Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 9, 2007

Sunday, September 9, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12021

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hurt Puppy
From: Anna Labriola

2a. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: katkellm
2b. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: Mona
2c. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: lar07911

3a. Re: A Little Freaked Out
From: Roxane Graham
3b. Re: A Little Freaked Out
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3c. Re: A Little Freaked Out
From: Mary

4a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: mrskheath

5a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
From: Giselle

6. Different coloured liver and kidneys (for eating, not the dogs orga
From: Judith Kellett

7a. Large dog with diarrhea for a few days....
From: Ivette Casiano

8a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: lizwehrli
8b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: rokedemyah

9a. dogs chewing RMBs
From: luvmyberner_bernerlove
9b. Re: dogs chewing RMBs
From: Andrea
9c. Re: dogs chewing RMBs
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. Re: Aggression!!!
From: Mona
10b. Aggression!!!
From: Ivette Casiano
10c. Re: Aggression!!!
From: Mona
10d. Re: Aggression!!!
From: heather pavelin

11a. Stinky Kitchen
From: michelleraia1
11b. Re: Stinky Kitchen
From: Laurie Swanson
11c. Re: Stinky Kitchen
From: Kaitlin Fraser

12a. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
From: Giselle

13a. Re: Salmon oil questions
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Hurt Puppy
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

> Glad your boy wasn't more badly hurt.
> Young dog's bones growth plates can be damaged from injury to them;

Thanks, Giselle. I remember seeing him hit the ground and
thinking, "Oh, s!#!, he broke his leg!" I never, EVER want to hear
my dog make a noise like that again!! It was an awful experience. I
guess I should say I'm a human physical therapist and the vet was
nice enough to allow me to review the xrays with him. All his growth
plates looked good(thank goodness, you know I was asking!) which
leaves me to be worried about his ligaments and the shadow over his
hock. :o) We really, really, were lucky yesterday.

Okay, so nothing special regarding diet with an orthopedic injury.

> 3) Stress can cause loose stools, but true diarrhea is a side effect
> of disease, imo. Loose, runny or sloppy stools can result from new
> foods, too much food at one time, too much new foods, newly
introduced
> proteins, boneless meals, organs, etc. Loose poops are not
necessarily
> a bad thing.

His stools were liquidy, not "can't control it, gotta go diarrhea."
He's had two soft movements since the injury. I' ve never done the
SEBP 'cuz even when mom was dumb and gave him a whole liver and he
went 4 times during the night, he never was disturbed or out of
control. He woke me up, he went outside, had the cannonball squirts,
then was happy to go back inside and go right to bed. Gave me the
wiggle butt and everything. According to list guidelines, that's not
diarrhea, right?

> 4) Constipation and gut irritation can result from pain meds and
anti
> inflammatories

I'm definitely aware of this as well, cuz the same thing happens to
humans. :o) Thanks for the advice, I guess maybe this will be the
longer term side effect(now he's liquidy!)

> 5) IMO, dry skin cannot be helped by feeding sardines.

I guess my thought on this was to add omega threes by using food
versus adding "capsules." I hate to supplement my diet with anything
except food. Is this incorrect thinking?

> 6) If your pup has 'skin allergies', or sensitivities at this young
> age, I'd look to eliminating chemicals and additives from his foods,
> supps and environments.

He DOES have very, very sensitive skin. I started him on a pinch
(after severely bruising and scraping my hands first) and he welts up
after use. I don't correct him, just keep a shorter leash and allow
the pinch to remind him not to pull. So, I know it wasn't me being
abusive, just figured he was allergic to it. I bought a
hypoallergenic one, and that one has been good so far. I guess my
only options to remove chemicals are to buy organic(whew $$!,) stop
heartguard and frontline(though I take him to doggy day care and they
require it.) Other than that, what else can I do?? I guess the
holistic vet can give me some more ideas, too, tomorrow.

As far as how Khan is doing, are you kidding? :O) I let him out to
go "outside" off leash and had to chase him down the sidewalk. Damn
dog is faster than me with just three legs! He's actually starting
to rest it down sometimes and sometimes put weight on it. He's
moving the leg more, stretching it out, laying on it. He is sleeping
more, but I'm sure the tramadol is helping him sleep, as well as the
trauma. Oh, he's also on "carprophen" which is one of the NSAIDS(you
did post the link to that, thanks.)

Thank you so much for the info, Giselle!! And for caring!
> TC and let us know how you and Khan progress!
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey

Thanks again,
Anna (and poor, gimpy Khan, who doesn't seem to realize that he's
hurt.)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Roxane" <roxanegraham@...> wrote:
>
> It looks like a lot of people feed raw once a day and I was wondering
> why they do so. I do like to feed twice a day, is there some reason I
> should not.
>
Hi Roxane,
There is no "rule" reason not to feed twice a day, but there are some
things for you to consider when you decide what is best for you and
your dog and that might even include feeding less often than once a
day. I think that you will find that feeding twice a day
doesn't allow you to get the maximum benefits of feeding a raw
diet--dental cleaning and mental and physical challenge. Raw feeding
seemed to be, for me, an evolving process. I started out feeding twice
a day and realized that they weren't really getting to do lots
of chewing because the portions were just too small for involved
eating. So, i dropped down to one meal a day. After a few months of
feeding once a day , i celebrated Thanksgiving by giving each dog a
whole turkey. They loved it. They had to gnaw and chew and twist their
heads and really use their teeth and their brains to eat that thing.
They started out eating the turkey at an " i better get this thing
down pronto" pace to just sitting there and resting a little, chewing
again, relaxing a little.. Now i feed on a "no schedule" schedule, and
it seems to work the best for me. I feed based on the size of what i
have to feed, not the day,the clock, or the scale. Since feeding
random days at random times, my dogs eat slower. They are not food
obsessed anymore, and i honestly think they enjoy their food more. I
think that feeding this way allows them to experience eating the way
mother nature intended for them to eat --like the wolves that they
are. JMO, KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

Kathy, this is really food for thought (pardon the pun lol) for me! It does
make a lot of sense.

Mona

"They started out eating the turkey at an " i better get this thing
down pronto" pace to just sitting there and resting a little, chewing
again, relaxing a little.. Now i feed on a "no schedule" schedule, and
it seems to work the best for me. I feed based on the size of what i
have to feed, not the day,the clock, or the scale. Since feeding
random days at random times, my dogs eat slower. They are not food
obsessed anymore, and i honestly think they enjoy their food more. I
think that feeding this way allows them to experience eating the way
mother nature intended for them to eat --like the wolves that they
are. JMO, KathyM"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "lar07911" lar07911@yahoo.com lar07911
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:43 pm ((PDT))

For my little dog and her energy level, she burns a lot of energy and
often vomits up bile at random times if she hasn't had enough to eat.
I have done what other people have told me to and switched up her
feeding schedule with little to no luck. She knows when she is full
and walks out of her crate when she is finished. Often times there is
still a lot of meat present. Sometimes she barely eats and sometimes
she gorges herself.

