidge Poms

Messages in this topic (6)
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8. Re-introduce proteins after hiatus??
Posted by: "Heidi" troopob@yahoo.com troopob
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:20 pm ((PST))

Is it necessary to re-introduce a protein if it hasn't been fed for
several weeks (6 weeks)? I was lucky enough to get a couple coolers
full of venison and lamb over Thanksgiving from my mom. After I fed
through that, I went back to chicken and pork. Holy white watery
squirts, Buttman!! The two corgis had little issues- a little loose
is all for a day, but Deke the Berner had cannon butt galore - and he
spins in a circle when he does it. Luckily, only one incident was in
the house - on the chair, wall, table, desk, down the heater vent - OH
BOY!! Got to test out my new Bissell SpotBot's fullest capabilities -
not bad -better than the full sized Bissel steam cleaner.

So back to small amounts of chicken breast. I think it is the fat in
the pork??? that causes this??

Thanks for any input,
Heidi and Deke
sick of the stinky butt

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9a. Re: Raw and vacations
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:21 pm ((PST))

>I just got back from a 10 day family vacation with my papillon andportioned out ziplocks, dry ice and a cooler worked very well. just had to remember to thaw the food :)

Hi,I found this thread and I wanted to add my post to this since I found good experience about travel with raw meat.

I live in VA and for holiday,we traveled 12 hours to Indiana which is where I am now in.

We thawed only first day meal and others are solid frozen.

Before we leave for IN,I bagged meal in each freezer bag with date on it so that i know which bag to pull out one day before feeding.

Then,I used cooler and placed couple o f Gelpak which I got from suppliers box during course of getting food items to stock up and then,placed bagged frozen meal on top,then Gelpak on it some and closed and,did not use ice at all.

I was not sure how well it would be lookkig after long drive but the food was still frozen solid as well as Gelpak.And,I am satisfied with result.

The freezer bag is having bits of organ in some bags too so,all I do is,borrow in law's fridge to thaw and dump the food in matt we brought from home to feed and, it is very easy.

yassy

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10a. Advice on diahrrea?
Posted by: "Carrin" mntgrl_2000@yahoo.com mntgrl_2000
Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:21 pm ((PST))

We are new to raw feeding. Our dog has been on raw for about 8 days
now. Things, stool wise, seemed to be going well at first. Yesterday,
I noticed his stool was SUPER runny....almost watery.

He has been getting chicken backs and beef cheeks. Is this a normal
stage, or should I try just sticking to one protein source for a
while? If so, which one would be best (we have a huge bulk of backs
and cheeks)? I know that backs don't have a lot of meat to them, but I
also know that the bones will help thicken the stools a bit....right?

Thanks,
Carrin

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Advice on diahrrea?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:12 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carrin" <mntgrl_2000@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed his stool was SUPER runny....almost watery.
>
> He has been getting chicken backs and beef cheeks.

I would feed just backs until the stools firm up. Then after a week
of firm stools, start to slowly add other protein sources. I
wouldn't add beef for several weeks. I prefer chicken first, then
turkey, then pork, THEN beef, then fish, then whatever else. It's
not necessary to go exactly in that order but it's the order I
prefer based on my perception of ease of digestion.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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10c. Re: Advice on diahrrea?
Posted by: "ed_khang" ed_khang@yahoo.com ed_khang
Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:57 am ((PST))

Battling diarrhea was a nightmare for me.

I found that starting with a single lean protein with bone helped. I
wouldn't go too heavy with bone, as you might get the opposite problem
and seesaw back and forth.

Best bet is chicken breast with rib bones. Most grocers have "frier
breasts" Or "Half Breasts" with the rib meat. Peel off all the skin
and remove all the fat. Feed with bones. Then as the stools firm up,
slowly remove a little less fat and skin with each meal until you can
feed it with all the skin and fat on. Also feed smaller portions at
first. Really big meals can lead to loose stools too.

I would then move to leg quarters with the same technique of removing
all fat and skin then slowly adding them in.

So when diarrhea hits, remember. Feed small and lean. Slowly
increase from there.

Hope that helps,
-Ed

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carrin" <mntgrl_2000@...> wrote:
>
> We are new to raw feeding. Our dog has been on raw for about 8 days
> now. Things, stool wise, seemed to be going well at first. Yesterday,
> I noticed his stool was SUPER runny....almost watery.
>
> He has been getting chicken backs and beef cheeks. Is this a normal
> stage, or should I try just sticking to one protein source for a
> while? If so, which one would be best (we have a huge bulk of backs
> and cheeks)? I know that backs don't have a lot of meat to them, but I
> also know that the bones will help thicken the stools a bit....right?
>
> Thanks,
> Carrin
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Female infections from raw bacteria - Question
Posted by: "Kathy" xanadu8@insightbb.com aresblue2000
Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:12 am ((PST))

Hi,
Is your dog a puppy? Vaginitis is common in young females especially before the first heat cycle. My vet said sitting on the ground could cause it. Some females are more prone than others. I don't believe raw diet was the cause.
Kathy L.

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12. Staffordshire bull
Posted by: "Yenna" fifofifo51@yahoo.com fifofifo51
Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:12 am ((PST))

Hi, all the best for the year 2008.
We just got a staffie from the refuge, he's a 1 year old neutered male.
I made some research on the net and found the "raw diet" forum, I fell
in love with the idea, it makes so much sense.
He's a 30Lbs dog, how much should I feed him? 1Lb, 2Lb, once a day,
twice a day? any feedback welcome.

Cheers
Yenna

Messages in this topic (1)
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