[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12441

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: mathamgri
1b. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: Heather
1c. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: Giselle
1d. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
From: T Smith

2a. Amounts for a puppy
From: mathamgri
2b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Laura Atkinson
2c. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Laura Atkinson

3a. Aggression with bone
From: A.
3b. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Chia
3c. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Aggression with bone
From: Heather
3e. What is a recreational bone?
From: Betty

4a. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: mathamgri
4b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: steph.sorensen

5.1. Re: Loose, broken, cracked dog teeth
From: Giselle
5.2. Dog graph of teeth
From: Betty

6.1. bones
From: Janet
6.2. Re: bones
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Pork Neck bones
From: Lisa
7b. Re: Pork Neck bones
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Do I have a good balance?
From: kevinedc_la
8b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
From: Lisa Blair

10.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
From: Betty

11a. Re: Seared liver lovers
From: Laura Atkinson

Messages
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1a. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
Hi Frances,

I frequent Cash n Carry. They have large chunks of meat, and I can
usually find something for a dollar a pound or less. Safeway's two
blocks from me, in a pinch, I can usually find something for $1.50 or
less, and always some cheap chicken. WalMart for organ meats, even
though I'm politically opposed to shopping there, although less so
now. Although I have lots of freezer space in my business, I find
myself too disorganized to thaw these big chunks in a timely manner,
I still have frozen grass fed beef that I bought for the dogs a
couple years ago. Which, by the way, was more costly than buying at
the grocery store, although probably better. If you are a meat eater,
you could buy a beef or whole carcass of something, keep the best
cuts for yourself and feed the rest to the kids. That could justify a
higher price. And though others have mentioned it here, it's worth
letting your friends know that you will take old meat off their
hands. I scored some lamb the other day. And I think I have some
venison coming.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> I don't buy whole chickens. I buy chicken backs in bulk .25/lb. I
> buy chicken quarters at Walmart .47/lb. I don't buy whole
turkeys.
> I buy turkey necks or wings in bulk for around .50 to .60/lb(price
> fluctuates). I don't buy ground beef, instead I buy beef heart in
> bulk around .50 - .70/lb(price fluctuates). I do buy pork butt
and
> other pork roasts. I feed venison that I can beg off my friends
for
> free (last years and year before deer). I also take any old meat
I
> can talk friends out of. I use freecycle. I don't under any
> conditions buy any pre-made dog food. I can feed 2 Great Danes
and
> 2 cats for about $60 - $70/mo.

> (And they say men can't shop!) :) :) :)
>
> Bill Carnes

WOW I'm impressed! I used to be able to take advantage of cheap
sales on whole chickens but now my kitty's decided she hates the
taste of the preservatives they use and will only eat fresh
chickens. I figure they're healthier anyway so my dog eats them too
(20 lb beagle). I always get deer scraps during hunting season. This
year's deal was 6-8 whole rib cages for $10. It should last me until
next season. I haven't located a cheap source of beef heart.. I pay
$3 each. Cannot find kidneys yet. I bought a package of chicken
hearts and gizzards for 98c/lb at Walmart though and duck for
$1.39/lb. AND I may be able to buy a whole goat and sheep that will
hopefully turn out to be less than $1/lb (haven't checked into it
yet) Buying large quantities cuts costs alot. I used to buy turkey
necks for 50c/lb but now they upped it to 89c. Ridiculous. I just
buy whole turkey from Walmart for 79c/lb. It works out better
because my 5.5 lb cat can't eat turkey necks anyway.. or most of the
other things available cheap. Ah well. Walmart also sells canned
sardines in water- no salt- for 50c.