I feed several times a day because it works best for my dog. I have
tried to feed her one big meal only that day and she will almost
always throw up that night or the next morning.

I think it is a personal choice and what works best for you and your
dog! It makes sense to me that people feed one large portion a day
and sometimes skip meals like what would happen in the wild, but so
far that approach hasn't worked for my little one. Hope this helps!

Laura

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Roxane Graham" roxanegraham@yahoo.com roxanegraham
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

I do understand that he needs more meat than that, I have a bunch of bonless chicken breast that I am trying to use up, thats why I went with the wing section just to add some bone. Roxane

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
You most likely don't have anything to worry about, but you definitely want
to feed larger and meatier than wings!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Roxane" <roxanegraham@yahoo.com>

I am just starting my pug on raw. I gave him part of a chicken wing for
his bone. I cut the wing at the joint so he got about a 3 inch piece.
He Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this? Roxane

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/9/2007 2:00:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
roxanegraham@yahoo.com writes:

Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this?

Roxanne,

is he having trouble breathing? choking? if not.. he'll most likely be
fine. But in the future you want to feed BIGGER food, especially to a pug. Pugs
as a breed seem to have an extreme need to gulp their food.. Always feed
bigger than the dogs' head, especially in the beginning when dogs are VERY eager to
eat.

After a few months, when he gets used to this fancy cool new food, you may be
able to reduce the size of the hunks o meat and he may just chew them without
a problem.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Mary" maryjwilliams@comcast.net ryanlw23
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Roxane.

I have two pugs and they are notorious for gulping. I am pretty sure
your pug will ok and now would be time to start thinking offering your
dog bigger pieces. Not only will this help prevent the gulping, but
it will give their jaws a work out in addition to some teeth cleaning
action.

I try to feed my pugs pieces such as chicken quarters, Cornish game
hens, and whole quails. Anything else I feed, I make sure it cannot
be gulped before offering it to them.

--Mary W.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Roxane" <roxanegraham@...> wrote:
>
> I am just starting my pug on raw. I gave him part of a chicken wing for
> his bone. I cut the wing at the joint so he got about a 3 inch piece.
> He Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this? Roxane
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "mrskheath" mrskheath@yahoo.co.uk mrskheath
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mrskheath" <mrskheath@> wrote:
> >
>
> >
>
> Again chicken necks are too small. Turkey necks are ok if you feed
> them whole. Most grocery stores sell turkey necks cut in half. A
> whole turkey neck is about a foot long and often weighs over a lb.
>
> > I'll be honest...I am not as informed about all this as id like to
> be, and info is limited on raw feeding sites.
>
> Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
> book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
> lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at
> http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).
>
>
> I don't know where you got that information but the correct ratio is
> 1 meat/bone/organ to 0 veg. Dogs have no need for vegs, can't
> digest them and can't extract nutrients from them. That ration
> sounds like a human ratio. Dogs are not humans. Their body is
> designed much differently than ours and their nutritional
> requirements are a lot different.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Thankyou all for your guidance. I am glad the fruit and veg isnt
necessary, its hard work blending all that.

Can the chicken bones hurt him? I just have this image of my mind of
wild dogs eating bigger prey with tougher bones. Should I remove any
particular bones which pose a threat to him? Should I watch him
carefully first time with a chicken to make sure he doesnt choke? I
probably sound overly fussy, but like anyone I love my dogs and worry
that they will be hurt.

I can get chickens and turkey necks locally but not really rabbit
(hard to come by fresh where i live), joints of beef on the bone that
dont cost the world - in the south of uk it can be costly? Any tips
for obtaining the food at cheaper cost? The frozen 'prize choice' ones
that I am / was feeding are/were convenient (they just defrost and are
ready) and it costs me just £2.75 per 2Kg. So it works out cost
effective too, any ideas?

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trish!
I'm with Ginny and Jennie on this.
And, I think its perfectly reasonable to want to have your dog at home
where you can keep her under your personal care.

IME, most vets will have a tech teach you how to push sub Q fluids to
help keep your dog hydrated and teach you how to pill too, so you can
take them home.

Also, ime, dogs do better when at home.

Tell your vet its a budgetary issue, and don't take "We have a payment
plan.", or "We take credit cards." as an answer!

I never let my kid stay at a hospital without me when he was ill. And
my dogs never stayed unless critically ill. They came home with me
asap. Most (all?) vets won't let you stay with your dog, but unless
she is critically ill, she needs to be home with you. I've even taken
a dog home at night, and had them at the vets during the day.
btw, I had a friend, who was a nurse, crawl into the crate at the vets
with her dog who had an endoscopy done. (long story) She refused to
leave him after she found out there would be no one with him
overnight. ; )

Why is she on Prednisone? I'd wean her off asap.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thank you for the concern Ginny and Jennie, they have her on IV with
> nothing by mouth.
<snip>
> After doing a lot of reading on the forums I discovered the link
> between prednisone and pancreatitis. She has been on the pred every
> other day now for a few weeks.
<snip>
> > ******
> > > Scares the hell out of me, sorry. Go get her, why don't you? They
> > > can't do anything until they get the results anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > > ginny and Tomo, being unreasonable
> >
> > *****
> >
> > OMG I SOOOO agree with Ginny - go get your baby first thing tomorrow
> > morning if you can't get to her today!!!!!

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6. Different coloured liver and kidneys (for eating, not the dogs orga
Posted by: "Judith Kellett" llan@ozemail.com.au llan1965
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

Lighter colour in organs usually relates to younger animals. Lamb's
liver is paler than older sheep, similarly older cattle have darker
liver & kidneys. If you can find pale beef liver,it's actually veal
liver & a luxury for humans. Just don't cook it till it's dry-
undercooked is nicest.
I don't know the US situation, but for a very long time dog owners
in Australia were vigorously discouraged from feeding sheep offal to
dogs, as it perpetuated the existence of a tapeworm that was very
dangerous to humans (google "Hydatid cysts").
Cheers,Judy and Wallace the happy.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Large dog with diarrhea for a few days....
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Laura, the people on this list are going to give you fantastic advice. Read all of it.
I have a 90 lbs. pure breed Lab. About 2 weeks after I started him on all raw he suddenly vomitted one day and had 4 days of diarrhea. I had introduced several different kinds of protein that week, including some liver (about 10% of his meal). I stopped everything but the chicken right after he vomitted. I couldn't understand why he still had diarrhea. I had followed all the instructions that the people on this list had given me and he still had diarrhea. I finally got some slipper elm (the fourth day) and bought some fresh chicken, fed him a little more bone at each meal and VIOLA!! all better.(I never fasted him nor gave him anything but raw protein, no dairy, no veggies, no fruit, nothing cooked and certainly NO KIBBLE NOR CANNED DOG FOOD).
After he was better for 2 weeks I introduced the same proteins as before and he was fine. The only variable that I hadn't considered was that the chicken I fed him when he vomitted was quite "stinky" and continued to feed it to him because so many people here on this list say their dogs eat it and it's ok. I guess my dog had a more sensitive digestive tract. He's been fine ever since and has had all the same proteins and liver. Since then the rule at my house is, "if the humans won't eat it, the dog doesn't get it either". I have returned chicken to the supermarket that has smelled awful since then because I didn't want this happening again.
I have been giving him digestive enzymes since I started him on raw to help him with the transition because of his sensitive digestive tract but am weaning him from it. The bottle is almost finished now and I'm not buying any more.
Good luck.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "lizwehrli" lizwehrli@yahoo.com lizwehrli
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