Heather

Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:20 pm ((PST))

Hi, Frances!
The Lis List is a great compilation of ways to creatively
obtain meat for cheap or free;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
TC
Giselle with Bea in New Jersey

I just bought 60 pounds of meat to feed my 3 large dogs for 14 days. I
> feed them mostly
> chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in some
> ground beef, pork
> butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for some
> variety. Sometimes I
> wish my dogs were all small and I could afford to feed them in
> style...more red meats,
> more diversity.
>
> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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1d. Re: Wish I had smaller dogs!!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

I buy several hundreds of pounds at a time, just brought home a 5th
freezer...
I'm feeding 9 dogs so I am not really sure if I am keeping costs down.
I know the other humans in our home eat meat so they'll eat the chicken,
pork etc too :-) So I can't say the dogs ate it all ;-)
Now I am waiting for the turkeys to go on sale, even though I have 300
pounds of frozen meat on my deck that I cannot fit in my freezers!!
I like feeding the beef hearts, getting them at .49/lb (I think) Someone
else gets them for me but the cost is great & they like the hearts.
I have cut way back on the little dogs food (not that they even put a dent
in it but each pound helps) & the Dane kids are on a steady amount each
day. We use a 10 lb bag of chicken thighs each day.
I think in the end, I am hoping I will see a big enough difference in their
health to justify the cost of the meats.
My whole family loves feeding the raw! It's easy!
With having disabled dogs, I think we will always have those extra vet bills
but perhaps less... I believe the raw has helped keep Whisper's seizures
minimal, my chronic skin problem dog hasn't seen the vet for meds in a few
months for skin or ears (miracle in itself!)......He has an eye appointment
in Jan.... he seems to be acting like he has better vision & that just isn't
possible.....his eyes don't require the 7 drops PLUS extras a day like
required & he has been getting for 2 years because he had no eye moisture...
now he seems to have, for the first time ever, moist eyes....maybe just
chance...but I think that it will correlate with the cost of the food in the
end, If I can skip a $300.00 opthamologist appt & reduce eye meds by a
couple hundred dollars a month by feeding raw.... THAT is saving money! So
for me, I try to see the whole picture vs what i am paying for the food
itself. Is that right?
Trina

On Dec 31, 2007 12:04 PM, francesdrew <francesdrew@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I just bought 60 pounds of meat to feed my 3 largs dogs for 14 days. I
> feed them mostly
> chicken and turkey that I buy whole and cut up myself. I toss in some
> ground beef, pork
> butt, fish, or Nature's Variety Rabbit or Vension medallions for some
> variety. Sometimes I
> wish my dogs were all small and I could afford to feed them in
> style...more red meats,
> more diversity.
>
> What do you do to keep the cost down as much as possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Frances
>
> _
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I
be giving her more until she seems satiated ?
>
>
>
> Michelle
>
> I raised my Standard Poodle pup on raw from six weeks on. At first,
three meals a day, as much as he could eat in ten or fifteen minutes.
When he seemed less interested in the mid-day meal, I eliminated it. At
about six months we started doing more really big meals, and only
sometimes did he get a second meal. I just let him decide how much he
needed and how frequently. He is the least gluttonous of my three dogs,
which I at least partially attribute to this feeding style. Anyway,
Standard Poodles don't run to fat, so I don't worry about giving them
too much. They are pretty sensible dogs.

Hannah
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

I start puppies with 3% of their anticipated adult weight and adjust as
needed from there. It's divided into multiple meals (as few as I can get
away way) so that each meal isn't big enough to cause loose stools. I keep
my puppies a smidge on the plump side, so I'm not always playing catch up
with growth spurts.

Start them with whatever. Chicken is easy, that's for sure. But it's got a
lot of bone too, so I don't do chicken w/ bone every meal.

The fun thing with puppies is that if they can get their mouth on it, it's
potentially edible, so if you've got a puppy that adjusts quickly to new
foods, you can have fun finding new things for them to eat. When I do that,
the meal on either side of the new item is generally something they've
already had and done well with.

On Dec 31, 2007 6:26 AM, Carlye <reidhaven@catahouligans.com> wrote:

> Just checking to be sure: do you feed a puppy 10% of it's current body
> weight until that exceeds 2-3% of his expected weight? Is it best to
> start them with chicken? Are there any other tricks that I should
> know?
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

Dear heavens...feed her! Assuming her estimated adult weight is going to be
60 lbs (I don't know the poodle standard) that'd be around a pound a day,
split into multiple meals. You're lucky she's not gnawing your limbs off
while you sleep.

On Dec 31, 2007 12:21 PM, Michelle G. Heimendinger <michelle@hdinger.com>
wrote:

> Hi all. Ok, my standard poodle pup is about 7 lbs and 11 weeks. She is
> getting approx. 3 ½ tablespoons of ground meats 3 times a day but still
> looking for food. I will give her some chunks tonight or if I find a turkey
> neck. Can't remember - do puppies just always look for food or should I
> be giving her more until she seems satiated ?
>
> Michelle
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Aggression with bone
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

We have a 1 year old Mastiff who is the sweetest thing ever. She never
shows any aggression to anyone. We feed a raw diet and I can take her
food or pet her while eating and she doesn't care. She also does not
care when she has nylabones or toys.

The problem comes when we give her the big recreational bones from the
butchers. When she has that if you walk near her she growls. I can
even say her name and she will growl. Our other dog got to close to
her and she snapped at him. This is VERY out of character for her.

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

~Amanda

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:27 pm ((PST))

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

#### google 'canine resource guarding' and look for assistance that
encourages 'positive' actions, not ridiculous alpha rolls and the like.

Watch recreational bones due to the risk of tooth damage or cracks. ANY
soup bones or femurs of large ungulates should be avoided, it just isn't
worth the pain, risk, and HUGE expense you may concur.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:45 pm ((PST))

Stop giving recreational bones! :) Seriously, they are responsible for
tooth breaking and wearing...regardless of her behavior, I wouldn't risk it.

Now to deal with the issue of resource guarding, we have discussed this
quite a bit on Rawchat if you'd like to join and look for the past messages.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "A." <ols@charter.net>

The problem comes when we give her the big recreational bones from the
butchers. When she has that if you walk near her she growls. I can
even say her name and she will growl. Our other dog got to close to
her and she snapped at him. This is VERY out of character for her.

Do you guys have any advice on why she only does this with these bones
and what I can do about it (besides stop giving her the recreational
type bones).

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

My dog had severe food aggression that I tamed by getting as close as
I could to him right at the point he would begin growling, and then
I'd throw a treat to him and walk away. You are not rewarding the
growling, you're sending a message to the dog that your presence is a
positive thing. As you get closer you can begin handing her stew size
chunks of meat, to which she'll have to drop the bone to eat. Start
working on a drop command when she shows interest in you approaching.
When you feel it's safe, try to pick up the bone first before giving
her the trade item. Mine will abandon any bone for a piece of meat I
have in my hand. Maybe that's all it will take is her seeing you with
something better. My dog had no trouble with me messing with his
kibble but as explained to me by a behaviorist, raw meats are a much
higher prized food item and some dogs it will trigger a guarding
behavior.

Heather

Messages in this topic (5)
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3e. What is a recreational bone?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Is it a real bone or manufactured bone?
Prism

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
>
> An animal who is
> not under siege is one who is unattractive to parasites.
>
>
> ginny and Tomo
>
> This is so true. I noticed years ago that debilitated horses were
especially prone to lice. Healthy horses in the same barn never
succumbed.

Hannah
>
> All stunts performed without a net!
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

I also live in Georgia, but this past summer, I was still feeding
kibble to my girls, and they had fleas, DISPITE being on preventative
at the time too. I have found that the flea and tick stuff does
nothing for them.

So I look forward to next summer to see how they do.

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cris_milam" <cmilam@> wrote:
> >
> > We live in Georgia where every tick and flea and his brother must
> > live.
>
> I live in Georgia also. This year I found one tick on one of two
dogs
> and about 50 on me(I don't eat raw :) ).
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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5.1. Re: Loose, broken, cracked dog teeth
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

There ya go.....
http://www.wirefoxterrierassociation.co.uk/conformation/Skull.jpg

TC
Giselle

<snip>
>

> My dog has no broken or
> cracked teeth, just the slightly loose tooth on left back, and the
> more loose back tooth on right side. I don't know about any missing
> teeth. Is there a graph to look at to number the dog's teeth? Thanks!
>
> Prism
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (52)
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5.2. Dog graph of teeth
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Wow..great easy graph..thanks so much for the link!
Prism

There ya go.....
> http://www.wirefoxterrierassociation.co.uk/conformation/Skull.jpg
TC
Giselle

Messages in this topic (52)
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6.1. bones
Posted by: "Janet" janetcalandro@comcast.net pjcala6
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:47 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note; pls sign all emails ++++++++++++

can someone explain what a weight bearing bone is? My dog loves to
chew on bones I get at the butcher with marrow in it? He will chew it
for days until I throw it out. Is this really bad for his teeth?
thanks for your help

Messages in this topic (52)
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6.2. Re: bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:51 pm ((PST))

Weight bearing bones are the long leg bones which hold up a large
animal...cow, moose, elk, etc. Those butcher shop bones are known for
breaking/wearing down teeth.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Janet" <janetcalandro@comcast.net>

can someone explain what a weight bearing bone is? My dog loves to
chew on bones I get at the butcher with marrow in it? He will chew it
for days until I throw it out. Is this really bad for his teeth?