Beckie,

I have been following this thread since you first posted. My dog Gus,
Standard Poodle was diagnosed with pancreatitis in Nov. 2005. He had
a very elevated amylase but not the lipase. He was treated for
pancreatitis. OOPS, that wasn't it. After 4 months of struggling
with "specialists" I finally figured out what was wrong with him. He
has addisons disease, an adrenal insufficiency. After over a year, he
still has an elevated lipase. High amylase and lipase is the indicator
of pancreatitis I believe. Gus never had any symptoms of
pancreatitis. Because I was concerned, it was over 500 pts. higher
than the reference ranges, I faxed all of his blood tests to Dr. Jean
Dodd. She evalutated and said it's nothing. Don't worry. As time has
gone by and we monitor his blood for his AD, it continues to go down.
2 pts is actually within the margin of error for the equipment used.

Liz

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Beckie,
>
> There are many causes of pancreatitis...drugs such as prednisone
being one
> of them.
>
> But your dog's amylase was not elevated enough to cause any concern.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "beckie716" <beckie716@...>
>
>
> Whoa! I just read in another post that there may be evidence of a link
> with prednisone/pancreatitis.

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "rokedemyah" rokedemyah@yahoo.com rokedemyah
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Ok al tha tmakes sense . I told ya, Im a rank newbie.LOL
Now all I have to do is find a raw feeder vet and once we get set up
for it i'm good to go. Is any one on list doing strictly herbal
treatment for problems with raw feed critters? Reason I ask is we
have been doing that with all our pets for years but Id love to find
folks like minded in that specific area. For the record yes I looked
at the homopatic list, its not appropiate for that area.
Barb

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Deena" <mottola@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Barb,
>
> IMO, it depends on *which* enzymes are high or low.
>

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. dogs chewing RMBs
Posted by: "luvmyberner_bernerlove" jodycaira@charter.net luvmyberner_bernerlove
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 4:42 pm ((PDT))

My 70 lb dog will chew all the meat off of RMBs even when I feed
easy/softer bones like turkey necks, most ribs (lamb, goat, pork) and
turkey legs. What's left when he's done chewing the meat away is
naked bones and in my mind one big choking hazard, so I wind up
taking the bones away from him. Because of this I have begun to get
out my meat mallet for turkey neck crushing and buying ground
meat/bones - therefore HE loses the benefits of chewing bones,
getting proper calcuim and I lose track of what goes in.

Do most dogs this size eagerly chomp through meat and bones together?
Or chew the meat away first and eat the naked bones last? Do I need
to worry that a naked bone ribcage/neck/or other edible bone is being
chewed on?

His teeth and jaw seem fine. Everything this dog does, he does
gently - even eat.

I know he will eat whole chicken/rabbit, I don't really feed chicken
though.

What else should I try? I need to get some good edible bone in him.

Thank you.

Jody

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: dogs chewing RMBs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvmyberner_bernerlove" <jodycaira@...> wrote:

> Do most dogs this size eagerly chomp through meat and bones together?
> Or chew the meat away first and eat the naked bones last? Do I need
> to worry that a naked bone ribcage/neck/or other edible bone is being
> chewed on?

It depends. Sometimes the dogs will strip the meat from a pork shoulder first and then
eat the bone, sometimes they eat it together. Most of the time they eat the meat and such
off of ribs before consuming the bone. Pork necks generally get eaten all at once but beef
/buffalo just get the meat stripped off.

If your dog is willing to eat the bone after the meat is gone I wouldn't consider it a choking
hazard unless he is still trying to eat it with gusto. Mine are pretty tired by the time they
get down to consuming the leftover bone so they aren't prone to stupid eating. I might
worry about the turkey necks, though.

> What else should I try? I need to get some good edible bone in him.

Keep in mind that he doesn't need a whole lot of edible bone in his diet. A chicken or
rabbit here and there should suffice if he decides not to eat the bone in other foods you
offer. If it is a big bone aversion he might get over it, or he just might like to eat his meat
first.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: dogs chewing RMBs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jody,

Have you ever let him actually eat say, a lamb or pork rib, then, or
have you always taken them away? If he's eaten any, how did he do?
So, does he do well with a whole rabbit? You could feed more of
that. How can he get the meat off a turkey neck without eating the
bone?!

Can you get any other necks (lamb, pork, goat?)? Those are great,
safe bones for my dog (as long as they aren't cut into small pieces)--
he cleans off the meat, but then chomps the bones into very
manageable bits. Any hunk of goat is good, too. Like a 5# goat leg
or shoulder w/ribs--make that last for a few meals. Would be very
hard to end up with any choking hazards with that type of part. My
dog chomps meat and bone when the bone is softer, like poultry and
rabbit. But others are mostly cleaned off and eaten.

I think maybe you need to think bigger? Even if he strips the meat
off a goat leg, most if not all of the bone that's left will be
safely eaten. I can see your concern if he ends up with a small
naked bone he can eat in one gulp, but by then he may be full enough
to eat it appropriately. If you are still concerned, by all means,
remove it. And continue trying to find the "just right" bone size
for your dog.

And remember, he doesn't need a LOT of bone. :-)

Hope that helps,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvmyberner_bernerlove"
<jodycaira@...> wrote:
>
> My 70 lb dog will chew all the meat off of RMBs even when I feed
> easy/softer bones like turkey necks, most ribs (lamb, goat, pork)
and
> turkey legs. What's left when he's done chewing the meat away is
> naked bones and in my mind one big choking hazard, so I wind up
> taking the bones away from him.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:08 pm ((PDT))

Sandee,

Just joined the other list and waiting for approval, great idea, thanks!

Mona

From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Sandee Lee
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 3:49 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Aggression!!!

Mona,

Go over to the rawchat list and read past messages about resource guarding.
We have discussed this issue quite often.....
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mona" <mona@ptd.net <mailto:mona%40ptd.net> >

What the heck is this all
about and what do I do to nip it in the bud?? I CANNOT have a food
aggressive dog in my home as I ALWAYS have young kids around (my 7yo
twin girls included)!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Aggression!!!
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:08 pm ((PDT))

Mona,
Give Bella at least a few weeks to relax about her new food. I think Annette is right, she really really likes her new food and isn't getting enough of it. I believe your Bella is a pretty big dog, she should be getting at least a quarter chicken for her meals. Once she realizes that she will be getting more of this all the time, she'll relax. Our Lab (90 lbs.) had a lamb bone once at the end of his meal when my boyfriend thought, that's too big for him to eat I'd better take it away, so he walked over to take the bone and Nugget just swallowed the whole bone so he wouldn't get it. He eventually threw it back up because the bf was right, it was too big but he didn't give Nugget the benefit of the doubt that he would chew it up and then eat it. We try to stay away from him when he's eating, not because he'll be aggressive but because we don't want him to gulp his food for fear of having it taken away. He now knows that we will give it back so we have taken it away a few
times then given it back to gain his trust. Your Bella is too young and too new to raw to know that.
Be patient.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

Ivette & the others who've answered

First off I want to thank you all soooo much for your support! As you can
tell I was panicking and had I thought it thru I prob would have come to a
similar conclusion. I'm going to start giving her larger portions of food
and play the games with her to show her its all good and she needn't worry
about anyone in our family taking her food. I'm going to keep in mind all
that advice about how she if finally getting REAL food and the lightbulb
prob went off in her brain when she realized what real food tastes like and
I'm fairly certain she won't ever want to go back to the very expensive
supposedly healthy CRAP she was eating prior LOL.

On a lighter note, I just realized that I can't wait for my in-laws to come
over for dinner so I can see their reaction when I take a perfectly good
hunk of meat and throw it on the floor for the dogs to eat,LOL. That's
gonna be a Kodak moment if ever there was one!!! They already think I'm
nuts since I nursed my twins till they weaned and tv is limited in our home
and I buy organic stuff etc etc etc. They are really gonna think I've gone
over the deep end now!

Regards,

Mona

PS: Just so you know, my hubby is totally supportive of our lifestyle and I
don't want to bad-mouth his parents, they are very loving people actually
and we get along fine, they just think I'm nuts is all LOL.

From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ivette Casiano
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:55 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re:Aggression!!!

Mona,
Give Bella at least a few weeks to relax about her new food. I think Annette
is right, she really really likes her new food and isn't getting enough of
it. I believe your Bella is a pretty big dog, she should be getting at least
a quarter chicken for her meals. Once she realizes that she will be getting
more of this all the time, she'll relax. Our Lab (90 lbs.) had a lamb bone
once at the end of his meal when my boyfriend thought, that's too big for
him to eat I'd better take it away, so he walked over to take the bone and
Nugget just swallowed the whole bone so he wouldn't get it. He eventually
threw it back up because the bf was right, it was too big but he didn't give
Nugget the benefit of the doubt that he would chew it up and then eat it. We
try to stay away from him when he's eating, not because he'll be aggressive
but because we don't want him to gulp his food for fear of having it taken
away. He now knows that we will give it back so we have taken it away a few
times then given it back to gain his trust. Your Bella is too young and too
new to raw to know that.
Be patient.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10d. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "heather pavelin" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:41 pm ((PDT))

*On a lighter note, I just realized that I can't wait for my in-laws to come
over for dinner so I can see their reaction when I take a perfectly good
hunk of meat and throw it on the floor for the dogs to eat,LOL. That's
gonna be a Kodak moment if ever there was one!!! They already think I'm
nuts since I nursed my twins till they weaned and tv is limited in our home
and I buy organic stuff etc etc etc. They are really gonna think I've gone
over the deep end now!*

Hehe we live with this lifestyle also but my mil is who got me into it and its my mom who thinks I am nuts! She just glazed over when I told her about the raw diet. She has a chiwawa (I know I butchered that) that has some issues health wise but hey she eats fast food all the time so she doesnt listen to anything I say. I think its fun to show people my dogs chowing on their chicken halves lol. Good luck Heather

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Stinky Kitchen
Posted by: "michelleraia1" michelleraia1@yahoo.com michelleraia1
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

My husband says our who kitchen area stinks like raw meat all of the
time. I clean the counters after preparing the meals~is there anything
else I can do~I don't want him to hate raw feeding...HELP~

Michelle

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Stinky Kitchen
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:42 pm ((PDT))

The main thing I've found with regards to this is to take the garbage
out right away and not let the packaging or bits I trim off sit in
there and rot. I don't see why anything would stink if you clean the
sink and counters and take out the garbage. Maybe your husband is
extra sensitive or has a super sense of smell. If you have a window
in the kitchen, air it out a bit. Or use a little bit of one of
those natural citrus air sprays. They work wonders and don't smell
perfumey. Maybe set out a box of baking soda?

Just a few thoughts,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "michelleraia1"
<michelleraia1@...> wrote:
>
> My husband says our who kitchen area stinks like raw meat all of
the
> time. I clean the counters after preparing the meals~is there
anything
> else I can do~I don't want him to hate raw feeding...HELP~
>
> Michelle
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: Stinky Kitchen
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:42 pm ((PDT))

Purchases glad air thingy:P I had th same problem with my mother... but the
only reason she said it was to try and get me to stop feeding raw peroid.
Try keep an air fresher around ... something soft to lighten up the room.
Also if by any change you are throwing bones into the garbage cause the dog
didn't eat them... bingo... that's a source of stink. I give beef bones(
which trust me Malo can eat a beef bone... just not all of it always)... and
if will toss out the left overs ... but I freeze it then toss it... and make
sure I get rid of the bag ASAP.

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC PTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: "michelleraia1" <michelleraia1@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] Stinky Kitchen
>Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 23:55:46 -0000
>
>My husband says our who kitchen area stinks like raw meat all of the
>time. I clean the counters after preparing the meals~is there anything
>else I can do~I don't want him to hate raw feeding...HELP~
>
>Michelle
>

_________________________________________________________________
Former Police Officer Paul Gillespie's TAKE BACK THE INTERNET tips and
tricks, watch the video now

http://safety.sympatico.msn.ca/

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Pamela!
Have you tried any other proteins?

There's a lot to choose from.
Why not try turkey, or pork, or rabbit, or fish, or ....

IMO, loud tummy gurgling is the opposite of what I'm worried about
with bloat. No bowel sounds mean digestion has effectively stopped.
Farting and belching I also consider good. : )

Did you check the label on the chicken to be sure there are no salt
solutions, water, seasonings or flavor enhancements added to the
chicken you're feeding?
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Matisse, my 10 years old standard poodle, has all the same stuff. Some
> fingers point at chicken allergy.
<snip>
> I am new to this, but find that introducing a new protein very slowly
> helps. I am very interested in what the group says about this.
>
> Pamela Picard
> http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
> http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
> aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Salmon oil questions
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

>Is it okay to do this just to get them to take the oil, or does anyone have other >suggestions?

Hi. I think if you choose learner ground meat like chicken or Turkey,and maybe you can make thumb nail sized meatball mixed with fish body oil.That way,you may no need to worry about runny poo etc.

I myself is giving capsule and, palette was trying to chew like eating rib bone,and took a day or so that she can swallow it without actual chew. It was funny she looked like mice:-P

If you someday decided to give fish oil capsule,not pump,you can put dash of yogurt cheese about pinky nail size around capsule,and dog would swallow without any hesitation.