Messages in this topic (52)
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7a. Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Lisa" lmartin828@verizon.net simplylisa0906
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up yesterday,
and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone for them
to chew on. They are quite meaty.

Also are they safe?

<http://www.weeworld.com/home/lmartin828/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Pork Neck bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:14 pm ((PST))

If they are labeled bones they most likely are not a meal. If there is
enough meat you cannot decipher the bone, they are great.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Lisa" <lmartin828@verizon.net>

> Is anyone familiar with buying pork neck bones? I picked some up
yesterday,
> and don't know if these would be considered a meal, or just a bone for
them
> to chew on. They are quite meaty.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "kevinedc_la" cahill_kevin@hotmail.com kevinedc_la
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

Hi,
I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing well, I
am concerned about balance. I purchased a grinder that can grind
chicken bones. I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics. I was going to add some
Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?
Also, is it ok to feed raw veal knuckle bones?
Thanks for your advice.
Kevin

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Do I have a good balance?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST))

Kevin, you do not need a grinder. "Balance" in a carnivore's diet means
tons of meat, a little edible bone and organs. No veggies, no probiotics,
no Bravo's...and definitely no knuckle bones. Think meat...look at their
normal prey...80% meat in nice large chunks, 10% edible bone and 10% organs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "kevinedc_la" <cahill_kevin@hotmail.com>

I am new to Raw (6 weeks)and while my dog loves it and is doing well, I
am concerned about balance. I purchased a grinder that can grind
chicken bones. I have used it to grind chicken wings, thighs and
legs. I then feed this mix with fresh ground ( my food processor or
Bravo Veggies)veggies and add probiotics. I was going to add some
Salmon oil after reading several posts on the lack of Omega 3's with
chicken I plan on changing to pre-prepared Bravo Lamb and beef on
occasion for a week here and there. Am I on the right track?

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Photos link of my dog's teeth
Posted by: "Lisa Blair" lkblair@yahoo.com lkblair
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

I wish I had thought to do this with my 11yo sheltie. His teeth were horrendous, and his breath was like a toxic waste dump. The vet had been after me to take him in for a cleaning, but I was very hesitant to have him put under. Well, I made the switch to raw about 3wks ago, and the change is remarkable. His teeth now look about like your pics here, but the improvement from his before is almost unbelievable. Before the switch, all of his little front teeth were loose; now I can't wiggle any of them. :)

Looking forward to seeing your 'after' pics in a couple weeks!

Lisa

----- Original Message ----
From: Betty <prismkitten@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 1:34:40 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Photos link of my dog's teeth

http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 22272690@ N02/

____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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10.1. Re: What kind of dogs do you have Bill?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

My dog has been a raw feeder for over 5 years now. It's the raw rib
bones that a new addition to help clean his teeth. What are GSD dogs?
German Shepard Dogs?

Prism

If I remember right, you are just beginning raw so I would hold off
> a couple of weeks on the fish. They are not notorious for causing
> firm solid stools. I would wait until he has had a few weeks of
> good solid stools before I introduced fish. I am very cautious
> about soft stools, probably more so than some of the others here.
> Bill Carnes

Messages in this topic (52)
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11a. Re: Seared liver lovers
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

You're way nicer than I am. When Katie goes through an "I don't LIKE liver"
stage, I give it to her first. When the liver is eaten, she gets dinner. If
it doesn't get eaten, she doesn't. She goes through this phase less and
less often as time goes by...I think I'm winning! :-)

On Dec 31, 2007 9:14 AM, Susan Fortune <desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net>
wrote:

> Emu liver was refused by all four of my dogs.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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