It is much healthier than coating pill with peanut butter.

yassy

ps;if you needed to know how to make yogurt cheese,please send me a private message and I tell you how to. It is pretty easy.

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12020

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: beckie716
1b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: performance dogs
From: betty hinson

3a. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
From: flyinheller
3b. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: chronic diarrhea
From: carnesbill
5b. Re: chronic diarrhea
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Large dog with diarrhea for a few days....
From: Giselle

7a. Re: Aggression!!!
From: Sandee Lee
7b. Re: Aggression!!!
From: nkjvcjs

8a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

9.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

10a. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
From: Pamela Picard
10b. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: * shadygrove
11b. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com
11c. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: Yasuko herron

12a. Re: Hurt Puppy
From: Giselle

13a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: Sandee Lee

14a. Re: Intro with questions
From: Giselle

15a. A Little Freaked Out
From: Roxane
15b. Re: A Little Freaked Out
From: Sandee Lee

16a. Re: Poop question
From: Giselle

17a. Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Whoa! I just read in another post that there may be evidence of a link
with prednisone/pancreatitis. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly
very sick * update-looks like. My dog just went through a round of
prednisone 3-4 weeks ago, and had another injection of some steroid on
the same day as blood testing.

I wonder?

Beckie :)

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

Beckie,

There are many causes of pancreatitis...drugs such as prednisone being one
of them.

But your dog's amylase was not elevated enough to cause any concern.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "beckie716" <beckie716@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: performance dogs
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

Hey LInda Betty Here I just feed a regular diet to my Paps when showing in agility. Thye seem to do welll and have the energy. With a raw diet no need of anything extra. ITs the kibble diets that will get to them See you at Franklin
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "flyinheller" lheller@bellsouth.net flyinheller
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "flyinheller" <lheller@...> wrote:
>
> Everything is going great on raw but just wanted to make sure I'm
> giving enough variety when it comes to organs specifically. Spenser
is
> getting beef or pork liver, beef or pork kidney, and occasionally
green
> tripe. I haven't found much else at the stores. Is that sufficient
> organ variety?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lisa
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "flyinheller" <lheller@...> wrote:
>
> Spenser is
> getting beef or pork liver, beef or pork kidney, and occasionally
> green tripe. I haven't found much else at the stores. Is
> that sufficient organ variety?

Sure, it's more than my dogs get.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Roxane" <roxanegraham@...> wrote:
>
> It looks like a lot of people feed raw once a day and I
> was wondering
> why they do so. I do like to feed twice a day, is there some
> reason I should not.

I think many of the once a day or every other day feeders do so in
order to feed larger pieces such as whole chickens etc.

I prefer to feed twice a day just because thats what me and my dogs
prefer. I have no problem with feeding parts of animals instead of
the whole animal.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jen S" <jennilist@...> wrote:
>
> He had parvo when
> he was at the shelter, and my vet said that because of this he will
> always have a problem with loose stools. Is this true?

I don't have any experience with Parvo but I doubt that is true.

> My question is (besides can parvo cause lifelong looser stool) does
> anyone have any idea why he might have diarrhea so badly? He
> gets a
> good amount of bone, not a lot of organ meat

Whats a good amount of bone for one dog may not be nearly enough for
another. Particularly one who has not yet adjusted properly to a
raw diet.

> I try to feed him a little more bone than
> my other dog in hopes that it will firm up his stools, but
> it doesn't
> seem to work.

If it were my dog I would feed him so real boney stuff like chicken
backs and turkey necks almost exclusively and I would also cut down
on the volume of food I give him by about 1/2 for a few weeks. I
would also cut off any excess fat and cut off skin. I would not
feed him any organs for a couple of months. If diet is the cause of
his diarrhea, this should do the trick.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

>Sorry for asking a question that was recently answered.

Hi. Asking is better than not asking because you have to wonder all the time:-P

List is where you gain your knowledge by asking.Don't worry.

I just thought that I would mention that some similar questions were posted before and,thought that it may become added info for you,that is all.

Hope your dogs get better..

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Large dog with diarrhea for a few days....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Laura!
There's a few issues here that I would identify as needing
tweaking, if this were my dog.

a) Your dog's diet is too limited. Even if HE doesn't seem to want to
eat other proteins and organs, he needs to. You are The Mom here, you
get to decide what's best for him, and provide it. And help him learn
how to like it. More on that later.

b) Yogurt isn't 'the best' remedy for anything for dogs. After their
own mother's milk, dogs have no need of, nor ability to properly
digest, milk products. For true diarrhea, you need a vet. Most loose,
runny or sloppy stools are not diarrhea, just the dog's natural
response to what he ate. Constantly trying to get "perfect poop" every
time like the kibble ads promote in a raw fed dog is doomed to
failure, and isn't at all necessary.

c) Chicken - some dogs get itchy, some dogs get extra runny poops,
some dogs vomit when they eat chicken that is enhanced in some way.
Read the labels; look for enhanced, seasoned, flavored, salt injected
- there are lots of creative ways that it can say; liquid and other
stuff added. Try to get minimally processed meats, and see if your dog
responds better.

d) Offer plenty of fresh water, even no salt chicken or beef broth to
keep him well hydrated.

e) Fast him for a day. Don't offer any food. Sometimes a dog's
digestive system, when it is irritated, just needs a rest.

f) You can dose him with some Slippery Elm Bark Powder,to soothe his
digestive system during the fast day. This will coat his stomach and
intestines with mucous and calm down any inflammation or irritation.

g) Back to being the dog mom; when you reintroduce food, you need to
give him the tough love treatment. Start out with the (nonenhanced)
chicken he likes. Feed smaller portions, but feed from the whole
chicken, all the parts. Anything he doesn't eat goes back in the
fridge for the next meal. He gets only what he rejected for the next
meal. He doesn't want it? fine. Serve it only for 2 days. Then, move
on to something else. If you don't offer in between meal inducements
or large portions of the parts he does like, he will learn to eat what
is provided for him. Don't hover, don't coax, don't hand feed. If he
doesn't eat it in 10-15 minutes, put it back in the fridge.

h) After a few days, start adding a bit of another protein to his
preferred chicken. Even if he hasn't liked it before, reintroduce it
to him. Warm it in a plastic bag under very warm water, or sear it
very quickly in a hot pan. Just a couple small bits. If you are
keeping his portions a bit smaller than what you think he should eat,
he should start 'clearing his plate'. Increase the bits of other
protein, and decrease the chicken, until he is eating an entire meal
of the other protein. Feed just that protein for a week. Then, add
another, and so forth.

i) Some dogs like their food cold, or partially or mostly frozen.
Others like it warm. Play with that, offering new proteins and organs
at his preferred temperature. Smearing a newly introduced protein with
some mashed canned fish or tripe, or some other smelly but often liked
foods, can ease the switch. Just phase out the 'seasoning' gradually.
Cutting slits in the new protein to mush the smelly stuff into can
encourage the dog to start to eat it.

j) Apples, and any other plant matter, are not part of an optimal diet
for a dog. Dogs are carnivores, and need just meat, fat, organ and
bone in their diet.

k) Eggs can be loosening - they're good protein. But, they do tend to
produce loose stools in some dogs.

10) Probiotics are probably not necessary. If you dog has a disease or
digestive problem, he may benefit from them. If you need to feed them,
get a good human quality probiotic, one that is enteric coated, dairy
free, has multiple strains and is free of additives like soy, sugar,
preservatives, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic

11) Review all the recommendations I'm going to post. Its always a
good idea to take a look at what you know about raw feeding, and how
that compares to how you are feeding.

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble or canned â" thereâ™s been plenty of discussion on
this list about why processed foods and raw don't mix; just let it
suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble.
Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
up, â˜bite sizedâ™ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
health. They donâ™t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isnâ™t happy in the
stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. All good, thatâ™s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
can get âœ fossilâ poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, no
thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he's gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the â˜stuffâ™, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs donâ™t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

âœ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Samâ™s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, â˜cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lisâ

19. Donâ™t hover! It takes some dogs a couple of days to realize that
what youâ™re giving them is real food, and theyâ™re allowed to eat it.
This process will take less time if youâ™re not standing over them in
an excess of anxiety. Some dogs react to that kind of anxiety by
acting as if they donâ™t want the food, when in reality, they are just
confused by your mixed signals. Remember, âœpeople foodâ has always
been off limits to him prior to this! Take the food to his feeding
place, put it on an old towel or rug and have a seat. Donâ™t stare, but
do hang out, reading a magazine until heâ™s done and you can let him
outside and fold up his towel.

Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> We've been feeding him raw for at least 6 months now, so it's not
> really new to him. He eats primarily chicken leg quarters. Primarily
> = 90% of the time. We've tried to introduce other things, but he
> refuses to even try them.
<snip>
As for probiotics, can he eat people probiotics?
<snip>
> Thanks so much for your help.
>
> Laura

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

Mona,

Go over to the rawchat list and read past messages about resource guarding.
We have discussed this issue quite often.....
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mona" <mona@ptd.net>

What the heck is this all
about and what do I do to nip it in the bud?? I CANNOT have a food
aggressive dog in my home as I ALWAYS have young kids around (my 7yo
twin girls included)!

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mona" <mona@...> wrote:
>
> Please tell me you can help!!

> I mean REALLY deep down growling and I told her not to growl

Please don't inhibit growling in your dogs. Your dog growls to let
you know that she is uncomfortable with what is happening. If you
make her stop growling without changing the underlying uncomfotable
feelings, you will have a dog that has no communication mechanism left
but to snap or bite.

> Well, I then grabbed the towel away, taking the chicken with it and
> took the chicken and started letting her eat it while I was holding
> it (yuck!) but she was fine!

Here, you two are sharing, you both have possession, and no one is
taking anything away from anyone.

> Then I put it down again and if my hand
> went anywhere near her she growled again!

Now, she has posession, and you might take it away, entirely diffent
perspective from a dog's point of view.

> What the heck is this all
> about and what do I do to nip it in the bud?? I CANNOT have a food
> aggressive dog in my home as I ALWAYS have young kids around (my 7yo
> twin girls included)!

Resource guarding is very situation dependent, but many think it has a
genetic component. Now she has something she really, really likes,
and really does not want to be taken away. Also, you say pup, so she
is also reaching maturity, and realizing that she has interests, and
can defend them.
To keep kids safe it would be best to feed her in her crate only while
you work on changing her mind about the resource guarding.

It was really only a matter of time before the resource guarding
appeared.
The best way to stop resource guarding is to convince your dog that
good thinks happen when people approach her food.
Have something super, super great, (you dog gets to decide what great
is, liver pieces, chicken, lamb, whatever your dog would do anything
for,) and instead of taking her food away, move your hand just close
enough to get her to stop eating, and close her mouth, but not growl
yet, and toss in several pieces of the great stuff. Once she is not
only comfortable, but excited to see your hand at that distance, move
it a bit closer, until you can touch the food, while you feed her the
good stuff. Then you can start to trade. Take the food, jackpot with
great stuff (ie 10-20 treats in a row, as fast as she will eat them)
then give the food back.
Practice this often. You can't let it slide.
Then, start the process over with the kids doing the great stuff
adding and so on.
Once she is letting you trade consistently, you can fade the jackpots
to 1 or 2 treats, but 9 of every 10 times you take anything from her,
she should get it back. So that something being taken away isn't a big
deal, she gets great stuff, and gets the thing back. On the rare
occasion that it is something you can't give back, you have a trade,
and she's no worse for the wear.

You should also teach a "drop it"
good protocol here
http://www.petexpertise.com/about_us/dropitleaveit.htm

Since there are kids involved, you should really get a trainer or
behaviourist to help you out with this.

Hope this helps,

Nicole

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.

**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (117)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dmoore930" <dmoore930@...> wrote:
>
Zoey frequently has the loudest gurgling tummy for at least an hour
after eating. This morning she had her boneless meal of pork, fish oil
capsule, and thyroid pill. I can hear her from the other room. Sadie
sometimes does this too. Is this normal?
> > Diana in SE lower Michigan (any other Michiganders out there?)
>
***
Good question. I'm glad you asked.

Matisse, my 10 years old standard poodle, has all the same stuff. Some
fingers point at chicken allergy. He was in 4 weeks of an elimination
diet and eating beef, allergy symptoms including lick granuloma, red
ears, massive staph eruptions improved. Then he developed terrible
gastritis from beef - tummy gurling, squealing so loud I could hear it
from the other room. He's prone to bloat. So I can't have tummy
gurgling. Back to chicken. Tummy's fine. Allergic reactions to skin
re-emerge.

I am new to this, but find that introducing a new protein very slowly
helps. I am very interested in what the group says about this.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Diana!
Welcome to the raw side!
TYVM
It sounds as if you've done your homework!

Oh, yes, the lingo, you've got it, all right. ; )
One of these days I'm gonna type up a glossary or list of raw feeding
acronyms, mottos and terms of useage.
one of these days....

A1) Well, there's nothing actually wrong with feeding twice a day,
some dogs do better on eating this way, for various health and/or
environmental reasons. Most dogs, imo, can benefit from eating larger
portions less frequently. Even every other day feedings or gorge 'n
fast, or a mix of all the above. What a lot of people who want to
switch do, is feed a smaller and smaller meal at the time they want to
phase out, and feed a correspondingly larger meal at the time they
want to keep. Eventually, what you get is one meal a day at the time
you want to feed. Or, a token treat at the 'old' meal time and a
regular, more convenient meal time. I'd recommend that after you go to
one meal a day, you start randomizing that time, at lest by a few
hours. Feeding at one set time can lead to BV, or BBV ; )

A2) A gurgling tummy, imo, is the sign of a working digestive system!
Just be glad they don't have meat farts. : ) Raw does digest faster
then kibble or cooked foods.

Glad to hear there's no longer any poop eating at your house! I had
one Schippy, who never, unfortunately, got to eat raw, who was also
hypothyroid and was a cophroologist. (cophrogist?) Anyway, I sometimes
wonder what effect eating raw would have had on his habit. I subscribe
to the "there must be something missing in his diet" or "something he
can't metabolize from his diet", school of thought. But I do also
think that there is a strong component of habit and opportunity involved.
I'll be looking forward to reading your posts!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello, I'm Zoey, 11 year old 52 lb lab mix and my sister is Sadie, 2
> year old(30 lb very tall) Shih-Tzu/terrier(wheaton?)mix. We were
> adopted as pups from shelters. We are kinda new to raw feeding, about 2
> months, and our 'mom' has been reading the daily digests every day.
<snip>
> A couple of questions:
> 1. I have quite a schedule of my own and am having a terrible time
> trying to switch to one meal a day. Plus the girls expect a meal before
> I go to work and one when I get home. I've tried to switch the times a
> bit but really can't. Any problem with long-term twice a day
> feeding?

> 2. Zoey frequently has the loudest gurgling tummy for at least an hour
> after eating. This morning she had her boneless meal of pork, fish oil
> capsule, and thyroid pill. I can hear her from the other room. Sadie
> sometimes does this too. Is this normal?
<snip>
I think I have the lingo right.
>
> Great group. I've learned a lot and now hope to be able to join in
> conversations. Oh, yeah, and Zoey is no longer eating her poop!!! I'm
> keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks!
>
> Diana in SE lower Michigan (any other Michiganders out there?)
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "* shadygrove" shadygrove101@yahoo.com shadygrove101
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

>gonna have to be more specific than that.. but by and large, beef bones, even
>veal bones are too dense for most dogs.. a bone is not meaty unless you can't
>see the bone under the meat..

These cuts are bone with chunks of meat
so this is not a meaty bone but a boney meat.
My dog is a 80lb german shepherd, and he took his time and chomped it up
before swallowing ( I watch him closely) so I thought it would be OK.

I think he did well with them, but if they are not recommended my this list then I won't buy any more.

The label did not specify what part of the veal they are from, so I assume they are some part of the leg near a joint.

When I asked the folks behind the counter for things for dogs, they pointed out the marrow bones, which I know are not good.
So I don't think they know too much about dogs and the proper bones to feed that's why I asked the question here on whether these bones were good to feed.

Thank you for your help,
Karen

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:55 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:09:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shadygrove101@yahoo.com writes:

These cuts are bone with chunks of meat
so this is not a meaty bone but a boney meat.

Karen,

there is no reason.. good or otherwise to feed naked or mostly naked bones to
any dog.

Never as a butcher about stuff for dogs.. you will get naked bones, not MEAT.
Butchers are not going to give you anything for dogs that they can make a
profit on selling for human food.

you WANT, MEAT with a bone in it.. meaty meat, and organs.. look for pork
picnic or shoulder butt or shoulder blade roasts, these are perfect examples of
meat with a bone in it. you want boneless beef briskets, shoulder clod roasts,
or entire shoulder clods. you want entire front or rear quarters of lambs or
goats. whole or half chickens, not parts..

are ya getting the idea?

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:06 pm ((PDT))

>These cuts are bone with chunks of meat so this is not a meaty bone but a boney meat.
>My dog is a 80lb german shepherd, and he took his time and chomped it up before >swallowing ( I watch him closely) so I thought it would be OK.

Hi,Karen. did your dog eat all bones without any problems?? I have seen Veal Neck bone at grocery store but never seen Veal shank(leg bone). It could have been Neck bone???

Maybe,you can ask meat guys what part of bone it is.They could answer you.

Did you add boneless meat when you fed the bone you got? If you see more bone than meat,you better off adding more meat to it to avoid constipation and to make more meaty meal.

I know some people on this list take bone away after dog stripping meat off from Beef rib or Buffalo ribs,but I don't. My dog eat it without any problems and, I am comfortable feeding it,so,I feed it and let her work on bones.

If the bone you gave was not neck and leg,then,you may need caution but,you would not know until you ask the guy.

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Hurt Puppy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Anna!
Glad your boy wasn't more badly hurt.
Young dog's bones growth plates can be damaged from injury to them;
http://life.familyeducation.com/dogs/exercise/45655.html
http://www.geocities.com/animal_rehabilitation/Sil_Injury_Prevention_2005.pdf

So aside from keeping him from doing too much, too soon, which I'm
sure you're aware is necessary for proper healing, I have a few
suggestions.

10 Any meds can have side effects. Ones to be aware of;
"Tramadol

http://www.medicinenet.com/tramadol/article.htm

SIDE EFFECTS: Tramadol is generally well tolerated, and side effects
are usually transient. Commonly reported side effects include nausea,
constipation, dizziness, headache, drowsiness, and vomiting. Less
commonly reported side effects include itching, sweating, dry mouth,
diarrhea, rash, visual disturbances, and vertigo. Some patients who
received tramadol have reported seizures. Abrupt withdrawal of
tramadol may result in anxiety, sweating, insomnia, rigors, pain,
nausea, diarrhea, tremors, and hallucinations."
anti inflammatories
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/191605.htm

"Prednisone
http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/monographs/prednisone.asp
Side Effects

â¢ Systemic side effects to corticosteroids are generally dependent on
dose and duration of treatment. Short-term use of prednisone is
unlikely to cause adverse effects. Adverse effects are more common in
animals on immunosuppressive doses.

â¢ Side effects seen in dogs include polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia,
poor haircoat, GI disturbance, diarrhea, vomiting, weight gain, GI
ulceration, pancreatitis, lipidemia, elevated liver enzymes, diabetes
mellitus, muscle wasting, and possible behavioral changes.

â¢ Polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia may be seen in dogs even on
short-term therapy.

â¢ Although cats are less likely to develop side effects than dogs,
occasionally polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia, weight gain, GI
disturbances and behavioral changes occur.

â¢ Corticosteroids can cause or worsen gastric ulcers."

2) With crate rest prescribed, or at least restricted activity, your
pup will may need to eat less temporarily. Reducing the amount of his
food, without restricting the main components; meat, fat, bone and
organs is key.
You might consider feeding less often; once or twice a day, to provide
him with large enough meals to engage his boredom and need for
activity. Chewies, Bully sticks or stuffed, frozen Kongs can help
offer chewing/eating activity, too. I freeze several chicken feet at a
time in a shallow container of water to provide some fun and chewing
activity for my dog. Feeding partially frozen meals can offer a little
more chewing activity also.

3) Stress can cause loose stools, but true diarrhea is a side effect
of disease, imo. Loose, runny or sloppy stools can result from new
foods, too much food at one time, too much new foods, newly introduced
proteins, boneless meals, organs, etc. Loose poops are not necessarily
a bad thing.

4) Constipation and gut irritation can result from pain meds and anti
inflammatories - a little judicious feeding of organ, maybe cutting
back a bit on bone temporarily, in the one case and dosing with some
Slippery Elm Bark Powder in the other case can help. A increase in
bone and a decrease in activity, along with pain meds, sounds like a
recipe for constipation.

" SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb that
soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP."

5) IMO, dry skin cannot be helped by feeding sardines. They are a good
protein source, and offer variety. Eggs are a good source of protein,
but can cause loose stools, too. Feeding a good quality Salmon or Fish
Body oil is a much better way of resolving dry skin and 'itchy' problems.

http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

6) If your pup has 'skin allergies', or sensitivities at this young
age, I'd look to eliminating chemicals and additives from his foods,
supps and environments.

TC and let us know how you and Khan progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello, all.
>
> I've been feeding Khan (my soon to be 6 mo old brown Doberman
> Pinscher) raw since shortly after I got him at 10 weeks. <snip>
> Saturday, he had a fall while we were hiking about 12 noon and hurt
> his rear left leg. <snip>
He slid into a gully
> about 15 feet at one of our state parks. Xray's so far are negative;
> radiologist will review a shadow we think is inflammation this coming
> Wednesday.
<snip>
> We fed him three chicken boneless, skinless breasts shortly after we
> got home and the morphine wore off. <snip>
He will
> be on an anti-inflammatory and tramadol for pain for about five days.
>
> Is there any special feeding I should be doing? He's had nothing but
> soft stool since the injury.
<snip>
But, any dietary advice from the
> experienced would be appreciated.
<snip>
> Thanks, guys,
> Anna
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:28 pm ((PDT))

A prey model raw diet includes bone which would have provided plenty of
calcium for a growing pup. Dogs require meat (and lots of it), a little
edible bone and some organs. No purees of fruits and sprouts are necessary.

You want to feed approximately 2-3% of expected or ideal adult weight per
day....80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. You don't need a specialist store
or poultry necks...stick with whole chickens, turkey and rabbit...and then
add meaty meals (large roasts of pork, goat, beef, etc. ).

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mrskheath" <mrskheath@yahoo.co.uk>

Hi, I have always used a raw minced meat with a kibble to feed my
Siberian Husky (the vet recommended the kibble as he needed calcium),
but he is growing bigger now and needs to get his teeth stuck into
something (he's 18 months).

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: Intro with questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Mona!
In a word; Yes! ^_^

What you need to do, is adjust your mindset a bit. People are brain
washed to feed XX amount of kibble or canned, as per what the
"experts" have put on the charts on the bags/cans!

The "chart" is inside your pup. ; )

Watch him, get used to really seeing how he looks as he grows. Put
your hands on him when you are petting or grooming him. Feel the way
his ribs are when he is lookin' good. Ditto for his backbone and
hipbones. Being able to feel a bit of bone without a pad of flesh over
it is how he should look. Being a pup, he will probably tend to get a
bit roly, then grow up a little and thin out. This is normal. But, the
"puppy uglies" where pups have enormous growth spurts and are all
ungainly and out of proportion for months are usually not the what you
get when you feed raw. Pups on raw generally grow at a slower, more
controlled rate. They get where they are supposed to be by the time
they reach maturity, they just don't pack on the pounds or have that
carb diet puffiness you see with kibble fed pups.

Feed him as you are for a week or two, get used to how your pup looks
and how he is growing. Then, reevaluate and review.

byw, I quote the guidelines for calculating how much to feed, because
new-to-raw peeps want/need to have a concrete number to start with.
I weighed my dogs, and their food, for about a week when I started
raw. ; ) Too much trouble, and not necessary, once you have the
concepts and get comfortable letting your dog's condition tell you
what you need to know. A few ounces, or a pound too much, or too
little here or there, it all balances out over time. : )

Trust yourself. And breathe.

Oh, I know about the spots on the tongue thingy as I own Newfs. Some
breeder's lines have it, some don't. I was intrigued by the curiosity
of it, so had done some casual research about it in other breeds also
some years ago.

http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/2007/04/retriever_dog_black_tongue.php
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/BlackTongueDebate.htm

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thanks for your reply and I stand corrected about the tongue thing, I
> just looked it up, so basically she could be part anything lol!
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how much to feed her, I'm going with a
> very conservative estimate of 50# adult weight right now so I'm
> thinking 1 - 1.5 lbs of chicken a day for now and we'll see how she
> does. That works out roughly to 2 chicken thighs a day + the little
> bit that the older dog leaves over since he's much smaller. Do you
> think this is a good starting point?
>
> Mona
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Mona!
> > Welcome to the raw side! ^_^
> >
> > My response will be even longer. ; )
> >
> > btw, some other pure bred dogs have black spots on their tongues, so
> > Bella doesn't necessarily have to be part Chow.
> >
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Roxane" roxanegraham@yahoo.com roxanegraham
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

I am just starting my pug on raw. I gave him part of a chicken wing for
his bone. I cut the wing at the joint so he got about a 3 inch piece.
He Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this? Roxane

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

15b. Re: A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

You most likely don't have anything to worry about, but you definitely want
to feed larger and meatier than wings!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Roxane" <roxanegraham@yahoo.com>

I am just starting my pug on raw. I gave him part of a chicken wing for
his bone. I cut the wing at the joint so he got about a 3 inch piece.
He Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this? Roxane

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16a. Re: Poop question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, uh, Hi!
You and your dog are the best judges of what are OK poops,
and what aren't. If she isn't having any trouble 'going', then its OK
by me, too. ; )

Th reason raw fed dogs have smaller, 'better' poops are because raw is
species appropriate. That means that what goes in is more
bioavailable, its easier to digest and the dog gets more nutrients
from what he eats, so there is less waste than from kibble or cooked.

She may indeed be able to digest and absorb more nutrients since
adjusting to eating raw.

Some dogs get softer or looser stools from eating boneless meals, some
from organs, some from different proteins. Some dogs just keep on
keeping on, no matter what they eat. While definitely not a 17lb
terrier, my Bea's poops are pretty much the same no matter what she
eats, bone or no bone, organs or no organs. : )

Adding organs is always OK! Just remember, liver shouldn't be more
than 5% of the total diet. Heart, gizzards and tongue are fed as
meatymeat.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Oh the joys of having such small stools! I am just making sure this
> isn't too small and that I am not just feeding too much bone.
<snip>
> I have added organs to see if her stools would be different and they
> are still pebble like. Is this ok? Thanks!
>

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

17a. Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

Sounds pretty good. I wouldn't worry if you can't find anything else,
but keep your eyes open for hearts, tongue, or spleen (sometimes
called "melts"), especially at Asian markets, but I can also get beef
heart and tongue at other grocery stores. If you want to feed any
heads or whole fish, you'd get eyeballs and other goodies that way.
There are online sources of all kinds of stuff too (www.prey4pets.com

is one).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------